Cross River Rail Project

[#Metro]

He said to channel 7, the council will not and have never funded state rail projects.

Was that this week?

If that is so, then you can see the problem. BCC is a one-way street:

BCC position: Happy to receive state funds and use state land for Quirk Metro. QLD Gov NOT happy about this.
QLD Gov position: Happy to receive BCC funds for CRR. BCC NOT happy about this.

Negotiated Solution: CRR + Metro in the one tunnel, both contribute.

[tazzer9]

There will never be dual gauge. So get that annoying idea out of your head.

How is moving towards standard gauge using baby steps an annoying idea.  QR is the only rail network in the entire world not moving towards standard gauge.  It is a fact that standard gauge is superior to our 1067mm gauge in nearly every aspect. 

[kram0]

He said to channel 7, the council will not and have never funded state rail projects.

Was that this week?

If that is so, then you can see the problem. BCC is a one-way street:

BCC position: Happy to receive state funds and use state land for Quirk Metro. QLD Gov NOT happy about this.
QLD Gov position: Happy to receive BCC funds for CRR. BCC NOT happy about this.

Negotiated Solution: CRR + Metro in the one tunnel, both contribute.

Yeah it was on tonight's news when they were talking CRR3.

[Arnz]

There will never be dual gauge. So get that annoying idea out of your head.

How is moving towards standard gauge using baby steps an annoying idea.  QR is the only rail network in the entire world not moving towards standard gauge.  It is a fact that standard gauge is superior to our 1067mm gauge in nearly every aspect.

Perth and much of Japan say hello.  Japan seems happy with their narrow gauge bullet trains.

[SurfRail]

There will never be dual gauge. So get that annoying idea out of your head.

How is moving towards standard gauge using baby steps an annoying idea.  QR is the only rail network in the entire world not moving towards standard gauge.  It is a fact that standard gauge is superior to our 1067mm gauge in nearly every aspect.

Perth and much of Japan say hello.  Japan seems happy with their narrow gauge bullet trains.

Shinkansen is SG.

They are however working on NG trains capable of using Shinkansen perway.

[BrizCommuter]

Brizcommuter, where has LM Graham Quirk come out and said that CRR MkIII was not going to be funded by BCC?

Do you have a link for this? My understanding is that there has not been public comment from the LM so far on CRR MkIII.

It was on 9 news tonight.

[#Metro]

He said to channel 7, the council will not and have never funded state rail projects.

Well, local councils on GC funded LRT and in Redcliffe funded MBRL.

LM Quirk was just elected this month, so he and his PT ' views ' obviously will not be going anywhere soon.


A deal is in order: I fund your metro if you fund my train tunnel. Do it as one project in one tunnel. 

CRR is unlikely to be built unless funds and co-operation from all three levels are on board. It is hard to see how this will work

without some negotiation (I don't call it 'compromise' because that implies defects, of which it is not).

[Arnz]

Or the other alternative is buying BT off BCC's hands under good faith (Newman had the opportunity in reverse considering he wanted to offload BT as Lord Mayor).  BCC then can use the funds of offloading BT elsewhere, even if they want their so called Metro.

Legislating the removal of Transport under the BCC Act (2010) should be used as a last resort if all options are exhausted and/or the BCC refuses to come to the table.

[kram0]

He said to channel 7, the council will not and have never funded state rail projects.

Well, local councils on GC funded LRT and in Redcliffe funded MBRL.

LM Quirk was just elected this month, so he and his PT ' views ' obviously will not be going anywhere soon.


A deal is in order: I fund your metro if you fund my train tunnel. Do it as one project in one tunnel. 

CRR is unlikely to be built unless funds and co-operation from all three levels are on board. It is hard to see how this will work

without some negotiation (I don't call it 'compromise' because that implies defects, of which it is not).

100% agree, all levels of government need to work together for any project of this size. I have doubts this will ever start (I hope I am wrong) as they are so lite on detail etc, if it is to go ahead all parties need to meet at the negotiating table.

