Cross River Rail Project

[Old Northern Road]

Any line to Flagstone isn't going to be built for many decades (40 years at least) not to mention the laughable idea of extending it to Beaudesert. There are obviously far more important projects. Not only CRR, Trouts Rd, CAMCOS, Gold Coast line extensions but also the East-West metro and rail lines to Chermside, Carindale etc (either light rail or heavy rail).

Flagtsone line won't affect CRR anyway. You are always going to have far more passengers coming from the north. Hopefully CRR will be designed for 9 car trains.

Wherever the portal is there needs to be 5 tracks north of Salisbury. I don't think there is room between Yeerongpilly and Dutton Park to add another 2 tracks.

[QLDBUS]

Any line to Flagstone isn't going to be built for many decades (40 years at least) not to mention the laughable idea of extending it to Beaudesert.

so what you're saying is that flagstone doesn't need a line till 2055. 

[Old Northern Road]

Any line to Flagstone isn't going to be built for many decades (40 years at least) not to mention the laughable idea of extending it to Beaudesert.

so what you're saying is that flagstone doesn't need a line till 2055. 

Did I say that?

[techblitz]

one things for sure........theres no denying that flagstone and its surroundings WILL be one of the boom housing areas down the track as the mad scramble for affordable land ramps up.....brisbane is fast heading down the path of melbourne and sydney where a population ponzi model...combined with people moving from vic/nsw to escape the melbourne/sydney outer suburb median house price clusterf#*k...... ultimately forcing brisbane detached housing prices up...... eventually pushing everyone further out into no-mans-land to score available land...and it could happen much earlier than 40yrs....

[mufreight]

The Flagstone development will be hindered by the lack of public transport and other facilities on the other hand the development in the Ripley Valley has the advantages of its close proximity to Springfield which has all the amenities and public transport in the form of the rail line.
It would seem that the rail line would be extended from Springfield into the Ripley Valley much before any rail line to Flagstone or indeed even a reasonable bus service from Flagstone either to Beaudesert or Browns Plains

[Stillwater]

Development of SEQ will flow wherever there is argy-bargy over which level of government pays for what bit of transport infrastructure.  Ripley will proceed ahead of Flagstone because feds have invested in the Cunningham Highway.  Look at North Lakes -- road and rail infrastructure jointly funded .... west of Ipswich a goer because of investment in Warrego Hwy.  On the Sunshine Coast, two new 'cities' Caloundra South and Palmview, beside the federally-funded Bruce Highway.  Calls for widening south to Brisbane.  It is not always the case, of course, but state planning is to put major new development beside an artery that is on the federal network of roads and railways, because then the pressure can be ramped up for the feds to build the necessary transport infrastructure, not the state.

[Arnz]

Any line to Flagstone isn't going to be built for many decades (40 years at least) not to mention the laughable idea of extending it to Beaudesert.

so what you're saying is that flagstone doesn't need a line till 2055. 

Did I say that?

Flagstone is still a better chance than any form of CAMCOS. 

Let's face it, CAMCOS is the 'new Redcliffe' considering the region's history as a conservative heartland with the exception of the Beattie whitewash/powerhouse era when the Sunshine Coast had 3 Labour-held seats at one point.

[kram0]

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/opinion/fiscal-constraints-limit-plans-for-the-cross-river-rail-in-the-state-infrastructure-plan/news-story/12c0d80e623b5c5a7d13cb485ea1efab

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Deputy Premier Jackie Trad concedes fiscal misfortunes stop infrastructure investment

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Cross River Rail route set for release

[#Metro]

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/cross-river-rail-route-set-for-release/news-story/5a303f3e94df454951bda22e54214c97#load-story-comments

The Merivale Bridge between the CBD and South Brisbane is predicted to reach capacity in five years. And in his foreword to the report, the minister says: "By around 2021, there will not be any capacity to increase services on parts of the network during our busiest peak periods."

Something is not right with this. This almost exact statement appeared in the Cross River Rail 2010 proposal, with the critical date as 2016. Well, it is now 2016...

