Cross River Rail Project

[ozbob]

[ozbob]

Hiding CRRDA behind the exemption under the RTI legislation I think probably was done to hide the full business case.  It is still hidden.

Using that RTI exemption  to hide the concept of operations (rail service plan) is a consequence of that blanket exemption.

I am very concerned now that this project is not getting proper public scrutiny.  The CRR Board is just a group of DG level public servants, that fact doesn't inspire any confidence in me too.

The Government spin machine is working hard to present positive spin (as evidenced by the puff piece series in the Couriermail last week) leading up to #qldvotes.  You may or may not be aware that the Premiers Office has a number of ex political journalists driving the spin machine.

Not being able to RTI is not the end of the chase.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1288136913405140993

[kram0]

Corruption at it's best.

The opposition need to jump on this. With all the Trad headlines, the last thing Labor will want is another smoking gun with links to Trad.

[BrizCommuter]

The ongoing hiding of the rail operations plan shows that Cross River Rail Fail is almost guaranteed!

[ozbob]

Sent to OIC

29th July 2020

Good Morning. 

RAIL Back On Track is seeking the rail service plan for when Cross River Rail opens.  This how the rail network will operate, routing of the trains, pattern of operation and service frequency.  It is the sort of information that should be available publicly.  We wrote to the CRRDA a month ago seeking the information with no result.  Our next step was to be a RTI.  However, I received advice from TMR RTI Officer that

" I've been advised that the document you are enquiring about is a document of the Cross River Rail Delivery Authority (CRRDA) and is in relation to their commercial activities. Schedule 2 of the Right to Information Act 2009, states that the commercial functions of CRRDA are not subject to the Right to Information Act (RTI Act).
As a result, you would not be able to request the document under the RTI Act."

I have checked the legislation:

====

Right to Information Act 2009

Reprint current from 18 November 2019 to date (accessed 28 July 2020 at 16:18)

Schedule 2

https://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/view/html/inforce/current/act-2009-013#sch.2

Entities to which this Act does not apply


the Cross River Rail Delivery Authority established under the Cross River Rail Delivery Authority Act 2016, section 8, in relation to its functions, except so far as they relate to community service obligations under that Act

====

I am not sure how a rail service plan relates to commercial activities.  It is simply how the rail network will operate.

Is there any other avenue for finding out this information, information which I might add is publicly available in other states for similar projects?

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

The ongoing hiding of the rail operations plan shows that Cross River Rail Fail is almost guaranteed!

It is very very concerning. 

[Gazza]

Woah, so the general public cant make any RTIs about CRRDA....this is an explosive story in itself!

A Multi billion project with no mechanism for public scrutiny!

[BrizCommuter]

Surprised the press didn't pick up on the Gold Coast Line Slow Down story. They can't even run a good story when it's fed to them on a plate.

[ozbob]

Surprised the press didn't pick up on the Gold Coast Line Slow Down story. They can't even run a good story when it's fed to them on a plate.

It is getting increasingly difficult with all the recent media cutbacks.  The journos that are left are flat out and it can be difficult to cut through.

We will keep trying though.

It is important that we use social media and write letters to media and MPs as well. 

[ozbob]

 

[aldonius]

I suppose I might as well drop in my attempts at correspondence with the CRR team.

I tried a different tack, I asked them for the line pairings and if possible a working timetable, with reference to the business case.

This was the response I got:

Cross River Rail's construction will be completed by 2024 after which the Project will enter into an extensive safety testing and commissioning process with services expected to start in 2025.

Between now and the start of testing and commissioning, we will continue to work with the Department of Transport and Main Roads and Queensland Rail to ensure the new and expanded services integrate smoothly into the wider network when Cross River Rail opens.

Given the five-year timeframe through until 2025 the sensible approach is to ensure we continue to work with DTMR to monitor passenger demand, and the range of other factors, that are relevant to determine service frequency.

Naturally this didn't answer my question at all, I was after the plans from 2017, not the current ones. I told them this, but a month later, still have not received a response.

However, the last paragraph gives a slightly more innocent reason for not talking about service frequencies recently. Their projections are probably quite messed up by COVID.

[Jonno]

I suppose I might as well drop in my attempts at correspondence with the CRR team.

I tried a different tack, I asked them for the line pairings and if possible a working timetable, with reference to the business case.

This was the response I got:

Cross River Rail's construction will be completed by 2024 after which the Project will enter into an extensive safety testing and commissioning process with services expected to start in 2025.

Between now and the start of testing and commissioning, we will continue to work with the Department of Transport and Main Roads and Queensland Rail to ensure the new and expanded services integrate smoothly into the wider network when Cross River Rail opens.

