Cross River Rail Project

[Golliwog]

Actually, if you zoom in, it looks like they're putting in some cross overs between the FG flyover and the new flyover, so trains on the mains at Northgate will use CRR, those on the suburbans will use them until just past CRR where they will switch to the mains and trains from FG plus Trouts Rd can use the suburbans through the CBD. Thats of course assuming thats what all the dashes are.

[somebody]

Demolishing the current 2 platforms at Yeerongpilly seems to be the only reason for the 4 new platforms.

Yeerongpilly terminators do not make much sense.  Far better IMO to extend to Corinda and give Tennyson a full time service, and also improve the connectivity of the network.

Also, why is there a need for 3 southbound tracks away from Yeerongpilly, not counting the DG.  I mean, one running on the south side of Moorooka station, one between the station and Clapham Yards, and the third through the station?  Or have I read the map wrong?

To answer my own question here, I think it could be for stabling bound services.

Actually, if you zoom in, it looks like they're putting in some cross overs between the FG flyover and the new flyover, so trains on the mains at Northgate will use CRR, those on the suburbans will use them until just past CRR where they will switch to the mains and trains from FG plus Trouts Rd can use the suburbans through the CBD. Thats of course assuming thats what all the dashes are.

Yes, Ok.  I didn't check that one thoroughly.  So the current northern suburbans at Albion will attach to the mains at Bowen Hills, and the mains at Albion will attach to CRR1.  And the suburbans at Bowen Hills will attach to the FG line.

I really don't see the need to mess that much with the configurations though.  It would also require a large amount of messing with the line pairings.  Why not just have the blue bridge end in between the up & down suburbans?  Ipswich-Airport is a nice line pairing IMO, but not really worth all that expense.

[Derwan]

Actually, if you zoom in, it looks like they're putting in some cross overs between the FG flyover and the new flyover, so trains on the mains at Northgate will use CRR, those on the suburbans will use them until just past CRR where they will switch to the mains and trains from FG plus Trouts Rd can use the suburbans through the CBD. Thats of course assuming thats what all the dashes are.

Trains on the suburbans can already cross to the mains just before the flyover at Bowen Hills - or just after the flyover.  (There are already two crossovers in place from suburbans to mains.)

Trains from the Ferny Grove line can cross to the mains at Bowen Hills using the latter of the two crossovers.

[somebody]

Trains on the suburbans can already cross to the mains just before the flyover at Bowen Hills - or just after the flyover.  (There are already two crossovers in place from suburbans to mains.)

Trains from the Ferny Grove line can cross to the mains at Bowen Hills using the latter of the two crossovers.

That may be, but these moves are conflicting.

[Golliwog]

I didn't know there were crossovers there already, but I don't travel on that part of the network at all really (I use the FG line). I have noticed that in many cases in the reference design they've but the red lines down for new track almost over the top of the current tracks so my understanding is they are just realigning a bunch of it to put in the new lines. It also makes it hard to see whats originaly there on the map.

Also, somebody, when I said that CRR was attaching to the Mains for capacity reasons, I should have been a bit clearer. What I meant was it would be better to have the 9 car trains on the line with the largest catchment area to make it feasible. You wouldn't run 9-cars to Doomben would you?

[somebody]

Also, somebody, when I said that CRR was attaching to the Mains for capacity reasons, I should have been a bit clearer. What I meant was it would be better to have the 9 car trains on the line with the largest catchment area to make it feasible. You wouldn't run 9-cars to Doomben would you?

I did understand that.  I'm not sure where on the north side you would run the 9 car trains.  At least if they went to the Airport then there would only be a couple of stations requiring platform lengthening.  And the Airport is easiest to attach to the suburbans.

[mufreight]

Also, somebody, when I said that CRR was attaching to the Mains for capacity reasons, I should have been a bit clearer. What I meant was it would be better to have the 9 car trains on the line with the largest catchment area to make it feasible. You wouldn't run 9-cars to Doomben would you?

I did understand that.  I'm not sure where on the north side you would run the 9 car trains.  At least if they went to the Airport then there would only be a couple of stations requiring platform lengthening.  And the Airport is easiest to attach to the suburbans.

And the loadings on the Airport line would have little need for the capacity of a 9 car train set,
again money and equipment that will prove more cost productive expended elsewhere on the system.

[somebody]

And the loadings on the Airport line would have little need for the capacity of a 9 car train set,
again money and equipment that will prove more cost productive expended elsewhere on the system.

No kidding.

But sending those trains anywhere else requires a large number of platforms to be extended, and there really isn't anywhere else where I would advocate 9 car trains besides the Gold Coast line.  The best alternative would be having them stop EJ/Northgate/Petrie all to Caboolture.  At least that is only 8 or so platforms to extend, but if you use the Airport line then it is only 3.

