Cross River Rail Project

[ozbob]

But SEQ has had its chances to fix alot of it. NCL duplication. CRR. Signaling Upgrades. New Bus Networks. All sh%t canned 

Personally I'd rather see CRR than the new link to Fishermans Island. With CRR you can ramp up the freights due to the more services going via it rather than on the surface. Also has better outcomes in the future when planning spur lines. Either have them running to the city as their own pattern or interchaning at a station to board a higher capacity express train (9 car Gold Coast-City services).

Yo!   

As it all grinds to a halt, some bright spark will say ' might be time for tunnel, a rail tunnel ' ...

[James]

You wouldn't say the Gold Coast line rebuilt in the mid 90s and extended about a year and a bit ago?

In general, Brisbane is a fair bit behind to the southern cities (namely Sydney and Melbourne) in quite a few areas beyond transport.  When it comes to culture, we're losing places for live bands to make their careers in the Valley with places being shut down, and the Valley being planned to what I call a sterilization by the Brisbane City Council.  Brisbane also lost the film and TV industry back in the 1980s, with main production and sales moving to Sydney and Melbourne.  We don't have the laneways with the artwork on the walls of buildings such as Melbourne does, complete with little cafes.  In terms of a transport network, it's just a bare minimum having to service a very unplanned city that Brisbane is, with a slightly unfortunate geography of where the city was built originally, it was meant to be Redcliffe way back when, before the settlement moved to the current location at North Quay.

I tend to agree with RTT though, Sydney and Melbourne developed quite rapidly much earlier than Brisbane did which really didn't develop until the 1970s, and the tourism and real estate boom of the 1980s namely on the Gold Coast, and unfortunately we're playing catch up to what Brisbane used to be before then, a sleepy country town compared to the Big Smoke of Sydney and Melbourne.

No, GC line doesn't count as the only benefit it has delivered is express trains to Yeerongpilly/Coopers Plains, Loganlea and Beenleigh. Only at Coopers Plains has this actually given the line TUAG frequency.

On the note of Brisbane, BCC and the State government have spent decades trying to create this fake sense of culture and shutting down any true focal points. Instead of letting the valley take its course and flourish into something, everybody has been going around trying to create this fake sense of culture by putting up chain restaurants and expensive coffee shops along Grey Street and calling it Brisbane's "Champs-Elysees" and re-doing places like King George Square with concrete which everybody hates and only serves as a thoroughfare. It doesn't help that large amounts of Brisbane are full of bogans, but I digress. Cities which try and 'create' culture will always fail to create any culture of note.

But yes, Brisbane by and large has failed to create an effective transport network, both road and rail. We have three-lane highways which feed into two-lane roads e.g. Centenary Highway. It is why I'm not against TransApex. The reason why it fails dismally is because Brisbane people can't accept that they may have to pay a toll on their daily commute now and again.

But SEQ has had its chances to fix alot of it. NCL duplication. CRR. Signaling Upgrades. New Bus Networks. All sh%t canned 

Personally I'd rather see CRR than the new link to Fishermans Island. With CRR you can ramp up the freights due to the more services going via it rather than on the surface. Also has better outcomes in the future when planning spur lines. Either have them running to the city as their own pattern or interchaning at a station to board a higher capacity express train (9 car Gold Coast-City services).

^ this. I can't help but spew when I see this paid parental leave scheme handing out money like it is a mother's birth right, yet we somehow "cannot afford" to build a rail link which if not built, will bring the City to a halt transit wise within 10 years.

[ozbob]

Twitter

Penny Sharpe ‏@PennySharpemlc

$4.7bil of urban rail projects gone in 10 sweaty minutes. #ausvotes #publictransport  http://t.co/uuf4l5NfGG

[HappyTrainGuy]

No, GC line doesn't count as the only benefit it has delivered is express trains to Yeerongpilly/Coopers Plains, Loganlea and Beenleigh. Only at Coopers Plains has this actually given the line TUAG frequency.

Only recently has it been an express service for Yeerongpilly, Coopers Plains and Loganlea. For years it used to be express South Brisbane to Beenleigh  EDIT:: Just realized that 2004? wasn't recently.





Sigh. You know you're screwed either way when you don't want to vote in any of them. Why can't there be a party with sensible ideas and policies for once.

[James]

Actually we are probably saying the same thing.
- Sydney, what new route trackage has been laid in last 30 years since the Eastern Sub line was open, East Hills extension, ECRL, Y link, AP line? The system became entangled due to growth on the network

- Mel, lost more than they have gained after the city loop opening with maybe the recent reopening of the Epping line extension. Yes Mel has improved the regional network and expanded the city electrification onto previously no sparked lines. SO has Sydney, at a much greater rate.

