Toowoomba <> Brisbane

[achiruel]

If people in Toowoomba really want a TransLink service, would it be possible to extend the Helidon-terminating 539s to Toowoomba?  Then they will be getting what is at least some form of interurban public transport service rather than express coaches which run privately at a profit.

It would give them similar levels of service to that enjoyed by rail commuters north of Nambour

[petey3801]

Er, did you read my comments in this thread? If you did you'd realise that we are actually in agreement on the point that a regular, daily QR passenger service
is unviable.

You quite obviously didn't read ANY of my post.

I said, and I quote:

the line would be realigned and duplicated purely for freight reasons, with pax reasons a side benefit!!

I don't give a flying you know what if you think a regular/daily QR passenger service to Toowoomba is viable. If the line was upgraded to a 21st Century railway (for FREIGHT reasons) there would be plenty of opportunity to operate a rail passenger service regularly to Toowoomba.

I really don't know why I bother trying anymore... (i've backspaced this part so many times so far, i'll just leave it at this).

[Arnz]

If people in Toowoomba really want a TransLink service, would it be possible to extend the Helidon-terminating 539s to Toowoomba?  Then they will be getting what is at least some form of interurban public transport service rather than express coaches which run privately at a profit.

It would give them similar levels of service to that enjoyed by rail commuters north of Nambour

There used to be the old McCaffertys Beenleigh Station to Surfers Paradise service that was in place pre-GC line in the 1980s.  It was also one of the few services where it was integrated with the old Queensland Railways fares iirc. 

A similar arrangement could be petitioned for in place out of Ipswich (so passengers only transfer once), such as limited stops version of the 539 to cover the major stops for coverage/community purposes.  It is a heavily subsidized service after all, so it's better to cover the major towns on the limited stops 539 service.  The train service to GC and SC do stop at various suburbs/interchange points (such as Petrie, Coopers Plains, Logan and Northgate) along the way, as well as all-stopping after it leaves the major suburban terminus. 

Why should people subsidize a non-stop express coach service (which iirc is the non-subsidised part of the Brisbane-Toowoomba Greyhound service) going 100+k with some coaches having no toilet facilities, a limited number of coaches meet DDA requirements (although very slow to load up), when the government funded train services to the GC and SC has a lot more stops than the express coaches and private operators on the same corridor to GC and SC.

[Gazza]

I think extended 539s is the only service you could argue to be subsidised at this stage....But its a pretty crap service lol.

[#Metro]

I don't give a flying you know what if you think a regular/daily QR passenger service to Toowoomba is viable. If the line was upgraded to a 21st Century railway (for FREIGHT reasons) there would be plenty of opportunity to operate a rail passenger service regularly to Toowoomba.

I really don't know why I bother trying anymore... (i've backspaced this part so many times so far, i'll just leave it at this).

When I think of QR, I think of electric services. Even if there were freight upgrades, you'd probably want electric normal QR trains. The cost to run trains (diesel or electric) would be prohibitive IMHO anyway, certainly for the task at hand, so even if freight somehow did trigger an upgrade, it would not automatically follow that passenger services would be viable.

Clearly the upgrade you refer to would be some kind of tunnel for freight.

Like I have said previously, I agree that the rail option to Toowoomba is an unviable proposition at this time. On this we both agree.

[#Metro]

Why should people subsidize a non-stop express coach service (which iirc is the non-subsidised part of the Brisbane-Toowoomba Greyhound service) going 100+k with some coaches having no toilet facilities, a limited number of coaches meet DDA requirements (although very slow to load up), when the government funded train services to the GC and SC has a lot more stops than the express coaches and private operators on the same corridor to GC and SC.

