Cross River Rail Project

[Stillwater]

Don't forget the bombshell that LNP never thought BaT would ever get built -- they just needed a plan to get through the election campaign.  Scott Emerson continues to play the politics, makes not effort to achieve a viable outcome.

[ozbob]

Don't forget the bombshell that LNP never thought BaT would ever get built -- they just needed a plan to get through the election campaign.  Scott Emerson continues to play the politics, makes not effort to achieve a viable outcome.

Yope!



http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/senior-lnp-figures-say-bat-tunnel-was-former-premier-campbell-newmans-impossible-dream/news-story/b3cf6ec188393f8bc04176ea3be57083

[ozbob]

The BrizCommuter Rail Capacity Study - a very long blog post!
Looking at what can be achieved pre and post Cross River Rail.
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2016/02/the-brizcommuter-rail-capacity-study.html

Nice work!  I have distributed this post as well.

Thanks for your ongoing committment for lifting SEQ out of transport mediocrity!   

[ozbob]

Victoria has completed the business case for the Metro rail tunnel, and made demands on the Feds already

> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=9930.msg169702#msg169702

Meanwhile in Queensland, still trying to cobble together a business case for Cross River Rail ...   hey ho ..

[verbatim9]

Thats not surprising. I have written to my local Northgate MP Leanne Linard for CRR to be delivered ASAP but haven't heard back as yet?

[kram0]

I heard last week from someone within the construction sector that he believes CRR3 is going to follow the same alignment as BaT, but with no bus component. The southern portal would also be located at Dutton Park and not Yeerongpilly. I certainly hope this is incorrect for the obvious reasons.

[ozbob]

Might be true. The properties at Yeerongpilly were sold off.

[kram0]

Might be true. The properties at Yeerongpilly were sold off.

Could they purchase the land back on a compolsory basis?

[ozbob]

Guess the Government could, but whether or not they will is the issue.

[#Metro]

Who knows, maybe it will be monorail or sky rail for all we know!!   

Anything is possible!

[kram0]

Who knows, maybe it will be monorail or sky rail for all we know!!   

Anything is possible!

Unfortunately this project is pie in the sky at the moment, we can only hope of a governemnt starting it within 2 years.

[#Metro]

Unfortunately this project is pie in the sky at the moment, we can only hope of a governemnt starting it within 2 years.

Yes, but pie in sky often tends to land on one's face.

If they do not build it, I think they will be thrown out of office. Congestion and rail network meltdown in peak hour would precipitate that.

[mufreight]

A more logical approach would see this project go ahead without the gold plating that the present concept contains and start the tunnels from between Fairfield and Dutton Park with provision for the tunnels to be extended back to Yeeroongpilly at a later date.
The State Government could force the Commonwealth's hand by actually making a construction start on the Dutton Park to Wooloongabba section which could in part be financed by the sale of the air rights above the Woolongabba station site.
Shovels in the dirt now with a looming Federal election would make it more than difficult for whichever party were to win to not fund the project.

[kram0]

Unfortunately this project is pie in the sky at the moment, we can only hope of a governemnt starting it within 2 years.

Yes, but pie in sky often tends to land on one's face.

If they do not build it, I think they will be thrown out of office. Congestion and rail network meltdown in peak hour would precipitate that.

100% agree, I hope they just get on with it. It's a much needed peice of infrastructure.

[verbatim9]

Hopefully get a new Roma Street station as per the previous plan

[Gazza]

See that is the exact stuff I think should be dropped!

That wavy canopy above the Roma st surface platforms looked good, but at the same time it is just a bit of vanity and not needed for CRR to actually work.

Roma St does look a bit 90s (Like Coomera, Helensvale, Nerang etc)

But at the same time the station is reasonably fit for purpose, and money is better spent on upgrades at stations which lack lifts and desperately need them.

[verbatim9]

See that is the exact stuff I think should be dropped!

That wavy canopy above the Roma st surface platforms looked good, but at the same time it is just a bit of vanity and not needed for CRR to actually work.

Roma St does look a bit 90s (Like Coomera, Helensvale, Nerang etc)

But at the same time the station is reasonably fit for purpose, and money is better spent on upgrades at stations which lack lifts and desperately need them.

