Cross River Rail Project

[ozbob]

Twitter

Robert Dow ‏@Robert_Dow 3m

Cross River Rail Project
>  http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=2034.msg162538#msg162538 ...

#qldpol #auspol

@BriggsJamie @TurnbullMalcolm @jackietrad @TMRQld

[#Metro]

Can I please have the details about what the main drawbacks of the BaT tunnel were? I know the lack of Park Road interchange was one of these.

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

13th October 2015

Re: The State Government of Brisbane City Council?

Greetings,

Gold Coast City Council showing how to lead with public transport reform.

Lord Mayor Quirk still clinging onto the past and the failed BaT project.  Bus network reform will deliver better results for a fraction of the cost.

How to do it? >>  http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=11047.0  No cost for this year long work, we are happy to help.

In case you missed it, the BaT was just a Newman pipe-dream in the end ...

Senior LNP figures say BaT Tunnel was former premier Campbell Newman's impossible dream

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/senior-lnp-figures-say-bat-tunnel-was-former-premier-campbell-newmans-impossible-dream/story-fnn8dlfs-1227373555703

SEQ needs a proper integrated public transport network.  Brisbane City Council is presently not a team player.  Public transport network planning needs to removed from BCC and TransLink be given the authority to get on with it.  The Gold Coast shows with its 25% plus patronage gain what can be achieved when a council is truly a team player.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

Sent to all outlets:

12th October 2015

The State Government of Brisbane City Council?

Greetings,

Deputy Premier Jackie Trad appears to be on the cusp of having her Transport Portfolio functions taken over by Lord Mayor Graham Quirk.

Brisbane Lord Mayor Graham Quirk will bypass the state government and directly lobby Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull to provide federal funding for the city's abandoned Bus and Train Tunnel.

(Source: BrisbaneTimes http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/lord-mayor-graham-quirk-to-lobby-federal-government-for-bat-tunnel-funds-20151012-gk71zs.html)

This is not the first time a minister of transport has lost control of their own portfolio functions to Brisbane City Council. The previous transport minister lost control of the bus review, and what should have been a TransLink State Government project ended up being done poorly by the contracted bus operator. This is not how it is supposed to work. Agencies are supposed to plan the network, contracted suppliers are supposed to deliver it. Not the other way around.

Now it is happening again. Brisbane City Council is a bus operator, not the Department of Transport and Main Roads.

This is not the first time The Lord Mayor and Brisbane City Council have simply decided to 'ram through' a project. They did it also with the Maroon CityGlider, giving little notice.

The financials of the BaT tunnel do not stack up. The project has around three times lower public benefit than the original Cross River Rail (compare Net Present Values, higher NPV is better).

Cross River Rail (CRR): Net Present Value (2012) $2.3 Billion in benefits; Cost-Benefit Ratio of 1.42 rising to 1.63 if wider economic benefits were included.

Bus and Train Tunnel (BaT): Net Present Value (2014) $0.64 Billion in benefits; Cost-Benefit Ratio of 1.16

Lord Mayor Graham Quirk is fully aware that Brisbane needs bus reforms.

We again call on Deputy Premier Jackie Trad to terminate all of Brisbane City Council's public transport functions, before she too finds her transport portfolio functions usurped.

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

References:

Brisbane's future: Lord Mayor Graham Quirk pushes for ways to forge ahead with the best river city
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-29/birsbanes-future-lord-mayor-graham-quirk-pushes-for-best-city/6812384

BaT versus Cross River Rail
http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=11047.msg161721#msg161721

Cross River Rail (CRR):
Net Present Value (2012) $2.3 Billion in benefits;
Cost-Benefit Ratio of 1.42 rising to 1.63 if wider economic benefits were included.

Bus and Train Tunnel (BaT):
Net Present Value (2014) $0.64 Billion in benefits; Cost-Benefit Ratio of 1.16

The numbers speak for themselves. The BaT project is vastly inferior to Cross River Rail.

[ozbob]

Twitter

Robert Dow ‏@Robert_Dow 4s

'Re: The State Govt of BCC?'

> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=2034.msg162559#msg162559 ...

#qldpol #ausppol

@jackietrad @TurnbullMalcolm @BriggsJamie @Rod4Bris @Team_Quirk

[ozbob]

Can I please have the details about what the main drawbacks of the BaT tunnel were? I know the lack of Park Road interchange was one of these.

