Cross River Rail Project

[ozbob]

We have known for some time that there are problems due to constraints in the corridor to leave Dutton Park station where it is.

I was told in 2015  I think it was, about the problems. 

I said as much in an interview in August 2020, so I don't know why it was such a surprise.

(https://backontrack.org/docs/abcbris/abcbris_rd11aug20.mp3 MP3 14.1 MB).

Yes, the location for Park Rd/Boggo Rd is a no brainer.

[achiruel]

I assume that if the tunnel portals were further south at Yeerongpilly there'd be no issue at Dutton Park?

[ozbob]

I assume that if the tunnel portals were further south at Yeerongpilly there'd be no issue at Dutton Park?

There is some sensitive equipment in the Ecosciences precinct, but as far as I know because the tunnel alignment would not be forced to be in line with Dutton Park grades and curves would not be an issue.

[ozbob]

I have a hard copy of the CRR 2010 Reference Design Overview.

This image from that document (phone snap) shows the alignment that would have been possible.



I have to say it, but the proposed 2010 design was very good.  Stood up well to IA analysis (top priority) and was the way forward.

Today's compromise is very much second rate in comparison.

The proposed grades were 2.6% coming up from underneath Fairfield to Boggo Road, 3% down to 'Gabba, 3% to bottom of the BNE river, then 2% up to Albert St, then 1.9% to the northern Portal.  As on a much easier alignment no problem.

[There is an image of the document here > https://web.archive.org/web/20110227125621/http://www.crossriverrail.qld.gov.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=99&Itemid=154  I don't think the links to documents work.]

[Gazza]

As I recall the issue at Dutton Park with BaT was that if you have a climb that is simultaneously turning, the combination of the uphill grade with the required tilt in the turn was summing to be above the  acceptable grade, necessitating the removal of dutton park.
They obviously tried a bit too hard in this spot, leading to the issues.

[BrizCommuter]

BrizCommuter has come out of hibernation for a Q4 2020 Cross River Rail scorecard.
https://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2020/11/cross-river-rail-score-card-q4-2020.html

[MTPCo]

Well we can blame the last LNP government for the 3 track section from Dutton Park to Salisbury.

That is most definitely true. It is also true that the current ALP government has had 5 years to resolve this issue. It's not sufficient for them to throw their hands up and say "the other guys did this", they are now in power and could have resolved the problem in any number of ways - tunnel stubs as future provision, re-purchasing the land at Yeerongpilly, surfacing at a different location between Yeerongpilly and Moorooka, surfacing south of Moorooka with a single track bi-di portal north of Moorooka to enable access to the stabling at Clapham...the list goes on.

On a related note, where is the accountability for the decisions made that have led to this point? Taking the above example, someone must have signed off and said "yes three tracks is fine". We know that it's not, but has that person ever been held accountable? Your post about a commission of enquiry in 2026 is welcomed - what a great task it would be to go back and identify who is responsible for each of the terrible decisions that led to this point. I'm also saying this without prejudice, because I don't intend to single out any one person here, more that the retrospective accountability review needs to take place (but of course it almost certainly never will).

[ozbob]

BrizCommuter has come out of hibernation for a Q4 2020 Cross River Rail scorecard.
https://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2020/11/cross-river-rail-score-card-q4-2020.html

Thanks Briz.

====

Sent to all outlets:

17th November 2020

On going concerns with CRR

Good Morning,

For your information:

BrizCommuter: Cross River Rail - Score Card Q4 2020

https://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2020/11/cross-river-rail-score-card-q4-2020.html

"This is the third of BrizCommuter's scorecards looking at the progress of Brisbane's Cross River Rail (CRR).  This score card looks at whether the proposed am peak service frequencies will be achievable when CRR opens to train services in 2025. These proposed am peak service frequencies are based on the information provided in the "Check Mate" section of CRR's website in 2019. Strangely,  everything related to proposed rail operations went missing from CRR's website in early 2020. Possible scores are No Improvement, Achievable, Concerning, and Critical."