[#Metro]

Or the other alternative is buying BT off BCC's hands under good faith (Newman had the opportunity in reverse considering he wanted to offload BT as Lord Mayor).  BCC then can use the funds of offloading BT elsewhere, even if they want their so called Metro.

Legislating the removal of Transport under the BCC Act (2010) should be used as a last resort if all options are exhausted and/or the BCC refuses to come to the table.

Yes this is true, however:

If BT was removed from BCC, there would be even less reason for BCC to tip in $500 million or so into the tunnel. Unless the state was going to levy a BCC tax for all properties in the BCC region as a separate thing.

I think many of us agree that there needs to be a table for negotiation between State and Local, whatever the case may be.

The fact that the two levels of gov are entirely on different planning tangents, with their own pet projects, each keeping safely within their own silo, clearly shows the current system is not working.

The knock-back of Newmans offer to give away the bus network to QGov many years ago is shaping up to be a very very expensive split second decision!

[Gazza]

I cannot see them not directing the GC train to the airport, this would not make any sense at all considering the number of tourist using this service.

Why aren't tourists flying into OOL like they should be anyway?

[verbatim9]

There will never be dual gauge. So get that annoying idea out of your head.

How is moving towards standard gauge using baby steps an annoying idea.  QR is the only rail network in the entire world not moving towards standard gauge.  It is a fact that standard gauge is superior to our 1067mm gauge in nearly every aspect.

I think Qld will progressively move to standard gauge. Makes sense!

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

8th April 2016

Funding Cross River Rail

Greetings,

RAIL Back on Track welcomes the third incarnation of Cross River Rail. After seven years, Queensland badly needs this project.

Four-year terms will stabilise the political environment around Cross River Rail. But it is not enough. This project needs to be funded.

All parties need to work together at the negotiating table to ensure that the project is built right the first time and can accommodate future demands.  Platform lengths, train lengths and connections to the rail network north and south of Brisbane are of particular interest to our members.

The Australian Government, Queensland Government and Brisbane City Council must sit together at the negotiating table and work out how to jointly fund the project. The community also needs to have a say on the design.

The private sector is not going to come in and simply fund Cross River Rail. Superannuation funds and the like want a commercial return on their investment and that is usually in the form of government payments over many decades. Projects such as this are directly or indirectly financed from government revenue, whether or not the private sector is involved. Revenues from value capture will only ever be a small fraction of the total project cost.

The Queensland Government has many options for contributing its fair share of costs. It can sell or lease state assets (estimated at $30 billion dollars), or borrow against these assets and use the future profit stream to pay the debt back. Alternatively, it can look at broadening the state's land tax base to include residential land (but not buildings) to raise revenues. We have no preference among these options, ultimately we just want to see CRR funded and constructed.  It has been far too long already.

At this point in time, Lord Mayor Graham Quirk's proposal for a separate metro would compete for money against Cross River Rail. The Lord Mayor's metro proposal would not save any time for passengers (due to mass interchange) and would not increase busway capacity. Bus network reform can and will save billions of dollars.  It is an outrage that this is not happening.

That's not just our opinion that the Quirk Metro as proposed is nonsense - it is also basic arithmetic that anyone can verify for themselves with a cheap calculator.

We call for all parties from this point forward to support the delivery of Cross River Rail, and also bus reform. After waiting seven years, we have been waiting far too long.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

References:

Cross River Rail MkI Approvals
http://www.statedevelopment.qld.gov.au/assessments-and-approvals/cross-river-rail-project.html

Quirk Metro Capacity Calculation:
300 pax/train x 40 trains/hour = 12 000 passengers/hour, the same as the current busway already does. Thus, even if trains ran every 90 seconds using state-of-the-art signalling, no increase in passenger capacity over the current busway operations would be achieved. Doubling train capacity from 300 pax / train to 600 pax / train still has capacity fall well short of the 30 000 passengers/hour touted in election vote bait material.

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Federal funds for Cross River Rail not guaranteed as new plans unveiled

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> A bridge too far: Bob Katter 'outraged' at Brisbane cross river tunnel plan

[ozbob]

Queensland < 

[#Metro]

She called on all levels of government to help make the project happen, with Lord Mayor Graham Quirk the only one to flatly rule out the prospect yesterday.

