Cross River Rail Project

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/CrossRiverRail/status/1192335919858225154

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/CrossRiverRail/status/1192691985292955649

" Turn-up-and-go >>> transport for all of SEQ "

[#Metro]

In Queensland you need virtual reality goggles to see 15 min frequency trains.

In Perth, they just turn up.

[BrizCommuter]

In Queensland you need virtual reality goggles to see 15 min frequency trains.

In Perth, they just turn up.

I wouldn't even count on 15 minutes frequencies after CRR!

[ozbob]

Completed a pre-recorded interview with Steve Austin ABC Radio Brisbane Drive host today at the ABC Studios.

Subject: Cross River Rail and the wider rail infrastructure issues.  Some discussion on R1 North and South (fast rail).

Not sure when it will be aired on the radio, but probably within the next few days.

[BrizCommuter]

Preventing Cross River Rail Fail - Scorecard
https://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2019/11/preventing-cross-river-rail-fail.html

It's not looking good!

[Fares_Fair]

Excerpt:   we get a byline..😊

Caboolture and Redcliffe Lines 12tph (each) - CONCERNING - requires ETCS from Petrie to CBD, and ideally improved track layout at Kippa-Ring. Not dependant on CRR. 4tph on Sunshine Coast Line.

Also, and we COULD get (according to the CRR website) an extra 450 seats in morning peak.
WOW (Facetious).
That's 1 train.

Just what the ninth largest region in Australia needs.

[verbatim9]

Temporary lane closures on Roma Street

A tower crane will be installed at our Roma Street site next weekend, to prepare for the demolition of Hotel Jen and the Brisbane Transit Centre. A section of the inbound lanes will be closed on Saturday 23 and Sunday 24 November. More details on expected disruptions here:  http://bit.ly/2O0VFvs

https://www.facebook.com/CrossRiverRail/photos/a.391786234513179/978436945848102/?type=3

[achiruel]

Excerpt:   we get a byline..😊

Caboolture and Redcliffe Lines 12tph (each) - CONCERNING - requires ETCS from Petrie to CBD, and ideally improved track layout at Kippa-Ring. Not dependant on CRR. 4tph on Sunshine Coast Line.

Also, and we COULD get (according to the CRR website) an extra 450 seats in morning peak.
WOW (Facetious).
That's 1 train.

Just what the ninth largest region in Australia needs.

How will the SC line get 4tph? 
Are they planning on terminating some services at Beerburrum?

Also I realise SC is 9th largest after Canberra-Queanbeyan, but I reckon if you include Caboolture-Narangba (which are effectively SC line short workings/or SC services are extensions of Caboolture these days) it'd probably rank 8th.

[ozbob]

Preventing Cross River Rail Fail - Scorecard
https://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2019/11/preventing-cross-river-rail-fail.html

It's not looking good!

Still time to turn it ..

Thanks Briz.  Sent to all outlets &

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1194686964999438336

[BrizCommuter]

^ Thank you!

[Gazza]

^ Thank you!

Brizcommuter, refer discussions on here about the necessity of tunnel stubs.
The reference design had turnouts near the train wash shed. These got deleted from the current design because they shifted the portals closer to Roma street anyway, therefore nothing needs to be built now to allow NWTC to be built.

Face it, if NTWC gets built, it won't go via Kelvin Grove, but to be honest I don't think that is "CRITICAL".

[BrizCommuter]

^ Thank you!

Brizcommuter, refer discussions on here about the necessity of tunnel stubs.
The reference design had turnouts near the train wash shed. These got deleted from the current design because they shifted the portals closer to Roma street anyway, therefore nothing needs to be built now to allow NWTC to be built.

Face it, if NTWC gets built, it won't go via Kelvin Grove, but to be honest I don't think that is "CRITICAL".

The tunnel stubs would avoid a pointless S curve and indirect routing (bypassing QUT KG and Ashgrove) as a result. It would also prevent closure of CRR for tunnel insertion if it was required. As it is almost too late to change the design then I think "critical" is appropriate.

[aldonius]

Any CRR to NWTC tunnel is never going to serve Ashgrove, it's way off the alignment and adds at least another 500m.
And Kelvin Grove while certainly desirable can be done without. It has the busway already.

[verbatim9]

Any CRR to NWTC tunnel is never going to serve Ashgrove, it's way off the alignment and adds at least another 500m.
And Kelvin Grove while certainly desirable can be done without. It has the busway already.