Full article > https://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2020/11/cross-river-rail-score-card-q4-2020.html

RAIL Back On Track has previously raised concerns with Cross River Rail.  See > https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=2034.msg241072#msg241072

Best wishes,

Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1328360210319065088

[ozbob]

The Couriermail is opining that Cross River Rail will be essential for the SEQ 2032 Olympic games should that come to pass.

*"There is talk of a Very Fast Train between the Sunshine Coast and Gold Coast.
An Olympics would also make the Cross River Rail essential "

*Couriermail Editorial 17th November 2020

Who is going to tell them that a lack of future proofing with the half-baked Cross River Rail will make that a prohibitively expensive task?

They are dreaming ...  this is a jurisdiction that has hit a brick wall with LX removals  ... 

[ozbob]

Well we can blame the last LNP government for the 3 track section from Dutton Park to Salisbury.

That is most definitely true. It is also true that the current ALP government has had 5 years to resolve this issue. It's not sufficient for them to throw their hands up and say "the other guys did this", they are now in power and could have resolved the problem in any number of ways - tunnel stubs as future provision, re-purchasing the land at Yeerongpilly, surfacing at a different location between Yeerongpilly and Moorooka, surfacing south of Moorooka with a single track bi-di portal north of Moorooka to enable access to the stabling at Clapham...the list goes on.

On a related note, where is the accountability for the decisions made that have led to this point? Taking the above example, someone must have signed off and said "yes three tracks is fine". We know that it's not, but has that person ever been held accountable? Your post about a commission of enquiry in 2026 is welcomed - what a great task it would be to go back and identify who is responsible for each of the terrible decisions that led to this point. I'm also saying this without prejudice, because I don't intend to single out any one person here, more that the retrospective accountability review needs to take place (but of course it almost certainly never will).

I believe that only way this project can be saved is to conduct a commission of inquiry now!

But this is as likely to happen as fast rail to Maroochydore is.

The evidence is very substantial they and us all are on a path to mediocrity (despite the denials from Govt Ministers etc. ). 

They said much the same about new generation trains and the world class public transport network before it all melted down into a big pile of poo.

[Gazza]

Thats the angle of attack.

They claimed all was good with the NGRs and the new timetable, but they won't answer questions instead going for the whole "uwu its a big compwicated pwoject"

Because Bailey is bullshitting, it is absolutely NOT normal to fully redesign a portal from scratch and change the construction methodology after the contract has been let.

Ok you might if you literally found an oil deposit, but f**** this is one where we perhaps need to harness the CMs biases.

The government has trained the public that the only way they will act is through embarassment, so lets start embarassing them.

[MTPCo]

I believe that only way this project can be saved is to conduct a commission of inquiry now!

But this is as likely to happen as fast rail to Maroochydore is.

+1 (sadly, on the second point).

it is absolutely NOT normal to fully redesign a portal from scratch and change the construction methodology after the contract has been let.

That's right, it's absurd. Even more, you might recall that when responding to the Steve Austin interview last November, or the BT article last month, they trot out this sort of statement:

"The independent Coordinator-General has approved the Cross River Rail project proceeding to its final design and Queenslanders can have a high level of confidence that the project's design and planning is robust," the spokesman said.

No substance, and it turns out to not be backed up by anything. Just spin.

[MTPCo]

Of course, having said all that, if they were to make the changes that have been recommended to them through various channels and mountains of analysis, they would be applauded. It could easily be spun to blame former ministers or boards, and put forward as a demonstration that they were 'listening to the experts'. Changing to add value to the project would be a good news story, no doubt about it.

[ozbob]

IN QUEENSLAND --> Covering their tracks? Secrecy raises concerns $5.2b project may be a dud

(no paywall)

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/InQldMedia/status/1328521208090873857

[ozbob]

Facebook ...

On going concerns with CRR 17th November 2020 For your information: BrizCommuter: Cross River Rail - Score Card Q4...

