Cross River Rail Project

[ozbob]

Just completed a pre-recorded interview with Host Kelly Higgins-Devine ABC Radio Brisbane Drive re Cross River Rail and the need to start considering that fact that we will need a further ~ 50 six car trains by 2024 ( or when CRR opens ) and sufficient train crew.  Discussed the option briefly of NGRs and some of the possible political obstacles that could be in the way.  I think it will be replayed during the show this afternoon possibly following an interview with the DP.  Unable to do the interview live as I have some family committments later this afternoon.

I think most are aware that the initial plan for the NGRs was 100 six car trains, that got cut to 75 around 2013.

Government needs to outline what they are going do to ensure sufficient trains to operate CRR and the rest of the network with the improved frequencies.  We do not want ...  Cross River Rail Fail ! 

The total cost of a further 50 NGRs would be in the order of $3 billion ( including 32 years maintenance ).

[paulg]

Brisbanetimes --> 'Going it alone': Cross River Rail pushes ahead without federal funds

"They will save 15 minutes on the Gold Coast line, 15 minutes on the Beenleigh line, eight minutes on the Caboolture line, eight minutes on the Redcliffe line and 14 minutes on the Cleveland Line.

Where would the 14 min saving on the Cleveland line come from?

[Gazza]

Yeah I don't get that.
Roma St to Park Rd takes 10 mins.
Central to Park Rd takes 13 mins.

You might do Park Rd to Albert St in 4-5 mins, so perhaps you might save a few minutes if you switch to Using Albert St in Lieu of Central?

What about the whole route?
Albion to Park Rd is 23 mins... Can't see that being cut by 15 mins to 7?

[SurfRail]

The time saving probably includes reduced walking or transferring time to get from the existing CBD stations to Gardens Point, so it would be a combo of:
- Delete 13 minutes on the train from Park Road to Central
- Add 5 minutes on the train and say 3 minutes average transfer time
- Save 10 minutes walking to Gardens Point or waiting for a bus

Net benefit = 14-15 minutes

Mind you this ignores getting off the train at South Bank and walking over the bridge which is probably still slower but not as slow as going all the way to Central and back down through the city on foot.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/CrossRiverRail/status/1113690809860104192

[Stillwater]

Bill Shorten has brought down Labor's alternative Budget.  The polls tell us that Labor will win next month's general election. That means federal Labor will pump $2.23 billion into Cross River Rail, freeing up -- so we are told by Jackie Trad et al -- an equivalent $2.23 billion in committed state funding to other rail projects.  It is critical that Ms Trad to spell out what those projects are and what the carve-up of funding to them is.  She will stand with federal Labor luminaries during the federal election campaign at Redbank Plains, at Yarrabilba, at Beaudesert and Landsborough and say that as a result of federal Labor spending on CRR, these projects will proceed under State Labor much sooner than planned.

Or will she?

Could it be that the state doesn't have the $2.23 billion to be displaced, such that this sum actually represents a shortfall in project spending so far kept hidden?

The federal election campaign will reveal the truth.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1113827019383382016

[ozbob]

Just completed a pre-recorded interview with Host Kelly Higgins-Devine ABC Radio Brisbane Drive re Cross River Rail and the need to start considering that fact that we will need a further ~ 50 six car trains by 2024 ( or when CRR opens ) and sufficient train crew.  Discussed the option briefly of NGRs and some of the possible political obstacles that could be in the way.  I think it will be replayed during the show this afternoon possibly following an interview with the DP.  Unable to do the interview live as I have some family committments later this afternoon.

I think most are aware that the initial plan for the NGRs was 100 six car trains, that got cut to 75 around 2013.

Government needs to outline what they are going do to ensure sufficient trains to operate CRR and the rest of the network with the improved frequencies.  We do not want ...  Cross River Rail Fail ! 

The total cost of a further 50 NGRs would be in the order of $3 billion ( including 32 years maintenance ).

Interview with Deputy Premier Jackie Trad host Kelly Higgins-Devine ABC Brisbane Radio Drive 4th April 2019. 
My pre-recorded interview wasn't played but was used to inform the interview with the DP.

Interview --> https://backontrack.org/docs/abcbris/abcbris_jt4apr19.mp3  MP3 17.2 MB

Kelly does ask the right questions.  We all have real concerns as the implementation of a new timetable for a branch line (Kippa-Ring) broke the rail network.  Cross River Rail, orders of magnitude greater, must be set up right with crew and trains ..