Ashgrove will eventually get Metro I suspect.

[ozbob]

Completed a pre-recorded interview with Steve Austin ABC Radio Brisbane Drive host today at the ABC Studios.

Subject: Cross River Rail and the wider rail infrastructure issues.  Some discussion on R1 North and South (fast rail).

Not sure when it will be aired on the radio, but probably within the next few days.

Interview on ABC Radio Brisbane Drive with host Steve Austin and Robert Dow RAIL Back On Track discussing Cross River Rail, network issues, and Gold and Sunshine Coast fast rail. 14th November 2019

Interview --> https://backontrack.org/docs/abcbris/abcbris_rd14nov19.mp3 MP3 21.4MB

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1194893961812271104

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/CrossRiverRail/status/1196684632915423236

[ozbob]

Completed a pre-recorded interview with Steve Austin ABC Radio Brisbane Drive host today at the ABC Studios.

Subject: Cross River Rail and the wider rail infrastructure issues.  Some discussion on R1 North and South (fast rail).

Not sure when it will be aired on the radio, but probably within the next few days.

Interview on ABC Radio Brisbane Drive with host Steve Austin and Robert Dow RAIL Back On Track discussing Cross River Rail, network issues, and Gold and Sunshine Coast fast rail. 14th November 2019

Interview --> https://backontrack.org/docs/abcbris/abcbris_rd14nov19.mp3 MP3 21.4MB

Interview on ABC Radio Brisbane Drive host Steve Austin with David Bannister Director at Minerva Transport Planning Company Ltd.

David critically evaluates the present CRR design,  explains the problems with the operating plan and calls for the Queensland Audit Office to review the project.

The reasons are very compelling. We support this call.

Interview --> https://backontrack.org/docs/abcbris/abcbris_db21nov19.mp3  MP3 28.1 MB

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

22nd November 2019

Cross River Rail Project - operating design flawed, call for a review by the Queensland Audit Office

Greetings,

Yesterday, the Director at Minerva Transport Planning Company Ltd, Mr David Bannister ( https://au.linkedin.com/in/davidmbannister ) was interviewed on ABC Brisbane Radio by host Steve Austin.  Mr Bannister is an experienced rail public transport planner who has previously been employed with Queensland Rail.

This was a lengthy discussion on the present iteration of Cross River Rail and why it is seriously compromised in terms of rail operations.  Mr Bannister has called for the CRR project  to be reviewed by the Queensland Audit Office, so serious are the issues raised. We strongly support this call.

Interview with David Bannister 21st Nov 2019 --> https://backontrack.org/docs/abcbris/abcbris_db21nov19.mp3  MP3 28.1 MB

This interview followed an earlier interview with Robert Dow RAIL Back On Track who raised generally the issues David Bannister expanded on in detail.

Interview on ABC Radio Brisbane Drive with host Steve Austin and Robert Dow RAIL Back On Track discussing Cross River Rail, network issues, and Gold and Sunshine Coast fast rail. 14th November 2019

Interview --> https://backontrack.org/docs/abcbris/abcbris_rd14nov19.mp3 MP3 21.4MB

Like Mr David Bannister, RAIL Back On Track wants the best outcome from Cross River Rail.  The present project's operating design is flawed.  It can be fixed and needs to be.

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1197538063842328576

[ozbob]

Facebook ...

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1197593849192833024

[Gazza]

Although it won't allow many additional trains, the biggest battle to date has been getting the government to spend the $5b to get the tunnelling machines in the part and commit to the most expensive part.

Clearly the $10b option or the $7b struggled to get across the line, and the nature of tunnelling is that you can't do it in stages like a duplication or a triplication or an extension.

The last thing I'd want is to give the LNP ammo to make a broad brush statement like "The project is a mess, Labor cant manage it, let's tear up the contracts and delay it for a few more years because we want to get it right"

Aside from the (debatable) NTWC stubs at Trouts Rd, there is nothing in the design which precludes the tunnel being used to capacity in future years.

Though I do congratulate  David Bannister for calling out these issues, what are the low cost tweaks we could do for now to get it working acceptably?  Things like the 3rd platform at Manly probably fall into this category.