Your alternative is keeping 6 car trains, I would imagine.  It seems obvious that a 15 minute peak frequency will not be adequate in 2020 with 6 car trains.  I cringe at the waste of paths that so many trains (19tph in 2026 in the ICRCS) from the Gold Coast would represent, while doing little to improve the attractiveness of the line.  You also need a lot of upgrades on the Beenleigh line to allow for even 10 minute frequency.  It's all too hard, not worth the bucks IMO.

[Derwan]

Just curious, with all the plans in SEQ 2031 such as the Trouts Rd Corridor, Beaudesert and the North Shore Line that is currently being discussed here, will an extra 1 track each way through the city be enough?  Should we at least be provisioning for more capacity through the tunnels?  (Larger boring machines to create tunnels large enough to accommodate 2 tracks, enough room at the underground stations to build another 2 platforms, etc.)

If the capacity on the current lines is going to be exhausted by 2016, imagine what will happen when we start building additional lines!

[Golliwog]

I too am interested to see if there are any provisions in CRR1 to allow it to be easily duplicated, ie: without the need to bore another set of tunnels. I do think though that not all new lines will be going to the city. IMO we need to try and put in some webbing.

[mufreight]

Depending on the junction arrangements and signalling each of the new tracks will have a capacity of 20tph so with the two tracks that gives a potential additional 40 services an hour through the CBD without having to resort to dual platforms or additional tracks, yes lets make provision for additional infrastructure for future expansion by all means but there is little point in overcooking the cake now and having it cost beyond the expenditure needed to resolve the existing problems and thus making it unaffordable to the point that nothing is done now or for the next 20 years.

[somebody]

Depending on the junction arrangements and signalling each of the new tracks will have a capacity of 20tph so with the two tracks that gives a potential additional 40 services an hour through the CBD without having to resort to dual platforms or additional tracks, yes lets make provision for additional infrastructure for future expansion by all means but there is little point in overcooking the cake now and having it cost beyond the expenditure needed to resolve the existing problems and thus making it unaffordable to the point that nothing is done now or for the next 20 years.

And 9 car platforms or bifurcation would add $ to the cost.  I guess the question is: how much?  I still think the 9 car trains are the go for the Gold Coast trains.  At current rates of growth, there would need to be an insane frequency soon.  The question would be: when and if will the growth slow down?

[BrizCommuter]

BrizCommuter went along to the CRR display in King George Square today, and was not amused by the 2016 service forecasts.
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2010/11/cross-river-rail-service-forecast.html

[ozbob]

Forecasts are delusional.  Many changes before then (possibly a government) which will result in much better frequency than that.

External factors such as congestion and fuel costs will also force much better actual performance increases than what some old thinking in transport bureaucracies believes, IMHO.

[Cam]

BrizCommuter went along to the CRR display in King George Square today, and was not amused by the 2016 service forecasts.
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2010/11/cross-river-rail-service-forecast.html

BrizCommuter, thanks for the info.

I think that there may be a typo below as 3 x 8 = 24.

Mains from South - 18tph:
Springfield - 8tph
Ipswich - 8tph
Rosewood - 8tph

[ozbob]

From the Brisbanetimes click here!

Subway, sewers signify 'new world city'

Subway, sewers signify 'new world city'
Tony Moore
November 16, 2010 - 2:21PM

An underground mass transit system is as necessary to Brisbane as flushing toilets, according to a New York planning specialist.

Robert Yaro, who is president of Regional Plan Association, the United States' oldest independent urban planning authority, said an improved rail network was fundamental to the city's growth.

He said projects such as Queensland government's proposed Cross River Rail would help to attract workforces to state's capital with "bright entrepreneurial people who drive innovation and new industry creation".

"It is kind of like flush toilets. If a country doesn't have that, probably folks are going to go somewhere else," he said yesterday at the "City of the Future" conference at Queensland Parliament.

A member of New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg's Sustainability Advisory Board, Mr Yaro said for Brisbane had some work to do to be truly considered a 'new world city'.

"Cities have to ask themselves, 'What do you want to be when you grow up?'," he said.

"World cities have transit systems, it is that simple."

The draft plan for the Cross River Rail project was released earlier this year and includes underground stations at Albert Street and Roma Street in the CBD, and at Woolloongabba and Boggo Road.

Mr Yaro said the expansion could be achieved through a public private partnership.

About 80 years ago, New York successfully used the private sector to expand its central rail station and transform rail yards into a commercial precinct.

"A flying freehold development over the yards created the most valuable urban development project in the world," he said.

The idea of using the private sector to develop the Brisbane's Cross River Rail project's planned $100 million underground stations has been raised.

Mr Yaro said the approach had been successfully used in cities around the world, including Hong Kong recently.

"The real issue is whether the private sector will take on the construction cost risk and the market risk," he said.

