Cross River Rail Project

[SurfRail]

But we are talking about QR here. Let's assume that the CRR tunnel for whatever reason becomes 'unavailable' due to an event (could be flooding, crash, fire, dodgy installation of track,  signal fault, trespass). What happens next?

What happens if any of this happens and we have paid for it all upfront out of cash?

[ozbob]

^^ A consequence of the 24-hour news cycle ... the 'balance' comes in subsequent articles.  It will be interesting to see the LNP's reaction to this, especially since they are the party of free enterprise.  CRR was always going to require a private sector funding component -- perhaps the Korean dollars forms that component.  Interesting also that Brisbane Times is reporting the possibility of a levy on those property owners along the route of the CRR -- a form of betterment tax.  Presumably this would raise the interest payments for any Korean loan.

Trad's statement does not specify the interest rate at which Korean money could be borrowed, nor does she state the 'upper limit' of the line of credit.  No statement about the effects of this deal on Queensland's credit rating etc.

Will this deal allow for an immediate start on CRR, while feds digest the business case to see whether they will buy in?

Anna Palaszczuk has to come out now and state the list of projects that could be funded from this deal and just what the terms are.  Presumably the Koreans will consider each investment opportunity on a case by case basis.

No doubt the Katters will be interested in this.  They have been calling for a Queensland Development Bank.  They might get a bit xenophobic at the thought of that role being performed by an overseas, Korean entity.

Yo.  We wait and see hey?

LNP's position on this will be interesting indeed.   Will they go political or realistic?

[tazzer9]

Why don't we design CCR to be capable of hauling coal trains through it.  Full funding would approved overnight and a there would be a rush on building to it the highest standards as soon as possible.

[verbatim9]

Why don't we design CCR to be capable of hauling coal trains through it.  Full funding would approved overnight and a there would be a rush on building to it the highest standards as soon as possible.

The only modification that I would like to see with CRR3 is HSR ready with guage covertable or dual guage sleepers laid at construction.

[tazzer9]

Why don't we design CCR to be capable of hauling coal trains through it.  Full funding would approved overnight and a there would be a rush on building to it the highest standards as soon as possible.

The only modification that I would like to see with CRR3 is HSR ready with guage covertable or dual guage sleepers laid at construction.

Yep, 100% agree with being fully gauge convertible.  I would also add that it should be built to a generous loading gauge (ideally the current NSW standard) just so it will never become the weak link in chain in the future.  Its also so MSR to the gold coast, sunshine coast and possibly toowoomba can run through it.
HSR would probably need to be separate as i highly doubt that any high speed trains will be 160m or less. Just look at sydney and how they need to cater for their v sets because they can't fit into many stations.

[ozbob]

Twitter

Robert Dow ‏@Robert_Dow 18m

Wow the Cross River Rail discussion forum thread has just moved onto its 100th page ... been a while hey?

> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=2034.0 ... #qldpol

[verbatim9]

Why don't we design CCR to be capable of hauling coal trains through it.  Full funding would approved overnight and a there would be a rush on building to it the highest standards as soon as possible.

The only modification that I would like to see with CRR3 is HSR ready with guage covertable or dual guage sleepers laid at construction.

Yep, 100% agree with being fully gauge convertible.  I would also add that it should be built to a generous loading gauge (ideally the current NSW standard) just so it will never become the weak link in chain in the future.  Its also so MSR to the gold coast, sunshine coast and possibly toowoomba can run through it.
HSR would probably need to be separate as i highly doubt that any high speed trains will be 160m or less. Just look at sydney and how they need to cater for their v sets because they can't fit into many stations.

HSR doesn't need to stop at stations throughout the tunnel but only utilise the tunnel as an alternative route.

[tazzer9]

Still would need to be built to a bigger loading gauge.  No point having HSR in which carriages are too narrow to comfortably seat 4 across.

[#Metro]

Korea Development Bank could fund Cross River Rail project
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/korea-development-bank-could-fund-cross-river-rail-project-20160519-gozg5a.html

Why borrow from Korea rather than the Queensland Treasury?

This is a ZERO information article, and a waste of words.