[timh]

The last thing I'd want is to give the LNP ammo to make a broad brush statement like "The project is a mess, Labor cant manage it, let's tear up the contracts and delay it for a few more years because we want to get it right"

Aside from the (debatable) NTWC stubs at Trouts Rd, there is nothing in the design which precludes the tunnel being used to capacity in future years.

Though I do congratulate  David Bannister for calling out these issues, what are the low cost tweaks we could do for now to get it working acceptably?  Things like the 3rd platform at Manly probably fall into this category.

Agree with the first part of your statement that I don't want them to take our criticism as grounds to scrap the whole project. Getting this done in it's current state is better than nothing.

However, in addition the the NWTC stubs, the other problem I see with the tunnel is the decision to tunnel at Dutton Park instead of Yeerongpilly. That has the potential to severely limit core capacity, especially if/when Beaudesert line opens.

Aside from the 3rd platform at Manly, a relatively "low cost" improvement would be a surface quad track from Salisbury-Dutton Park. It's still very expensive but would be extremely helpful for future capacity in lieu of the longer tunnel.

[ozbob]

I have read David's submissions. David is a strong supporter of Cross River Rail (as are most of us).  Basically fixing up the track layout north of the tunnel so that there is operational flexibility and redundancy, trains coming down from the north on the mains could use either Cross River Rail or the mains through the CBD.  Have a look at the discussion papers here > https://au.linkedin.com/in/davidmbannister There are some issues with Clapham as well.  Things external to CRR itself are fixing Beenleigh station, Manly station, Kuraby to Beenleigh amplification (request to IA is in on that).  LX removals. I would like to see ETCS extended to Caboolture.  I think that would help a lot with the loss of OTR on that line (and Kippa-Ring), also impacts on Sunshine Coast Line.

David has had to go public because there was no response effectively to the very detailed submissions he put in as part of the change consultation.  There is probably no one that has the deep knowledge of CRR operations that he has.

This is last grasp stuff now.   WE DO NOT WANT ANOTHER RAIL DEBACLE.  Simple.

[kram0]

Do you think these concerns will be picked up by The Courier Mail to bring it into the main stream media? Only then will the government stand up and listen.

[ozbob]

Do you think these concerns will be picked up by The Courier Mail to bring it into the main stream media? Only then will the government stand up and listen.

Possibly ...

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Designs for Cross River Rail will add no capacity: Former QR infrastructure manager

A former senior manager at Queensland Rail has slammed the State Government's Cross River Rail project, saying a design flaw would leave the network with no new capacity, and creating a "bottleneck" at a crucial point on Brisbane's northside.

PUBLIC transport advocates are calling for an urgent review of Cross River Rail following a scathing assessment by a former Queensland Rail expert.

David Bannister, who was involved in Cross River Rail between 2010 and 2016, told media the current design for the $6 billion project would add no capacity to Brisbane's train network.

Mr Bannister said new design documents released in June showed every train from Redcliffe and the Sunshine Coast would be forced into the Cross River Rail tunnels, creating a traffic jam of trains.

"Immediately if all these trains are being funnelled into Cross River Rail, we can't get the 30 trains per hour that was included in the business case," he said.

"We're talking about six trains per hour, or about 25 per cent of the capacity is disappeared."

Mr Bannister said previous designs from 2017 had allowed Sunshine Coast and Redcliffe trains to split between Albion and Bowen Hills, allowing six more trains per hour through the inner city.

"The original business case talked about having up to 30 trains per hour coming from the North Coast line and Kippa Ring line," he said.

"In the most recent release of the infrastructure in June, the track layouts do not allow that to occur anymore."

He said the defects needed to be referred to the Queensland Audit Office.

Mr Bannister worked at QR in coordinating infrastructure, including Cross River Rail, for six years before leaving to become involved in Sydney's driverless Metro train project in 2016.

Following the bombshell interview, public transport advocate Robert Dow called for an urgent review of Cross River Rail.

"What they've got to do is review urgently the network operating plan," Mr Dow said. "Change what they're going to do, because it's just not satisfactory."

A Cross River Rail Delivery Authority spokesman said the design had been extensively modelled by the Department of Transport and Main Roads, Queensland Rail and the private sector.

"Queenslanders can have a high level of confidence that the project's design and planning is robust because it has evolved and been improved over the past decade since the original concept was first floated," the spokesman said.

The spokesman however seemingly ruled out any further changes to the design.

