Cross River Rail Project

[#Metro]

Courier-Mail head office entrance ----> here!

[Golliwog]

I think eventually smaller entrances are the way to go, but the thing is even the busy tube stations/Paris metro stations have somehting like half a dozen of the little stairwells. Also the difference with Brisbane is that all our CBD buildings have carparking beneath them, because that what was expected when thye were built, so theres little point in having multiple smaller entrances connected by underground pedestrian tunnels seeing as ultimately unless you go knocking out the basements of a whole bunch of buildings, they are only going to end up following the pedestrian footpath on the road above.

[frereOP]

A busy CBD train station needs bigger entrances to get huge volumes of people in and out - not a mere stairwell or two.

No, these façades are ego-stroking edifices for politicians.  Remember how Can-do Campbell was sprucing the "modern" tunnel entrance designs that reflect Brisbane's style for the Clem-7 rather than having a concrete hole?  What stations need is more entrances, not bigger ones.  Ever been to Singapore and ridden the MRT?  A modern metro system but with many small entrances to large underground concourses with very few ego-fulfilling edifices - and it works beautifully!

[#Metro]

Look, we can argue about entrances. I just want one big one. That's how you get retail etc in there. You are never going to get that if you only have a stuffy hole entrances. And how is the Paris Metro on a warm day? I've heard its stuffy, hot and yucky. The busway station under Queen St has these kind of hole entrances. Most people IMHO prefer to walk in via the Ground level shopping centre entrance. Much more pleasant.

It seems unlikely that today's government will be around when CRR will open. I find the ego boost argument unconvincing.
Things have to look presentable. Courier Mail just wanted to publish a beat up.

[O_128]

Considering that Brisbane doesnt have a WOW station like Sydney and Melbourne I'm all for it, Has no one actually seen how a metro is built?

The stations have to be dug down to its a huge job, Personally woolongabba is my favorite with the cool open shaft and banners down the walls and Roma street is due for a huge upgrade with a southern cross style roof and the front of the transit centre thoroughly modernized. There are already rumors of a tower to go on top of Albert street station however. Plus how many of these metro stations in paris are DDA compliant hmmm

[Golliwog]

There aren't disabled people in Paris... at least that seems to be how they treat the situation.

I think eventually we're going to need to also have the little stairwell entrances, however I don't think those are worth worrying about to begin with, they can be added in at hte surface later. The sole reason for having single massive entrances is because you need to clear that space to dig down under it, and yes, many of the cleared spaces have ideas in the reference design of how they can incorporate buildings on top of them, or next to them. I particularly like the ideas for Roma St and Albert St, though I'm at a bit of a loss as Albert St has 2 entrances, yet they seem to only want to build on top of one. And I also agree with how awesome looking the Woolongabba open shaft is, especially with the banners.

[somebody]

Definitely agree with TT's comments about QSBS, so long as he is referring to platforms B & C.  Platform A is quite easy to get to.

[mufreight]

Courier-Mail head office entrance ----> here!

I know I am possibly a little slow but how is the Courier Mail building relevant, to start with it is above ground not underground.
Many underground rail systems have been constructed in recent years, including stations from a single portal without disturbance to the existing structures above them other than for actual station entrance access

[Golliwog]

Many underground rail systems have been constructed in recent years, including stations from a single portal without disturbance to the existing structures above them other than for actual station entrance access

It can be done, but its more time consuming. Why else do you think they intend on using 4 TBMs (2 launched from Yeerongpilly and 2 from Woolonggabba) instead of just 2 doing the whole run?

Can you give examples of these other underground rail constructions though? Im interested.

[frereOP]

Considering that Brisbane doesnt have a WOW station like Sydney and Melbourne I'm all for it,

Okay, lets have a WOW station but lets make it Roma St which is the interstate terminal.  We don't need edifices in the 'burbs.

Plus how many of these metro stations in paris are DDA compliant hmmm

Forget about Paris Metro or The Tube.  I've ridden extensively on both.  The best example is the SMRT in Singapore where the edifices are large retail and shopping centres above the station.  Best examples are Dhoby Ghaut, and the other stations along Orchard Rd as well as Harbourfront.  And they are very modern DDA compliant stations with multiple unpretentious (but obvious) entrances.

[O_128]

Boggo road is quite low key but remember the main underground stations are all city stations

[somebody]

Okay, lets have a WOW station but lets make it Roma St which is the interstate terminal.  We don't need edifices in the 'burbs.

