Cross River Rail Project

[red dragin]

Whilst I was against the selling off of the power network, technology (eg Telsa Powerwall combined with Solar) is looking like making the wires redundant in the next few decades.

Perhaps it is time to sell off the cash cow rather than wait for it catch the train to Oakey. (got to keep the metaphors current) 

[ozbob]

Letter to the Editor Queensland Times 12th April 2016 page 17

Cross River project a winner for Brisbane

[BrizCommuter]

Whilst I was against the selling off of the power network, technology (eg Telsa Powerwall combined with Solar) is looking like making the wires redundant in the next few decades.

Perhaps it is time to sell off the cash cow rather than wait for it catch the train to Oakey. (got to keep the metaphors current) 

Can't wait to go off grid, though I'm sure the "disconnection" charge will increase massively!
Also, I'm still a bit nervous about having a huge bank of 18650 batteries bolted into my house.

[Gazza]

S M A C K D O W N
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Letters Couriermail 12th April 2016

[#Metro]

S M A C K D O W N
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A well-written piece and congrats on its publication.


Personally, I like to leave space to allow for the possibility that I am wrong.

It would be interesting to see what the Lord Mayor's response to this is. Indeed it would be even more interesting to see what

his response would be if we all asked to meet him in person and explain exactly what this delay on bus reform and his metro

idea are all about.


You are correct that the metro and CRR have similar start and end points. Where I see the difference is here: a metro can be

extended along the busways, whereas QR trains are incompatible with the busway and are incapable of extension along these

corridors.


I did have a funny idea earlier today, and it was this: Perhaps some frustrated RBOT people could run in the next BCC election

so that they are elected to BCC and really shake things up from there. Imagine that. I can just see the ballot paper: Candidate

XYZ, Better Buses for Brisbane Party.

[Gazza]

You are correct that the metro and CRR have similar start and end points. Where I see the difference is here: a metro can be

extended along the busways, whereas QR trains are incompatible with the busway and are incapable of extension along these

corridors.

I was discussing this with another member, and you could actually.

Basically, at Dutton park build in tunnel stubs (Even BaT got this right by providing them)

But instead of tunnelling to Yeerongpilly, tunnel to Greenslopes at some point in the future.

The busway south of here is dead flat. At garden city, the busway is flat too as it goes underground, even though the M3 rises and falls.

I think the biggest engineering constraint might be the hill around nathan

Once you hit 8mp, the rail line would diverge off along the gateway, stopping at underwood rd, and Kuraby, where it would merge onto the beenleigh line.

This means 3 service patterns.
-All stations to kuraby via coopers plains.
-All stations to beenleigh via underwood rd
-Varsity lakes, running express from Kuraby to Beenleigh, stopping only at Loganlea, via underwood.

At a point in the future, you'd build a line from 8mp to Beenleigh, via Loganholme.

The service pattern would then be.
-All stations to kuraby
-All stations to Helensvale via garden city
-All stations to Cooloongatta, via loganholme.

There may be an additional service pattern along the busway to ensure enough capacity
But, all stations would be 9 car sets, and this would have higher capacity than a metro conversion, though the disadvantage is still having drivers.


(the bit of busway between Greenslopes and Okeefe st would be abandoned, apart from say local routes using it)

[#Metro]

It is an interesting idea. Certainly would make the GC trip perhaps faster.

Not sure how it would work on the northside.

[aldonius]

Long long long term:

CAMCOS, Caboolture & Kippa-Ring to Varsity Lakes, Helensvale & Kuraby via Trouts/CRR/GardenCity. (Nambour etc gets a timed cross-platform connection).

Strathpine & Shorncliffe to Ipswich & Springfield via Milton.

Ferny Grove, Airport & Doomben to Cleveland, Kuraby & Flagstone via South Brisbane.

[ozbob]

Couriermail Quest --> Lord Mayor Graham Quirk believes Cross River Rail project will complement Brisbane Metro

Lord Mayor Graham Quirk has said council will co-operate with the state government on its plans for Cross River Rail and believes it would complement his council's plans for a Brisbane Metro subway system.

He said that it would be important that the New Cross River Rail route was designed to maximise benefit and public transport capacity to the inner city and CBD but added the city also needed the Brisbane Metro.

"Council officers will work cooperatively with their state government counterparts in the detailed design stage, particularly in planning the locations for stations on the new rail route and ensuring they are complementary to the Brisbane Metro stations," Cr Quirk said.