He said this was because the returns on investment came in stages.

"Usually it takes time to ramp up. It can take three to five years to get the [patronage] to ride up - to change their habits from driving to taking transit." he said.

He said the public sector needed to provide assurance this would happen.

"Usually there is some provision for the public sector to provide an operating assistance until that happens," he said.

[BrizCommuter]

BrizCommuter went along to the CRR display in King George Square today, and was not amused by the 2016 service forecasts.
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2010/11/cross-river-rail-service-forecast.html

BrizCommuter, thanks for the info.

I think that there may be a typo below as 3 x 8 = 24.

Mains from South - 18tph:
Springfield - 8tph
Ipswich - 8tph
Rosewood - 8tph

Sorry, Rosewood is 2tph. I'll correct the typo.

[Cam]

BrizCommuter went along to the CRR display in King George Square today, and was not amused by the 2016 service forecasts.
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2010/11/cross-river-rail-service-forecast.html

Mains from South - 18tph:
Springfield - 8tph
Ipswich - 8tph
Rosewood - 2tph

Does this mean that there won't be any Redbank terminators in peak periods? There is a stabling yard under construction just west of Redbank station for 6 x 6 cars.

[BrizCommuter]

BrizCommuter went along to the CRR display in King George Square today, and was not amused by the 2016 service forecasts.
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2010/11/cross-river-rail-service-forecast.html

Mains from South - 18tph:
Springfield - 8tph
Ipswich - 8tph
Rosewood - 2tph

Does this mean that there won't be any Redbank terminators in peak periods? There is a stabling yard under construction just west of Redbank station for 6 x 6 cars.

The figures are just projected figures, I would read into them as much or as little as you like.

[somebody]

Forecasts are delusional. 

Ain't that the truth?

I agree with Brizcommuter, no increase in Beenleigh line frequencies isn't good, but what is worse is the lack of increase in Ferny Grove trains.  up to 8tph from 7tph isn't going to cut it.

One point though for posters on this forum, there is no reason to run around via Tennyson as the mains would be 1tph short of capacity on these forecasts.  In fact, it would make sense to have trains going the other way: coming from Springfield heading to the CBD via Tennyson.

And they are still persisting with the ridiculous idea of having the Kuraby trains coming from Central, but the Beenleigh trains coming from Albert St.  That is STUPID, unless the Beenleigh trains aren't serving the stops between Yeerongpilly and Kuraby, which wouldn't work out with the loadings.  Where would you wait for the next train to Sunnybank, for example?  This is something which needs to be opposed every step of the way.  They seem to want to stunt the inner Beenleigh line at Yeerongpilly, but not accept that is what the situation will be.

Also, triplication only to Kingston would be tight with 9tph from Varsity Lakes.

Does this mean that there won't be any Redbank terminators in peak periods? There is a stabling yard under construction just west of Redbank station for 6 x 6 cars.

I would suggest that there has been an oversight there.  I'd also be surprised if Springfield requires as many trains as Ipswich in 2016.

[#Metro]

Groan.  I wish they hadn't mentioned sewers and subway in the same title. Horrible visions of trains coming out of the sewer system.
Mind you, that is where your broadband will be coming out of soon!!!

[mufreight]

Does this mean that there won't be any Redbank terminators in peak periods? There is a stabling yard under construction just west of Redbank station for 6 x 6 cars.

To construct stabling at Redbank is another example of the shortsighted planning approach of Queensland Transport.
It would be far more cost effective long term to build the new stabling facility at Wulkuraka where there is room for expansion and the construction of a maintenance facility which will be needed when the next generation of trains are placed into service.
It is odds on that there will be no increase in frequency west of Redbank using the excuse of dead running between Redbank and Ipswich as justification.

[mufreight]

Slightly off topic on a topic that is a little off, but   

Groan.  I wish they hadn't mentioned sewers and subway in the same title. Horrible visions of trains coming out of the sewer system.
Mind you, that is where your broadband will be coming out of soon!!!

Perhaps using a sewer for broadband might be appropriate considering some of the content.

[#Metro]

 

[Cam]

18tph along the mains to the south is more than a doubling of services in the afternoon over the current situation. I would think a better distribution would be:

Springfield 6tph
Redbank 4tph
Ipswich 4tph (express services only stopping major stations between Roma St & Redbank ie. Milton, Toowong, Indooroopilly, Oxley, Darra & Goodna)
Rosewood 4tph (express services between Roma St & Darra, Darra & Redbank - no change at Ipswich)

This would mean that there would be a service every 7.5 mins to/from Ipswich. This may not be much more frequent than the current timetable but as these services should skip either about 8 or 13 stations, the Springfield & Redbank all stoppers would effectively provide much relief for the Ipswich & Rosewood services.

EDIT: added in the afternoon.