LM Quirk was happy to fund BaT because it contained the bus component. Now that is gone, there is no funding from BCC because there is no reason to do so. It is like your neighbour asking you for money to pay for upgrades to their own house.

Ms Trad confirmed the new alignment for the project, revealed by The Courier-Mail, which has been scaled back and borrows some aspects from the former government's BaT (bus and train) tunnel.

"Scaled back" eh? I wonder what that means? Keep an eye on the platform length and train length. Suspect they cut the length to 6 car perhaps?

"It's extraordinary to see the decision to put a station down on Albert Street, where it has flooded and a long way away from Queens Wharf, the biggest project on the horizon," he said.

In the event of a flood, trains could just terminate at Roma Street. Shut the tunnels down.

[ozbob]

Albert Street Station will have full flood mitigation. Just shut the flood doors and carry on actually!  Express service .. 

But in reality, if Albert St is flooded, Brisbane is flooded no need for public transport for a while.  Refer to 1974, 2011 etc.

Emerson and the LNP are absolute fools sadly.

[kram0]

I cannot see them not directing the GC train to the airport, this would not make any sense at all considering the number of tourist using this service.

Why aren't tourists flying into OOL like they should be anyway?

Very simple, GC have limited services and infrastructure. Brisbane will always be the main getaway to QLD. I catch the train to the airport every 4-6 weeks, and patronage has increased dramatically in last 18 month.

[Gazza]

Brisbanetimes --> A bridge too far: Bob Katter 'outraged' at Brisbane cross river tunnel plan

Not sure how Matter came up with a figure of only 14km worth of tunnels in Syd.
The NWRL is that length by itself

What about the city circle, eastern suburbs, epping chatswood, airport lines?

And for roads you've got the harbor tunnel, cross city, lane cove, m5, eastern distributor, and northconnex is about to start too.

[kram0]

Brisbanetimes --> A bridge too far: Bob Katter 'outraged' at Brisbane cross river tunnel plan

Not sure how Matter came up with a figure of only 14km worth of tunnels in Syd.
The NWRL is that length by itself

What about the city circle, eastern suburbs, epping chatswood, airport lines?

And for roads you've got the harbor tunnel, cross city, lane cove, m5, eastern distributor, and northconnex is about to start too.

Because Katter is a nutter..

[#Metro]

Very simple, GC have limited services and infrastructure. Brisbane will always be the main getaway to QLD. I catch the train to the airport every 4-6 weeks, and patronage has increased dramatically in last 18 month.

I think OOL also has curfew as well during nights?

Plus I am not sure if it can take all size planes either.

[James]

Finally a decent PT proposal. No stupid double-decker tunnel, nothing which encourages the continuation of bus network failure and a proposal which includes all the necessary components. My only hope is that they include tunnel stubs for both Trouts Rd and for two tracks down to Yeerongpilly. Eventually both will be needed, but for now, if provisions can be made for those two pieces of future infrastructure, we have a very sound proposal here.

I hope funding gets promised in the upcoming election and that this project gets off the ground ASAP. The last thing we need is some idiot canning the project or being put on just another wishlist.

The Gold Coast has its own airport, and over time more services will use that, hopefully.

There is some merit to the view put forward though. It would require double transfer as the trains are nowhere near the hotels. On the other hand, most international pax would write off the entire day for travels so even if time were saved, they would not
really value it IMHO.

Agree. IMHO, I think a lot of domestic pax would already be flying into OOL (hence the massive passenger surge around Christmas/Easter time at OOL) and a lot of international pax would be either going directly to OOL or flying via SYD. There's a few destinations out of BNE that aren't served out of OOL - there's LAX and HKG, but aside from that most airports are already covered (albeit with reduced frequency) or are insignificant markets (e.g. flights to Honiara).

This is really the least of our worries.

Or the other alternative is buying BT off BCC's hands under good faith (Newman had the opportunity in reverse considering he wanted to offload BT as Lord Mayor).  BCC then can use the funds of offloading BT elsewhere, even if they want their so called Metro.