"I've always been clear that neither Cross River Rail nor the Metro would individually fix our public transport capacity issues in Brisbane.

"Two thirds of public transport passengers are bus users and we need to address looming bus capacity issues, particularly on the Victoria Bridge.

"Simply, additional river crossings for both forms of transport is needed for the future of our city."

 

[ozbob]

Twitter

Robert Dow ‏@Robert_Dow now Brisbane, Queensland

. @Team_Quirk G'day. Good move

> http://www.couriermail.com.au/questnews/lord-mayor-graham-quirk-believes-cross-river-rail-project-will-complement-brisbane-metro/news-story/a1121be8e590c07c8e7b8b61fdb431f8 ...

the metro as proposed is flawed as we all know. Happy to chat anytime .. #qldpol

[#Metro]

Following on from Gazza concept, I have been thinking further about 'alternative' alignments for metro.

For example, a metro could go on a new alignment where the Eastern Busway is proposed.


At Woolloongabba, it could travel together with CRR and then pop out after Roma Street.

This is where things get interesting. There is no rail at Ashgrove and the area is hilly. Perfect for a metro

under Waterworks Rd and Wardell Street and then up into the Trouts Road Corridor.


I wonder if it would be enough to solve the SEB capacity issues, but it does meet the criteria of 'completely new metro corridor'

that does not already have rail on it. It would still require DD tunnel through the CBD though. Carindale to Roma St is about

10 km, so one is looking at about $3-$4BN ballpark.


Another possibility again, is to run buses on Cleveland Road <---> UQ Lakes with pax expected to hop off at Buranda or Park Road

CRR. Not sure how that would play out, but it seems sound from a network planning perspective.


Note, this isn't a serious proposal I have given much thought to. Just something I noticed now.

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

13th April 2016

Does Reality Apply to Brisbane City Council?

Greetings,

We welcome Lord Mayor Graham Quirk's announcement that he will instruct his staff to co-operate with the planning of Cross River Rail. This is a welcome change from the 2013 bus review where council staff were instructed to boycott TransLink bus review meetings on six separate occasions.

Cross River Rail will increase both train speed and passenger capacity. By separating the Cleveland line from the Gold Coast and Beenleigh lines, the overall public transport network will become simpler. Future rail expansion for all of SEQ is enabled. New mass transit capacity is delivered to Brisbane.

Lord Mayor Graham Quirk needs to scrap his current metro proposal and go back to the drawing board. Mathematically, his metro is a bankrupt proposal.

Even under the most extreme assumptions, such as full trains every 90 seconds, Quirk Metro fails to increase busway capacity.

Public relations spin or denial is not going to overrule this fundamental reality:

300 passengers/train x 40 trains/hour = 12 000 passengers per hour per direction (Quirk Metro Capacity) cf. busway capacity of 12000-15000.

This is less than the  capacity the busways have already.

It is abundantly clear the Brisbane City Council bus network is broken. It needs a radical overhaul. Brisbane City Council already has our New Bus Network Proposal http://tiny.cc/newnetwork in its hands. What has the Lord Mayor done with our proposal?

We call on Lord Mayor Graham Quirk to embrace bus reform. Fix the black holes within Brisbane City Council's bus network. This should have been done when Brisbane City Council held control of the 2013 Brisbane bus review.

Any new metro proposal will have to be radically different from the Lord Mayor's current proposal if it is to advance.

Does reality apply to Brisbane City Council? Time will tell.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

Reference:

Lord Mayor Graham Quirk Believes CRR rail project will complement Brisbane Metro.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/questnews/lord-mayor-graham-quirk-believes-cross-river-rail-project-will-complement-brisbane-metro/news-story/a1121be8e590c07c8e7b8b61fdb431f8

[Gazza]

The letter was published in the courier mail.

[ozbob]

The letter was published in the courier mail.

Thanks, you know how us old academics are keen on references .. lol   

[Old Northern Road]

I actually like the idea of converting the busway to a QR line rather than converting it to a metro. A tunnel from Park Rd to the busway would only be around 2km. The only issue I see is that there might be too many stations for Gold Coast trains to stop at

[#Metro]

I actually like the idea of converting the busway to a QR line rather than converting it to a metro. A tunnel from Park Rd to the busway would only be around 2km. The only issue I see is that there might be too many stations for Gold Coast trains to stop at

So you would probably need extra tracks for express services etc to bypass the all stoppers. Yeah.