I'd favour Albert St.

Roma St isn't very impressive.

[Stillwater]

Must be a few undiscovered hand-built tunnels beneath Boggo Road that could be put to good use.   

Roma Street the obvious 'wow' station.  It could get the Southern Cross treatment easily and effectively.  I am thinking of staying at the Holiday Inn at the end of one of my rare 'nights on the town' -- just to see what long distance travellers experience as they reach the end of the line after a long-haul on Queensland Rail, or put themselves up in preparation for one.

[frereOP]

Boggo road is quite low key but remember the main underground stations are all city stations

I'm not sure what this is about but "Boggo Rd" is a Busway Station.  The railway station - which are on the other platforms - is Park Rd.

[O_128]

Boggo road is quite low key but remember the main underground stations are all city stations

I'm not sure what this is about but "Boggo Rd" is a Busway Station.  The railway station - which are on the other platforms - is Park Rd.

I'm tlking about the crr station which will be called boggo road,

[Stillwater]

Read somewhere where Park Road to become 'Boggo Road', just as Brunswick Street has become Fortitude Valley and Vulture Streeet now Southbank.

[Golliwog]

Read somewhere where Park Road to become 'Boggo Road', just as Brunswick Street has become Fortitude Valley and Vulture Streeet now Southbank.

Last I heard they went to the community to get their opinion. Community wanted to keep it as it is, so they did.

[Stillwater]

Thanks for the update.

[SteelPan]

Re Sweetman Column of 19 Nov:  Spot on this article, I have long questioned who the amateurs are, who design so much Brisbane infrastructure - I also ask why does an UNDERGROUND train station, require an above-ground physical footprint to rival King Kong - and yes, those King George Sq bus station entry points are a shocker - most cities - which generations ago developed what "Brissy" is still dreaming of - did it by cutting a couple of doorways into building basements - and the people pour in and out!   

[frereOP]

Re Sweetman Column of 19 Nov:  Spot on this article, I have long questioned who the amateurs are, who design so much Brisbane infrastructure - I also ask why does an UNDERGROUND train station, require an above-ground physical footprint to rival King Kong - and yes, those King George Sq bus station entry points are a shocker - most cities - which generations ago developed what "Brissy" is still dreaming of - did it by cutting a couple of doorways into building basements - and the people pour in and out!   

Politicians NEED these edifices to remind people that they are actually doing something.  A massive underground station is little use to those people who can't see it and there are no votes in that!

[Gazza]

Re Sweetman Column of 19 Nov:  Spot on this article, I have long questioned who the amateurs are, who design so much Brisbane infrastructure - I also ask why does an UNDERGROUND train station, require an above-ground physical footprint to rival King Kong - and yes, those King George Sq bus station entry points are a shocker - most cities - which generations ago developed what "Brissy" is still dreaming of - did it by cutting a couple of doorways into building basements - and the people pour in and out!   

I reckon KGSs entrances look sexy, I wouldn't change them!

I think the reason why you put a nice entrance building is for wayfinding....Makes it easier to spot the station basically. Plus it's not like Brisbane is alone, most new lines tend to put a decent building at the entrance:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e1/Canada_Water_station_building.JPG/800px-Canada_Water_station_building.JPG


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8e/Canary_Wharf_Tube_Station_-_July_2009.jpg/769px-Canary_Wharf_Tube_Station_-_July_2009.jpg


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/93/Vermont-Santa_Monica_Station_LACMTA.jpg/800px-Vermont-Santa_Monica_Station_LACMTA.jpg


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c2/North_Ryde_station_entrance.jpg/634px-North_Ryde_station_entrance.jpg

[#Metro]

CM article is just a beat up.
CENTRAL STATION- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Brisbanecentraltower020606.JPG

For its time, central station would have been a grandiose, lavish piece of architecture. The same could be said for Brisbane's treasury buildings and customs house. Central Station, Sydney is much the same.

The simple reality is, if you are going to put in infrastructure that is going to be around for 100+ years, you had darned be sure the entrance looks good. And certainly if it is in the CBD!

[frereOP]

The simple reality is, if you are going to put in infrastructure that is going to be around for 100+ years, you had darned be sure the entrance looks good. And certainly if it is in the CBD!