Legislating the removal of Transport under the BCC Act (2010) should be used as a last resort if all options are exhausted and/or the BCC refuses to come to the table.

To be frank, I think the state government should go straight to legislation. The issues are institutional. BCC has had more than enough opportunity to reform the bus network and has flat out refused at every turn. The incessant meddling in the transit affairs of the city by BCC needs to be stopped for the good of the state.

I think Qld will progressively move to standard gauge. Makes sense!

Lol. It makes no sense. Such a project would require tens of billions of dollars of investment for no real gain aside from "unification" with NSW, a state whose nearest major city (>100,000) is 700km from the QLD/NSW state border.

[#Metro]

Finally a decent PT proposal. No stupid double-decker tunnel,

Prejudice. A preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience.

(Source: Google)

I have made a case based on avoiding the future need to sink yet another tunnel to fix up the SEB, plus funds from BCC if something is negotiated with them. In addition there is a working engineering precedent, and DTMR have already previous
plans from BaT to work off.

I see the optimal outcome as combining 2 projects into 1.

To be frank, I think the state government should go straight to legislation. The issues are institutional. BCC has had more than enough opportunity to reform the bus network and has flat out refused at every turn. The incessant meddling in the transit affairs of the city by BCC needs to be stopped for the good of the state.

It is. This is why the issues persist despite different faces and party colours. It has been going on for at least a decade now, and it is getting so much worse with the ridiculous Zillmere - UQ rocket bus.

You really have to wonder what planet BCC is actually on? Why do these things so consistently over many years? What do they expect to gain from destroying their own PT system? It is ridiculous!

Worse, I find it so hard to believe that Graham Quirk is behind all of this policy lunacy. He seems like such a nice, thoughtful and considerate person, it is so so difficult to see how such patently terrible policies could come from him. I mean just look at the metro - doesn't even increase capacity! How on Earth did that happen??!

[James]

I have made a case based on avoiding the future need to sink yet another tunnel to fix up the SEB, plus funds from BCC if something is negotiated with them. In addition there is a working engineering precedent, and DTMR have already previous
plans from BaT to work off.

I see the optimal outcome as combining 2 projects into 1.

SEB is easily fixed - fix the bus network, run some superbuses, feed more buses to improved-frequency rail, problem solved. No need to pour billions worth of concrete. Remember, buses are 50% full going through CC. If you simply halved the number of buses going through, you'd have no congestion at all. Of course it isn't that simple, but I think there's a lot of room to move in the current infrastructure should it be used effectively.

It is. This is why the issues persist despite different faces and party colours. It has been going on for at least a decade now, and it is getting so much worse with the ridiculous Zillmere - UQ rocket bus.

You really have to wonder what planet BCC is actually on? Why do these things so consistently over many years? What do they expect to gain from destroying their own PT system? It is ridiculous!

Worse, I find it so hard to believe that Graham Quirk is behind all of this policy lunacy. He seems like such a nice, thoughtful and considerate person, it is so so difficult to see how such patently terrible policies could come from him. I mean just look at the metro - doesn't even increase capacity! How on Earth did that happen??!

Institutional stupidity and backwards attitudes within political circles. There are serious issues which require serious solutions. Quirk hasn't co-operated since he became LM in 2011, why is he going to start now?

[#Metro]

See response below. Even with 100% superbuses, we'd have a bus every 45 seconds or so.
Remember, CRR is being proposed on the basis of a 2x - 3x population increase over the greater regional area and for the long
term. There is no reason to believe that this growth would be restricted to the rail network.

In the medium term to longer term, the time will come when the busway will need to be replaced IMHO.

Busway capacity

If the busway handles 12 000 pphd currently and we convert all buses to superbuses, that implies:

12 000 pphd / 150 pax per vehicle = 80 vehicles per hour

60 minutes / 80 vehicles = 1 bus per 0.75 minutes

0.75 minutes x 60 seconds / minute = a bus every 45 seconds.