[SurfRail]

It's actually correct this time around.  Trains arriving at Park Road heading inbound in the current timetable:

6:00-6:59am - 11 trains
- 2 Gold Coast
- 4 Beenleigh
- 4 Cleveland
- 1 Manly

7:00-7:59am - 18 trains
- 6 Gold Coast
- 4 Beenleigh
- 4 Cleveland
- 4 Manly

8:00-8:59am - 18 trains
- 4 Gold Coast
- 3 Beenleigh
- 3 Kuraby
- 1 Coopers Plains
- 4 Cleveland
- 3 Manly

9:00am-9:59am - 10 trains
- 2 Gold Coast
- 2 Beenleigh
- 2 Coopers Plains
- 3 Cleveland
- 1 Cannon Hill

Absent signalling upgrades, there is room for about 2 extra trains per hour in the core peak - these are likely going to end up being Gold Coast trains. 

There is going to need to be a greater push for trains arriving into the city outside these hours to take advantage of the track capacity.

[achiruel]

Absent signalling upgrades, there is room for about 2 extra trains per hour in the core peak - these are likely going to end up being Gold Coast trains. 

So why are signal upgrades not being done? I understand there's other reasons for CRR besides the Merivale Bridge capacity issues, but wouldn't it make sense to make the best of what we have? e.g. I read recently that the Victoria line in London has been upgraded to 33 tph. Is that something that's impossible in Brisbane for some reason?

[mufreight]

The choke point is not just the Merivale Street bridge but also getting trains through the CBD

[SurfRail]

Absent signalling upgrades, there is room for about 2 extra trains per hour in the core peak - these are likely going to end up being Gold Coast trains. 

So why are signal upgrades not being done? I understand there's other reasons for CRR besides the Merivale Bridge capacity issues, but wouldn't it make sense to make the best of what we have? e.g. I read recently that the Victoria line in London has been upgraded to 33 tph. Is that something that's impossible in Brisbane for some reason?

We're talking billions of dollars for something that is going to net about 4 extra trains per hour.  It should be done but it isn't going to be a replacement for Cross River Rail.

No way any QR line is capable of running more than 24tph at absolute best.  Not without doubling the number of doors, ripping out all non-perimeter seating, raising all platforms in the inner city area etc etc.

[Derwan]

Something is not right with this. This almost exact statement appeared in the Cross River Rail 2010 proposal, with the critical date as 2016. Well, it is now 2016...

They put up the fares to reduce patronage growth.

[ozbob]

Yes.  And the global financial crisis also had an effect.  Compounded by loss of employment in CBD as well.

[achiruel]

Absent signalling upgrades, there is room for about 2 extra trains per hour in the core peak - these are likely going to end up being Gold Coast trains. 

So why are signal upgrades not being done? I understand there's other reasons for CRR besides the Merivale Bridge capacity issues, but wouldn't it make sense to make the best of what we have? e.g. I read recently that the Victoria line in London has been upgraded to 33 tph. Is that something that's impossible in Brisbane for some reason?

We're talking billions of dollars for something that is going to net about 4 extra trains per hour.  It should be done but it isn't going to be a replacement for Cross River Rail.

No way any QR line is capable of running more than 24tph at absolute best.  Not without doubling the number of doors, ripping out all non-perimeter seating, raising all platforms in the inner city area etc etc.

Whoa, I didn't realise there was that much work and $$$ involved, I was thinking a few hundred million at most.  Yeah, I can't see a lot of value in that amount of money for an extra 4tph.

[#Metro]

New signalling? Is that about ATP? Or something else?

May as well make it automatic with costs like that!

It is possible to make trains drive themselves between stations with the driver only handling the station and door opening etc.

I'm not sure how more expensive that would be or how it would interact with the fact that freight is carried on the QR network.

[Gazza]

New signalling? Is that about ATP? Or something else?

May as well make it automatic with costs like that!

It is possible to make trains drive themselves between stations with the driver only handling the station and door opening etc.

I'm not sure how more expensive that would be or how it would interact with the fact that freight is carried on the QR network.

GoA 2 would be what you are describing.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_train_operation

[kram0]

This is a paragraph out of one of the main Sydney papers talking about costs associated with the Metro. It might give us an approximate on constructions costs associated with CRR.

The advantage of this scheme is that it is cheaper, relatively speaking, to build rail tunnels than to build rail stations. The 15-kilometre tunnels recently dug for the north-west line, for instance, cost about $1.15 billion. But one underground rail station costs half a billion alone.