"It is very important to understand that the Coordinator General has approved the Cross River Rail project to proceed in its final design," he said.

[timh]

Couriermail --> Designs for Cross River Rail will add no capacity: Former QR infrastructure manager

A former senior manager at Queensland Rail has slammed the State Government's Cross River Rail project, saying a design flaw would leave the network with no new capacity, and creating a "bottleneck" at a crucial point on Brisbane's northside.

PUBLIC transport advocates are calling for an urgent review of Cross River Rail following a scathing assessment by a former Queensland Rail expert.

David Bannister, who was involved in Cross River Rail between 2010 and 2016, told media the current design for the $6 billion project would add no capacity to Brisbane's train network.

Mr Bannister said new design documents released in June showed every train from Redcliffe and the Sunshine Coast would be forced into the Cross River Rail tunnels, creating a traffic jam of trains.

"Immediately if all these trains are being funnelled into Cross River Rail, we can't get the 30 trains per hour that was included in the business case," he said.

"We're talking about six trains per hour, or about 25 per cent of the capacity is disappeared."

Mr Bannister said previous designs from 2017 had allowed Sunshine Coast and Redcliffe trains to split between Albion and Bowen Hills, allowing six more trains per hour through the inner city.

"The original business case talked about having up to 30 trains per hour coming from the North Coast line and Kippa Ring line," he said.

"In the most recent release of the infrastructure in June, the track layouts do not allow that to occur anymore."

He said the defects needed to be referred to the Queensland Audit Office.

Mr Bannister worked at QR in coordinating infrastructure, including Cross River Rail, for six years before leaving to become involved in Sydney's driverless Metro train project in 2016.

Following the bombshell interview, public transport advocate Robert Dow called for an urgent review of Cross River Rail.

"What they've got to do is review urgently the network operating plan," Mr Dow said. "Change what they're going to do, because it's just not satisfactory."

A Cross River Rail Delivery Authority spokesman said the design had been extensively modelled by the Department of Transport and Main Roads, Queensland Rail and the private sector.

"Queenslanders can have a high level of confidence that the project's design and planning is robust because it has evolved and been improved over the past decade since the original concept was first floated," the spokesman said.

The spokesman however seemingly ruled out any further changes to the design.

"It is very important to understand that the Coordinator General has approved the Cross River Rail project to proceed in its final design," he said.

So clearly I haven't understood the track layout at Mayne from the plans. Are you saying there's literally no points to cross from the CRR tracks to the Bowen hills/Central etc. tracks at any point between Bowen Hills/Breakfast creek?? That seems like such a tiny detail to leave out and remarkably simple to put back in... I'm assuming it's more complicated than that though :/

[ozbob]

This is shaping up like a re-run of the NGR debacle. 

In 2015 we and others raised the fact there were design problems with the NGRs. 
They denied there were any issues. Two years later they finally conceded that there were.

Confronted with in depth operational analyses by a person who understands well the
operational situation with respect to Cross River Rail  they are again in denial. 

Maybe in two years the penny will drop, hey we got it wrong. 

Crikey, going to have spend some big moolah to fix it up.

Circus sadly ..

[ozbob]

Tim, you need to look at David Bannister's documents.  Basically the suburbans will be at around 25% capacity, the mains constrained to 24 trains per hour (up from 20).  There is a loss of operational flexibility consequently loss of redundancy  and a mis-match in the line group capacities. 

They have changed the operating plan from what was originally done in 2017.  IA has probably not been informed either.

There have always been some doubts with the 2017 CRR.  A project that was at the highest priority project (2012) is now ranked as a high priority initiative (2019).  Which is why IA will not fund.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Jeffrey_Addison/status/1197705495403880449

[timh]

Tim, you need to look at David Bannister's documents.  Basically the suburbans will be at around 25% capacity, the mains constrained to 24 trains per hour (up from 20).  There is a loss of operational flexibility consequently loss of redundancy  and a mis-match in the line group capacities. 

They have changed the operating plan from what was originally done in 2017.  IA has probably not been informed either.

There have always been some doubts with the 2017 CRR.  A project that was at the highest priority project (2012) is now ranked as a high priority initiative (2019).  Which is why IA will not fund.

