Cross River Rail Project

[dancingmongoose]

Or just delete the paper url+jargon and replace it with .news.

Would you mind explaining this further ?

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/queensland-infrastructure-spending-the-big-three-projects-well-borrow-to-fund/story-fntuy59x-1227395436740

becomes

http://www.news.com.au/news/queensland/queensland-infrastructure-spending-the-big-three-projects-well-borrow-to-fund/story-fntuy59x-1227395436740

[HappyTrainGuy]

Yep. Also.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/subscribe/news/1/index.html?sourceCode=CMWEB_WRE170_a&mode=premium&dest=http://www.couriermail.com.au/travel/australia/great-barrier-reef-heritage-ruling-aussies-dont-understand-how-reef-perceived-overseas/story-fnjjv0r9-1227425915475&memtype=anonymous

becomes

http://www.news.com.au/travel/australia/great-barrier-reef-heritage-ruling-aussies-dont-understand-how-reef-perceived-overseas/story-fnjjv0r9-1227425915475&memtype=anonymous

[newbris]

^^ Thank you both !!

[ozbob]

Sunday Mail 5th July 2015 page 18

Traps with Peter Cameron

Casino bidders will dig deep

[v6hilux]

Saturday 18th of July will go down as a DARK DAY in Brisbane's traffic history - it was all for a Bloody Soccer game.

Had there been seven more road river crossings - I don't think that would have made any difference!

EDIT - because I didn't say it right the first time!

[verbatim9]

I will happy if they (The Government/Tender) commit to tunnelling and building the shell leaving the station fit outs, track laying, and electrification till later. At least you have the bulk of the job done!

[ozbob]

Albert St alignment does have some advantages in terms of being a little more central, in terms of day to day passengers.  I guess they will have to re-work the passenger projections based on the Casino development.

It does seem that any notion of the new Casino development sharing a station precinct is now out of play however.

[SurfRail]

^ That remains to be seen.  There is somewhat of a precedent in the form of the GCUH station shell which was put in place when the GCUH itself was being built and well before the tramway got there, albeit that was under different circumstances (not deep level, part of a project that was actually proceeding etc).

The planning scheme comes out soon anyway, so will have to see what it has to say on the matter.

[SteelPan]

Given the utter inability of Qld, to get underway on some form of CRR/BAT - or any other rose by any other name. Are we able to get the second phase of "backward Brissies" token underground underway, with the West End link that was proposed?

[v6hilux]

Construction of the new roads into the new estate off Pub Lane Greenbank has now started - 1200 home sites (PEET is the developer). This is inline with the EDQ's (Formerly ULDA) plan for the Greater Flagstone area. In addition, it has just been announced a 1000 acre site has just been acquired by Mirvac and they play to build 3000 home sites in a lot cornered by Teviot Rd and Greenbank Rd, starting next year (also part of the EDQ plan).

Both these sites are within one KM to the proposed location for a passenger train station at Greenbank. There is no real high density employment in the area and the government needs to start building the CRR now, to allow there to be a passenger train service for the future residents of these new home sites to the rest of the system and not choke the roads on the south side of Brisbane.

[Stillwater]

Can we at least get back on the table an agreed alignment and scope of the CRR whatchamacallit.  Then we know what we are dealing with and how much it would cost. 

[SurfRail]

That will take months now.  Both CRR and BaT relied on assumptions which are no longer possible for various reasons, including but not limited to the fact many of the properties which were resumed or proposed to be resumed (especially for CRR) are no longer under government control.

If I was the Commonwealth Government, even I wouldn't give money to Queensland for this.  There isn't anything which IA could actually assess. 

They do have to get moving on sorting something out and fast.  Who knows, they may be able to take advantage of a more friendly government after the next Federal election, whether it is a Labor or Coalition mob running it.

[techblitz]

Construction of the new roads into the new estate off Pub Lane Greenbank has now started - 1200 home sites (PEET is the developer). This is inline with the EDQ's (Formerly ULDA) plan for the Greater Flagstone area. In addition, it has just been announced a 1000 acre site has just been acquired by Mirvac and they play to build 3000 home sites in a lot cornered by Teviot Rd and Greenbank Rd, starting next year (also part of the EDQ plan).