[OzGamer]

This is a paragraph out of one of the main Sydney papers talking about costs associated with the Metro. It might give us an approximate on constructions costs associated with CRR.

The advantage of this scheme is that it is cheaper, relatively speaking, to build rail tunnels than to build rail stations. The 15-kilometre tunnels recently dug for the north-west line, for instance, cost about $1.15 billion. But one underground rail station costs half a billion alone.

The geology of Brisbane is very different from Sydney - we sit on top of Brisbane tuff which is around 20 times harder than Sydney sandstone. This can be overcome, but cost/km of tunneling can not necessarily be directly compared. For example, roadheaders are not as good at hard rock excavation, although they were used for half of Airport Link. The eastern section of Airport Link, Clem7 and Legacy Way all used boring machines. These obviously can not be used to build stations, so these may be more expensive in Brisbane than Sydney.

[#Metro]

Isn't most of the Sydney metro elevated and recycling current commuter rail tracks?

[verbatim9]

This is a paragraph out of one of the main Sydney papers talking about costs associated with the Metro. It might give us an approximate on constructions costs associated with CRR.

The advantage of this scheme is that it is cheaper, relatively speaking, to build rail tunnels than to build rail stations. The 15-kilometre tunnels recently dug for the north-west line, for instance, cost about $1.15 billion. But one underground rail station costs half a billion alone.

A few members including myself advocated for tunnelling to be completed and station fitouts, rail laying and eletrification to be done later in stages. I remeber places like Rotterdam did quite that. If its only 1.15 billion per 15 km of tunnelling Crr could start now and the have the tunnelling completed. Means also Bne Metro could easily be tunnelled too

***Can Council or State Gov book in the tunnelling machines before they go back overseas or they might be using them in Perth for the new Airport line?***

[tazzer9]

This is a paragraph out of one of the main Sydney papers talking about costs associated with the Metro. It might give us an approximate on constructions costs associated with CRR.

The advantage of this scheme is that it is cheaper, relatively speaking, to build rail tunnels than to build rail stations. The 15-kilometre tunnels recently dug for the north-west line, for instance, cost about $1.15 billion. But one underground rail station costs half a billion alone.

A few members including myself advocated for tunnelling to be completed and station fitouts, rail laying and eletrification to be done later in stages. I remeber places like Rotterdam did quite that. If its only 1.15 billion per 15 km of tunnelling Crr could start now and the have the tunnelling completed. Means also Bne Metro could easily be tunnelled too

***Can Council or State Gov book in the tunnelling machines before they go back overseas or they might be using them in Perth for the new Airport line?***

TBM's dont work like that,  they are built solely for one job.   Most don't even return to the surface, they are buried and filled over with concrete.

   

Isn't most of the Sydney metro elevated and recycling current commuter rail tracks?

Yes and no.   Epping - chatswood section was designed for future conversion to metro but that was sort of bungled up.   
Most of the bankstown line is going be recycled into the metro.   This makes sense since the stations are close together and will allow for more services from other lines thru the city and in return more frequent services to bankstown.   might also allow for some realignment to get rick of the kinks in the line.   But that is bungled by not going all the way to either regents park or sefton. 

I have also heard that one pair of the illawarra tracks between redfern/sydenham and hurstville will be converted to metro. 

[ozbob]

Media release 27th March 2016

SEQ: Moving on with public transport

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers has said it is now time to move to sort out public transport in Brisbane and SEQ.

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"The overall strategy for sorting out public transport in SEQ and Brisbane is simple."

"First: Steps must now be taken to sort out the Brisbane bus network. Turn Victoria Bridge into a green bridge, fix up the Cultural Centre Bus station, start reforming the bus network so that the number of near empty buses in the CBD can be reduced and buses deployed to the suburbs where they can actually service our community. Roll out frequent feeder buses to key bus and rail stations."

"Second: Fare review, time this was completed. Continuing to delay this essential reform is not acceptable."

"Third: Advance Cross River Rail - this will enable the needed capacity on the rail network in SEQ, and importantly also deliver significant mass transit capacity into and out of Brisbane CBD.  Cross River Rail is equivalent to a 30 lane highway in terms of increased passenger mobility."

"The recent Brisbane Council election highlighted the idiocy of public transport policy in Brisbane . It is clear what needs to occur from here."

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

Is Queensland being left behind in the ' cargo cult ' world of infrastructure ? ?