What if the bank's interest is limited to just a Korean restaurant as a tenant in a small corner of one of the CRR stations? It could be anything.

The Queensland Government needs to be put into administration. Enough!!

[#Metro]

HSR doesn't need to stop at stations throughout the tunnel but only utilise the tunnel as an alternative route.

Petey has made a good case for narrow gauge through CRR. It is accepted for the SEQ Regional Rapid Rail concept.

However, this does not rule out dual gauge should an interstate HSR need to use the tunnel. Timetabling might be a little tricky though.

A key question is where and how it would stop in the city (assuming it stops in the city - you never know, perhaps the final plan might

have it stopping at Brisbane Airport).

[ozbob]

Standard gauge HSR will not be using Cross River Rail.  CRR is for the SEQ suburban rail network. The train frequency precludes shared occupation.

If and when Oz ever moves on with HSR, extremely unlikely in view of the fact that we struggle with rear door bus boarding, it might well be Maglev or Hyperloop hey?   

[verbatim9]

Standard gauge HSR will not be using Cross River Rail.  CRR is for the SEQ suburban rail network. The train frequency precludes shared occupation.

If and when Oz ever moves on with HSR, extremely unlikely in view of the fact that we struggle with rear door bus boarding, it might well be Maglev or Hyperloop hey?   

Still think dual guage is a good start for emergency use etc.... Keep moving SEQ!

[ozbob]

Korea Development Bank could fund Cross River Rail project
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/korea-development-bank-could-fund-cross-river-rail-project-20160519-gozg5a.html

Why borrow from Korea rather than the Queensland Treasury?

This is a ZERO information article, and a waste of words.

What if the bank's interest is limited to just a Korean restaurant as a tenant in a small corner of one of the CRR stations? It could be anything.

The Queensland Government needs to be put into administration. Enough!!

Yep. Just a rehash of the Govt's media release.  Lots of wishing and hoping going on now on George.  I hope the DP has the wisdom and time to have a look at a real metro whilst in Korea.   Probably not, too busy I guess.

[Stillwater]

The Auditor-General needs to keep a close eye on this Korea Development Bank deal.

[ozbob]

The Guardian --> Queensland's beaches: beautiful one day, perfect the next – if you own a car

A native of the sunshine state capital, I decided to do the unthinkable: take public transport to the beach.

You can't catch a train to the beach from the centre of Brisbane, one of the great transport planning failures of Australia's third largest urban conurbation.

It's a wasted opportunity so obvious in 2016 – when a longstanding rail proposal has become a key political issue for the city in this federal election – but it beggars belief that people could do so in the 19th century.

I set out from the heart of the city at the Queen Street mall from where, if I had a car and a lucky day with traffic, I could be pulling up at Main beach, Surfers Paradise, 77km away, in less than an hour. But without a car?

"That's a hard one," says a TV journalist on a day off. "I always drive."

A local working in a tourist gift store, who's never made the trek to the Gold Coast except by car, tells me: "I think you need to get a train then a bus. The train is a fair way inland."

Going to the sunshine coast, that other site of world-class beaches to Brisbane's north, is "even harder", he warns.

A bartender from Britain, six weeks into her Brisbane stay, says she hasn't travelled to the beach yet: "Everyone tells me I need a car."

From the mall, I walk 11 minutes to central station. Queensland Rail staff tell me I should catch a train to Nerang and get the 740 bus to Surfers Paradise. The buses are regular, "every half hour", I'm told.

So are the express trains to the Gold Coast, which leaves me with a 17-minute wait. I buy a coffee that I'm going to have to finish quick – lest I risk a $235 fine for drinking it on the train – and ask the barista how she gets to the beach.

She doesn't have a car so she does the train/bus thing: "It's worth it. Sitting that long on the train is the only sh%t thing."

It wasn't always this way. From 1889 there were trains from Brisbane to Southport, which brought day trippers on a single ride from the capital to within walking distance of Gold Coast rollers. From 1903 there was another line to Tweed Heads just over the border in New South Wales.