Both these sites are within one KM to the proposed location for a passenger train station at Greenbank. There is no real high density employment in the area and the government needs to start building the CRR now, to allow there to be a passenger train service for the future residents of these new home sites to the rest of the system and not choke the roads on the south side of Brisbane.

looks like beaudesert rd is going to cop another hit from all this.....theres already massive delays at peak south of calamvale/compton into browns plains/hillcrest....grand plaza will be a major vehicle attractor from these developments...good luck with that seriously...and surely teviot/middle rds will need an upgrade as well(widening/lighting.....on the bright side park ridge transit must be frothing at the mouth with all that development.

[v6hilux]

on the bright side park ridge transit must be frothing at the mouth with all that development.

I was actually thinking that myself, but at the moment, besides for the dedicated AM and PM school buses, there is NO public bus service that current goes anywhere near the area. As it stands now, it's a 10 + minutes drive by car from the area to catch a bus - may as well drive the extra two minutes to where you are going!

[SurfRail]

Just the other day somebody was asking TransLink about whether there was a bus to the Greenbank shops.

[v6hilux]

Glad I wasn't on the Queensland Buses (PRT?) school bus that crashed this morning, going a full bus length into the trees off Stoney Camp Rd Greenbank. It might make the news, but hopefully it was empty apart from the driver.

[Jonno]

That will take months now.  Both CRR and BaT relied on assumptions which are no longer possible for various reasons, including but not limited to the fact many of the properties which were resumed or proposed to be resumed (especially for CRR) are no longer under government control.

If I was the Commonwealth Government, even I wouldn't give money to Queensland for this.  There isn't anything which IA could actually assess. 

They do have to get moving on sorting something out and fast.  Who knows, they may be able to take advantage of a more friendly government after the next Federal election, whether it is a Labor or Coalition mob running it.

There is plenty of funding available it is just being spent on freeway expansion !!!!

[v6hilux]

There is plenty of funding available it is just being spent on freeway expansion !!!!

Correct!

Federal funding will always flow freely to the National road network and rail will never ever be be able to cater for road traffic, due to dedicated routes, however, the facts are proven that new rail projects on Trunk routes known to have millions of possible passengers will always be a help to reduce the current road congestion.

[hU0N]

There is plenty of funding available it is just being spent on freeway expansion !!!!

Correct!

Federal funding will always flow freely to the National road network and rail will never ever be be able to cater for road traffic, due to dedicated routes, however, the facts are proven that new rail projects on Trunk routes known to have millions of possible passengers will always be a help to reduce the current road congestion.

Not true actually. Even in Brisbane. Building Airtrain was followed by steadily increasing traffic congestion at the airport. Building the SE Busway has seen both the busway and the freeway become gridlocked. Since Springfield railway was opened, M5 congestion has become noticeably worse.

If anything, new railway/busway projects take some cars off the road, creating extra space that induces extra traffic that more than fills the newly available space.

[hU0N]

Public Transport does nothing positive for congestion, but by building railways and busways as well as adequate roads, you get more people and things through the inevitable congestion in the same amount of time. That is the benefit of transit.

[ozbob]

Human Transit --> what does transit do about traffic congestion? (updated)

[SurfRail]

Public Transport does nothing positive for congestion, but by building railways and busways as well as adequate roads, you get more people and things through the inevitable congestion in the same amount of time. That is the benefit of transit.

While I agree with the latter, it is far from clear cut that the former is true universally.  What it can do is reduce congestion in specific on-street localities rather than generally.  Certainly don't think anybody is claiming a railway will make a motorway flow better though.

[hU0N]

Public Transport does nothing positive for congestion, but by building railways and busways as well as adequate roads, you get more people and things through the inevitable congestion in the same amount of time. That is the benefit of transit.

While I agree with the latter, it is far from clear cut that the former is true universally.  What it can do is reduce congestion in specific on-street localities rather than generally.  Certainly don't think anybody is claiming a railway will make a motorway flow better though.

I'd agree, but only where the specific locality experiences higher levels of localised congestion versus the system generally. Here a specific project, carefully designed, could be expected to bring the specific locality back in line with the rest of the system. (E.g. Fixing the gateway merge on the M1).

Ultimately, I think, the goal of infrastructure spending should be to:
A) Ensure the system breaks down gracefully and evenly, rather than simply locking up at one or two choke points.
B) Ensure that the system capacity at breakdown is a little more than just high enough to support the expected amount of economic activity being enabled by the system.