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1113876383317381120

[Stillwater]

Kelly H-D: We have a 'turn up and hope they come' train service. 

[ozbob]

Kelly H-D: We have a 'turn up and hope they come' train service. 

Yes,  a nice touch in response to the DP's ' turn up and go '  rhetoric



But seriously, to get the ' turn up and go network ' there has to be frequency improvements on all lines.   I hope this prod re train numbers and crew is taken seriously up top.  We do not want another rail meltdown. 

NOW IS THE HOUR !



Consider this.  How will they be able to run 5 minute frequency on the Gold Coast line in peaks with the existing infrastructure constraints particularly between Kuraby and Beenleigh and Beenleigh station itself?   There are a lot of further infrastructure upgrades needed all over the network to achieve the TUAG rail network ...   

[kram0]

Wow, Trad was not exactly sounding confident with her answers. Many boxes to tick before this city has a true turn up and go service like Perth, 7 days a week.

Let's hope with Bob's persistence, they can get the house in order by 2024.

[nathandavid88]

Has anyone noticed, on the newly released video flythrough there is a new Albert Street Northern entrance indicated, located just down from the Elizabeth Street intersection where the Time Zone arcade and Guzman e Gomez are currently. This is the first I have heard of that.

[Gazza]

Could it be that the state doesn't have the $2.23 billion to be displaced, such that this sum actually represents a shortfall in project spending so far kept hidden?

The federal election campaign will reveal the truth.

They were borrowing to pay for CRR right?
So if Bill gives more money, they'd borrow less

[Stillwater]

I'll get in first .... It is tradition to give boring machines a name.  The first boring machine to be put to work on CRR should be christened 'Robert'.

[ozbob]

I'll get in first .... It is tradition to give boring machines a name.  The first boring machine to be put to work on CRR should be christened 'Robert'.

Custom is female names.  Roberta would be acceptable 

As in Roberta Flack ...   

[SurfRail]

Has anyone noticed, on the newly released video flythrough there is a new Albert Street Northern entrance indicated, located just down from the Elizabeth Street intersection where the Time Zone arcade and Guzman e Gomez are currently. This is the first I have heard of that.

That's going to significantly improve the amenity given it is literally throwing distance from the QSM and the QSBS.  Excellent move.

Maybe the CRRDA should form the nucleus of a new transport agency that takes on everything, it seems to be substantially better operated than anything else in the transport cluster (operative word being "cluster").

[ozbob]

Just completed a pre-recorded interview with Host Kelly Higgins-Devine ABC Radio Brisbane Drive re Cross River Rail and the need to start considering that fact that we will need a further ~ 50 six car trains by 2024 ( or when CRR opens ) and sufficient train crew.  Discussed the option briefly of NGRs and some of the possible political obstacles that could be in the way.  I think it will be replayed during the show this afternoon possibly following an interview with the DP.  Unable to do the interview live as I have some family committments later this afternoon.

I think most are aware that the initial plan for the NGRs was 100 six car trains, that got cut to 75 around 2013.

Government needs to outline what they are going do to ensure sufficient trains to operate CRR and the rest of the network with the improved frequencies.  We do not want ...  Cross River Rail Fail ! 

The total cost of a further 50 NGRs would be in the order of $3 billion ( including 32 years maintenance ).

Interview with Deputy Premier Jackie Trad host Kelly Higgins-Devine ABC Brisbane Radio Drive 4th April 2019. 
My pre-recorded interview wasn't played but was used to inform the interview with the DP.

Interview --> https://backontrack.org/docs/abcbris/abcbris_jt4apr19.mp3  MP3 17.2 MB

Kelly does ask the right questions.  We all have real concerns as the implementation of a new timetable for a branch line (Kippa-Ring) broke the rail network.  Cross River Rail, orders of magnitude greater, must be set up right with crew and trains ..

The interview that I pre-recorded on the 4th April 2019 was played this afternoon (5th).

Interview with Robert Dow RBoT and Kelly Higgins-Devine ABC Radio Brisbane Drive discussing additional trains needed for Cross River Rail
2024 and network.

Here --> https://backontrack.org/docs/abcbris/abcbris_rd4apr19.mp3  MP3  6.7 MB

Follow on interview with spokesperson from the Gabba Business Association Suzanne Bosanquet and Kelly Higgins-Devine ABC Radio Brisbane Drive re some concerns from the local business perspective.