Remember, that is absolute perfect case, in reality it would be closer to a bus every 30 seconds down the busway.

Throw in future growth, and you still have a problem in the medium term with buses.


Ideally, one would want to say double the capacity of the busway from 12 000 pphd to 24 000 pphd over the long term.

Using similar calculations, that implies 160 vehicles per hour, or a superbus every 22 seconds.


Conclusion: Bus reforms will provide near-term relief, however my position currently is that a metro (NB: Not necessarily

Quirk's one) along the SE Busway is ultimately the most efficient and effective solution in the longer term. Nobody has yet

demonstrated any alternative corridor anywhere that would reach 12 000 pphd currently.

So that's my reasoning. Feel free to disagree with it.

[#Metro]

Institutional stupidity and backwards attitudes within political circles. There are serious issues which require serious solutions. Quirk hasn't co-operated since he became LM in 2011, why is he going to start now?

I actually think this intransigence might ultimately force the State Government to take action perhaps? The State Government appears to be fully complicit in this mess, even failing to enforce "bus on time" standards, which I would think would be not compliant with the service contract...

In any case, it is not good is it?

[nathandavid88]

Ms Trad confirmed the new alignment for the project, revealed by The Courier-Mail, which has been scaled back and borrows some aspects from the former government's BaT (bus and train) tunnel.

"Scaled back" eh? I wonder what that means? Keep an eye on the platform length and train length. Suspect they cut the length to 6 car perhaps?

I think the "scaled back" comment refers to when compared to CRR1. Tunnel from Dutton Park, as opposed to Yeerongpilly, etc.

[Derwan]

I have made a case based on avoiding the future need to sink yet another tunnel to fix up the SEB, plus funds from BCC if something is negotiated with them. In addition there is a working engineering precedent, and DTMR have already previous
plans from BaT to work off.

I see the optimal outcome as combining 2 projects into 1.

LD there's a reason why you're the only person who is suggesting this.  There is also a reason why BaT was never going to happen.  It's time to move on from this concept.

Yes - we'll need a metro one day.  No - it shouldn't be in the same tunnel as another mode of transport.  It should service a different route with different stations.  Yes it will cost more money in the long run but it'll improve the public transport network instead of duplicating part of it unnecessarily.

It's ridiculous that Quirk is willing to fund a Metro but not CRR.  The metro would've been used by plenty of people travelling from Ipswich, the Gold Coast or Logan - so he can't use the excuse that it's only for Brisbane residents.

It works like this:

• Brisbane residents (and visitors to Brisbane, spending money in Brisbane) will be the primary beneficiaries from Cross River Rail.
• The Council should acknowledge this and offer funding for the greater good of its constituents instead of attempting to build a different piece of infrastructure (that isn't required yet) that would require funding from state and federal government anyway

The politics in this are ridiculous.  It's clear what the priority should be and all levels should be supporting it instead of stupid squabbling.

[kram0]

Very simple, GC have limited services and infrastructure. Brisbane will always be the main getaway to QLD. I catch the train to the airport every 4-6 weeks, and patronage has increased dramatically in last 18 month.

I think OOL also has curfew as well during nights?

Plus I am not sure if it can take all size planes either.

100% correct. There hours of operation are 6am-11pm. They are also limited to aircraft size upto and including code E (A330, B787). Brisbane has far more business traffic which gives them an annual passenger movement of about 22 million people, compared to about 6 million at GC.

[kram0]

Ms Trad confirmed the new alignment for the project, revealed by The Courier-Mail, which has been scaled back and borrows some aspects from the former government's BaT (bus and train) tunnel.

"Scaled back" eh? I wonder what that means? Keep an eye on the platform length and train length. Suspect they cut the length to 6 car perhaps?

I think the "scaled back" comment refers to when compared to CRR1. Tunnel from Dutton Park, as opposed to Yeerongpilly, etc.

Which is a stupid idea. They should build it once well to CRR1 standard, and not cut corners, but this is government we are talking about.