[Stillwater]

Re a reincarnation of CRR, Ms Trad must defrag her brain of the political shadow boxing that the red and blue team engage in endlessly and drop all thoughts of asking the feds for billions of dollars for a project that now just exists in theory.  It would be asking the feds to buy a pig in a poke.  Remember when CRR was the No.1 top priority infrastructure project in Australia, assessed as such by IA, shovel ready and with a dollop of federal government money on top?

That project took at least five years of planning.  Is there capacity in the network to suffer another five years of doing nothing?  And then another 3-4 years of construction until we can capitalise on the work...  Is this evidence of Brisbane as a 'world class' city?

[ozbob]

...  Is this evidence of Brisbane as a 'world class' city?

Nope!   

[#Metro]

It is obvious that the unofficial policy is to build nothing for three years. This is public dynamite, so an anti-blame device is required, sheeting the blame home to Tony Abbot is very convenient for this purpose. Remember, blame is the avoidance of responsibility.

Perth managed to double the rail network and put twin tunnels under the Perth CBD with NO federal funds.

CRR is dead. They just haven't come out and said it. There is actually no plan, no design, NOTHING. So nobody - including the feds - know what is to be funded, short of writing a carte blanche cheque. Nobody knows if there is a station at Park Rd or not, nobody knows whether it is one tunnel or two, nobody knows whether it goes via Albert St or George St or whatever.

It's gone. It would take years to redraw everything from scratch, and do all the proposals all over again. PLUS a big plan like this now needs two rubber stamps - one from IA and now another one from Building Queensland.

It's not looking good, and it might be lost already.

[ozbob]

As James put it ...  just plans in an infinite loop.



You're welcome!   

[Stillwater]

We need the government to move to a DO DO DO chart.

They better RUN RUN RUN before the circumstances overwhelms them.

[ozbob]

The original - Crystals 1963,  appropriate as this is where the clock stopped for transport planning in banana-land ...

[ozbob]

Well ... well ...

=======================

Media Statements
Deputy Premier, Minister for Transport, Minister for Infrastructure, Local Government and Planning and Minister for Trade
The Honourable Jackie Trad
Thursday, August 27, 2015

Planning moving forward on rail capacity solution for South East Queensland

The Palaszczuk Government is moving ahead with planning to deliver extra capacity on South-East Queensland's rail network.

Deputy Premier Jackie Trad said the Government was committed to transforming and revitalising the rail network to benefit Queenslanders and provide a more efficient public transport system that can cope with forecast demand.

"Increasing the capacity of our rail network is one of our top priorities, we are working to identify solutions," Ms Trad said.

"Our assessment will include an investigation of elements of the Cross River Rail and Bus and Train projects to identify a preferred solution to address these capacity issues.

"It will also include a detailed assessment of the feasibility of introducing New Generation Signalling to the inner city rail network.

"Improved signalling would allow for a higher frequency of services on our most constrained part of the network, unlocking additional capacity that would benefit the entire region.

"Considerable cost and time savings will be achieved during this evaluation phase by using planning prepared as part of the previous projects – that work will not be wasted."

"However, there will be no combination of buses and trains in the Cross River Rail design going forward.

"Buses and trains play different roles in our transport network and combining them in the same corridor does not make sense," Ms Trad said.

Ms Trad said the project team would deliver an updated business case of a preferred project to be considered by Government.

"The Queensland Government will include a complete business case as part of a funding submission to Infrastructure Australia and the Federal Government for this urgently needed project," she said.

"We will also seek to re-establish the ready-to-proceed status previously applied to the Cross River Rail project."

[ozbob]

... "It will also include a detailed assessment of the feasibility of introducing New Generation Signalling to the inner city rail network.

"Improved signalling would allow for a higher frequency of services on our most constrained part of the network, unlocking additional capacity that would benefit the entire region ...

[v6hilux]

On the point of renewing signalling - total waste of money. Smoke and mirrors. It will only be moving "bottle-necks" in the system.

New physical solutions are needed - a new CRR is badly needed.

[ozbob]

They are talking both ...  see > http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=9832.msg157189#msg157189

CRR was always predicated on ATP. 

[ozbob]

The other good thing in this statement is this:

"However, there will be no combination of buses and trains in the Cross River Rail design going forward.

"Buses and trains play different roles in our transport network and combining them in the same corridor does not make sense," Ms Trad said.

Hallelujah! Brisbane bus network reform here we come ... 