Given the five-year timeframe through until 2025 the sensible approach is to ensure we continue to work with DTMR to monitor passenger demand, and the range of other factors, that are relevant to determine service frequency.

Naturally this didn't answer my question at all, I was after the plans from 2017, not the current ones. I told them this, but a month later, still have not received a response.

However, the last paragraph gives a slightly more innocent reason for not talking about service frequencies recently. Their projections are probably quite messed up by COVID.

There in lies the problem with TMR and public transport planning!! They still think it is a demand game (usually artificial limits based on no theory other than looking at what we have today) not a supply game!!

[ozbob]

James, it just begs incredulity.  If I was going to build a rail project worth $5 billion plus ++  I would at least know the line pairings and how trains would run because that is important in making sure the track layouts will be optimal and operational.  I can accept exact frequencies need determination, but the general concept of operations must be known prior to planning and actual construction.

One doesn't build a project and then realise oh, we can't run trains properly through the core of Brisbane.

They must think we are fools.

The communication of CRRDA is shambolic.  I had to ring them to get my emails out of their junk folder. 

The haphazard approach to communications is no doubt reflected throughout the entire project. 

I would suggest they did up similar service plans for PM peak, interpeak and off peak as well as this one they actually published.

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Why Roma Street, Fortitude Valley stations have become mazes

Megaprojects that will transform Brisbane have turned two of the inner city's busiest stations into crammed mazes.

Commuters entering or leaving Fortitude Valley station are forced to navigate a confusing maze of one-way corridors while the Valley Metro redevelopment of the above shopping centre gets under way.

Meanwhile, Cross River Rail works are funnelling commuters through Roma Street station into a cramped and crowded passageway.

Videos taken by The Courier-Mail show commuters navigating their way from the gate line to the street at both stations can take up to a minute.

It comes as a flurry of major projects look set to transform Brisbane in coming years.

Demolition of the Brisbane Transit Centre at Roma Street, to make way for the new underground Cross River Rail platforms, means the busy exit into the city's legal and police precinct can become cramped during peak-hour.

The new Roma Street has been described as Brisbane's 'Grand Central.'

"Cross River Rail is not only changing the face of southeast Queensland forever, it's changing the lives of thousands of Queenslanders during construction," State Development Minister Kate Jones told The Courier-Mail recently.

Meanwhile, a stunning redevelopment of the once run-down Valley Metro precinct will see cinemas and a full-line Woolworths supermarket added right above Fortitude Valley Station by early 2021.

Construction works mean passengers are funnelled through narrow one-way corridors.

Once complete however, the Valley Metro project will support 30 retailers and a 20-storey office tower.

Colliers International national director Bo Veivers said the space would be unrecognisable from its former life as a rundown food court.

"Aesthetically, it will be a complete overhaul," Mr Veivers said.

"There will be a lot more options for customers travelling through."

He said construction was happening literally above the heads of commuters as the rushed through to Brunswick Street.

"They are completely redoing the building essentially, it's completely around them."

[Cazza]

Slow news day? Just go over to any tube station in London and then report back to me on your findings...

[BrizCommuter]

I suppose I might as well drop in my attempts at correspondence with the CRR team.

I tried a different tack, I asked them for the line pairings and if possible a working timetable, with reference to the business case.

This was the response I got:

Cross River Rail's construction will be completed by 2024 after which the Project will enter into an extensive safety testing and commissioning process with services expected to start in 2025.

Between now and the start of testing and commissioning, we will continue to work with the Department of Transport and Main Roads and Queensland Rail to ensure the new and expanded services integrate smoothly into the wider network when Cross River Rail opens.

Given the five-year timeframe through until 2025 the sensible approach is to ensure we continue to work with DTMR to monitor passenger demand, and the range of other factors, that are relevant to determine service frequency.

Naturally this didn't answer my question at all, I was after the plans from 2017, not the current ones. I told them this, but a month later, still have not received a response.

However, the last paragraph gives a slightly more innocent reason for not talking about service frequencies recently. Their projections are probably quite messed up by COVID.

Their projections are probably messed up by lack of trains, drivers, and associated infrastructure. The fact that projected am peak frequencies were removed from CRR's website shows that there is something to hide.

[kram0]

Once CRR is operational, I don't expect too much more than what we currently have in off peak. I am even less confident for the weekend timetable.

4 TPH to/from the GC (the only line with an off peak increase, 2 TPH to/from Beenleigh and 4 TPH to/from Coopers Plains or maybe somewhere slightly further out such as Altandi. I'm not sure if the latter is even possible due to track limitations?