I would prefer building something that was designed for those corridors rather than retrofit QR into it.

[Gazza]

The good thing is you could build a massive passing loop between Griffith and greenslopes because the corridor is not constrained at that point.

* * *

Re quirks comments that CRR is complementary to the metro.
So if pax are dumped at Gabba, are they gonna pick to change onto CRR, and get straight into the middle of the CBD, or take the metro, which is less direct with more stops? (If both were built)

Granted, the escalator access times will be longer for CRR, but I think most pax will pick the more direct option via CRR.....you'd get from gabba to Roma St in 6 mins!

[#Metro]

The good thing is you could build a massive passing loop between Griffith and greenslopes because the corridor is not constrained at that point.

Would this passing loop be able to handle trains every 5 minutes in peak hour?

[Gazza]

I reckon, the Mandurah line runs every 5 mins in peak through the inner stations, and manages that without passing loops, and more than one stopping pattern.

[tazzer9]

I reckon that if you are going to do anything with the GC line like run it along the busway or an M1 alignment, its should be completely separate to CCR and it should be converted to standard gauge and all stations along the line upgraded to at least 8 cars and hopefully with a loading gauge big enough to run double deckers.  A few advantages to this is being able to get rolling stock easier and cheaper.   And the time being just end it in a stub in the city somewhere.   Acceleration isnt much of an issue for the GC line.   GC commuters are long distance commuters and would certainly appropriate the extra seats and creature comforts over a 1 minute faster travel time.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Double deckers? 8 car trains? Standard gauge?

What the hell has everyone been smoking?  The amount of bull crap ideas I've read recently is off the bloody charts!

[kram0]

Just getting them to provide information on CRR3 let alone start construction is mission enough let alone start planning other projects.

[nathandavid88]

Going off topic, is there really any tangible benefit to converting the local network* to Standard Gauge? For the many billions of dollars that it would cost to do so, and then more on top of that to buy and maintain a new type of rollingstock, I just don't see the benefits of standard gauge over narrow gauge being enough to warrant the conversion spend over, say building a couple of CRRs, NCL duplications, Trouts Road, CAMCOS, etc.

*Excluding projects that cross state borders like Inland Rail and HSR, obviously.

[ozbob]

None. 


Unless you are suggesting 5' 3"  ...      ( < joke )

[tazzer9]

Double deckers? 8 car trains? Standard gauge?

What the hell has everyone been smoking?  The amount of bull cr%p ideas I've read recently is off the bloody charts!

Its not really, its more just not building something inferior when for the same price, you can do better .   We will have a real rapid transit system one day, CCR will not be the core of that.  It will involve the use of metro like trains on standard gauge or rubber tyres (but not quirks), we may as well start building things right now.  The whole point of projects like CCR is to deliver more capacity and help to isolate lines to reduce conflicts.   As we have seen with stuff like the springfield , mandurah, geelong and South west rail lines.   If you build it right, people will use it, and it saves alot of headaches later on.  We dont want another half arsed line like the cleveland line rebuild or gold coast lines being single track or even worse, the oxley 4th track.  Same goes for CCR, build it right in the first place, otherwise it will be very expensive later on and will cause how many problems in the interim.

  Anyway if there was any rail line in Australia that warranted an 8 car double decker, it would the gold coast line.  High speed, longer distance, high patronage, few station stops, flat, few curves.   

None. 


Unless you are suggesting 5' 3"  ...      ( < joke )

Nah, 5' 6'' BART style.   

[SurfRail]

I can see no major advantage in converting to standard gauge.  It would permit medium speed (200kph) operations on the inter city routes, but that really isn't essential unless you are planning on running non-stop (which defeats the purpose - may as well go HSR if that is your aim).

[red dragin]

Given all the skills and equipment are narrow gauge, unless you are running non-stop Coast to CBD, just stick with what you know. The time savings of running higher than 160 would be some what eroded in braking and acceleration times for intermediate stations.

[#Metro]

I can see no major advantage in converting to standard gauge.  It would permit medium speed (200kph) operations on the inter city routes, but that really isn't essential unless you are planning on running non-stop (which defeats the purpose - may as well go HSR if that is your aim).