And more escalotors. Those peak only escalators always going in the wrong direction for me. Plus water cooled aircon would be good. That place has stagnant humid air all the time.

[Stillwater]

Murfreight's idea is out of left field, but has worked before.  NSW government wanted a bypass of Armidale, but feds would not come to the party.  State government built the bridges on the bypass alignment and got the community to lobby for the road to connect them up.  It worked.  The result was a bypass of Armidale.

[verbatim9]

Murfreight's idea is out of left field, but has worked before.  NSW government wanted a bypass of Armidale, but feds would not come to the party.  State government built the bridges on the bypass alignment and got the community to lobby for the road to connect them up.  It worked.  The result was a bypass of Armidale.

Wow! The last post really off topic or cryptic

[red dragin]

Murfreight's idea is out of left field, but has worked before.  NSW government wanted a bypass of Armidale, but feds would not come to the party.  State government built the bridges on the bypass alignment and got the community to lobby for the road to connect them up.  It worked.  The result was a bypass of Armidale.

I understand this is similar to how MBRL got underway, the Council put up their share and said "play along or face a voter backlash" to the State & Fed's.

[verbatim9]

Ah! funding solution

[#Metro]

See that is the exact stuff I think should be dropped!

That wavy canopy above the Roma st surface platforms looked good, but at the same time it is just a bit of vanity and not needed for CRR to actually work.

I agree. Or maybe Quirk et al can put a 'fountain' on it.

[kaykayt]

I prefer the portal starting at Yeerongpilly. Links to Ipswich line

[verbatim9]

I prefer the portal starting at Yeerongpilly. Links to Ipswich line

That would be good

[petey3801]

Yeerongpilly area portal should be the only option: Build it once, build it properly!

[dancingmongoose]

By having the portal at Dutton Park all you do is move the bottleneck from the Merivale and create a little bit of room thanks to not competing with Cleveland. Ideally for me it would be somewhere south of Salisbury to avoid as much freight movement as possible, but that probably isn't feasible due to cost so Yeerongpilly is a fair compromise. Cannot be any close to the city than that. And as well, there needs to be proper throughrouting on the northside, not terminate at Roma St and run dead to Mayne.

[SurfRail]

If they wanted to start the tunnel as far south as Runcorn like they originally intended a long time ago that wouldn't go astray... Runcorn to Strathpine would be even better! 

Anything that omits a Cleveland line interchange is asking for trouble.

[#Metro]

I would like to see all Gold Coast and Beenleigh line trains use the new tunnel. Beenleigh line needs the tunnel as it has many stops and is very slow.

Cleveland line can be left to go via South Bank and South Brisbane. There should be an interchange at Park Road.

Happy to have the tunnel dive at Dutton Park as well.

[verbatim9]

Thats a good outcome

[SurfRail]

I would like to see all Gold Coast and Beenleigh line trains use the new tunnel. Beenleigh line needs the tunnel as it has many stops and is very slow.

Cleveland line can be left to go via South Bank and South Brisbane. There should be an interchange at Park Road.

Happy to have the tunnel dive at Dutton Park as well.

The inner Beenleigh all-stations service should remain via South Bank.  The Cleveland line does not require 20 trains per hour to itself, and there needs to be room for Flagstone services eventually - 24 trains per hour allows 7-8 minute headways to each of the Gold Coast, Beenleigh and Flagstone, which should help remove quite a bit of pressure from Mains Road as well.

Wherever the dives are, there must be 4 tracks absolute minimum between the terminus of the inner Beenleigh pattern and the tunnel dives.  The inner Beenleigh line pattern must be operationally separate from whatever goes through the tunnel in order to prevent compromises to the ultimate capacity of the tunnel.

[#Metro]

The inner Beenleigh all-stations service should remain via South Bank.  The Cleveland line does not require 20 trains per hour to itself, and there needs to be room for Flagstone services eventually - 24 trains per hour allows 7-8 minute headways to each of the Gold Coast, Beenleigh and Flagstone, which should help remove quite a bit of pressure from Mains Road as well.