Ideally I would like to see Toowoomba Regional Council, DTMR, TransLink, the Toowoomba Community and Greyhound all sit down and discuss the merits of a TL link between Brisbane and Toowoomba in lieu of a rail connection. A study should look at the benefits, stakeholders, community feedback and quantify the costs and benefits and timeframes, any issues and potential solutions. It is clear that while a service does exist, the continued calls for rail by all stripes of politicians, petitions and so forth demonstrate that there is some level of demand for integration with the wider TL SEQ network.

Funding can be provided from the TRC and TransLink/DTMR if there is enough community support, TL can negotiate a service level contract with Greyhound, fares can be brought into line with the TL system and so forth.

I appreciate that problems exist. But so do solutions.

[STB]

Why should people subsidize a non-stop express coach service (which iirc is the non-subsidised part of the Brisbane-Toowoomba Greyhound service) going 100+k with some coaches having no toilet facilities, a limited number of coaches meet DDA requirements (although very slow to load up), when the government funded train services to the GC and SC has a lot more stops than the express coaches and private operators on the same corridor to GC and SC.

Ideally I would like to see Toowoomba Regional Council, DTMR, TransLink, the Toowoomba Community and Greyhound all sit down and discuss the merits of a TL link between Brisbane and Toowoomba in lieu of a rail connection. A study should look at the benefits, stakeholders, community feedback and quantify the costs and benefits and timeframes, any issues and potential solutions. It is clear that while a service does exist, the continued calls for rail by all stripes of politicians, petitions and so forth demonstrate that there is some level of demand for integration with the wider TL SEQ network.

Funding can be provided from the TRC and TransLink/DTMR if there is enough community support, TL can negotiate a service level contract with Greyhound, fares can be brought into line with the TL system and so forth.

I appreciate that problems exist. But so do solutions.

That's what you think.  Perhaps a poll so it's not a one man band?

[Arnz]

Why should people subsidize a non-stop express coach service (which iirc is the non-subsidised part of the Brisbane-Toowoomba Greyhound service) going 100+k with some coaches having no toilet facilities, a limited number of coaches meet DDA requirements (although very slow to load up), when the government funded train services to the GC and SC has a lot more stops than the express coaches and private operators on the same corridor to GC and SC.

Ideally I would like to see Toowoomba Regional Council, DTMR, TransLink, the Toowoomba Community and Greyhound all sit down and discuss the merits of a TL link between Brisbane and Toowoomba in lieu of a rail connection. A study should look at the benefits, stakeholders, community feedback and quantify the costs and benefits and timeframes, any issues and potential solutions. It is clear that while a service does exist, the continued calls for rail by all stripes of politicians, petitions and so forth demonstrate that there is some level of demand for integration with the wider TL SEQ network.

Funding can be provided from the TRC and TransLink/DTMR if there is enough community support, TL can negotiate a service level contract with Greyhound, fares can be brought into line with the TL system and so forth.

I appreciate that problems exist. But so do solutions.

But at the same time, solutions like heavily subsidized "express" long distance coaches from start to finish with no stops every hourly or half-hour is something of the "Rocket to my House" or "Express to my stationitis" variety, along with the problems pointed out already.  That applies to both road and rail.   

Don't be surprised if the those from the GC or SC start complaining why isn't there a subsidized "express/rocket" to my house if the solution is to apply "rocket" coaches to my house in Toowoomba, whilst at the same time, the major towns along or nearby the Warrego Highway such as Gatton and Helidon (excluding the towns that require a drive out well out of the highway) start heavily complaining why isn't the bus stopping there. 

As Gazza pointed out, there are also a high amount of local trips along the vast majority of rail and bus routes.

There are problems in Brisbane and SEQ's own backyard to fry first before looking to Toowoomba.

[#Metro]

That's what you think.  Perhaps a poll so it's not a one man band?

Well I think given the debate on this forum, it wouldn't really have support and the poll would fail - but the support in the community is clear, certainly from the newspaper article where every politician supports a rail link and more services, where people have gone out and done up youtube videos for a rail link, where people have gone out and made online petitions for a rail link, where Toowoomba Regional Council's own plans state that they want more services and a rail link, where someone I know at Gatton is complaining to me about the high cost of driving to and from there (and I told them $30 bucks on the bus each way - and they weren't impressed) and actually told me that they want a rail link.