It isn't necessary to convert the entire network. Just separate out the Gold Coast - Sunshine Coast Line to allow faster trains.

[tazzer9]

It isn't necessary to convert the entire network. Just separate out the Gold Coast - Sunshine Coast Line to allow faster trains.

that is all that is needed.  Gold coast is far easier than sunshine coast, since its an isolated passenger line rather than a mainline.  Im not for converting the entire network.   But anything new apart from extensions should be built to be standard gauge and segregated from the current network.  Given that this would occur with station length extensions and signalling upgrades its not that extreme.   Some people here call for signalling and track upgrades that would would give 31 trains/hour but on awfully slow alignments with 6 car stations.

Given all the skills and equipment are narrow gauge, unless you are running non-stop Coast to CBD, just stick with what you know. The time savings of running higher than 160 would be some what eroded in braking and acceleration times for intermediate stations.

I know all the skills and knowledge are not just in narrow gauge, the best rail line in qld is the acacia ridge to #2 tunnel section of the interstate line.  How many other rail lines in qld average over 90km/h for passenger trains of any kind, let alone being 80 years . 

[red dragin]

I know all the skills and knowledge are not just in narrow gauge, the best rail line in qld is the acacia ridge to #2 tunnel section of the interstate line.

Which when constructed was built in narrow gauge with standard gauge sleepers, then one rail was shifted as the crew retreated back towards Brisbane. [/trivianightanswer]

[BrizCommuter]

This thread has turned into a foam party!

Time to leave the nightclub and have a good night sleep folks.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Seriously. Its a stupid idea. I honestly have no idea why 2 people keep bringing up the standard gauge bullsh%t argument for the seq passenger network regardless of what lines it's on.

Nothing that you or the only other person here for it has said any merit for the passenger network. That's even worse if its only on 1 or 2 lines as you now have to build a complete new mtce facility. You bring up signaling upgrades. It's been known for ages and by ages I mean over a decade that QR has already planned on running longer trains rather than increase the frequency. At the same time people higher up keep treating the public transport network as a political tool and nothing gets done. We have the potential for a fantastic pt network on the northside and yet we can't get buses on Sundays.... or a decent bus to Albany Creek..... or a decent bus to Zillmere Station. You can list all the 'advantages' and I can easily list all the disadvantages which makes..... You know what. I really can't be arsed. I'm tired and just seeing this cr%p constantly getting spewed out is just f***ing stupid that it gives me a headache. Just get off the drugs called foam. Its not good for you.

[Stillwater]

^^ I would be happy travelling at 120kph-160kph on narrow gauge to Nambour, if the track alignment could be built for the speed capability in the existing train configurations and the new sets on order.  It is about alignment, not width of the track.  I'd love to see the dance of the trains between a standard gauge passenger train south of Nambour and a narrow gauge freight train heading to Brisbane from Townsville.    

[petey3801]

How many other rail lines in qld average over 90km/h for passenger trains of any kind, let alone being 80 years . 

That has absoltely, positively, completely nothing to do with track gauge and everything to do with alignment. Beenleigh to the Gold Coast is 140km/h Beenleigh to Robina (apart from a couple short other pieces).
The lowest speed between Petrie and Beerburrum is 80km/h, with majority at 100km/h (and above, between Caboolture and Beerburrum). From Northgate to Petrie is mostly 80km/h+ with short sections of 60km/h between Zillmere and Carseldine, a section through Bald Hills and (unknown final speed) across the bridge between Lawnton and Petrie, with 50km/h through Petrie itself. I could go on...

High speeds need a good alignment, no matter the gauge. Interesting you didn't make reference to the fact it takes 14-odd hours to travel Brisbane to Sydney on SG, while the Cairns Tilt Train takes just over 12hrs to travel a similar distance Brisbane to Mackay.

If you're going to make arguments, make logical ones that can actually be backed up.

[James]

Seriously. Its a stupid idea. I honestly have no idea why 2 people keep bringing up the standard gauge bullsh%t argument for the seq passenger network regardless of what lines it's on.