Posted by RAIL - Back On Track on Monday, 16 November 2020

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1328540335815811072

[MTPCo]

IN QUEENSLAND --> Covering their tracks? Secrecy raises concerns $5.2b project may be a dud

(no paywall)

"Queenslanders can have a high level of confidence that the project's design and planning is robust"

Same line trotted out again.

[BrizCommuter]

We don't have any confidence, that's the problem!

[MTPCo]

"Queenslanders can have a high level of confidence that the project's design and planning is robust because it has evolved and been improved over the past decade since the original concept was first floated," the spokesman said.

https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/designs-for-cross-river-rail-will-add-no-capacity-former-qr-infrastructure-manager/news-story/bf54b093d973c344ae43d41471d8dfa4 - November 22nd, 2019 (paywall)

"The independent Coordinator-General has approved the Cross River Rail project proceeding to its final design and Queenslanders can have a high level of confidence that the project's design and planning is robust," the spokesman said.

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/planner-who-worked-on-cross-river-rail-says-urgent-changes-are-needed-20201013-p564kg.html - October 15, 2020

[A spokesman] said Queensland's Coordinator-General had approved the project proceeding to its final design and "Queenslanders can have a high level of confidence that the project's design and planning is robust"

https://inqld.com.au/news/2020/11/17/trouble-on-the-tracks-concerns-grow-that-our-biggest-project-may-be-going-off-the-rails/ - November 17, 2020

Looks like we're about to celebrate the anniversary of the same line of "just trust us", without specifically addressing the issues raised and certainly not proving otherwise by releasing the operating plans.

[ozbob]

^ while CRRDA and Ministers and their staff continue to refuse reasonable requests for disclosure of rail service plans and the like, and rely on failed spin and babble they will increasingly be called out.  The public is losing confidence in the project with good reason. 

Got that lurkers!   

[Gazza]

"We dont have the highest level of confidence because we are too afraid to put things out there"

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

Re: On going concerns with CRR

18th November 2020

Good Morning,

Article at IN QUEENSLAND

'Covering their tracks? Secrecy raises concerns $5.4b project may be a dud'
https://inqld.com.au/news/2020/11/17/trouble-on-the-tracks-concerns-grow-that-our-biggest-project-may-be-going-off-the-rails/

Spin and babble does not address the issues raised by us and others, and confidence in the project outcomes is increasingly being lost by not releasing the rail operating plans.

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Sent to all outlets:

17th November 2020

On going concerns with CRR

Good Morning,

For your information:

BrizCommuter: Cross River Rail - Score Card Q4 2020

https://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2020/11/cross-river-rail-score-card-q4-2020.html

"This is the third of BrizCommuter's scorecards looking at the progress of Brisbane's Cross River Rail (CRR).  This score card looks at whether the proposed am peak service frequencies will be achievable when CRR opens to train services in 2025. These proposed am peak service frequencies are based on the information provided in the "Check Mate" section of CRR's website in 2019. Strangely,  everything related to proposed rail operations went missing from CRR's website in early 2020. Possible scores are No Improvement, Achievable, Concerning, and Critical."

Full article > https://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2020/11/cross-river-rail-score-card-q4-2020.html

RAIL Back On Track has previously raised concerns with Cross River Rail.  See > https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=2034.msg241072#msg241072

Best wishes,

Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

"Queenslanders can have a high level of confidence that Cross River Rail's design and planning is robust"
Really?  We do not!

19th November 2020

"Queenslanders can have a high level of confidence that the project's design and planning is robust". This is the simple line Queenslanders are given if they have any concerns about Cross River Rail (CRR) planning.

In other words: "Just trust us".

However, RAIL Back on Track Members have very real concerns about the project, with an abnormal level of non-engagement not seen before and the apparent deliberate actions by the Minister and the CRR Delivery Authority to avoid openly sharing meaningful information, things are not right.

Simply put, we feel like we have been here before.

When voices inside Queensland Rail raised concerns about the ability to have enough staff to drive every train with the opening of the Redcliffe line, they were ignored and told everything was okay. What followed was 20 months of timetable cuts in order to try and stretch staff across the network, and finally the Queensland Rail Train Crewing Practices Commission of Inquiry to work out where it all went wrong.