- Bris, GC extension (I won't call it reopening because it is basically a new line on different alignment with different stations), CL reopening, AP line, expansion of city corridore, Merrivale bridge, the most significant is the MBRL and the Springfield lines when complete. And yes we had Doomben come and go and come back.
So probably more than down south in proportion of the network. Issue for Brisbane, the network had such a low starting base, the south side probably had lower traffic volumes than Newcastle in 1970's and by-passed much of the population, including the city CBD. BCC running its own bus network hasn't helped. Had this belonged to the state, perhaps some of the decisions of the past would have been toward rail expansion, but if you only have a bus network, why it almost makes sense to stick with same mode technology.

Some of the road projects are certainly questionable, others were mostly needed to get traffic out of the CBD, such as ICB and something was needed to save KS Drive. Rail would not have solved either of these. As the private sector has lost so much money, the council/state have now milked that cow dry.

The frequency agree is a major issue for Brisbane and we have all well discussed this.

I think however Brisbane's time has come and beyond the current budget woes, the state govts from both sides of the fence will expand the network. But the rpoblem with expanding the inner network onto new routes, is that its so damn expensive that defereal defereal deferal just keeps happening. Syd and Mel have been no different here. To build a underground rail system you need population, lots. Low density housing just does not justify the massive cost of a subway network. CRR caters for both local and capacity growth and in the 1990's I don't believe it was justified. Also state govts were all still very aware of the Syd ESR project which as a project was a major failure, dragging on for two decades and how to avoid a repeat.

If Sydney had one big thing rail-wise in the last decade, it was Clearways. Beenleigh/Gold Coast line desperately needs Clearways, as do many other corridors across Brisbane, in order to allow for an increase in frequency. Investments here would be the equivalent of Clearways in Sydney, and would free up room for a rail line down Mains Road. Of course, what we need for that is Cross River Rail.

Regarding CRR, it wasn't justified in the 1990s, but boy it is justified now. It is not about current need, it is about looking into the future and see where growth will occur/is planned to occur in 10-20 years. And as I've mentioned here, CRR was needed 5-10 years ago. The network would be at breaking point had it not been for Bligh's toxic fare increases, making it far too expensive to use PT.

The cost of acting on CRR is high, but the economic cost of not acting on CRR is even higher. Within 10 years, the system will be in gridlock. BCC will have BUZed more busway routes, to the point where busway meltdown is a regular thing. The rail network will no longer be able to handle any more passengers as overcrowding starts to occur on the Cleveland and Ferny Grove lines. Meanwhile in the west, the Ipswich and Centenary motorways will be carparks.

Thank you, politicians, for arguing about the things which don't matter. 

In my personal opinion though, no money should be put into KSD. The people using KSD are the people who are too stupid to bother paying $3.50 (or whatever it is) to use AirportLink. If they want to choose to use the free road, so be it, but we should not be funding a road upgrade to effectively compete with a billion-dollar road tunnel just built. Note that the KSD Duplication was actually mostly replaced by Airport Link.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Looks like the Caboolture line is the best placed of them all. Oh yeah!

[ozbob]

Raise you a coalie on the Ippy!   

[Old Northern Road]

I think Kippa-Ring trains are predicted to be the most overcrowded trains if CRR isn't built. They will need to look at closing down the Doomben line so they can run more Shorncliffe trains.

[minbrisbane]

I wonder if the cutting could be widened.  Could Doomben line convert to light rail and terminate at EJ?

[Golliwog]

I wonder if the cutting could be widened.  Could Doomben line convert to light rail and terminate at EJ?

Give an engineer enough money and you can do almost anything. When CBD capacity bites, shuttles are going to be the way to go. Be interesting to see if they try and get any other lines in on that other than Doomben...

[James]

Give an engineer enough money and you can do almost anything. When CBD capacity bites, shuttles are going to be the way to go. Be interesting to see if they try and get any other lines in on that other than Doomben...

If I was head of TMR and looking to increase rail capacity from the north, Doomben would be dumped in favour of:
- Short-term, 300 BUZ and maybe a BUZ shuttle to Eagle Junction. Maybe rail shuttles for race days if traffic is high enough.
- Long-term, light rail

Ultimately I don't see much future in keeping the line as heavy rail. While it is generally faster than the car, Doomben trains eat up valuable train paths which could be better utilised on Shorncliffe/Ferny Grove trains. In sector II I want to see the Shorncliffe Line with a minimum of 8tph in core peak. This should give adequate frequency to those between Northgate and Bowen Hills to run ALL Caboolture Line/SC Line services express form Northgate to Bowen Hills in peak. It is a net capacity reduction, especially for Toombul/Nundah, but it provides more capacity to passengers further up the line, and scope to simply extend the Petrie terminators to Kippa-Ring, rather than expressing them Petrie - Northgate too.