Functional elegance is what is needed.  I'm not against a grandiose signature building and Roma St is hardly that (its down right ugly really) but not for every new station.  Albert St doesn't warrant the Sydney Central, Gare du Norde, Kings Cross St Pancrass treatment.

[Gazza]

But it is a CBD station and will get very heavy usage owing to the fact it's next to a university and a government precinct. If the other two CBD stations and the busway station look nice then this one should too.....Not as if it's some piddling suburban station.

[Golliwog]

In a way, I also think the days of little stairwell entrances are gone. Most places need to be DDA compliant and so provide lifts, and you're not going to waste money putting one lift in to get from the platform up to the upper concourse, then have a couple of others going that one floor extra up to the surface in 3 or 4 different locations. Also, whats with everyones massive obsession with escalators? Is it really that hard to take the stairs? You would have added capacity as you wouldn't be wasting space with the expansive handrails that go with most of them.

[#Metro]

Also, whats with everyones massive obsession with escalators? Is it really that hard to take the stairs? You would have added capacity as you wouldn't be wasting space with the expansive handrails that go with most of them.

How deep are these stations? I've noticed about 3 levels of escalators in the CRR plans, stairs would just not cut it.

[Jonno]

Read somewhere where Park Road to become 'Boggo Road', just as Brunswick Street has become Fortitude Valley and Vulture Streeet now Southbank.

Last I heard they went to the community to get their opinion. Community wanted to keep it as it is, so they did.

I think it is crazy that the bus station is called Boggo Road but the same station for rail is Park Road.  TL and the Government are not really trying to attract casual users are they!

[somebody]

Even Central has escalators, and 4 per island.  What's the problem with providing escalators?  Also Roma St & FV, but 1/island there.

I think it is crazy that the bus station is called Boggo Road but the same station for rail is Park Road.  TL and the Government are not really trying to attract casual users are they!

Yes, they should change the busway station to match the train station.  What sort of a name is "Boggo"!?

[#Metro]

Yes, they should change the busway station to match the train station.  What sort of a name is "Boggo"!?

It sounds like some swamp marsh or slang for toilet.
The name should be changed. It sounds horrible.

[ozbob]

The original road in the area was regularly bogged, and it became known as 'boggo' ...

[Stillwater]

And synonymous with the old gaol that was there.  When naughty as a child, my parents told me I would have to mend my ways, or i'd end up in 'Boggo Road'.  Maybe that association has turned people off a station name change at Park Road.  (For the record -- never an inmate of Boggo Road.)

[ozbob]

See --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=2356.msg11507#msg11507

Interesting thread on the Proposed Park Road rail name change ..

[Golliwog]

Even Central has escalators, and 4 per island.  What's the problem with providing escalators?  Also Roma St & FV, but 1/island there.

I think it is crazy that the bus station is called Boggo Road but the same station for rail is Park Road.  TL and the Government are not really trying to attract casual users are they!

Yes, they should change the busway station to match the train station.  What sort of a name is "Boggo"!?

Also wrt TT's post, I was mostly thinking about non-CRR stations having escalator, the current CBD stations being key examples. Why do they need escalators? Its a whole one floor up/down, and if you put in stairs instead there would be more space for people to walk up and might help get rid of the crowds of people lining up in the morning peak after disembarking.

Considering the depth of the CRR stations I understand the need for escalators to get down, but some of the designs were showing escalators being put in to go between the platforms and the lower concourse, a whole floor above. They really don't need it, its a waste of sapce and electricity. If you can't walk up one flight of stairs then use the lift.

[Gazza]

I was always under the impression that escalators were higher capacity than stairs because they pump people through at a constant rate, if they enforce the keep left rule (or keep right if you're in London), even moreso.
The main issue with the CBD stations is that the escalators are too narrow, and they should ideally be in a 2+1 arrangement.

Normal stairs can get congested due to unfit people and people walking on the wrong side.

but some of the designs were showing escalators being put in to go between the platforms and the lower concourse, a whole floor above.

No different to a two level shopping centre with an escalator.
I personally like having them, and in the context of a multi billion dollar project deleting them won't save much money. On another note, what modern underground railway has been built without escalators recently?

[SteelPan]

Re Sweetman Column of 19 Nov:  Spot on this article, I have long questioned who the amateurs are, who design so much Brisbane infrastructure - I also ask why does an UNDERGROUND train station, require an above-ground physical footprint to rival King Kong - and yes, those King George Sq bus station entry points are a shocker - most cities - which generations ago developed what "Brissy" is still dreaming of - did it by cutting a couple of doorways into building basements - and the people pour in and out!  