Nevertheless I will do this poll, open tomorrow. There may be a few options I need to think about first.

But at the same time, solutions like heavily subsidized "express" long distance coaches from start to finish with no stops every hourly or half-hour is something of the "Rocket to my House" or "Express to my stationitis" variety, along with the problems pointed out already.  That applies to both road and rail.   

Don't be surprised if the those from the GC or SC start complaining why isn't there a subsidized "express/rocket" to my house if the solution is to apply "rocket" coaches to my house in Toowoomba, whilst at the same time, the major towns along or nearby the Warrego Highway such as Gatton and Helidon (excluding the towns that require a drive out well out of the highway) start heavily complaining why isn't the bus stopping there.

Disagree. Naturally there would be onward car, bus, taxi, bicycle connections. Toowoomba is a 130 000 + strong city, not one suburb. Gold Coast already has a direct and express train service, Sunshine Coast wish they had the same and are actively campaigning for it, so what is wrong with Tooowoomba having a limited stops regular bus in lieu of an express train like SEQ North (Sunshine Coast) and SEQ South (Gold Coast) do, with fares that are in line with the TL system?

Rocket to my house is things like Sunnybank and the Centenary Suburbs where there are a bazillion peak hour only services that have many many variations and are over only a relatively short distance (within 30 km). The link between Toowoomba and Brisbane, is much longer, isn't peak hour only and there are only a limited number of service patterns, as you would expect over such a long distance.

Hardly 'Rocket to my house'. And while it is true that there are problems in SEQ, it is also true that here we have a city that is disconnected from the wider SEQ TL network, and it is also Toowoomba Regional Council that may be willing to chip in. Now Toowoomba Regional Council isn't going to pay for BUZ 230 upgrades and the like in Brisbane.

[Arnz]

That's what you think.  Perhaps a poll so it's not a one man band?

Well I think given the debate on this forum, it wouldn't really have support and the poll would fail - but the support in the community is clear, certainly from the newspaper article where every politician supports a rail link and more services, where people have gone out and done up youtube videos for a rail link, where people have gone out and made online petitions for a rail link, where Toowoomba Regional Council's own plans state that they want more services and a rail link, where someone I know at Gatton is complaining to me about the high cost of driving to and from there (and I told them $30 bucks on the bus each way - and they weren't impressed) and actually told me that they want a rail link.

Nevertheless I will do this poll, open tomorrow. There may be a few options I need to think about first.

But at the same time, solutions like heavily subsidized "express" long distance coaches from start to finish with no stops every hourly or half-hour is something of the "Rocket to my House" or "Express to my stationitis" variety, along with the problems pointed out already.  That applies to both road and rail.   

Don't be surprised if the those from the GC or SC start complaining why isn't there a subsidized "express/rocket" to my house if the solution is to apply "rocket" coaches to my house in Toowoomba, whilst at the same time, the major towns along or nearby the Warrego Highway such as Gatton and Helidon (excluding the towns that require a drive out well out of the highway) start heavily complaining why isn't the bus stopping there.

Disagree. Naturally there would be onward car, bus, taxi, bicycle connections. Toowoomba is a 130 000 + strong city, not one suburb. Gold Coast already has a direct and express train service, Sunshine Coast wish they had the same and are actively campaigning for it, so what is wrong with Tooowoomba having a limited stops regular bus in lieu of an express train like SEQ North (Sunshine Coast) and SEQ South (Gold Coast) do, with fares that are in line with the TL system?

Technically the trains to Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast are not of the "true" express, both trains stop at a number of stops.  Such as Coopers Plains and Loganlea for most Gold Coast train services, and all to Northgate then express to Caboolture (with a stop at Petrie) for Sunshine Coast trains.   Also, to get to the Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast on TransLink requires a change from train to bus at the major interchange station, hardly "direct" at all.