Here --> https://backontrack.org/docs/abcbris/abcbris_sb5apr19.mp3  MP3 8.5 MB

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1114107032942985216

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1115634071919419396

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/CrossRiverRail/status/1116220211756093441

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/CrossRiverRail/status/1117668961183764481

[Stillwater]

Read the fine print:

'Concept visualisation only - Not final.'

Didn't these people heed to moral of the fairy tale 'The Emperor Has No Clothes'?

The plan has no substance.  These people believe their own bullsh%t.

It is a fantasy.  The final concept likely to be less grand.  The government will explain the scaling back as being due to 'lack of federal funding' or some other excuse.

[ozbob]

The Fifth Estate --> Queensland's big infrastructure spend in Brisbane and what it means

As one of Australia's fastest growing cities, Brisbane has faced more than its fair share of growing pains. South Brisbane's population is expected to treble by 2031, while Greater Brisbane's will rise to 2.95 million.

Anticipating this dramatic population surge, the Palaszczuk Labor government has begun substantial infrastructure projects, committing to a $944 million urban Metro service and a $5.4 billion second Cross River Rail project to be tunnelled under the Brisbane River.

Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk has claimed the project will provide 7700 jobs, with construction set to begin by mid 2019.

But as with any transport infrastructure project on this scale, the government's big spend has attracted some very bad press.

Its $4.4 billion purchase of a new rail fleet was delivered two years late, cost an extra $150 million and did not conform to state disability laws. It was later followed by an inquiry that cost another $45 million. Chris Hale, a transport strategist and urban economist told The Fifth Estate in an earlier story that the Metro service is not a well thought out project.

"It doesn't make sense," he told The Fifth Estate. "I think they've come up with the word Metro without specifying what they really want to do, like an election commitment."

The latest furore has been a long running dispute over the viability of the CRR project, a bold initiative to future proof Brisbane's inner city rail network with an extra 10 kilometres of track, five new stations and a 5.9 kilometre tunnel.

First announced by the Beattie Labor government in 2007, it was embraced by the Palaszczuk government in 2017 with initial funding of $2.81 billion over the next four years.

That figure has now grown to a $5.4 billion.

Serious misgivings on the cross river rail project

The decision to go ahead with a second cross river rail project attracted formidable resistance from the federal government and Queensland's LNP opposition. That was bolstered by Infrastructure Australia's misgivings as to the business model adopted for this enormous project.

IA's report concluded that the projected estimates of growing rail patronage were exaggerated by a factor of seven and misjudged the passenger capacity of the network.

These criticisms were seized upon by One Nation's Queensland leader Steve Dickson, whose specious claim that IA had stated the project was not required till 2036 was debunked by the ABC. Despite its reservations, IA retained the project on its Infrastructure Priority List.

But Dickson's claims added to the government's headaches, as the Feds withheld funding aid from the project. More disasters were in store – the opposition has claimed the project is eight months behind schedule and a major building proponent had its building licence temporarily suspended by the Queensland Building and Construction Commission, after it failed to satisfy financial requirements.

Residents are not happy – half of promised improvements are carried out and not the bits that help them

Brisbane Residents United spokesperson Elizabeth Handley says the loss of green space and increase in high density apartments, particularly around Woolongabba, will mean a drastic decrease in resident's quality of life, as well as the quality of actual constructions.

"They've implemented half of the things you're supposed to do with high density building and that is the bit that makes developers money, but they haven't implemented the part that makes those developments liveable.

"If you want people to move into high density areas, you need to make those areas attractive for people to want to live. It's distressing that we've taken the foot off the pedal of regulation so much that poor quality development is the norm.

"We do need a range of housing options but we all need areas we can go to for a walk or kick a ball, rather than assess constructions on just how much yield we can get out of these buildings, yields that are projected to be higher than in Singapore, in this instance."

But with the demand for Brisbane's rail services forecast to triple by 2036, it was clear that something had to be done.

But there are much wider social benefits

Warren Rowe is the former Director of Planning, Environment and Transport at the City of Gold Coast. He has a wide understanding of public transport projects like the CRR, including transport infrastructure projects in Sydney. He's in no doubt that Brisbane needs a project like the CRR.

"The viability issue is one that would be assessed in terms of costs and benefits," he told The Fifth Estate.

"But these projects, as we've seen nationally are starting to be judged, not purely on the basis of transport benefits, but on a broader suite of benefits that ultimately point to improved urban renewal city building outcomes.

"As we've seen in NSW with the significant infrastructure spend that's going on there, the benefits of this sort of investment in infrastructure are profound in supporting the development of catalytic projects that not only improve transport outcomes, but are part of an opportunity to improve the city building outcomes and that's what they're now being judged on.