[BrizCommuter]

On the point of renewing signalling - total waste of money. Smoke and mirrors. It will only be moving "bottle-necks" in the system.

New physical solutions are needed - a new CRR is badly needed.

Half-decent modern signalling (such as ERTMS-Level 2) could allow for around 24tph, a 20% increase in maximum realistic capacity. However to allow this, the branches of the network would require quite a few track amplifications (notably on the Beenleigh/Gold Coast corridor).

Modern signalling is required anyway to allow for ATP. Lack of ATP in SE Queensland is an accident waiting to happen.

[Stillwater]

"Our assessment will include an investigation of elements of the Cross River Rail and Bus and Train projects to identify a preferred solution to address these capacity issues.

an investigation of the elements

are we to assume this is a bit of a hybrid project, sans the bus tunnel bit?  No longer BaT, but just 'The T'?

[#Metro]

Close your eyes and ears everyone, just when you think it could not get any worse, maybe, MAYBE it just can.

Return of the Cleveland Solution? Or the 'Fairfield Solution'... 

[#Metro]

A reminder of what the Fairfield Solution is:


Is there a small possibility we see a return to South Brisbane termination? Catch the bus to the CBD? Anything is possible...


http://i42.tinypic.com/igz2o3.png

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

28th August 2015

Queensland's Groundhog Day: Cross River Rail Planning Starts All Over Again

Greetings,

Cross River Rail Reference Design, from four years ago
Source:

RAIL Back on Track welcomes the news that planning for Cross River Rail has (re)started. We welcome the news that upgraded signalling will be considered to improve safety and increase capacity on the existing network and planned extension.

There is a certain feeling of 'Groundhog day' to this though. We have been through this all before: the large volumes of reports, the route alignment maps, the sophisticated fly-through animations, and the fog of uncertainty and vagueness over funding or actual construction horizons.

We expect that construction costs have continued to inflate, and now any new tunnel will be considerably more costly to deliver now.

However, the main issue here is not about the project. It is much larger. The State of Queensland cannot credibly commit itself to large infrastructure projects because neither the political stability, nor the funding capacity exists to see large infrastructure projects to completion. This has caused considerable wastage of valuable public servant time and money, and there is nothing to prevent the next administration coming in and throwing out all of the plans and starting all over again, again.

We note this from the statement:

" ... "However, there will be no combination of buses and trains in the Cross River Rail design going forward.

"Buses and trains play different roles in our transport network and combining them in the same corridor does not make sense," Ms Trad said. ... "

Strongly agreed. It is a basic problem with our network that there is a failure to recognise that buses are not trains, and trains are not buses.

It is absolutely clear that bus network reform must proceed as a matter of emergency. Without an upgraded and reformed public transport network, bus and rail, people are spilling over and congesting the road network. Lord Mayor Graham Quirk and Brisbane City Council must yield on this point, and cease stonewalling the fundamental changes that Brisbane's bus network needs. If that means returning the bus operations back to the State of Queensland, so be it.

If the Mayor of Auckland, New Zealand, can hire the ex-head of Brisbane Transport, Mr Neil Cagney to fix up Auckland's entire bus network, why can't we do the same? The firm's head office is located on Coronation Drive.

Ultimately bringing in fixed-four year terms and options such as land value taxation reforms will give the State of Queensland both the stability and funding capacity to undertake large infrastructure projects without having to continually seek funding approvals from Canberra. We welcome the announcement, but we won't believe it until we see the tunnel boring machines in the ground.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

References:

1. Planning moving forward on rail capacity solution for South East Queensland
http://statements.qld.gov.au/Statement/2015/8/27/planning-moving-forward-on-rail-capacity-solution-for-south-east-queensland

2. SEQ: Suburban rail network needs Automatic Train Protection too!
http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=9832.0

3. Car Congestion Chaos - It's all part of 'The Plan'
http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=11047.msg160367#msg160367

[ozbob]

https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/projects/cross-river-rail/index.html

Cross River Rail

The Queensland Government is moving ahead with planning to reduce congestion on south-east Queensland's rail network.

A Cross River Rail project team has been established to identify a preferred solution to alleviate this congestion, including assessing elements of previous projects.

The study will also assess the feasibility of introducing New Generation Signalling to the inner city rail network, allowing for a higher frequency of services and improving reliability on our most constrained part of the network.

For more information contact the project team on 1800 010 875 or email crossriverrail@tmr.qld.gov.au.