When disability advocates were able to demonstrate on multiple occasions that the NGR trains were not compliant with accessibility regulations, they were ignored, and told everything was okay. What followed was a $335m repair bill and  the Commission of inquiry into New Generation Rollingstock Trains led by Judge Michael Forde to work out where it all went wrong.

This is happening again for a third time.

Despite the governments claims of robustness, both casual observers and industry experts are seeing a growing list of red flags which include:

The redesign of the Dutton Park tunnel portal to fix a design that trains would not be able to negotiate. Despite Minister Bailey's claims that changes like this are "normal" in a project of this scale, they are absolutely not. Anybody involved in construction would tell you that a radical change to the construction methodology after the contract has been let and work is underway constitutes a major blunder. Why wasn't this picked up in the dawdling design stage the government claimed they needed to "get it right"?

Lack of a service plan, with claims by the CRR Delivery Authority that they will take a wait and see approach before deciding on train routings and service levels. This is also refutable. Infrastructure is designed to support the transport needs of the next 30+ years, so why use a short period over the next year or two to model this, instead of robust long term data? Simply put, the infrastructure you build must support the operations, so if they have not determined the operations, they cannot have decided what they are building. This will lead to cost blowouts to try and adapt it through contract variations, or "cost lens" solutions that don't work well.

Track designs that create bottlenecks. Independent Rail experts and observers alike have pointed out that the current designs published are not fit for purpose, and will lead to wasted track capacity through both the city and tunnel. Simply put, "conflicting movements" will result, where trains will block each other from day one due to flat junctions, meaning we are not getting all the extra capacity we were promised.

Immunity from Right To Information (Freedom Of Information) is a major concern. As we have seen in recent times on infrastructure projects interstate, lack of Freedom of Information has led to massive wastes of money. Interested parties have honest questions about the project they want answers for, which is fully reasonable on Queensland's biggest infrastructure project. But we just do not have a means to ask these questions, which creates a hostile environment. There is no justification for the government to behave like this.

A 3rd Minister on the project and a sacking of the board. Four Project Directors in the past decade, with seemingly no accountability for decisions made under their watch. A revolving door of people in charge and a board with only existing public servants is a recipe for failure. Recall that the CRR Delivery Authority was established to "take the politics out of it", which has not happened.

A lack of rail strategy, with no view for the long-term evolution of the network. Major rail infrastructure should set up a reconfiguration of the network, yet there is no rail strategy for SEQ. This vacuum of direction is one of the reasons CRR has been able to be designed so poorly, as it is not being viewed as the basis of a transformation of the network, rather just a project to be "gotten up".

We want the Government, the CRR Delivery Authority to 'walk the walk' and start listening and engaging with people outside their bubble so we can make this project work, not be fixing it up for years after.

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

Facebook ...

"Queenslanders can have a high level of confidence that Cross River Rail's design and planning is robust" Really? We do...

Posted by RAIL - Back On Track on Wednesday, 18 November 2020

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1329081910618832897

[ozbob]

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/CrossRiverRail/status/1329243097130209281

[James]

What does everyone think they will do? Cut and cover tunnel and move Dutton Park Station South?  Demolish and delete  Dutton Park Station?

If the line is going to be closed for 2 months from Park Road to Coopers Plains? They might as well work on the Station upgrades at Fairfield, Salisbury etc.. at the same time. Less closures and disruptions in the future.

They did a major closure of the line between South Yarra and  Caulfield in relation to the Melbourne Metro project and managed to get a whole lot done in a short space of time..

Dutton Park needs to move further south by default - the grades are too steep to retain it in its existing position. This is why the LNP was going to close it under the BaT tunnel. I do wonder how far south the new station will be, as there is a curve immediately to the south of the existing station. Fenton St would be the likely new location - how they intend to fit in three platforms and associated infrastructure without resuming property is another issue!