"Transport benefits for the CRR are often talked about as being just for the CBD, but really the benefits are much broader. They really are network wide and the impacts of the project as a key piece of the public transport network are going to be felt well north, well south, and well west."

The main source of criticism centred on the media-fuelled assumption that the CRR was a project that would only benefit inner city people, as that is where the project would manifest. The government's contention was that it would increase capacity across the entire transport network and that once the initial investment was made, that it would be a region and city shaping land use strategy that would provide a significant social dividend.

We are still struggling to convey just what a change in opportunities and accessibility to future jobs, services and education this project represents

Associate professor Matthew Burke of the Griffith University transport research team says that misapprehension was a key factor in the project's poor PR performance.

"It shows we are still struggling to convey just what a change in opportunities and accessibility to future jobs, services and education this project represents," he said.

"The largest set of beneficiaries are the million or more people clustered along the Cleveland, Beenleigh and Gold Coast lines and along the future Flagstone rail line."

"Gold Coast residents, for instance, will be about 20 minutes closer to the Queensland Parliament building or QUT Gardens Point campus, or Eagle Street Pier, by public transport. They will have a reduced run time into the CBD and enjoy the better station location at Albert Street. That's a very significant change in accessibility unlocked by the project."

Warren Rowe contends that IA's assessment of the project's viability may have been based on faulty criteria.

"I'm not really across the details of their assessments, but it's been difficult to really pin down the specific concerns of IA – again when you look at how IA have dealt with similar projects in NSW and Victoria, you have to ask, what are the major differences?

"Their assessments would suggest that they've judged the CRR heavily on the transport outcomes of the project and clearly projects of this type need to ensure they do satisfy those demand requirements of providing additional capacity and patronage.

"I'm aware there's been significant modelling done by the Queensland government to underpin some of those assessments and I assume in assessing these projects IA have utilised their own figures.

"The interesting thing about patronage modelling is it comes back to the assumptions that you make about modelling and we've seen recent examples here in Queensland where some of the projections about traffic and revenues resulting from traffic have not proved to be as the modelling suggested.

"Again that goes back to what were the assumptions made in determining those figures."

Infrastructure Australia assessment may well have skewed results

Paul Burton, director of the Cities Research Institute at Griffith University agrees that an assessment by IA may well have had skewed results.

"Cost benefit analysis is not a precise science," he observed. "Everyone comes up with different outcomes by tweaking variables and assumptions. It's always a combination of scientific principles and political priorities."

Rowe says that the CRR's $5.4 billion price tag, as benchmarked against similar projects currently underway in Australia "sounds about right". Perth's public transport plan investment for 2031 comes in at a total of $4.1 billion, with lower population growth projections.

Meanwhile the headaches continue for the CRR, with a major 91-storey high rise development in trouble as its projected earthworks have been found to be impacting on the route of the tunnel. But Paul Burton says any such impediments will be outweighed by the benefits of Brisbane's expanded infrastructure ambitions.

"As a project I think it's a political challenge to see these developments in a wider context. Not to see Brisbane as a distinct political entity but as the largest and most significant component of Southeast Queensland.

"We've got a SE Queensland regional plan and a city deal in the making and this is a key piece of infrastructure which aligns with both pretty well. This project is in the centre of Brisbane but it will have an impact not just as a congestion buster and productivity improver, but will have benefits across a wider area. It's a pinch point for the whole of the SE Queensland region and getting rid of that pinch point will improve the connectivity of the whole region."

[ozbob]

^
Couple of comments.  The first part of the article is confusing, Hale was talking about the ' Brisbane Metro ' not Cross River Rail.

The NGR rectification costs are $361 million (not $150 million as stated in the article).  Chris Hale is a supporter of Cross River Rail.

[Stillwater]

Despite the big spend on CRR, Queensland Government's infrastructure spend is trending downwards and is significantly less than Victoria or NSW.

https://infrastructure.org.au/chart-group/government-infrastructure-investment

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/CrossRiverRail/status/1126314611534442496

[ozbob]

LOL the LNP aren't going to spend any money in QLD. They don't need to.
If they are to spend money anywhere it will be in Victoria.

CRR will probably have to be cancelled

The lacking of Federal funding, particularly when you look at the many billions going to other states is cause for concern.