But by 1964, under the Frank Nicklin government when Joh Bjelke-Petersen was works minister, both lines had been torn up in favour of the mighty motor car.

"It was the great tragedy of transport in Queensland," says Robert Dow of transport lobby group Rail Back on Track. Dow, a retired medical scientist, likes to point out the health benefits of getting around by trains and buses, which invariably involve "an active transport component" – aka walking.

But those heavy rail corridors through prime Gold Coast real estate are gone forever, an act that no government can realistically afford to undo – although there have been various proposals overs the years.

In October the Turnbull government announced it was on board with $95m for the second stage of the Gold Coast light rail, which will link the beach strip for the first time to the heavy rail line from Brisbane. The Abbott government had refused months earlier.

The second stage will allow passengers to swap a train for a tram at Helensvale, about 15km west of Main beach, and get to the beach from there.

Design is under way and construction is due for completion before the Gold Coast hosts the 2018 Commonwealth Games.

But the chances of a single train ride again from Brisbane to the beach have been dashed for all time.

At 11.30am, I jump on the Gold Coast "express" to Nerang.

The journey takes me through seven south-east Queensland seats: Brisbane (LNP), Griffith (ALP), Moreton (ALP), Rankin (ALP), Forde (LNP), Fadden (LNP) and Moncrieff (LNP).

The "express" won't get past 80km/h until we're past Beenleigh, in Forde. Meanwhile, I can scoot down the highway in my car at 110km/h most of the way. What gives?

Aside from the conditions of the actual tracks, the speed and frequency of trains running on the south-east network is a factor of a single river crossing in the centre of Brisbane, a chokepoint whose effects fan out beyond the city's boundaries.

The cross river rail, a longstanding proposal for a second CBD river crossing brought anew by the state Labor government, was ranked in February by Infrastructure Australia as Queensland's highest-priority initiative, and eighth in the national pecking order of infrastructure plans.

This month it was overtaken on the list by two road projects, including a highway upgrade on the southern Gold Coast. They had their business case completed –something the Palaszczuk government hasn't yet got around to with the cross river rail but aims to do so next month.

The $5.2bn rail tunnel under the river, which would link Bowen Hills to Dutton Park – and giving us all a quicker ride to the beach – needs commonwealth dollars for it to to materialise.

A Griffith University political analyst, Paul Williams, says cross river rail is "back front and centre on Queenslanders' electoral radar".

"If you'll excuse the pun, Brisbane is at a crossroads in terms of infrastructure," he says.

"Unusually, inner-city issues – alternative transport to cars on roads, rail and light rail – will have some sort of profile in this election. How much Canberra is willing to pay for [cross river rail] will be front and centre."

The federal opposition leader, Bill Shorten, has backed funding the proposal.

Others, such as the LNP hopeful for the seat of Brisbane, Trevor Evans, say it is "great idea" that needs fleshing out.

"At the moment there's no business case," Evans says. "We don't actually know where the tunnel's going to go, so it's at a pretty preliminary stage.

"Once we've got more detail, I think you'll find everyone in politics thinks it's a great idea, but as always these things come down to cost-benefit and where it sits in terms of the immediate priorities.

"So as more information comes out I'll assess that. I'm sure I'll be happy to support it.

"But anybody who's hoping it is ... an immediate solution is probably misleading people into thinking that it's something that might come into play in the next term or two because it's probably a long-term project."

Not that the federal government needed a completed business case to commit funding for the Gold Coast light rail, which in February was ranked well below cross river rail at 38th on the Infrastructure Australia priority list.

But there are firm expectations that Malcolm Turnbull will actually come through with a funding announcement on cross river rail before the election on 2 July.

Dow says his transport lobby group is so confident this will happen "we've basically stopped worrying about cross river rail in a general sense".

None of which makes my trip to the beach any faster.

An hour goes by and I'm still on the train, but we're past Beenleigh and finally getting a head of steam up – 140km/h! And then we come to a dead halt in the middle of some bushland south of Ormeau. This may or may not be because the track from Coomera to Helensvale is still being duplicated. The rail line to the Gold Coast was reopened in 1996 as a single track to Helensvale (extended to its southern terminus at Varsity Lakes in 2009), which meant duplicating it now comes at extra cost.