BaT was basically a compromise on a compromise.  Lacked the necessary network enhancements north and south, lacked real future proofing eg. options for North West corridor, station cavities and locations.  It would have also locked SEQ into highly inefficient costly failed network design for bus.

The real killer is that even the LNP realised it was in the end a pipe dream.  My view is that SEQ dodged a bullet with the end of the BaT. 



http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/senior-lnp-figures-say-bat-tunnel-was-former-premier-campbell-newmans-impossible-dream/story-fnn8dlfs-1227373555703

[Stillwater]

It would be a tragedy if the planning and construction of both the Queens Wharf complex and CRR do not coincide and we are left with a situation where an underground station cannot be provided along the CRR underneath, or in very close proximity, to the new casino.

[ozbob]

The situation means that CRR alignment will be Albert St.

(Unless there is a sudden conversion up on high to tap into value capture with Queens Wharf ... )

[petey3801]

Can I please have the details about what the main drawbacks of the BaT tunnel were? I know the lack of Park Road interchange was one of these.

Pretty sure it has all been said before, but anyways:

- Dutton Park area start for the tunnel is a much less suitable entrance than Yeerongpilly area, due to:
      *A Yeerongpilly tunnel routing allows higher frequency trains to run on the Beenleigh line (Assuming Kuraby trains run via the current route and Beenleigh/Gold Coast run in the tunnel), as they don't share the corridor until south of Yeerongpilly (CRR also had a lot of surface works between Y'pilly and Salisbury to increase tracks etc.);
      *CRR tunnel (plus associated surface works) allows the DG to become freight only from Salisbury to Dutton Park (and onwards to Port). No surface works but still a Y'pilly tunnel allow the DG to be freight only from Yeerongpilly to Dutton Park/Port, still a very good outcome;
      *Much more room for the tunnel portal around Yeerongpilly/Clapham, allowing greater surface works to be done at a later time (or at the same time);
      *Y'pilly tunnel allows the possibility of a Corinda via South Brisbane service to recommence in the future, due to much less traffic on the current surface route.
- No northern tunnel connection for BaT. This is a big one, due to:
      *It is not just the Maryvale bridge that is at capacity, the city is basically at capacity also;
      *The routes that currently tack on to the end of Beenleigh/Gold Coast lines (Airport and Ferny Grove) still have to go somewhere, therefore still take up paths through the City. Likely these would start/terminate at Roma Street or maybe Park Road. If that latter, then BaT actually will achieve absolutely nothing in relieving congestion on the Bridge and through the City. If the former, BaT would still not do anything to relieve congestion through the City, and in fact may make it worse with more Roma Street terminating/Originating trains causing conflicting movements;
      *Through routing (as per CRR) to the north relieves pressure through the City as well as across the bridge, as the trains from Beenleigh/Gold Coast will still hook up with a northern pair (not Ferny, but depending on what surface works take place, GC-Airport and BNH-SHC linkings can work);
      *Through routing relieves pressure from the north side as well, which is also at/very close to capacity, thereby allowing more trains in to the City from the northside as well as the southside.
- No Park Road interchange makes things more complicated and less streamlined from a network perspective, meaning more complex/crappier connections between Beenleigh/Gold Coast lines and Cleveland line and South Brisbane/South Bank, as well as UQ connections etc.
- BaT also has the obvious BS of locking in the current reality of having buses and trains competing with each other, instead of simply doing proper bus network reform.

Let alone the fact that BaT was going to cost nearly as much, if not more, than the final costing of CRR (not that crap $8bn or whatever that the media keep bringing up, the final costing was much closer to around $5bn from memory).

[ozbob]

Queensland Parliament Hansard

https://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/documents/hansard/2015/2015_10_13_DAILY.pdf

Questions without notice

South-East Queensland, Rail Network

Ms GRACE: My question is to the Deputy Premier and Minister for Transport. Will the Deputy
Premier advise the House on the government's plans to improve the capacity of South-East
Queensland's rail network and how these plans compare with previous plans?

Ms TRAD: I thank the honourable member for Brisbane Central for the question. I know that the
member for Brisbane Central is a passionate advocate for public transport in her electorate. We are
getting on with the job of delivering improvements to the South-East Queensland rail network. We are
delivering stage 2 of light rail on the Gold Coast and we are planning for improvements in the heavy rail
network.