Doomben line is just too short to attract patronage in its current form. LRT would be a much better way of going about it.

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

6th September 2013

RIP Cross River Rail

Greetings,

Cross River Rail is dead!  RIP ...  a victim of political incompetence from both Labor and LNP.



Suffer Queensland.

So what now?

We need to get cracking with Automatic Train Protection.  This will allow a increase in peak linear density of trains but importantly improve safety on the rail network as thousands try to squeeze on to our dear narrow gauge trains.

The Minister for Transport, the Assistant Minister for Public Transport need to start delivering.  Fare review failure, bus review failure, Cross River Rail failure.  Throw in bridge strikes, it is little wonder we are somewhat concerned.

Best wishes

Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

==================================

Media release 9th April 2013 re-released 6th September 2013



SEQ: Suburban rail network needs Automatic Train Protection too!

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers has said the introduction of Automatic Train Protection (ATP) which incorporates improved signalling is well overdue on the suburban rail network in SEQ (1).

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"Automatic Train Protection (ATP) is a system that relays signal information, track speed information and other track information to trains, and can automatically slow or stop trains if they exceed the track speeds or approach signals at STOP at too high a speed. It will also stop trains that pass a signal at STOP unless a specific procedure is followed."

"There are concerns with rail safety generally and it is time that ATP was introduced on the suburban rail network."

ATP is needed because:

Safety - the current Automatic Warning System installed on Queensland Rail's suburban network will not prevent crashes or derailments caused by:

1) Excessive speed around corners or through switches.
2) Excessive speed through red signals compromising the safe stopping distance.
3) Excessive speed through yellow signals, again compromising the safe stopping distance.
4) Excessive speed on approach to dead end tracks, such as at termini.

ATP will prevent the majority of crashes caused by the above.

Capacity - ATP in conjunction with a high capacity signalling system such as European Railway Traffic Management System - ERTMS - level 2 allows for higher train frequencies and/or higher reliability.  This is important as we approach maximum capacity limits on the Merivale Bridge.

Cost savings - ERTMS level 2 has less track wayside equipment, reducing equipment maintenance costs.  Longer term significant cost savings.

Open market - as ERTMS is standards based, multiple manufacturers can bid for contracts. Multiple manufacturers can also be involved in a contract. Leads times may be faster, and approval processes may be simplified.

"It appears that moves to implement ATP have stalled (3).  We can really afford to wait any longer?"

References:

1. Automatic Train Protection (ATP) http://www.railsafe.org.au/section.jsp?id=8684

2. The European Railway Traffic Management System (ERTMS)  http://www.ertms.net/ertms/ertms-in-brief.aspx

3. Rail Safety Systems Assessment of the South East Queensland Rail Network http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/Safety/railsafety/rail%20safety%20systems%20assessment%20of%20seq%20rail%20network%20update%202.pdf

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[MaxHeadway]

As you might notice, I'm quite anti-Brisbane

Quite justifiably. One can only put up with being surrounded by mouth-breathing pinheads, forced perkiness, boozy degeneracy and jungle-like summers for a finite amount of time.

To me it's a giant retirement village, with white collar nine to five workers keeping it afloat.

Sadly, it is true that all there is to do in Brisbane is work (just to afford a roof over your head now). It's gone from being a hick town to a violent, expensive hick town. Let's put it this way: if I lose my job, I'll do what I can to head south ASAP. It's a lost cause—not just the public transport situation, but in general.

[ozbob]

It is sad, Oz done over by slick polyticks ...  I have little doubt that in time the transport failure will see the state governments fall one by one, and then the King of roads himself. 

Meanwhile off to Melbourne for a few days in a week or so.  Looking forward to it.  Hope to check out some of the Regional Rail Link.  Always good to be on a connected public transport network.  Ding Ding!!   

[MaxHeadway]

Always good to be on a connected public transport network.  Ding Ding!!

There's a lot more connectivity indeed. Especially in the south-eastern suburbs, with the latticework of tram routes such as the 78/79, 16 and 72, but also the high-frequency heavy rail to Frankston, Dandenong and Ringworm.
[Edited to add:] You can just go wherever, at random. Plenty to see (day and night) that doesn't look like something out of the movie Idiocracy!