This would give CRR stations 10 TPH in each directions.

Further to the above I have done some very rough calculations and although a very tight schedule, it seems you could do 4 x GC on current pattern, 2 x Beenleigh express from Boggo Rd to Altandi, then all stations and 4 x Boggo Rd to Altandi all stations.

They would possibly need some additional station infrastructure at Altandi and Beenleigh to accomodate.

[ozbob]

Woah, so the general public cant make any RTIs about CRRDA....this is an explosive story in itself!

A Multi billion project with no mechanism for public scrutiny!

Sent to all outlets:

Call for proper public scrutiny of the Cross River Rail Delivery Authority

31st July 2020

Good Morning,

RAIL Back On Track Members are concerned that the Cross River Rail Delivery Authority (CRRDA) is not subject to the Right To Information Act 2009.

From  https://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/view/html/inforce/current/act-2009-013#sch.2

Reprint current from 18 November 2019 to date (accessed 28 July 2020 at 16:18)

Schedule 2

Entities to which this Act does not apply:

"the Cross River Rail Delivery Authority established under the Cross River Rail Delivery Authority Act 2016, section 8, in relation to its functions, except so far as they relate to community service obligations under that Act"

Further more the old Cross River Rail Delivery Authority Board was replaced with a board comprised of Senior Public Servants April 2020.
The current Cross River Rail Delivery Board was appointed on 14 April 2020.

Membership of the Board is:
Mr Damien Walker, Director-General, Department of State Development, Tourism and Innovation (Chair)
Mr Dave Stewart, Director-General, Department of the Premier and Cabinet
Ms Rachel Hunter, Under Treasurer, Queensland Treasury
Mr Neil Scales OBE, Director-General, Department of Transport and Main Roads
Ms Liza Carroll, Director-General, Department of Housing and Public Works
Dr Sarah Pearson, Deputy Director-General, Department of State Development, Tourism and Innovation
Mr Matthew Longland, Deputy Director-General, Department of Transport and Main Roads

https://crossriverrail.qld.gov.au/about/our-people/

We have concerns that the Board is no longer independent in our opinion.

The Department of the Premier and Cabinet Roles and responsibilities ( https://www.premiers.qld.gov.au/publications/categories/policies-and-codes/handbooks/welcome-aboard/public-employee-roles/responsibilities.aspx ) states where public service employees are members of Government Boards this in part:

" When appointed to a Government Board in an official capacity, the public service employee should be aware of the government's policy imperatives and should not present a personal opinion or position that is contrary to either the Minister's directives or the government's policy agenda. "

We are therefore rightly concerned that activities of the CRRDA are not subject to proper public scrutiny.  We call on all political parties to consider amending legislation to remove CRRDA from Schedule 2 of the RTI legislation and make it subject to proper scrutiny.

Consideration should also be given to replace the board with members, that are in our opinion, seen to be independent of the Government of the day.

There has been a recent history of major problems with rail and rail related projects in SEQ, expensive to fix.

The last thing we need is another one.

Best wishes,

Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1288922563733622784

[ozbob]

Facebook ...

[ozbob]

 

Song for you lurkers !

#youarewelcome

[BrizCommuter]

Once CRR is operational, I don't expect too much more than what we currently have in off peak. I am even less confident for the weekend timetable.

4 TPH to/from the GC (the only line with an off peak increase, 2 TPH to/from Beenleigh and 4 TPH to/from Coopers Plains or maybe somewhere slightly further out such as Altandi. I'm not sure if the latter is even possible due to track limitations?

This would give CRR stations 10 TPH in each directions.

Further to the above I have done some very rough calculations and although a very tight schedule, it seems you could do 4 x GC on current pattern, 2 x Beenleigh express from Boggo Rd to Altandi, then all stations and 4 x Boggo Rd to Altandi all stations.

They would possibly need some additional station infrastructure at Altandi and Beenleigh to accomodate.

4tph GC, 4tph Loganlea, 4tph Salisbury will be possible with existing infrastructure plus 3rd track at Loganlea.

[JimmyP]

Would the Loganlea terminators in that instance still be able to continue to Beenleigh, but with a 4 or 5min dwell at Loganlea each direction to allow the Gold Coast express trains to pass? Thus allowing the Gold Coast trains to stay on their current pattern. Fairly common thing to happen in other parts of the world.

[BrizCommuter]

Would the Loganlea terminators in that instance still be able to continue to Beenleigh, but with a 4 or 5min dwell at Loganlea each direction to allow the Gold Coast express trains to pass? Thus allowing the Gold Coast trains to stay on their current pattern. Fairly common thing to happen in other parts of the world.