I arrive at Nerang station at 12.47pm. The station master tells me the quickest way to the beach is a $30 taxi ride. Luckily there's a bus to Surfers at 12.50. No food or drinks allowed on the bus, though, and having left Queen Street mall at 11am, I'm starting to get hungry. After getting stuck in roadworks at Benowa, the bus weaves its way through Chevron Island and I can see the towers of Surfers. After a 25-minute bus trip, I'm deposited outside a mini-golf park whose main attractions include a "Vomatron" ride.

The entire trip has cost me about $10.

Dow later tells me that the optimal way to get to the beach is to get a train to Helensvale, a bus to Gold Coast university hospital, then the light rail to a station right next to the mini-golf park. I take this way back and – despite the undeniably smooth ride on the "G" (the light rail) – the whole journey takes me two hours and 19 minutes.

But on arrival by bus at Surfers, I walk seven minutes to Main beach and my feet hit the sand at 1.21pm.

I write "2 hours, 21 minutes" in the sand – the duration of my beach outing from the centre of the sunshine state capital – and ask a local passerby, Jody Tessarolo, to take a photo.

She asks what the numbers mean.

"That's pretty good going," she says.

I could have flown to Sydney quicker.

[Gazza]

Great article. At least someone is talking about the fact the train and bus trip is so slow.

I'm not too sad that the rail line to tweed was ripped up.
If it wasn't, it would have just been straight electrified as is in the 80s, and probably left at that.
It would have been as slow and windy as the Beenleigh line, the line north of Beerburrum, the Newcastle line etc.

At least the rebuild in the early 90s forced them to build something decent and straight.

[Stillwater]

^^ If you want 'beach' in Brisbane and don't have a car, they have built you one at Southbank, even though it is not a shadow on what Mother Nature provides at the Sunshine and Gold coasts.  But if you don't have a passion for waves, take the train to Shorncliffe on a Sunday and take a stroll on the new pier, also around the coastal boardwalk to Sandgate.  Walk the other way to the fish and chip shop at Doboy Creek.  Or sit on the cliff and watch the hang-gliders and the planes coming into land at Brisbane Airport. You will be amazed at the number of people enjoying this part of Brisbane.  A family pass or weekend excursion fare as part of a fare review would do wonders for patronage, as well as allowing those doing it tough to enjoy our city at relatively small cost.  Why, those people might just be able to shout the kids an ice-cream at the frosty van.  The foreshore 'pirate fort' playground is a must for small children.  But, hey, I'm dreaming.  This is Queensland.  Just enjoy Southbank and the inflated restaurant prices there.  The poor can stay at home and watch I Dream of Jeannie re-runs.    BUT, they have a vote.  Please note pollies.

[Gazza]

Standard gauge HSR will not be using Cross River Rail.  CRR is for the SEQ suburban rail network. The train frequency precludes shared occupation.

If and when Oz ever moves on with HSR, extremely unlikely in view of the fact that we struggle with rear door bus boarding, it might well be Maglev or Hyperloop hey?   

Still think dual guage is a good start for emergency use etc.... Keep moving SEQ!

It won't work.

In peak hour youll have a QR train through the tunnel every 3 minutes, that's all the signaling will allow, so there wouldnt be any paths for the HSR arrivals.

And even if you could, and the HSR train pulls up at Roma St underground station, you'd block the running lines for several minutes while the HSR train unloads and passengers with luggage filter out, causing lengthy knock on delays to ordinary QR commuters.

So instead of having a problem on one system, you've now spread it to two

[tazzer9]

Great article. At least someone is talking about the fact the train and bus trip is so slow.

I'm not too sad that the rail line to tweed was ripped up.
If it wasn't, it would have just been straight electrified as is in the 80s, and probably left at that.
It would have been as slow and windy as the Beenleigh line, the line north of Beerburrum, the Newcastle line etc.

At least the rebuild in the early 90s forced them to build something decent and straight.