Cross River Rail remains the government's highest infrastructure project. The project is critical
to support economic growth, to combat congestion and also to boost economic productivity in our
region. A project team is working to finalise the preferred alignment and rail station locations, but I can
confirm that there will be no bus element included. The fundamentals of Cross River Rail are the same
as when Infrastructure Australia gave the project Ready to Proceed status, the highest ranking status
possible under Infrastructure Australia, in both 2020 and 2013.

I am aware of media reports that the Lord Mayor is intending to lobby the Commonwealth
government for funding for the Newman government's bus and train tunnel. Let me make it clear that
there is no comparison between Cross River Rail and Campbell Newman's bus and train tunnel. The
bus and train tunnel was still at fantasy stage: no funding was allocated or committed for construction,
the final alignment for the project was not endorsed, the necessary properties were not acquired, the
final approvals were not in place and no contracts were let for construction works.

Mr Springborg interjected.

Ms TRAD: I take the interjection of the member for Southern Downs in relation to the
infrastructure plan. For three years those opposite came into this parliament without one single
infrastructure project of their own, without an infrastructure plan for our state. They can put all of this to
rest if they come into this place and table for the benefit of the House and for the benefit of Queensland
their infrastructure plan, their ideas for infrastructure for South-East Queensland.

But I fear that we will be waiting a very long time, because so obsessed are they with doing the
internal numbers over whether the member for Everton will be leader by the end of the year or whether
the member for Southern Downs will hold on to his job as Leader of the Opposition. This is why
Queenslanders booted them out—because they were focused on themselves, they were focused on
fighting Queenslanders and they were not focused on Queenslanders themselves. I hope that those
opposite remain fixated with themselves and we will get on with the job of delivering jobs for
Queenslanders.

[verbatim9]

Be exciting to see a new simulation and station map plus design. ☺

[Stillwater]

Read Ms Trad's lips:

"We are delivering stage 2 of light rail on the Gold Coast and we are planning for improvements in the heavy rail network."  (Still no plan to deliver improvements to the heavy rail network, just more planning while politicians put off how they will fund things.)

"Cross River Rail remains the government's highest infrastructure project."

(Not the new Townsville Stadium?  It would be political advantageous to Labor to deliver a piece of infrastructure for the north, if only to demonstrate that SEQ doesn't get favoured all the time.  The stadium was an election promise -- they are always the 'highest ranking'.  Maybe CRR is the highest ranking infrastructure project, but won't be the next built, due to its cost.)

[ozbob]

Couriermail Quest --> Residents no closer to answer on cross river transport solution

[ozbob]

Twitter

AnnastaciaPalaszczuk ‏@AnnastaciaMP 14m

Delivering my #stateofqld address today @ceda_news #qldpol



================

Twitter

AnnastaciaPalaszczuk ‏@AnnastaciaMP 9m

Our priority list submission to Infrastructure Australia once again features Brisbane's Cross River Rail. #StateofQLD #qldpol

================

Twitter

AnnastaciaPalaszczuk ‏@AnnastaciaMP 9m

The project is critical in unlocking productivity - not just in Queensland but nationally #StateofQLD #qldpol

[ozbob]

So Quirk is batting for the non-acronym BaT, and the state is prioritising CRR  ...

Yes folks, it is Queensland. 

Time public transport planning was removed from BCC me thinks ...

[colinw]

(Not the new Townsville Stadium?  It would be political advantageous to Labor to deliver a piece of infrastructure for the north, if only to demonstrate that SEQ doesn't get favoured all the time.  The stadium was an election promise -- they are always the 'highest ranking'.  Maybe CRR is the highest ranking infrastructure project, but won't be the next built, due to its cost.)

The Townsville Stadium was a Bipartisan Pork Barrel with full LNP support as well.  Probably due to the marginal nature of some of the Townsville seats.

Want Government action - make your seat marginal.  Gold Coast Light Rail phase 2 being built by an ALP administration in safe LNP territory is very much an aberration.

Anyone who thinks one party is better than the other in regard of public transport funding has their head buried firmly where the sun don't shine IMHO.

[STB]

Read Ms Trad's lips:

"We are delivering stage 2 of light rail on the Gold Coast and we are planning for improvements in the heavy rail network."  (Still no plan to deliver improvements to the heavy rail network, just more planning while politicians put off how they will fund things.)

"Cross River Rail remains the government's highest infrastructure project."