It is possible, as long as they are not overtaking at the same time in each direction. Bethania could be used for the inbound overtake.

[kram0]

Once CRR is operational, I don't expect too much more than what we currently have in off peak. I am even less confident for the weekend timetable.

4 TPH to/from the GC (the only line with an off peak increase, 2 TPH to/from Beenleigh and 4 TPH to/from Coopers Plains or maybe somewhere slightly further out such as Altandi. I'm not sure if the latter is even possible due to track limitations?

This would give CRR stations 10 TPH in each directions.

Further to the above I have done some very rough calculations and although a very tight schedule, it seems you could do 4 x GC on current pattern, 2 x Beenleigh express from Boggo Rd to Altandi, then all stations and 4 x Boggo Rd to Altandi all stations.

They would possibly need some additional station infrastructure at Altandi and Beenleigh to accomodate.

4tph GC, 4tph Loganlea, 4tph Salisbury will be possible with existing infrastructure plus 3rd track at Loganlea.

What would the stopping patterns be under the above scenario?

[ozbob]

Uncertain as to which department handles RTIs for Cross River Rail.

So I have written to Department of State Development, Tourism and Innovation RTI Officer asking if they are correct department.

You would normally expect DTMR to handle transport but CRRDA has a different command structure.

I received no response from the Department of State Development, Tourism and Innovation RTI Officer so I wrote to RTI Officer at TMR.

This was the response:

2:56 PM 28th July 2020

I've been advised that the document you are enquiring about is a document of the Cross River Rail Delivery Authority (CRRDA) and is in relation to their commercial activities. Schedule 2 of the Right to Information Act 2009, states that the commercial functions of CRRDA are not subject to the Right to Information Act (RTI Act).

As a result, you would not be able to request the document under the RTI Act.


No quite sure how a concept of operations (rail service plan) relates to commercial activities, but it shows what we are up against in this state.  Other states are transparent, not Queensland.  This is not healthy.

Well, I have saved 50 bucks I guess ...

That is absolutely disgusting. Public funds on public infrastructure and no transparency? Utterly abhorrent.

Yes, it is very surprising.  I never realised that CRRDA was exempt from the RTI legislation and I expect most didn't either.  It is reasonable assumption that they would be, but no.  I have no doubt it was set up that way to ensure business case and dealings with IA were kept away from the public eyes.  It obviously was a mess as the result was IA didn't give it priority project status.

Despite being invited to resubmit a business case to IA the Queensland Government didn't.  This is also very concerning.  Does it mean the Government had no confidence in a revised business case?  We will never know without RTI access.

'Queensland rules out submitting another Cross River Rail business case'
https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/politics/queensland/queensland-rules-out-submitting-another-cross-river-rail-business-case-20190702-p523fq.html

Lack of scrutiny by RTI and a board comprised of Senior Public Servants, collectively, is a serious situation in my opinion.

The Opposition wrote recently to the Queensland Auditor General (QAG) requesting a performance audit of CRR.  We wrote to the QAG requesting similar for the NGR project.  They did nothing.  I expect they will stand off CRR as well. 

Still haven't received a reply to my query to the Department of State Development, Tourism and Innovation RTI Officer either.  Guess they can't be bothered. 

[BrizCommuter]

The lack of independent board members is extremely concerning. This will just result in secrecy and poor decision making.

[ozbob]

The lack of independent board members is extremely concerning. This will just result in secrecy and poor decision making.

The Government is very keen to hide things. 

The DGs might be very high calibre public servants BUT they are constrained by the fact that they are public servants.

We need to shine a light on it ..

CRR

   

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1289741094087823360

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1290308209207439361

[kram0]

Do you have a detailed overview of the governments current plans for the Gabba site? There was a picture on the CM website, but i'm not sure if that is official.

[paulg]

Do you have a detailed overview of the governments current plans for the Gabba site? There was a picture on the CM website, but i'm not sure if that is official.

There isn't any defined development plan yet, just an interim land use plan which doesn't have much detail: https://crossriverrail.qld.gov.au/planning-environment/priority-development-areas/woolloongabba-cross-river-rail-priority-development-area-pda/

The Council have put out the Precinct Renewal Strategy for the area around the station: https://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2020-04/20200406-woolloongabba-precinct-renewal-strategy.pdf

[kram0]

Thanks.

The image posted on the CM website mentions 'future bus' which is located further west from the current location. This would be a good addition as it will enable transfer to CRR at the Gabba station.

[paulg]

Thanks.

The image posted on the CM website mentions 'future bus' which is located further west from the current location. This would be a good addition as it will enable transfer to CRR at the Gabba station.