I see your point, but the rail line being ripped up meant the inevitable doom of the murwullimbah branch. I believe the failure for these two lines to meet doomed them both. It also meant that the beenleigh line was never upgraded.    Higher speeds north of beenleigh may have had positive flow on effects such to the beaudesert line. 
They could have rebuilt the tweed heads to beenleigh completely and reused the southport branch. 

[tazzer9]

It won't work.

In peak hour youll have a QR train through the tunnel every 3 minutes, that's all the signaling will allow, so there wouldnt be any paths for the HSR arrivals.

And even if you could, and the HSR train pulls up at Roma St underground station, you'd block the running lines for several minutes while the HSR train unloads and passengers with luggage filter out, causing lengthy knock on delays to ordinary QR commuters.

So instead of having a problem on one system, you've now spread it to two

A few things, 3 minutes will be what the trains are timetabled to run through.   A new tunnel will be built with signalling so trains are running through on greens, not yellows, so you can get a few more trains in there if you wanted.
Roma st underground should be built with some terminating capacity.  Another platform or turnback roads.
The emergency use is for things like scheduled track work. Its like how the XPT can terminate and has equipment at park road platform 4 when for years nothing else could. Services can still be maintained.

[Gazza]

But why should commuters on lines unrelated to the HSR have their service level impacted because of incidents on said HSR?

[tazzer9]

But why should commuters on lines unrelated to the HSR have their service level impacted because of incidents on said HSR?

Because people pay alot more money to travel on HSR than on a suburban train. 
You also need to consider how their level of service changes.  If their was an incident on the HSR line and there was no alternative, then everyone on the HSR has had their service level reduced to nearly zero.  While if it was to run through CCR for example, HSR trains service level will decrease, the suburban passengers *may* have their service level reduced. It all depends on the time of day. Have you considered that some of these HSR diversion might be at 12am on a tuesday and very few suburban trains will be running through CCR anyway.

An equivalent would be to design the new western sydney airport with 3 runways but so they can't handle planes larger than a 737.   

[ozbob]

CRR will not be built for HSR.  Simple. 

Move on ...

[ozbob]

If anyone seriously believes that Australia will manage to build any HSR you are living in fantasy.

Just make sure you vote for the Bullet Train for Australia Party ...

[ozbob]

The business case for CRR #3 should be released shortly.   

[tazzer9]

The business case for CRR #3 should be released shortly.   

If anyone seriously believes that Australia will manage to build any HSR you are living in fantasy.

I'm not sure which is more in fantasy land, HSR or a business case for CCR being released.

[ozbob]

^ LOL

[Gazza]

But why should commuters on lines unrelated to the HSR have their service level impacted because of incidents on said HSR?

Because people pay alot more money to travel on HSR than on a suburban train. 
You also need to consider how their level of service changes.  If their was an incident on the HSR line and there was no alternative, then everyone on the HSR has had their service level reduced to nearly zero.  While if it was to run through CCR for example, HSR trains service level will decrease, the suburban passengers *may* have their service level reduced. It all depends on the time of day. Have you considered that some of these HSR diversion might be at 12am on a tuesday and very few suburban trains will be running through CCR anyway.

An equivalent would be to design the new western sydney airport with 3 runways but so they can't handle planes larger than a 737.

So in Japan, do they divert Shinkansens onto dual gauge sections of their ordinary narrow gauge commuter networks?

[HappyTrainGuy]

Lay off the drugs. This dual gauge suburban hsr network bullsh%t will never happen. Even if it was only for 'Emergencies' that you continuously state. Network faults happen at any time. Its not just at 12am on a Tuesday night type of fault. And trackwork??? Biggest load of bullsh%t. That would be scheduled during a lul in the network timings. And that's on top of sections being designed to operate separately to allow for trackwork while still operating trains eg 1 multilevel tunnel with bi-di. But QR have shut downs blah blah blah its a totally different bloody network. You have to remember the HSR network proposed having tunnels that start before the burbs that run all the way into the city. It's not that difficult to design a network that will only have 1 type of rollingstock using it.