Limited stops to Toowoomba is fine, however a call for a heavily subsidised rocket bus to my house/hotel/office block in Toowoomba is only going to set off precedents and complaints everywhere (Eg why is Queensland subsidising a long distance coach route to a reasonably sized town, people on the GC and SC now demanding subsidised rocket/express straight to my house/office building because Toowoomba has it, and so forth.

[Jonas Jade]

I think that this hypothetical "funding" should be directed to bus services within Toowoomba at first, rather than "intercity" services.

While most people would agree the existing service between Toowoomba and Brisbane is fairly decent, just have a look at the services that exist within Toowoomba, keeping in mind that, as tt has trumpted multiple times, Toowoomba has a population of around 130,000.

http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/b25ac199-603e-406d-8a77-091b0bfe2ede/pdf_toowoomba_timetable.pdf

That's right, they have all the routes on one timetable. And there are no services on Sunday. Or after around 5pm on pretty much every route on Weekdays.

So, this "improvement" between Toowoomba and Brisbane is a bit of a large fancy distraction in comparison to the internal requirements of Toowoomba at this point in time, imo.

And in my searches for this information I have been bomarded with advertisements for $16 fares between Toowoomba-Brisbane which imo is already pretty cheap. fwiw.

EDIT: After clicking the $16 fare link I couldn't actually find any $16 fares to Toowoomba LOL. the cheapest for todayt is $26, and I can get $19 at another time.

I do like demand responsive fares.

[#Metro]

Technically the trains to Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast are not of the "true" express, both trains stop at a number of stops.  Such as Coopers Plains and Loganlea for most Gold Coast train services, and all to Northgate then express to Caboolture (with a stop at Petrie) for Sunshine Coast trains.   Also, to get to the Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast on TransLink requires a change from train to bus at the major interchange station, hardly "direct" at all.

Limited stops to Toowoomba is fine, however a call for a heavily subsidised rocket bus to my house/hotel/office block in Toowoomba is only going to set off precedents and complaints everywhere (Eg why is Queensland subsidising a long distance coach route to a reasonably sized town, people on the GC and SC now demanding subsidised rocket/express straight to my house/office building because Toowoomba has it, and so forth.

I think the precedent has already been set given that Coolangatta and Noosa are equidistant and are under TL fares.

[#Metro]

I think that this hypothetical "funding" should be directed to bus services within Toowoomba at first, rather than "intercity" services.

While most people would agree the existing service between Toowoomba and Brisbane is fairly decent, just have a look at the services that exist within Toowoomba, keeping in mind that, as tt has trumpted multiple times, Toowoomba has a population of around 130,000.

http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/b25ac199-603e-406d-8a77-091b0bfe2ede/pdf_toowoomba_timetable.pdf

Well there are within city requirements, and then there are between city requirements. They're not the same issue.

That's right, they have all the routes on one timetable. And there are no services on Sunday. Or after around 5pm on pretty much every route on Weekdays.

So, this "improvement" between Toowoomba and Brisbane is a bit of a large fancy distraction in comparison to the internal requirements of Toowoomba at this point in time, imo.

Well if you want to start your own thread and debate about services there inside the city bounds, you're more than welcome to, but I'm not here to argue other peoples positions when they can advocate and explore their own.

[Jonas Jade]

I think that this hypothetical "funding" should be directed to bus services within Toowoomba at first, rather than "intercity" services.

While most people would agree the existing service between Toowoomba and Brisbane is fairly decent, just have a look at the services that exist within Toowoomba, keeping in mind that, as tt has trumpted multiple times, Toowoomba has a population of around 130,000.

http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/b25ac199-603e-406d-8a77-091b0bfe2ede/pdf_toowoomba_timetable.pdf

Well there are within city requirements, and then there are between city requirements. They're not the same issue.