Nothing that you or the only other person here for it has said any merit for the passenger network. That's even worse if its only on 1 or 2 lines as you now have to build a complete new mtce facility. You bring up signaling upgrades. It's been known for ages and by ages I mean over a decade that QR has already planned on running longer trains rather than increase the frequency. At the same time people higher up keep treating the public transport network as a political tool and nothing gets done. We have the potential for a fantastic pt network on the northside and yet we can't get buses on Sundays.... or a decent bus to Albany Creek..... or a decent bus to Zillmere Station. You can list all the 'advantages' and I can easily list all the disadvantages which makes..... You know what. I really can't be arsed. I'm tired and just seeing this cr%p constantly getting spewed out is just f***ing stupid that it gives me a headache. Just get off the drugs called foam. Its not good for you.

Agree 100% with this sentiment.

There's 'foaming' about the PT network and spewing out crap, saying we should convert the entire network to SG falls under 'spewing out crap'. Does anybody know how much this will cost? How much it will restrain the network? It would be billions of dollars of expenditure for what, an extra 20km/h?

You're much better off just using tilting rolling stock (much like that suggested in the Conning SEQ 2031 Transit Plan). That'd allow 160km/h running Beenleigh - Robina. Fix up parts of the alignment between Salisbury and Beenleigh (probably a few $bn in that alone) and you'd be able to get at least up to 80km/h, perhaps more.

Anyway if there was any rail line in Australia that warranted an 8 car double decker, it would the gold coast line.  High speed, longer distance, high patronage, few station stops, flat, few curves.

Um, no. Sydney has proved there's little throughput benefit of going double decker vs. single decker. Just run more services (or 9 car trains). Seriously, we're talking an inter-city train service here.

Assuming an average car occupancy of 1.2 people, you could fit the entirety of the M1's traffic loads in the 'peak of peak' (6am - 7am - 5641 vehicles, 6770 pax) into seven 6-car trains, assuming people are willing to stand. And that's assuming no future roadway widening, train lengthening or shifts in demand patterns (all of which are likely in the coming years). You don't need fancy new cars and a new gauge. Perhaps a faster line from Park Road to Beenleigh (either via the busway alignment or the existing alignment) is required to pull people out of their cars, but aside from that things really aren't that bad.

[#Metro]

At the same time people higher up keep treating the public transport network as a political tool and nothing gets done. We have the potential for a fantastic pt network on the northside and yet we can't get buses on Sundays.... or a decent bus to Albany Creek..... or a decent bus to Zillmere Station. You can list all the 'advantages' and I can easily list all the disadvantages which makes..... You know what. I really can't be arsed. I'm tired and just seeing this cr%p constantly getting spewed out is just f***ing stupid that it gives me a headache. Just get off the drugs called foam. Its not good for you.

HTG, there is already the New Bus Network Proposal, cost-neutral and completely do-able. http://tiny.cc/newnetwork

Now people may not agree with it. That's why it is public for all to download and modify as they see fit.

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> #goqld: Traffic congestion in southeast a driving concern

^ this article makes specific mention of CRR

[ozbob]

Please keep posts in this thread directly relevant to CRR.

CRR is not going to be standard gauge, CRR is an enabler for the present 3' 6" SEQ rail network. 

If you wish to continue a discussion  on standard gauge in Queensland set up a thread > http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?board=63.0

[ozbob]

Letter to the Editor Queensland Times 14th April 2016 page 13

Cross River Rail can't come soon enough

[HappyTrainGuy]

At the same time people higher up keep treating the public transport network as a political tool and nothing gets done. We have the potential for a fantastic pt network on the northside and yet we can't get buses on Sundays.... or a decent bus to Albany Creek..... or a decent bus to Zillmere Station. You can list all the 'advantages' and I can easily list all the disadvantages which makes..... You know what. I really can't be arsed. I'm tired and just seeing this cr%p constantly getting spewed out is just f***ing stupid that it gives me a headache. Just get off the drugs called foam. Its not good for you.

HTG, there is already the New Bus Network Proposal, cost-neutral and completely do-able. http://tiny.cc/newnetwork

Now people may not agree with it. That's why it is public for all to download and modify as they see fit.

Kudos on the proposal. So was the 2013 translink review which I still say is better than that one at least for Brisbane's northside. I was also speaking in a more general term. There's been a lot of talk about improving the railway network and bus network but nothing gets done. Political tools higher up playing around with public transport to win votes. CRR. Landsborough duplication. CAMCOS. Trouts Road. Manly 3rd platform. Oxley station fun. Bus network mods. Metros. Light Rail.... And many many many things that the public has no knowledge of. But hey, P332 to Beams Road. At least we have that going for us