That's good to hear. Yes the Metro/bus station needs to be moved to be an 'in-line' station to maximise transfer opportunities between Metro and CRR

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Jonathan Sri wants land around Gabba train station to be green space

Greens councillor Jonathan Sri has proposed turning land around a new high-capacity train station in his ward into a community space.

Cr Sri, who represents the Gabba ward in Brisbane City Council, has called for the land around the new Woolloongabba train station to be turned into public space.

It comes as construction on the $5.4b project ramps up, with thousands of jobs to be created across southeast Queensland over coming years.

Plans for the precinct around the new Woolloongabba Station include around a dozen high rise towers reaching up to 30 storeys, as well as a new pedestrian bridge over Main Road to the Gabba Stadium.

But Cr Sri has called for land around the new station to instead be potentially used for public amenity, saying surrounding areas were already zoned for high rise towers.

"We want to broaden the parameters of debate and open up conversation about the many different kinds of community facilities that could be delivered on this site, from theatres, libraries and music venues to swimming spots and a massive skate park," he said.

The Greens unveiled two visions for the precinct, both of which included "space for farmers markets, sports fields, community halls and meeting spaces, and an Aboriginal cultural centre."

"One vision also proposes several hundred public housing dwellings and office space for non-profit organisations, while the other includes larger swimming lagoons, more natural green spaces and more sporting facilities," Cr Sri said.

He said the State Government shouldn't sell public land off to developers.

Cross River Rail is a megaproject that will see trains dive underground in Dutton Park, service new stations at Woolloongabba and Albert Street as well as upgrade six southside train stations and the construction of three new stops on the Gold Coast.

Construction is expected to be finished by 2024, when additional platforms at Boggo Road, Roma Street and the full time use of Exhibition Station will also open.

" ... He said the State Government shouldn't sell public land off to developers.  ... "

^

That's how they are funding it essentially Cr.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/katejonesqld/status/1290494403845296129

[verbatim9]

Couriermail --> Jonathan Sri wants land around Gabba train station to be green space

Greens councillor Jonathan Sri has proposed turning land around a new high-capacity train station in his ward into a community space.

Cr Sri, who represents the Gabba ward in Brisbane City Council, has called for the land around the new Woolloongabba train station to be turned into public space.

It comes as construction on the $5.4b project ramps up, with thousands of jobs to be created across southeast Queensland over coming years.

Plans for the precinct around the new Woolloongabba Station include around a dozen high rise towers reaching up to 30 storeys, as well as a new pedestrian bridge over Main Road to the Gabba Stadium.

But Cr Sri has called for land around the new station to instead be potentially used for public amenity, saying surrounding areas were already zoned for high rise towers.

"We want to broaden the parameters of debate and open up conversation about the many different kinds of community facilities that could be delivered on this site, from theatres, libraries and music venues to swimming spots and a massive skate park," he said.

The Greens unveiled two visions for the precinct, both of which included "space for farmers markets, sports fields, community halls and meeting spaces, and an Aboriginal cultural centre."

"One vision also proposes several hundred public housing dwellings and office space for non-profit organisations, while the other includes larger swimming lagoons, more natural green spaces and more sporting facilities," Cr Sri said.

He said the State Government shouldn't sell public land off to developers.

Cross River Rail is a megaproject that will see trains dive underground in Dutton Park, service new stations at Woolloongabba and Albert Street as well as upgrade six southside train stations and the construction of three new stops on the Gold Coast.

Construction is expected to be finished by 2024, when additional platforms at Boggo Road, Roma Street and the full time use of Exhibition Station will also open.

" ... He said the State Government shouldn't sell public land off to developers.  ... "

^

That's how they are funding it essentially Cr.

I think an Aquatic Centre would be good. It would fill the short fill with all the proposed apartments going up. But I disagree with Cr Sri apart from building a new Aquatic Centre. Hopefully with all the commercials interests the developers may contribute to a new a Aquatic Centre. Thats how good capitalism works.

[BrizCommuter]

High value land next to a train station is not the place for a farmer's market. Move along...

[Gazza]

This is the same sort of strategy i saw employed by some locals during the Oxley high school site redevelopment.

Basically, locals will dream up a laundry list of things that sound nice...Markets, aboriginal cultural centers, tafes, parks, community halls, and try to fill up the masterplan with that.
"Anything But" housing or taller buildings basically.

If you try to argue that yeah we do actually need to keep providing more housing, and that housing should be located near transport, the wedge response is that "OMG why do you hate new parks, you must be a property developer shill"

The gabba site should contain some public space of course commensurate with the number of extra residents being added.