They are starving Queensland if you like.  I have been somewhat concerned about CRR for a while now.  If they are struggling to fund the cost of the CRR project itself ~ 4.4 $ billion, how are they going to fund the required extra trains/crew and secondary infrastructure needed to properly support CRR and the projected service frequencies?  BrizCommuter has covered it well here > Cross River Rail Fail - Another Year Closer!

Shaping up as another ' half baked ' disaster, very typical of this jurisdiction sadly ..

[kram0]

I cannot see CRR being cancelled as Jackie and Anna would absolutely not lose face on 'Queensland's number one project'. I do however see other projects getting scaled back so funding will be available to finish CRR. Let's also not forget the private sector will be paying for a decent percentage of this project.

I was at the Greek festival on the weekend and the staff member talking about CRR on the stand was saying frequency would be 5 min peak and 10 min off peak 7 days. I would like to know more information on how they plan to achieve this.

[ozbob]

See BrizCommuter's blog post.  Those service frequencies are simply not achievable unless a lot more wider network improvements, and more trains/crew ... ie. if you want to operate services on the rest of the network!   

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/BrendanDonohoe7/status/1130275771656708096

Fuking incredible.  The Feds are happy to give Vic billions for a road they don't want ...

[timh]

https://twitter.com/BrendanDonohoe7/status/1130275771656708096

Fuking incredible.  The Feds are happy to give Vic billions for a road they don't want ...

We'll take it!!!

[HappyTrainGuy]

See BrizCommuter's blog post.  Those service frequencies are simply not achievable unless a lot more wider network improvements, and more trains/crew ... ie. if you want to operate services on the rest of the network!   

It's also known that frequency cuts are planned in favour of longer rollingstock ie coastal services.

[ozbob]

See BrizCommuter's blog post.  Those service frequencies are simply not achievable unless a lot more wider network improvements, and more trains/crew ... ie. if you want to operate services on the rest of the network!   

It's also known that frequency cuts are planned in favour of longer rollingstock ie coastal services.

Why are they spinning the frequencies they are?  One wonders, if anyone really knows what the service outcomes will be.   

[James]

CRR won't be cancelled, the contracts have been awarded and will be signed shortly. The government would need to pay financial compensation if they tore up the contracts now - hundreds of millions to build nothing at all.

They will go into debt, or defer other projects, before that happens.

[SABB]

CRR won't be cancelled, the contracts have been awarded and will be signed shortly. The government would need to pay financial compensation if they tore up the contracts now - hundreds of millions to build nothing at all.

They will go into debt, or defer other projects, before that happens.

Isn't that what Dan Andrews did (at a cost of $1B) and Dan went on to win the next state election easily.

[verbatim9]

CRR won't be cancelled, the contracts have been awarded and will be signed shortly. The government would need to pay financial compensation if they tore up the contracts now - hundreds of millions to build nothing at all.

They will go into debt, or defer other projects, before that happens.

Isn't that what Dan Andrews did (at a cost of $1B) and Dan went on to win the next state election easily.

It also would be political suicide. They were voted in with the promise to build CRR.

[HappyTrainGuy]

See BrizCommuter's blog post.  Those service frequencies are simply not achievable unless a lot more wider network improvements, and more trains/crew ... ie. if you want to operate services on the rest of the network!   

It's also known that frequency cuts are planned in favour of longer rollingstock ie coastal services.

Why are they spinning the frequencies they are?  One wonders, if anyone really knows what the service outcomes will be.   

AFAIR it was going to be something like 7-10 min frequency before capping the peak frequency which would give more capacity for more infill services. But it remains how long before the infill services require capping
Of the coastal services.

[STB]

There's been some drawings and changes that have been uploaded to the CRR website, with community consultation happening until June.

Of note - the existing busway platforms at Roma Street will be lowered and placed underground (likely that the existing bus services will be diverted to Roma Street itself during construction).

Woolloongabba station has been moved a bit further back to manage crowds from the Gabba.

All the stations from Sailsbury to Dutton Park will have a 3rd platform built, so it'll be 3 tracks from Dutton Park all the way to Kuraby (hopefully in the future that will increase to 4 tracks), and also interestingly a couple of new pedestrian bridges, the PA hospital one is already known, but there's also one planned at Moorooka over the yards.

Oh and the demolition of the Hotel Jen etc, was approved back in March.  Frankly I can't wait to see the Sir Joh block of concrete eyesore knocked down.

[kram0]

http://eisdocs.dsdip.qld.gov.au/Cross%20River%20Rail/project-change-4/Volume%201/Volume%201%20Request%20for%20project%20change%204%20application.pdf