[somebody]

There's more trains in the AM.  7:30am-8:30am there are 12 arrivals at Central.  I believe there is an hour with at least 13, and more services have been added since I received that info.

[Cam]

There's more trains in the AM.  7:30am-8:30am there are 12 arrivals at Central.  I believe there is an hour with at least 13, and more services have been added since I received that info.

I looked at outbound services. You're right that there are more frequent services inbound in the morning peak.

[aldonius]

In case anyone hasn't seen it yet: Complete CRR Reference is now up.

http://www.crossriverrail.qld.gov.au/images/stories/reference_design/pdf_cross_river_rail_reference_design_overview.pdf

[#Metro]

First page of CRR says this:

"Most of our main cities are now at the size where it is simply impossible to rely solely on private motor vehicles
for commuting journeys...
comprehensive public transport networks are essential for the long term success of Australia's
cities."

[colinw]

The Courier-Mail: Don't get above your station -> click here

GRANDIOSE CENTRAL: Why does an underground station
need an above-ground covered area big enough to play
a State of Origin match? What part of underground don't
we understand? Source: The Courier-Mail

THE Paris Metro, the London Underground and the New York Subway between them could move all the people of Brisbane in a couple of hours and bring them home in time for dinner.

They are systems of marvellous efficiency with local idiosyncrasies, but one thing they have in common is they generally present a fairly modest face to the world.

With a few notable exceptions such as, say, Grand Central or Penn stations at hubs or pivotal junctions, their entrances are generally unobtrusive, sometimes near-invisible except for their distinctive signage.

Some - in New York in particular - look like the entrances to those underground public toilets that were all the rage in years gone by. Some are just as malodorous.

In Paris, some are flamboyantly extravagant in an art deco or art nouveau fashion, but they consume little above-ground space except for a set of stairs.

Start of sidebar. Skip to end of sidebar.

End of sidebar. Return to start of sidebar.

Some stations are light on access for the handicapped, but the Metro is 110 years old.

Some in London would disappear into the drab if it weren't for the unmistakable tube logo.

Their function is merely to provide access to underground stations where the core business is done. And functionality is what it's all about.

So why does Brisbane suffer delusions of grandeur when it comes to the surface manifestations of underground transport?

The entrances to the King George Square bus station are as big as aircraft hangars, taking ugly bites out of what was once a visually sympathetic public place.

...

[Golliwog]

He does have a point in that opinion piece. Although IMO he also points out the exact reason why there are differences. The New York and Paris metros are, as he point out, very old. They aren't overly deep and have had development occur above and around their entrances. The reason the entrances here are so big is partly due to the fact that they are rather deep and are also the construction sites for the stations themselves. Infact, if you look at the written CRR reference design, pretty much all of the inner city entrances are proposed to have buildings built on top. The problem is you just cannot get diggers, etc down through the entrances he describes (the ones the size of stairwells).

[#Metro]

Is it just me, or is the CM taking an anti-government anti-taxpayer expenditure on anything position on almost everything.
Perhaps CM would suggest Cross River Rail should use second hand vehicles and recycled timber sleepers because it is cheaper.

[Stillwater]

Will not the trains originating from Caboolture and places north branch off at Strathpine to follow the Trouts Road corridor before joining the FG Line.  Could that be a reason for such low tph originating from Ferny Grove?

[somebody]

Will not the trains originating from Caboolture and places north branch off at Strathpine to follow the Trouts Road corridor before joining the FG Line.  Could that be a reason for such low tph originating from Ferny Grove?

No, because those trains would then be connecting to the suburbans.  Unless Brizcommuter has assumed that.

I don't imagine there are any plans to build a rail line on Trouts Rd by 2016.

[O_128]

Big bold entrances are the way to go , plus roma street is going to get a southern cross style roof

[ozbob]

The lack of a second mainstream daily paper in Brisbane is telling hey what?

[WTN]

KGS station portals aren't that big; they're a functional size. A busy CBD train station needs bigger entrances to get huge volumes of people in and out - not a mere stairwell or two. Central Station is already a stampede in peak hour.

There's also the construction equipment needed to build the station and tunnel.

[ozbob]

The lack of a second mainstream daily paper in Brisbane is telling hey what?

News Ltd is talking about putting much of their stuff behind paid firewalls.  Good luck to them as they slide to oblivion.  ABC will be free and budding online news entrepreneurs are sure to fill the gap.

Next!

[#Metro]

Its just another moan & groan story. BORING!!!

[colinw]

So, The Courier-Mail's position is that we should impede a vital multi-billion rail line with dingy, difficult to spot entrances.

Amazing! They must drink a lot or something, because clearly brain cells have been dying.

Yet another example of why I will not buy The Courier-Mail, and will not pay a solitary cent for News corporation gumpf if it goes behind a paywall.