I cannot believe that people are building out at Flagstone. It is so far away from anything!

Mains Road is better served by BRT or LRT down the Mains Rd corridor which links up all the shopping centres directly, rather than rail on the periphery IMHO.

I'm happy to see both GC and Beenleigh trains go via CRR. Current Beenleigh line is too slow, and the Flagstone, that's very far off - timetables can be changed if that needs to be built, if ever.

[nathandavid88]

If you are a young family wanting to buy a house and start a family, for example, the $120,000 land prices on offer are very attractive. Same deal with the smaller new estates going in around Holmview, Logan Village and the other big one at Yarrabilba (and the equivalent developments out Ipswich way and up around North Lakes).

Between Yarrabilba and Flagstone, Jimboomba is going to become a very busy centre in the coming years.

[kram0]

If you are a young family wanting to buy a house and start a family, for example, the $120,000 land prices on offer are very attractive. Same deal with the smaller new estates going in around Holmview, Logan Village and the other big one at Yarrabilba (and the equivalent developments out Ipswich way and up around North Lakes).

Between Yarrabilba and Flagstone, Jimboomba is going to become a very busy centre in the coming years.

Agree. For those not on high incomes, this would be a great place to live and be within an hour of the
CBD. With the population growth that is forecast for Brisbane and SEQ, they need to live somewhere.

[ozbob]

I am presently at Wulkuraka... Plenty of good options between Wulkuraka and Rosewood.. The big plus is the railway is here..

[nathandavid88]

Very true, and  I think we will likely see further development out that way as well.

[SurfRail]

I cannot believe that people are building out at Flagstone. It is so far away from anything!

This is worth remembering.  We aren't all homogeneous.

http://humantransit.org/2016/01/who-is-not-in-the-room-a-question-for-2016.html

[#Metro]

I am presently at Wulkuraka... Plenty of good options between Wulkuraka and Rosewood.. The big plus is the railway is here..

Exactly. Rail is already there.

Rail is expensive at around $100-200 million per kilometre. It is 30 km to join the interstate railway line, which puts the price tag around $3-6 billion. It is about one hour to reach by car, and as a rule of thumb a PT time is about 2x this, so you are looking at something around 1.5 - 2 hours journey all up by train door-to-door.

Unless the line is HSR, I strongly doubt this area will ever have good PT. It might be similar to the service people get out at Cleveland or Redlands. These areas are often built without Central Business Districts, so almost the entire suburb gets up and commutes to the nearest major city in the morning. The exception here is somewhere like Springfield.

It would make more sense to densify existing areas and extend the Ferny Grove Line. It is reasonably short and would give competitive journey times to the City. Places like Cedar Woods should also be allowed to be more dense.

[Gazza]

Couple of points.

-Yes I agree with expanding Ipswich in a linear manner along the Rosewood line. Those stations along the line that serve horse paddocks (And cows) annoy me, and need to be more useful.

But LD, I think you are being a bit disingenuous. I get that you dislike major infrastructure projects, but at the same time that doesn't make it acceptable to throw around false figures to win an argument.

-$6 billion for a 30km line is an absurd estimate, RRL cost less than that, despite being longer, and having some pretty major surgery on the inner city segments around footscray.
This would be a greenfields project.

-How does your rule of thumb hold water? It's basically saying a railway is equally as slow as a bus.
The current 540 from Beaudesert to the CBD already can do the journey in 2h.
Why would a new rail line be equally as slow?
Even the 100km journey from Nambour to Central is still less than 2h.

Current slow speeds on existing rail lines come down purely to them originally being agricultural railways with close station spacings...A legacy network.

Any line to Flagstone would be built to the same engineering standards we have seen on the other newer railways to the Gold Coast, Springfield, Beerburrum etc.

Any line to Flagstone and Beaudesert would only have to share the current legacy network for about 4km (From the Salisbury junction to the CRR portals at Yeerongpilly)

By my calculations, it is about 45km from Flagstone to Roma St.