Thanks Bob, I'll definitely take a look. Always trying to get better understanding of this stuff

[Stillwater]

IA signed off on a project that had value and produced a good BCR.  They downgraded the project in the list of priority projects when the scope of works changed. The feds did not put money towards the revised project. Instead, they have kept their powder dry to invest in other projects in Queensland that will generate good returns for the dollars outlaid.

Mr Bannister seems to be saying that the state government is investing $5.4b (100 per cent funded by the state government) in a (revised) project that has limited benefits and certainly not those that were captured in the original project signed off by IA.

Minister Bailey can't keep peddling the spin that IA signed off on this CRR project, for the reason that it is substantially different from the first.

[kram0]

Bailey should of been sacked years ago. He literally has no clue at all.

This could end up being a $8B white elephant when taking into consideration the private sectors money. What a waste. The reality is David mentioned you would repair many aspects of the projects for not a whole lot more money when you look at the total costs.

The two priorities

1: Need tunnel stubs

2: fix up the northern entry.

Maybe $200m at best. Disgusted .

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

23rd November 2019

Re: Cross River Rail Project - operating design flawed, call for a review by the Queensland Audit Office

Good Morning,

Well worth noting that in 2015, we and others raised the fact there were design problems with the New Generation Rollingstock trains.
The transport authorities denied there were any issues. Two years later the transport authorities finally conceded that there were issues, and it is now costing around $335 million dollars to sort the non DDA compliant trains. Money that could have been used to progress the upgrade of the Sunshine Coast line north of Beerburrum for example.

It was reported yesterday that:

' A Cross River Rail Delivery Authority spokesman said the design had been extensively modelled by the Department of Transport and Main Roads, Queensland Rail and the private sector.

"Queenslanders can have a high level of confidence that the project's design and planning is robust because it has evolved and been improved over the past decade since the original concept was first floated," the spokesman said.

The spokesman however seemingly ruled out any further changes to the design.

"It is very important to understand that the Coordinator General has approved the Cross River Rail project to proceed in its final design," he said.'

https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/designs-for-cross-river-rail-will-add-no-capacity-former-qr-infrastructure-manager/news-story/bf54b093d973c344ae43d41471d8dfa4

Confronted with in depth operational analyses by a person who understands well the operational situation with respect to Cross River Rail  the transport authorities are again in denial.

In a two years time we do not want an acknowledgement ' hey we got the service plan wrong, going to cost a lot of money to fix it '.

It is imperative that the CRR service plan be reviewed NOW.  Before more Queensland citizens money is wasted down the gutter of incompetence.

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Sent to all outlets:

22nd November 2019

Cross River Rail Project - operating design flawed, call for a review by the Queensland Audit Office

Greetings,

Yesterday, the Director at Minerva Transport Planning Company Ltd, Mr David Bannister ( https://au.linkedin.com/in/davidmbannister ) was interviewed on ABC Brisbane Radio by host Steve Austin.  Mr Bannister is an experienced rail public transport planner who has previously been employed with Queensland Rail.

This was a lengthy discussion on the present iteration of Cross River Rail and why it is seriously compromised in terms of rail operations.  Mr Bannister has called for the CRR project  to be reviewed by the Queensland Audit Office, so serious are the issues raised. We strongly support this call.

Interview with David Bannister 21st Nov 2019 --> https://backontrack.org/docs/abcbris/abcbris_db21nov19.mp3  MP3 28.1 MB

This interview followed an earlier interview with Robert Dow RAIL Back On Track who raised generally the issues David Bannister expanded on in detail.

Interview on ABC Radio Brisbane Drive with host Steve Austin and Robert Dow RAIL Back On Track discussing Cross River Rail, network issues, and Gold and Sunshine Coast fast rail. 14th November 2019

Interview --> https://backontrack.org/docs/abcbris/abcbris_rd14nov19.mp3 MP3 21.4MB

Like Mr David Bannister, RAIL Back On Track wants the best outcome from Cross River Rail.  The present project's operating design is flawed.  It can be fixed and needs to be.

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[#Metro]

Queenslanders can't have confidence. TMR has a history of being involved in botched projects such as RPL and NGR.

[ozbob]

Queenslanders can't have confidence. TMR has a history of being involved in botched projects such as RPL and NGR.

And key TMR personnel who were front and centre with previous bungles have now moved on to CRR.  Hardly confidence building.

I have more confidence in our woofer Missy.  She has the smarts ...

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1197960082924826626