[Derwan]

https://www.facebook.com/RAILBackOnTrack/photos/a.653209831359874.1073741825.160527347294794/1250814064932778/?type=3&theater



It has to be one or the other.  It can't be both.

[ozbob]

Nice!  Thanks Dewan.

You summed it up well above.  It is very dumb politics that is keeping this state held back.  Brisbane is a special case of the worst case.

Sadly, it is difficult to really see how progress will be made while we have BCC locked in a silo of yesterday and mediocrity ...

[HappyTrainGuy]

There will never be dual gauge. So get that annoying idea out of your head.

How is moving towards standard gauge using baby steps an annoying idea.  QR is the only rail network in the entire world not moving towards standard gauge.  It is a fact that standard gauge is superior to our 1067mm gauge in nearly every aspect.

Because it means a fundamental change in the current railway operations in which that money could be spent elsewhere for what effectively is a small gain in the passenger network. There's not a big population in SEQ and the existing narrow gauge can handle that quite fine. Even down the line 9 car trains will replace the 6 car trains on select lines anyway ie Sunny Coast-Gold Coast lines via CRR/Trouts road corridors where station mods are minimal. If you can get a seat on the caboolture train in peak hour then why does the network need to go up a gauge just so we could say "Hey, we are like you too". Ferny Grove has a overcrowding problem at times but that's due to rollingstock numbers. Freight is the only winner in the wider gauge arena and there are plans and options out there to bypass the majority of freight from the Brisbane network. Oh but what about MSR or whatever. That's never going to happen. The majority of the current rollingstock can pass 160 easily. And we have the tilts that have passed 200 in testing config on the gold coast line/further up north so we can produce rollingstock in narrow gauge capable of some good speeds. But yes. Lets modify the existing network so it can run a wider gauge. Lets also get some new faster 250kph trains with composite bodies. And lets all run them through the same tracks into the city with the suburban rollingstock. What's that? Following signals? Slow speeds due to the alignment? Sorry, we p%ssed  the money away on getting these wider trains, changing the gauge, new stabling and new mtce facilities that we didn't have any money left to build a new corridor for the trains to run.

Try to explain a good reason as to why the Brisbane network should have any wider gauge trains and we can easily look into why it won't be a good idea unless you just want to p%ss away money. Really the only time wider gauge trains should be on our network is the current xtp in the early morning or a new hsr rail that goes into brisbane via a tunnel from waaayyyyyy back.

[nathandavid88]

A little tidbit article from The Australian (via AAP) that may be of interest:

Qld businesses could prop up $5.2b project

AAP APRIL 8, 2016 10:09AM

Qld businesses could prop up $5.2b project

Nearby residents and businesses directly benefiting from Brisbane's proposed Cross River Rail could be asked to help pay for the $5.2 billion project.

Acting Premier Jackie Trad says one of the "innovative funding models" being considered to help pay for the project is "value capture", similar to that used for London's Crossrail, which takes advantage of increased property values in surrounding areas.

"That is where areas around the particular area of the infrastructure project get to pay a contribution, because they get value uplift in terms of their properties, in terms of their businesses," Ms Trad told ABC Radio on Friday.

Source: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/latest-news/qld-businesses-could-prop-up-52b-project/news-story/1c55cf687c93b273fffed122fdad6f3c

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> Cross River Rail: Businesses could prop up $5.2b project

[kaykayt]

Is it likely Express trains via CRR will still stop at Yeerongpilly? Or is it going to bypass it and stop only at Boggo Rd?

[ozbob]

Is it likely Express trains via CRR will still stop at Yeerongpilly? Or is it going to bypass it and stop only at Boggo Rd?

It's a possibility, particularly with the TOD developments etc. around the area at Yeerongpilly.  By the time CRR3 is finished it will be a different world ...

[verbatim9]

Busses can start and terminate at Woollongabba Station Crr3 and Exhibition station Crr3 to alleviate congestion.

[SurfRail]

The arrangement is a bit less satisfactory for the northern end as there does not seem to be any practical way to connect the RBWH busway to the Ekka station.

A short viaduct branching from immediately south of RBWH and descending to ground level might do it, but that will never happen.