Of course there are differing requirements. The same there may be different intercity requirements between different cities. But when it comes to funding, it may well be a linked issue. Especially with governments trying to reign in their "spending and waste" where they can.

So, in a scenario with limited funding available for transport improvements from Toowoomba, you think it would be preferable for the Toowoomba Council to contribute funding to an intercity service instead of redirecting the same funding to improving transport within the city? Keeping in mind currently provided services such as "good" service by Greyhound intercity on Sunday, no service within Toowoomba on Sunday.

Or for Translink to provide some funding for this service instead of using the funding to improving services in areas where the demand is currently not serviced properly.

[Jonas Jade]

I'm just saying. It'd be a good idea to integrate Toowoomba into Translink eventually. And perhaps with that, then the intercity service can naturally come under the banner. Along with using the "on the way" corridor for some of the population growth.

But there are other things that should be looked at for that region first as a much higher priority, considering the intercity service already exists, and fairly decent pricing range for the trip can be found. (some people just might priced out for certain trips because of demand.)

Just my opinion.

[Fares_Fair]

Need to bear in mind that currently this is one of the largest public transport systems in the world, about 10,000 sq.km from memory.

[Mr X]

I think the precedent has already been set given that Coolangatta and Noosa are equidistant and are under TL fares.

No it hasn't.
I said this again- there is a very big difference between the importance of the Gold Coast and the importance of Toowoomba to Brisbane. We see very high rates of transit between the Gold Coast and Brisbane. In fact it's almost one urban area- once you leave Brisbane you are pretty much immediately in Logan/Beenleigh, and after that there is a mighty thin 5km break before you hit the northernmost suburbs of the Gold Coast. It makes absolute sense to have a highly frequent service connecting the two.

On the Toowoomba way, it's urban until Ipswich, when really we only have smaller towns and large green spaces until we reach Toowoomba. It isn't even geographically within SEQ, it's in the Darling Downs. Do they deserve a bus service? Yes. Does one exist? Yes. So why does the government need to reinvent the wheel and give them another?

I am really sick and tired of you trying to compare apples with oranges and trying to make out that it's a valid comparison.

[Gazza]

Technically the trains to Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast are not of the "true" express, both trains stop at a number of stops.  Such as Coopers Plains and Loganlea for most Gold Coast train services, and all to Northgate then express to Caboolture (with a stop at Petrie) for Sunshine Coast trains.   Also, to get to the Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast on TransLink requires a change from train to bus at the major interchange station, hardly "direct" at all.

Limited stops to Toowoomba is fine, however a call for a heavily subsidised rocket bus to my house/hotel/office block in Toowoomba is only going to set off precedents and complaints everywhere (Eg why is Queensland subsidising a long distance coach route to a reasonably sized town, people on the GC and SC now demanding subsidised rocket/express straight to my house/office building because Toowoomba has it, and so forth.

I think the precedent has already been set given that Coolangatta and Noosa are equidistant and are under TL fares.

The urban environment is not the same, and there are not non stop/express services from either Cooloongatta, or Noosa.

[Fares_Fair]

For the record.
Gold Coast Zone 16 is Varsity Lakes, the current extent of the Gold Coast rail under the Go card fare system.
Sunshine Coast Zone 16 is Palmwoods/Woombye (2 and 1 stations before Nambour respectively), and well shy of Noosa which is located approx. between Zone 22 Cooroy or Zone 23 Pomona.

[#Metro]

I'm just saying. It'd be a good idea to integrate Toowoomba into Translink eventually. And perhaps with that, then the intercity service can naturally come under the banner. Along with using the "on the way" corridor for some of the population growth.

But there are other things that should be looked at for that region first as a much higher priority, considering the intercity service already exists, and fairly decent pricing range for the trip can be found. (some people just might priced out for certain trips because of demand.)

Just my opinion.