================

Melbourne Age --> Andrews to Turnbull: enough tram selfies, give us $6.3 billion for commuters

[BrizCommuter]

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2016/03/will-cross-river-rail-be-metro.html
Will Cross River Rail be a Metro?

[ozbob]

^ 

Twitter

Robert Dow ‏@Robert_Dow now Brisbane, Queensland

BrizCommuter: Will Cross River Rail be a Metro?

> http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2016/03/will-cross-river-rail-be-metro.html ... ... #qldpol @TMRQld @StirlHinchliffe @Team_Quirk

[ozbob]

I am sure readers will find this interesting, to say the least ..   

http://statements.cabinet.qld.gov.au/MMS/StatementDisplaySingle.aspx?id=40383

===========================

Premier & Trade
The Honourable Peter Beattie

Thursday, April 14, 2005

First Class Berth For City Rail In Infrastructure Plan

Premier Peter Beattie has revealed the South East Queensland Infrastructure Plan will include an investigation of a new Brisbane River rail crossing and an expanded inner-city rail system.

Mr Beattie said the project was just a taste of the Infrastructure Plan, to be released on 27 April.

"This $4.5 million investigation could lead to a second rail bridge over the Brisbane River, or a tunnel under the river, plus new stations and tracks," Mr Beattie said.

"It could possibly even lead to a new inner-Brisbane network of tunnels.

"We will need a second rail crossing of the Brisbane River at some future date, to meet demand from the one million extra people who will live in the region in the next 20 years - not to mention the extra tourists and business travellers.

"Estimates suggest the Merivale Bridge and CBD rail tunnels will approach capacity by 2016.

"We are talking about a huge investment of dollars and thousands of jobs for skilled workers.

"A river tunnel alone would cost well over $2 billion, while a bridge would cost well over $1 billion.

"It is imperative that the planning, feasibility and design work are spot-on.

"You could not have a tunnel unless you expanded the inner-city underground rail system."

The investigations will commence in 2006-07 and take an estimated three years.

"The rocketing popularity of the Citytrain network is driving planning for more rail services," Mr Beattie said.

"Last year, through our Smart State Building Fund, the Government announced a $247 million expansion of track and rail services on the Beenleigh-Gold Coast line.

"Add to this $123M for track duplication and extension of the rail line to a new station at Reedy Creek, which the government announced last month.

"Ultimately, many of these extra trains roll into Roma Street across the Merivale Bridge.

"I love this extra demand for rail, because it is a safe and environmentally friendly way to travel, and the more it is used the more we can invest in a world-class service for Queenslanders," Mr Beattie said.

The Merivale Bridge opened on 18 November 1978, to meet the needs of electrification of the Citytrain network which commenced in 1979.

"Back then, locomotives hauled passenger carriages," Mr Beattie said.

"Today about 90,000 passenger services and 3,000 freight services cross the bridge in each direction every year.

"The fact we are talking about another rail crossing 27 years after the Merivale Bridge was opened underlines the government's determination to plan smartly for the escalating popularity of South-East Queensland."

14 April 2005

What year is it now?  2016?  That's right ... right o !  Whaaa aaaahhh

[kram0]

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/brisbane-cross-river-rail-queensland-government-to-announce-new-version-to-relieve-train-crisis/news-story/887bac9f5a9246bea5b71448bcdbd437#load-story-comments

Better then nothing, but cutting corners if you ask me. The original CRR was the correct approach.

[verbatim9]

Crr will service Albert St and Brisbane Metro will service the new casino. Makes sense now!

[kram0]

Crr will service Albert St and Brisbane Metro will service the new casino. Makes sense now!

Doubt metro will be built or CRR for that matter, I certainly hope I am wrong!!

[verbatim9]

I think CRR will get built with a revised alignment for Brisbane metro! Most likely underground too!

[Gazza]

Couriermail --> Brisbane Cross River Rail: Queensland Government to announce new version to relieve train crisis

THE State Government is poised to announced a new cross river rail project aimed at relieving a looming Brisbane train capacity crisis.

It is understood a new tunnel, a scaled-back version of the original Cross River Rail project, will link Dutton Park to Bowen Hills with a new underground inner-city station on Albert St.

The maligned project, which is urgently needed to prevent the train network reaching capacity by 2021 on the busiest services, has been forced to undergo several route changes and remains unfunded.