[#Metro]

Run Doomben trains as a shuttle. Metro Trains Melbourne runs the Williamstown line this way. Yes it is not ideal, but Metro understands that this frees up paths for higher and better uses. Metro also chops the Cranbourne line into a shuttle at night to save money.

I don't think a 5th platform would cost heaps. Land is already there.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Why not turn the Airport into a loop line feeding back into the Doomben line??

[BrizCommuter]

Abbott about to win. Welcome back to the 1960s !

[ozbob]

Abbott about to win. Welcome back to the 1960s !

Election stuff --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=10187.msg131081#msg131081

Roads only Tony - we will have to work on it won't we? 

[Stillwater]

Well, he needs to be held to his promises -- Melbourne-Brisbane inland rail.  We need to hammer him on that.  Also, it may be possible to fashion the case for SCL duplication to receive federal (Coalition) funding on the basis that it is a FREIGHT line.  TA has said that the Coalition will not fund urban passenger rail and he has labelled the SCL as such.  Nonetheless, if it can be proven that the SCL bottleneck has ramifications for rail freight efficiencies serving all the conservative seats up the Queensland coast, it may be possible to construct a case whereby the Coalition federally builds duplicated track (to make freight operations more efficient), while the state LNP government picks up the cost of railway stations, car parks etc. (the passenger rail component, which TA has said his government will not fund.)  Such a deal would recognise the peculiar nature of the SCL as a mixed passenger rail / freight rail / long distance passenger rail route.

[ozbob]

^

=================

Twitter

Robert Dow ‏@Robert_Dow

@TonyAbbottMHR One more thing cobber, Sunny Coast Line. An 'Infrastructure PM' would sort this .. --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=2034.msg131085#msg131085 ... #auspol #qldpol

[BrizCommuter]

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2013/09/se-queensland-this-is-what-you-voted-for.html
SE Queensland - this is what you voted for...

[STB]

Well based on that result last night (expected I know - people are stupid and shortsighted).  I might as well start saving to move overseas, both transport and career wise.  Ack.

[Gazza]

I think now we should focus on pressuring the Qld Government to fund CRR itself....WA is going to push forward with its rail projects by reducing road funding (Since the Feds are effectivley taking up the slack)

[ozbob]

Indeed RTT.  Personally, don't have a major issue with the change of Government in principle, would not have happened if Labor had not let Oz and themselves down.

Look at political history, there are rises and falls. We will still move on.

Re CRR funding, state was prepared to contribute 50%, I really think the rest can come from other sources, part value capture and part 'private' investment.  Superannuation fund infrastructure investment vehicles I think is something the NLP will look at.

[techblitz]

I think now we should focus on pressuring the Qld Government to fund CRR itself....WA is going to push forward with its rail projects by reducing road funding (Since the Feds are effectivley taking up the slack)

with some of australias worst highways and heavy vehicle road use comparable with W.A. I cannot see abbott/newman backing away from the roads promises.
There is a huge difference in quality of roads/casualty rates between QLD and W.A (which doesn't have the bruce highway)
Qld and NSW roads are no doubt abbots biggest transport priority. Australia is still a country heavily reliant on the freedom that a motor vehicle gives. Hence the majority of voters are vehicle drivers hence abbot looks after his majority of voters first. The unfortunate political reality Australia faces for many years to come!

[Stillwater]

Following the federal election, Queensland has wall-to-wall LNP at BCC level, state level and also (now) the federal level.  Our state will have the deputy PM (although Mr Truss does not enjoy a high national profile).  Most likely he will be the Transport and Infrastructure Minister.  Something's gotta give.

[James]

Personally, I think sooner or later something has gotta give. If it is not Abbott who funds it, Emerson will come up with the cash eventually. It will just take a while until the books are better. As the transport network gets worse and worse, the benefit from building CRR increases to a point where it starts costing the government in lost revenue and productivity not to do it.

I am generally quite disappointed with both major parties - both on CRR and more generally. Not voting Liberal would have caused another split vote disaster, and I don't think the economy could take another 3 years of Labor. Labor was only offering $715 million - far from a 50:50 funding split. So in my personal opinion, hardly a vote winner, with Rudd making no clear commitment he'd do a 50:50 funding deal on CRR. And techblitz makes a very good point. Australia, off this forum, is still a very car-obsessed country. I know people who live along BUZ routes and still almost never use public transport. It simply doesn't enter their mindset.

[Golliwog]

Personally, I think sooner or later something has gotta give. If it is not Abbott who funds it, Emerson will come up with the cash eventually. It will just take a while until the books are better. As the transport network gets worse and worse, the benefit from building CRR increases to a point where it starts costing the government in lost revenue and productivity not to do it.