I actually think this is a very valid point, though one that Toowoomba Regional Council would have to decide upon as they'd be the ones chipping in.

[#Metro]

Need to bear in mind that currently this is one of the largest public transport systems in the world, about 10,000 sq.km from memory.

I think this is a reflection of how decentralised (in terms of urban form) the SEQ corner is.

I said this again- there is a very big difference between the importance of the Gold Coast and the importance of Toowoomba to Brisbane. We see very high rates of transit between the Gold Coast and Brisbane. In fact it's almost one urban area- once you leave Brisbane you are pretty much immediately in Logan/Beenleigh, and after that there is a mighty thin 5km break before you hit the northernmost suburbs of the Gold Coast. It makes absolute sense to have a highly frequent service connecting the two.

On the Toowoomba way, it's urban until Ipswich, when really we only have smaller towns and large green spaces until we reach Toowoomba. It isn't even geographically within SEQ, it's in the Darling Downs. Do they deserve a bus service? Yes. Does one exist? Yes. So why does the government need to reinvent the wheel and give them another?

I am really sick and tired of you trying to compare apples with oranges and trying to make out that it's a valid comparison.

We can agree to disagree and that's fine. I don't like many things that others propose, and I'm sure other's don't like some of my discussions and explorations. For example, I think HSR in Australia in the next 15 years is complete and utter foam. But the debate is useful nonetheless because everyone can bring something to the table. It's just a forum, and our official positions are in the media releases not in the forum threads.

Coolangatta is in zone 18, this is 103 km by road (source:Whereis.com)
http://jp.translink.com.au/travel-information/network-information/stops-and-stations/stop/300219

Noosa is in zone 23, this is 138 km by road (whereis)
http://jp.translink.com.au/travel-information/network-information/stops-and-stations/stop/301498

Toowoomba is 124 km, could be placed anywhere between zone 18 and 23. (whereis)

[#Metro]

Two polls, as promised:

1. General review of Transport options (road, rail, bicycle, bus, taxi, existing services etc)
---> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=8489.0

2. Specific question about a TransLink service between Toowoomba and Brisbane.
---> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=8490.0

Poll results will be visible in 7 days.

[verbatim9]

Barnaby Joyce was quoted on Abc24 by saying that Roads and Transport very important for the Nationals and regional centres. I wonder if he will support dual guage electrified rail to Gatton/Toowoomba? (Two tracks)

He was also quoted on saying he wants more freight on rail and off the roads. I think we all agree with that 🚈

[ozbob]

Truss has been uttering the same platitudes for 15 years as well.  Nothing will really change in reality.

[SurfRail]

Why does it have to be electrified?  There seems to be zero point to it - intermodal operators aren't going to have a fleet of electric locos just to do the Queensland bit.

[OzGamer]

Why does it have to be electrified?  There seems to be zero point to it - intermodal operators aren't going to have a fleet of electric locos just to do the Queensland bit.

I agree. While it definitely needs to be dual gauge, apparently overhead wires are not possible as they would prevent double stacking of containers. However, there's no reason you couldn't run 160km/hr narrow gauge passenger DMUs along there.

[red dragin]

DMU Ipswich to Toowoomba (if the paths are available). DMU would probably costs less than the required overhead would to install.

[dancingmongoose]

It probably shouldn't be electrified, as that can prevent double stacked containers. Run a DMU or a BEMU (although a 2000 class would be nice).

Aside from one section from Grandchester to Yarongmulu, it's double track already until beyond Helidon. It'll be dual guaged in the Inland Rail upgrade, and the single track section will be bypassed.

I have heard that some Rosewood residents are starting to call for a train service into the Lockyer Valley again due to a large number of people driving in and parking at Rosewood and not using the railbus. Probably wouldn't hurt to experiment with a Gympie North style service out that way, we just don't have the rollingstock. It'd need to be diesel hauled if we started today.

[#Metro]

How fast would train be vs bus?