The other issue is surfacing parallel to the other lines - you'll be digging right under existing tracks to get the train back on the surface. And these things tend to get worse, not better, as a design progresses. A sudden "change" to cut-and-cover tunnelling is also not SOP, in fact it would be a giant change of scope and no doubt the contractor is going to claim a small fortune in fees for all the stuffing around this is going to cause.

While it sounds like a "Here's how Bernie can still win" moment - the DA really needs to consider looking at changing the design to have CRR surface at Yeerongpilly, or even Clapham / Moorooka, before things get too far progressed. Construction works are already underway on many parts of the project. It may cost slightly more (maybe not as you might be able to reuse the TBMs in the north rather than mining all that tunnel), but the long-term benefits far outweigh the costs.

There is still room along much of the corridor south of Yeerongpilly for 4 tracks - not to mention resumptions should be easier. Hope is not lost, but time is running out...

[MTPCo]

While it sounds like a "Here's how Bernie can still win" moment - the DA really needs to consider looking at changing the design to have CRR surface at Yeerongpilly, or even Clapham / Moorooka, before things get too far progressed. Construction works are already underway on many parts of the project. It may cost slightly more (maybe not as you might be able to reuse the TBMs in the north rather than mining all that tunnel), but the long-term benefits far outweigh the costs.

This is absolutely a realistic approach*. By the time you account for the removal of the need to shut down the section between Park Road and Dutton Park to do the cut-and-cover, with all the cost and disruption that involves, and the benefits that stem from surfacing the tunnel somewhere near Yeerongpilly using the TBMs and project teams that will already be mobilised, it starts to stack up very quickly. I think half the resistance stems from the view that Newman selling off the land that was purchased has effectively "salted the earth" for a long tunnel option, notwithstanding there are multiple variations that don't take the same land or indeed much land at all (as the RSAQ has noted previously). There was also no reason why the land couldn't have been bought back, either.

*realistic, except in a dogmatic, blinkered, politicised transport planning space.

[ozbob]

Cross River Rail is a classic example of how incompetent politics and a weak bureaucracy have stuffed what would have been a very good project.  It is going to cost many billions of $ to sort this half baked effort down the track ..

FAST RAIL!  More like failure rail!!

I think the preferred option is to halt the project (not ETCS work) and review the entire scope and correct the obvious deficiencies. 

This is as likely to happen as 3900 locos climbing the Kuranda Range.   

So we are left with another familiar half-baked Queensland project failure.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/MarkBaileyMP/status/1329546213268410368

[ozbob]

^

https://twitter.com/notthatwhiskey/status/1329681376300261378

[ozbob]

Good  morning lurkers ..

[ozbob]

Facebook ...

"Queenslanders can have a high level of confidence that Cross River Rail's design and planning is robust" Really? We do...

Posted by RAIL - Back On Track on Wednesday, 18 November 2020

Very good response to this post.  Message is getting out there ...

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1329886486662037511

[BrizCommuter]

Just working on a new blog post at the moment with some diagrams showing what a disaster the CRR bottlenecks are.

[ozbob]

I think this sums up how poor strategic infrastructure planning and implementation is in Queensland.

Victoria can get $5 billion for Melbourne Airport Rail, Queensland gets zero dollars for Cross River Rail.

Despite being built with public funds they still intend to charge punters a fare at least equivalent to SkyBus to and from MEL.



Airport rail should be built as for BNE - BOOT !

ABC News --> Melbourne Airport Rail Link construction to start 2022, trains to run to CBD every 10 minutes

Key points:

Passengers along the Cranbourne and Pakenham lines will be able to ride to the airport without changing trains

An exchange at Sunshine will connect Geelong passengers in an hour, Ballarat in 90 minutes and Bendigo in two hours

The travel time between Traralgon and Melbourne Airport is estimated to be three hours

The Victorian Government and Federal Government have each committed $5 billion to the project, which Prime Minister Scott Morrison said would begin construction in 2022 and support up to 8,000 jobs.

[ozbob]

Just working on a new blog post at the moment with some diagrams showing what a disaster the CRR bottlenecks are.

Thanks.