To get it done anytime soon without Federal assistance  is either going to take a large re-shuffle in terms of budget priorities, or reducing the scope of CRR.

[SteelPan]

Congratulations to the new Federal administration.

I'm simply not going to go negative on CRR, up to now we've seen zero action from pollies of both sides.  Let's give the new Federal administration a "fair-go" and see over the next year or two what happens.  I believe if the right proposal can be put forward, it can all happen, as a joint Commonwealth/State/Industry initiative.

As I've previously posted, I don't care in the 21stC who "owns" the infrastructure, so long as it's built and operated to an agreed plan and most importantly, it helps lift our nations sorry productivity.

Lets keep these blokes to TWO great rail projects so far as Qld goes:

1 - Inland Railway (Melb/Bris/ and then northward say 2025+)
2- CRR

[Derwan]

Campbell Newman welcomes Tony Abbott election victory as 'freeing him from shackles' of federal Labor

From http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/special-features/campbell-newman-welcomes-tony-abbott-election-victory-as-8216freeing-him-from-shackles8217-of-federal-labor/story-fnho52jo-1226714817922

But the Premier conceded the state would need to go it alone to deliver the unfunded Cross River Rail project.

The underground rail scheme was to be partly funded by federal Labor - a promise the Coalition never matched.

Before the election Mr Abbott made it clear his government would not fund "urban public transport projects", saying they were the responsibility of the states.

Despite Transport Minister Scott Emerson insisting he would continue to lobby the federal Coalition for funding, Mr Newman said yesterday it was now up to Queensland.

"Cross River Rail is something we're working on, it is our responsibility to come up with the revised project that minimises the capital expenditure and delivers the most benefits," he said. "At the moment we're still working on that. We're still totally committed."

"Revised project that minimises the capital expenditure."  Prepare for the duplication of the Merivale Bridge!

[Stillwater]

It is interesting that Mr Emerson continues to rave on, saying he will 'continue to lobby the federal Coalition for funding' while his boss, Mr Newman acknowledges that Queensland must 'go it alone' on CRR.

The Minister is not on message with the Premier.  That's worrying. A voice doll with a string in its back has a better repertoire of one-liners than does Mr Emerson, sadly.  His mechanism is stuck on two messages – it's Labor's fault and we can't do it without federal money.

We should remember there are backdoor deals that can occur.  For instance, the federal Coalition could, all of a sudden, provide some money for a road project that Queensland had proposed to fund 100 per cent, thereby freeing up state funds to re-direct to CRR.  In that way, PM Tony could still argue he is a 'roads' man while indirectly supplying funds for CRR.

[Cam]

Prepare for the duplication of the Merivale Bridge!

I hope not. I'd prefer the project being delayed a few years & done properly than such a poor solution.

[dancingmongoose]

Seeing as CRR is now effectively dead with the new government, this is IMO the best short term option to avoid over-congesting the Merivale Birdge. Please pardon the huge file size.

Passengers for cleveland from the CBD would change at Dutton Park, for beenleigh at yeerongpilly. There would be additional services bowen hills - beenleigh/cleveland during peak hour. This would be a bit inconvenient for people on the cleveland line, but it means only 2 lines cross the bridge other than the XPT and also gives connection between the ipswich/springfield lines and the gc/cleveland/beenleigh lines.

You can see I got carried away and included the entire gold coast line extensions and the rapid transit. Whoops.

[ozbob]

Prepare for the duplication of the Merivale Bridge!

I hope not. I'd prefer the project being delayed a few years & done properly than such a poor solution.

Just heard a grab on ABC Radio News by Transport Minister Emerson to the effect that as Feds take up more road funding this will allow more state funding of other projects.  Implied Cross River Rail, consistent with the Premiers message today as well.  I was on 4BC radio yesterday suggesting that if the major roads are fed funded there should be more funding for projects such as Cross River Rail.

Still a good chance by the looks of things.  To be frank the election over the weekend has concentrated a few minds on George St I think ..

good!

[Derwan]

Prepare for the duplication of the Merivale Bridge!

I hope not. I'd prefer the project being delayed a few years & done properly than such a poor solution.

Me too - but we're dealing with the LNP... the same mob who thinks FTTN is a sound investment for our future!   

[ozbob]

^ nice dancingmongoose - thanks ..

[dancingmongoose]

^ nice dancingmongoose - thanks ..

So you think it's a viable option?

[ozbob]

Running Cleveland as a shuttle has been mentioned before.  It might be an option if things don't get sorted.

The Tennyson loop line will come into play for sure.

[Gazza]

^ nice dancingmongoose - thanks ..

So you think it's a viable option?

Where do Kippa Ring trains fit into this?