I'd estimate the following stops based around the corridor study:

-Flagstone
-New Beith
-Greenbank
-Boronia Heights
-Hillcrest
-Algester
-Acacia Ridge
-Salisbury (I imagine you could actually drop this one, and make everyone change at Yeerongpilly for services south)
-Yeerongpilly
-Boggo Rd
-Wooloongabba
-George St
-Roma St

An average spacing of 3.5km.

The closest comparison in Australia would be the Joondalup (Butler) line, which does the 41km, 13 station run from Elizabeth Quay to Butler in 44 minutes (3.15km average spacing)
If I rejig to include the next station south at Canning Bridge, that brings the journey to 47km in 51 minutes.

So to sum up, trains would get from Flagstone the CBD in under 50 minutes, certainly not the 1.5-2h stat you were quoting.

The current off peak driving time to Flagstone is 46 minutes, and this would inevitably be slower in peak given you'd be passing through the congested stretch through browns plains, and of course battling the M3 from 8MP (And in fact having to leave the gateway and use surface roads to access the M3)

It's another 22km to Beadesert, which you'd be able to cover in 15 minutes (It's a similar distance as Helensvale to Varsity)

To conclude,a railway to Flagstone (And eventually Beaudesert) would be at least as fast as driving, faster in peak, and around twice as fast as the current bus service.

[Cam]

Gaza, I'm not connected with either but the new owners of the former high school at Nyanda and the Construction and Training Centre at Salisbury would think otherwise to bypassing Salisbury as a junction.

Regardless, such a railway service is required soon. Traffic on Beaudesert Rd is heavily congested in peak periods and becoming worse every year.

[#Metro]

-Yes I agree with expanding Ipswich in a linear manner along the Rosewood line. Those stations along the line that serve horse paddocks (And cows) annoy me, and need to be more useful.

We both agree here.

But LD, I think you are being a bit disingenuous. I get that you dislike major infrastructure projects, but at the same time that doesn't make it acceptable to throw around false figures to win an argument.

I have no objection to Gold Coast Light Rail, despite it being expensive. It's more based on whether it stacks up and fits with what I value in a city. I understand that the last part is subjective and different for everyone, but when you get a bill for a few billion to pay for other people's choices, it matters...

I get the land is cheap from a private perspective, but from a public perspective, it is not cheap at all. Certainly not compared to what others have mentioned with the Rosewood line, for example.

Are the figures 'false'? A future projection is neither true nor false until it is actually brought into existence.
It is only then we can say with certainty what it is. Projections are only more or less likely, or more or less sound.

-$6 billion for a 30km line is an absurd estimate, RRL cost less than that, despite being longer, and having some pretty major surgery on the inner city segments around footscray.
This would be a greenfields project.

Well, it isn't helped by the fact you choose to delete the lower bound of that ballpark range and just quote the absolute maximum top figure of $6 BN. Why present it like that?

I wrote "which puts the price tag around $3-6 billion." That is a ballpark range.

Is the RRL electrified? Is the topography flat like Melbourne?

So I don't think it (the range) is absurd at all. The construction figure for Moreton Bay Rail Link is around $1.15 billion for 12.6 km, which works out to be about $91 million/km. Then you have to throw in the trains etc. For a range, I think it is reasonable.

-How does your rule of thumb hold water? It's basically saying a railway is equally as slow as a bus.
The current 540 from Beaudesert to the CBD already can do the journey in 2h.
Why would a new rail line be equally as slow?
Even the 100km journey from Nambour to Central is still less than 2h.

So to sum up, trains would get from Flagstone the CBD in under 50 minutes, certainly not the 1.5-2h stat you were quoting.

Yes, but a journey isn't just station to station is it? It is door to door.  I did write "door to door".
There are connection times, frequencies, etc to deal with. You've only presented station to station estimates.
I budget about 1 hour to get door to door within Brisbane. I would imagine that it would be more for further away.

In summary, its looking pretty mediocre.

I think to extend PT out that far, it is going to be expensive to construct, expensive to operate (unless the train is driverless), and take a long time. It's not going to be a big anchor like in Perth with Joondalup or Mandurah for a very long time.

There are a lot of other regions/places in SEQ (I am thinking SC coast here) that would have a higher claim on funds than Flagstone.
There's plenty of cheap land out at Springfield!