(Not the new Townsville Stadium?  It would be political advantageous to Labor to deliver a piece of infrastructure for the north, if only to demonstrate that SEQ doesn't get favoured all the time.  The stadium was an election promise -- they are always the 'highest ranking'.  Maybe CRR is the highest ranking infrastructure project, but won't be the next built, due to its cost.)

I tend to agree.  Politically, they need to be displaying some more attention to North Queensland, given that there seems to be constant (in some ways, quite rightly) complaints from the north, that they always seem to miss out on key infrastructure upgrades.  The win of the Cowboys in the recent Grand Final, probably has cemented the stadium as well.

[colinw]

Speaking of FNQ, whatever happened to the busway project in Cairns?

[verbatim9]

http://m.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/future-of-roma-sts-brisbane-transit-centre-still-uncertain/story-fnihsrf2-1227612861506

The Roma St Transit centre.

THE future of one of Brisbane's ugliest buildings remains up in the air, with the State Government unsure whether it will keep, demolish or alter Roma St's Brisbane Transit Centre.

[verbatim9]

http://m.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/future-of-roma-sts-brisbane-transit-centre-still-uncertain/story-fnihsrf2-1227612861506

The Roma St Transit centre.

THE future of one of Brisbane's ugliest buildings remains up in the air, with the State Government unsure whether it will keep, demolish or alter Roma St's Brisbane Transit Centre.

Just from observations Retail is in decline in that centre as well as maintenance and modernisation. So I expect it to be demolished and replaced with a new practical solution

[red dragin]

Needs a refit in the retail areas and modern facade on the lower levels. It's stuck in the 70's/80's, that's its main problem.

[James]

The issue with Roma St is that it is primarily a short-haul transfer point. Unless your kiosk/restaurant is behind the gates (or just outside), nobody is going to pick up something to eat because the wait time is short (as most of the services going through there are frequent). You also have the issue that the food outlets that are there are out of sight and up difficult-to-find escalators.

The fact there's a massive car park right next to Roma St station is also a great example of a failed transit paradigm. What is it with Queensland and building giant carparks right next to major stations? There's the Wickham St one right next to Central, KGS carpark right above KGSBS and Roma St carpark right next to the station (I'll ignore the Myer Centre/QSBS as that is privately owned).

The layout needs a rework and there needs to be easier access up to the food complex - dare I say maybe put one or two outlets behind the ticket barriers (via a level 2 access?). Not sure how it'd work, but it needs improvement. Might also be an idea to put an office complex there - would be a great idea to have TMR or TransLink living near there, rather than in Mary St (a long way away from any decent PT outside of peak!).

[achiruel]

KGS carpark right above KGSBS

To be fair, KGS car park was there long before KGSBS existed.

[cartoonbirdhaus]

Needs a refit in the retail areas and modern facade on the lower levels. It's stuck in the 70's/80's, that's its main problem.

Roma St Transit Centre probably get more pigeons than people: 

http://www.ipernity.com/doc/brisbaneishome/391212

[SurfRail]

The whole thing needs to be completely levelled.

It's an absolutely horrible way to enter Brisbane, yet strangely fitting.

[verbatim9]

The whole thing needs to be completely levelled.

It's an absolutely horrible way to enter Brisbane, yet strangely fitting.

I agree

[SteelPan]

Proposal, as we're still dancing around the fire, of a maybe, of a theory, of what could be....here's one for the "they'll call me nuts" crowd:

2nd CBD rail corridor [hopefully with a bus tunnel in there somewhere to the Southside] RAIL element continues UNDERGROUND, all the way [twin bored tunnels] in a more direct route, with limited 2/3[4 max] interim stops, to a new underground Beenleigh station, and then resurfaces, to meet the existing higher-speed GC rail link.

Long-term, the existing Bris/Beenleigh/GC corridor just isn't going to cut it.  This corridor has enormous potential. [ie, current rumours of a Disney Park at Coomera etc] whether these types of specific projects make it or not, this corridor's growth is simply exploding, with billions at stake.

Beenleigh/GC [particularly IF/when taken down to the Tweed region]  has real potential - the rail side of it,  is not going to work based on existing corridor limitations Bris/B'Leigh.

Snigger when you first think of it, but ponder it for 5mins and the reality does set in!  Underground higher-speed Brisbane/Beenleigh and then on to the GC is the real answer.

[error]

I'd also like to jump on the foaming bandwagon and suggest sending the Gold Coast trains via a new line out behind Cleveland/Redland bay. Seems to be a bit further than the current route but hopefully it could be put on a  good alignment that lets expresses run at decent speed.