Under the latest incarnation, it is understood Cross River Rail would travel from Dutton Park to Exhibition station, at Bowen Hills, and involve a 5km tunnel beneath the river and CBD.

It would involve new stations at Woolloongabba, Boggo Road and underground on Albert St and a major upgrade to Roma Street station.

The original Cross River Rail (see above video) was priced at $8 billion and involved a ­station further south at Yeerongpilly, where land was ­resumed.

The Newman government scaled back the proposal and linked it with Brisbane City Council's plans for a tunnel for buses, which also face ­capacity problems.

The Courier-Mail understands the Government has abandoned the LNP's decision to run the tunnel along George St to service Queens Wharf. Buses will also not be part of the new iteration.

The proposed project could cost as much as the LNP project, which was estimated at $5 billion. The business case is not expected to be finished until mid-year when it will be sent to the Federal Government, along with a renewed push for help to fund it.

The Courier-Mail understands Deputy Premier Jackie Trad is considering establishing a body to help find opportunities to fund the project, which has been on the cards for seven years.

Lord Mayor Graham Quirk was briefed on the project earlier this week, sparking speculation an announcement could be made as early as today.

Cr Quirk is pushing to build his own metro system after holding office following last month's council elections.

Commuter Jason Waddell catches two separate trains to and from work each week.

"Our current hub model limits that connectivity between suburbs and other areas," he said. "They need to do something about the pricing as well."

SHORTEN'S CROSS RIVER PLEDGE

BILL Shorten will pledge to help end Brisbane's public transport nightmare by declaring Cross River Rail his "highest priority" for the city.

The Opposition Leader will reveal in Brisbane today that a Shorten government will direct its new concrete bank to provide Queensland's capital city with its own "underground", sparking a jobs bonanza and heralding an end to the state's severe infrastructure inertia.

Mr Shorten, who will today tell a People's Forum hosted by The Courier-Mail and Sky News at Redcliffe, in the marginal seat of Petrie, that he will invest in Queensland's future.

"Cross River Rail is Labor's highest infrastructure priority in Brisbane,'' Mr Shorten said.

"That's because I know that Brisbane deserves a public transport system of the highest quality."

Under Mr Shorten's plan, Labor would establish a concrete bank, that operates similar to the $10 billion Clean Energy Finance Corporation.

Under the plan, Infrastructure Australia would be recalibrated from an assessment body to an independent body that operates similar to the Reserve Bank of Australia.

It would be given $3.6 billion from the Building Australia Fund and taxpayers would borrow a further $6 billion.

It would receive a new financing mandate to "mobilise private-sector finance".

[ozbob]

As we suspected, somewhat truncated.  I guess the core is there though.

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

7th April 2016

Cross River Rail plan number 3

Good Morning,

Some exciting news.

Couriermail --> Brisbane Cross River Rail: Queensland Government to announce new version to relieve train crisis

Although this is somewhat truncated from the original plan - no Yeerongpilly connection, the core is there.  Cross River Rail will deliver mass transit capacity to the CBD, as well as enabling the entire rail network for SEQ.

It is important that consideration be given to allowing trains a smooth transition from and to the Cross River Rail alignment from the Northern Line as well.  Capacity constraints apply to the north as well as the south.

The Quirk ' Metro ' as proposed during the Council Election is simply not needed.  Bus network reform and sorting out Victoria Bridge and the Cultural Centre bus station will save many billions of dollars. Brisbane might well need a proper metro down the track but it does not a half baked non-solution metro now.  It is scandalous that Brisbane City Council is network reform refractory - it is time TransLink was given the proper authority to sort out the festering Brisbane bus mess.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[#Metro]

The proposed project could cost as much as the LNP project, which was estimated at $5 billion. The business case is not expected to be finished until mid-year when it will be sent to the Federal Government, along with a renewed push for help to fund it.

Not sure what CM is basing this off (nothing?), but if it were true then that implies the costs for single tunnel double deck tunnel are similar...

In which case I would suggest putting in double deck from the start.

In fact, it is worth asking TMR how different the costs are for single versus double deck tunnelling.

Even if it is slightly more, if it solve the bus issues, you could claim a contribution from BCC for that.

[#Metro]

There is no animation (yet), so this is already a very good sign! 

[ozbob]