[OzGamer]

It probably shouldn't be electrified, as that can prevent double stacked containers. Run a DMU or a BEMU (although a 2000 class would be nice).

Aside from one section from Grandchester to Yarongmulu, it's double track already until beyond Helidon. It'll be dual guaged in the Inland Rail upgrade, and the single track section will be bypassed.

I have heard that some Rosewood residents are starting to call for a train service into the Lockyer Valley again due to a large number of people driving in and parking at Rosewood and not using the railbus. Probably wouldn't hurt to experiment with a Gympie North style service out that way, we just don't have the rollingstock. It'd need to be diesel hauled if we started today.

The problem with commuter services west of Rosewood is that, apart from lacking overhead, the track starts becoming absurdly winding and slow. The Westlander timetable shows half an hour from Rosewood to Laidley, making it a very unattractive prospect for a commuter service.

[ozbob]

Speed is not the only consideration.  Safety, and be able to get out of congestion are also factors.

The rail motors to Laidley and Helidon were great services -with bus connections up the range to Toowoomba.

It is a changing demographic out along the line now. 

[verbatim9]

Its possible to run double stacked trains under catenary
http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/14928

[Gazza]

Speed is not the only consideration.  Safety, and be able to get out of congestion are also factors.

The rail motors to Laidley and Helidon were great services -with bus connections up the range to Toowoomba.

It is a changing demographic out along the line now.

Congestion on the Warrego?

[aldonius]

On standard gauge it is possible to double-stack under catenary. Narrow gauge may be a different matter - I don't know if anyone's even tried it, actually.

[SurfRail]

Regardless of structure gauge, the southern corridor via Kagaru involves tunnelling.  You aren't going to see tunnels built to a wider clearance just for wires when the wires will only ever reach Toowoomba at best.  There is certainly not going to be any more electrification on the current alignment west of Rosewood either.

It really doesn't matter that there will be diesel traction west of Rosewood, for passenger or freight.  The important thing is that the traffic is on the rails.

[ozbob]

Speed is not the only consideration.  Safety, and be able to get out of congestion are also factors.

The rail motors to Laidley and Helidon were great services -with bus connections up the range to Toowoomba.

It is a changing demographic out along the line now.

Congestion on the Warrego?

Yep, growing issue.

[OzGamer]

On standard gauge it is possible to double-stack under catenary. Narrow gauge may be a different matter - I don't know if anyone's even tried it, actually.

I don't know if it's true, but I read that double stacking is impossible on narrow gauge full stop. However, QR has often surprised with what it can achieve on narrow gauge.

[SurfRail]

Not much point in double-stacking on QR's internal network though.  Double stacking is only likely to be useful on intermodal traffic on the NCL, and it can't fit under the existing wires or through any tunnels.

To fix the issue you would need to do exactly the kind of rebuilding that the NCL upgrade would involve except over a greater geographical area. 

You just need to fix the NCL to Nambour and reconfigure loops and passing lanes north of there.  Then, you could just run 1,800m trains and more frequently than the current stunted ones, without having to play with several hundred km of OHLE, bridges and other clearance issues.

[verbatim9]

Initially I was only referring to a new improved line from Toowoomba to Rosewood with raised catenary for double stack freight, as well as an electrified line out to Port of Brisbane. I think electrification is important for future clean development. Plus the chance to link Toowoomba up as a regional satelitte city easily accessbile by electric train similar to the townships in the Bluemountains linked to Syd with an electric service. "Yes all dual guage track". 👍🚆 (We are only talking about 80km of track to electrify and duplicate from Rosewood.) + some new tunnelling.

[SurfRail]

Depends on the extent of tunnelling required I suppose.  The route is yet to be locked in but there is some tunnelling no matter what.  The route is meant to be set up for double stacking anyway, so leaving a marginal clearance may not be much to ask.

Kagaru is definitely going to be diesel only, no doubts about that.