Some things to note:

• It seemed a bit hilly - probably drive the cost up
• There were some wetlands areas that the line might need to avoid
• Wasn't sure what do do around Capalaba - so went with the traditional Queensland answer and said 'put it in a tunnel'
• To save cost most of the 'suburban' city stations could be skipped
• This would probably stop BCC putting in their eastern busway

All-up I think a project of this size would cost in the range of $10-20 billion so it wouldn't quite some time/ever. Also, there a are a lot of other priorities to deal with in the mean time like the north coast line/inland highways etc.

[verbatim9]

A good solution for the new Redlands Mega Suburb too ☺👍

[achiruel]

Doesn't really help all the people living in the wastelands between Park Rd and Beenleigh though, does it?

[SurfRail]

My preferred ultimate foam solution would be to move to a standard gauge 200kph route taking over the old Gold Coast alignment from Beenleigh south, paired with a new route inbound.  Interchange at Park Road, build roughly as per CRR alignment to Roma St, then via NWTC to Strathpine.  Dual gauge treatment as far as Beerwah, then CAMCOS (which would never see a narrow gauge train).

Upgrade all stations south of Beenleigh, plus Strathpine, Petrie and all stations Petrie to Beerwah to take 12 car trains, and ensure the bit between Beenleigh and Strathpine can do the same.

Trains every 7-8 minutes during the day comprised of 4tph Sunshine Coast to Gold Coast with 4 tph Beenleigh to Caboolture (same stopping pattern for both would probably be sufficient), more in peak.

You could do this by keeping to narrow gauge and 6 car trains of course.

[error]

Doesn't really help all the people living in the wastelands between Park Rd and Beenleigh though, does it?

I'd hope that with the free track space that the Beenleigh line would be extended to Ormeau then split up into 2 services. An all stops to Kuraby and express to the city, then another service that starts at Kuraby going all stops to the city.  Alternatively there would still be more space to through in a couple of extra services on the current pattern.

[kaykayt]

What's happening to the Corinda-Yeerongpilly line. Will Ipswich trains divert through Cross River Rail too? Or at least be connected via that line?

[ozbob]

What's happening to the Corinda-Yeerongpilly line. Will Ipswich trains divert through Cross River Rail too? Or at least be connected via that line?

Not normally was the basic plan.  However, the original proposed portal at Yeerongpilly did allow for the possibility of some express services from the Ipswich going via CRR.  This would be useful say for direct services to the 'Gabba for cricket/football specials etc.

It is all up in the air now.

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

30th November 2015

The BaT is dead!

Good Morning,

SEQ Mayors in Canberra this week lobbying ...

No doubt Lord Mayor Quirk will be attempting to bat on for the BaT (bus and train tunnel).

We challenged the basis of the BaT in 2014, suggesting it was a very flawed project.  Bus network reform for Brisbane will save billions of dollars.  Tunnels and concrete is not always needed - how is that for a novel point of view?

See Media release --> 14 Sep 2014: SEQ: Will the BaT fly?

If there are any lingering doubts about the BaT, reflect on this Couriermail piece.

Couriermail --> Senior LNP figures say BaT Tunnel was former premier Campbell Newman's impossible dream




What needs to happen is the bus network for Brisbane needs to be reformed.  We have outlined an approach to achieving this:
Brisbane - bus network proposal 

It is a bus network solution, not the solution.  A proper reform process with community engagement will result in the optimum network for all.

Cross River Rail is the project that stacks up and delivers the goods for SEQ.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

realestate.com.au --> What will the new Brisbane River Crossing mean for property?

[verbatim9]

When is the new Crr route due to be announced?

[Derwan]

When is the new Crr route due to be announced?

We don't know.... but my guess is just before the next election.

[verbatim9]

Isn't  that election going to be Oct 2018 because of the change to four year terms. It's a long way off!

[ozbob]

Isn't  that election going to be Oct 2018 because of the change to four year terms. It's a long way off!

No the present government is locked into 3 years.  If the referendum to go to 4 years gets up, it will be the next government that is up to 4 years.  Not this one.  Election is due 3 years from January 2015, so it could well be in 2018 as is.

I think a 524-GoodnaGlider is more probable than CRR in this Government cycle ... 

[verbatim9]

I think dual guage sleepers/studs should be laid in the tunnel and new track either end of the tunnel for prep for conversion to standard guage.