I reckon KGSs entrances look sexy, I wouldn't change them!


Sticking up huge structures - which look like, architecture mated with Frankenstien, is not relevant, nor does it add anything, to any city, anywhere - how can it - the ENTIRE idea of an underground, is to remove the physical impact and pressure of a rail system from a (usually) highly developed region - informing the would be passenger of a station location requires quality of signage which is a totally separate matter!

Take for example, the St James Station entrance, just off Hyde Park, opposite DJ's in Sydney, you can't miss it - yet it is appropriately discrete.  It has atmopsphere and blends well with its surroundings - the KGS Bus Station entry points and what's proposed for Albert St - stand out like set of dogs .....

[Gazza]

the ENTIRE idea of an underground, is to remove the physical impact and pressure of a rail system from a (usually) highly developed region - informing the would be passenger of a station location requires quality of signage which is a totally separate matter!

The idea of building underground is actually because the need exists to provide the transport route, but there is too much stuff in the way to make it possible or no corridor exists. If they could get away with building CRR above ground and save billions, they would. Nothing wrong with making the station entrances look nice, as you'd do with any other above ground building.

Those two portals occupy only 430sqm or so at out of a 7200 sqm open space so they hardly take up much space, and they do work pretty nicely as sculptural objects that frame either side of the square as you approach off the Albert St Mall. Furthermore, a hole in the ground with stairs and escalators wide enough to handle pax loads is going to take up the the same amount of space whether or not it has entrance buildings....people cant walk on a void!

Here's a pic I found of St James.


The size of that portal building seems no smaller than the ones at KGS.

Thing is, the hole in the ground type entrances aren't going to happen any more since you'd want to keep the stairs and escalators dry from the rain. So if you're going to cover it up you might as well do something good.
I'd also argue that the KGS entrances do fit in pretty well with the KGS redevelopment, particularly in material usage. Trying to emulate something neo-classical to go in with city hall would just look silly.

[frereOP]

And synonymous with the old gaol that was there.  When naughty as a child, my parents told me I would have to mend my ways, or i'd end up in 'Boggo Road'.  Maybe that association has turned people off a station name change at Park Road.  (For the record -- never an inmate of Boggo Road.)

I support the name Boggo Rd.  It has immense historical significance and it perfectly describes where the station is.  Boggo Rd Gaol is a notorious place and is still there.  Indeed, while the gaol has been decommissioned, my wife - who works for CSIRO  has become a Boggo Rd "inmate" having recently moved into the Qld Ecosciences Precinct next door.  "Park Road" could be anywhere and indeed, has some great restaurants just a few minutes walk from Milton Station (said with tongue in cheek!)

[somebody]

Here's a pic I found of St James.

The size of that portal building seems no smaller than the ones at KGS.

I think it is smaller, and less imposing.  Even if you count the cafe on the left.

[Cam]

The photo of the entrance to St James Station posted by Gazza reminds me of an incident in the 90's when someone thought it was an entrance to an underground car park & partially drove down the stairs. The video footage of the car on the stairs was shown on the news.

[mufreight]

And synonymous with the old gaol that was there.  When naughty as a child, my parents told me I would have to mend my ways, or i'd end up in 'Boggo Road'.  Maybe that association has turned people off a station name change at Park Road.  (For the record -- never an inmate of Boggo Road.)

I support the name Boggo Rd.  It has immense historical significance and it perfectly describes where the station is.  Boggo Rd Gaol is a notorious place and is still there.  Indeed, while the gaol has been decommissioned, my wife - who works for CSIRO  has become a Boggo Rd "inmate" having recently moved into the Qld Ecosciences Precinct next door.  "Park Road" could be anywhere and indeed, has some great restaurants just a few minutes walk from Milton Station (said with tongue in cheek!)

What benefit is there to be gained by the name change, when Translink attempted to exert its authority to spend QR's money to change the name previously they ended up taking a bath on the idea with better than 80% of those responding to the name change being most verhment in their oposition.  Forget it the residents dont want the name changed and it is of note that many who use the bus to the Boggo Rd bus station to transfer to the train refer to the bus station as PARK ROAD when purchasing a ticket or inquiring of the driver if the bus goes to PARK ROAD there has to be a message there.