And the XPT Park Road equipment. If you are referring to the few ramps they had at the ends it's not the same as modifying a few km of tunnels, extending the platform lengths at Roma Street, having terminating platforms, signalling modifications, modifying rollingstock, crew certifications and whatever else needs to be done.

[SurfRail]

There is only so much future-proofing you can do.  Look at platforms 26/27 at Central in Sydney, which I can guarantee will never see an actual train.

If they had an actual, feasible plan to gauge convert the Gold Coast line over time (which would of necessity involve building a replacement for the Beenleigh route into town) and feed that up further north so we could introduce faster and more stable rollingstock, it might be worth looking at.  That is a pretty tall order, putting it generously.

We are only dealing with basically extreme possibilities here, which will inflate the cost of the project for no defined purpose if built into the business case (larger bores, more generous tolerances etc).  As such - it is going to be NG and that is fine by me.

[kram0]

The business case for CRR #3 should be released shortly.

Just like everything else the government is TALKING about. Will be released for federal and public review and consultation, followed by a state election, Labor getting kicked out for doing fuk all then we are back to square one!!

[tazzer9]

Like with almost anything infrastructure related, if you build it accommodate various things in the future, they will never get used.  But if you don't design for something in the future, it will be needed to be used for that future thing and will cost alot of money to fix.   

Look at the gateway bridges, large ships can't fit underneath them.   But the ANZAC bridge is the most over engineered bridge in australia. Because they designed it to allow large ships to still get under it. 

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Business fears rail project will stall

INDUSTRY leaders fear the state's most critical public transport project could miss out in the Budget.

The infrastructure and engineering sectors are counting on funding for the $5 billion-plus Cross River Rail tunnel and underground stations initiative in Brisbane.

But Infrastructure Association of Queensland chief executive Steve Abson said there was nervousness that support for the rail project might be limited when Treasurer Curtis Pitt delivers the Budget tomorrow.

And it wants investigation of new models of public-private funding such as the City Deals approach based on a UK concept of funding critical infrastructure through future increased tax and rates revenues flowing from the development

"We remain concerned that Queensland's highest priority project remains unfunded,'' he said. "Whilst we expect the Budget to fund the establishment of a new delivery authority and keep the project ticking along, industry can't gear up with any certainty until the main funding deal is struck.''

The Budget was an opportunity for the state to take the initiative and bring both sides of federal politics to the table with pre-election commitments, he said ...

[nathandavid88]

Look at the gateway bridges, large ships can't fit underneath them.   But the ANZAC bridge is the most over engineered bridge in australia. Because they designed it to allow large ships to still get under it.

There's no need for ships larger than the Gateway Bridge to pass under them because the river is neither deep enough, nor wide enough, to accommodate ships of that size anyway. That's the real reason why cruise ships larger than 270m can't dock at Portside, height of the bridge has nothing to do with it.

[Derwan]

Brisbane Times - Queensland Budget 2016: Treasurer coy on Cross River Rail funding

[kram0]

It's clearly not the governments priority if no cash is allocated. Just more talk as we have come to expect.

[tazzer9]

meanwhile 100,000 million trillion dollars allocated to various road projects.

[#Metro]

It's clearly not the governments priority if no cash is allocated. Just more talk as we have come to expect.

But, but, the animation said so!

"Our HIGHEST PRIORITY initiative..."

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> What to expect in the State Budget

... Transport Minister Stirling Hinchliffe indicated the state's top priority project, CrossRiver Rail, may also receive funding, with the State hoping to attract specific dollar commitments during the Federal election.
"We are very committed to making sure the number one project on the Government's agenda in terms of infrastructure – that will change the nature of the city of Brisbane and the whole of our southeast Queensland transport network – will get the attention it needs," he said.

"We need to continue to work with other funding partners to see that happen as well.

"We'll make sure that it gets the attention it needs to progress." ...

[ozbob]

I am not confident that there will much for CRR in the 2016/17 State Budget other than funds for the setting up the CRR Statutory Authority perhaps and progressing the business case.   Nothing much will happen until it is ticked off by IA I expect and then working out how funding will be achieved.  Despite the other states getting billions of dollars for various PT projects Queensland has missed the boat as usual.