Cross River Rail Project

[ozbob]

From the Brisbanetimes click here!

Political stalemate set to sink Cross River Rail

Political stalemate set to sink Cross River Rail
May 17, 2013 - 1:30PM Tony Moore

Three days after federal Labor promised $715 million as its share of a 50:50 funding package for the Cross River Rail project, a political stalemate appears to have sunk the plan.

Brisbane has one bridge to carry trains from the city's southside to the northside.

That bridge is congested, with train services predicted to be delayed by 2016.

The Cross River Rail project was designed to eliminate that problem by building an underground rail network under the the river and the city.

Early on Friday morning Labor's three heaviest hitters laid out letters which showed the Queensland government agreeing to a 50 per cent funding package for the $5 billion project.

Infrastructure Minister Anthony Albanese said Mr Emerson did not ask for 100 per cent GST concession for the Cross River Rail project.

"Well, he didn't. It's in writing. Scott Emerson was supposed to be here this morning," Mr Albanese said.

"He was supposed to be here this morning and had agreed to be here on the basis of the agreement that was announced in Tuesday's budget.

"Instead of attending this joint press conference to announce formally this exciting project, what we have is the Queensland government playing politics."

However, Mr Emerson has since rejected Mr Albanese's claim.

"I was never part of anything this morning," Mr Emerson said.

"I don't know why Minister Albanese, Wayne Swan are making these claims."

He accused Mr Swan of conning Queenslanders.

However he conceded the two levels of government met on April 24 to reach a deal.

On Tuesday night Mr Swan promised $715 million for the project, and offered to pay a 50:50 share of the repayments to the private sector consortium that raised the money to build it.

Mr Emerson insisted the deal would short-change Queensland because half of the federal government's payments would come from Queensland's share of the GST.

"Because the Labor Government won't exempt the whole project from GST payments, they will only be paying 25 per cent of this project," he said.

"... It's not just the $715 million.

"It's also the availability payments that the state government has to pay

"Availability payments are not about the private sector paying for it.

"Its about the private sector building it and the governments paying this sum off over a period of time."

Mr Emerson and Mr Albanese agreed on one point.

There is interest in the private sector to build the project.

RIP CRR and public transport in Brisbane ...   

[ozbob]

They are all idiots ...

Well,  Melbourne is glad.  Billions for Regional Rail Link and now the Metro tunnel looking good ....

Time to think about moving.    Might live on line to Gembrook.  Even a former VR 2 ' 6" gauge now heritage steam railway (Puffing Billy) has better frequency of service than large swathes of SEQ ...   

[#Metro]

   Games, Games, Games.
Too many fingers in the pie. Too many politicians overcook the broth.

"Availability payments are not about the private sector paying for it.

"Its about the private sector building it and the governments paying this sum off over a period of time."

^ Confirmation that "private involvement" is basically just a legal vehicle for government to borrow behind a company retail front / veneer just to keep the numbers off the government balance sheet.

[Stillwater]

Mr Emerson has also knocked back more than $700m on offer from the Gillard government for widening the Gateway Motorway north of Nudgee on the basis that the federal Coalition has offered to pay $1b towards the cost.  There has never been any link between GST payments and transport funding.  All the GST money goes to the states, not one cent goes to the federal government, which merely collects it.

Clearly Mr Emerson is banking on a Tony Abbott government in power in Canberra after September 2013.

If so, Mr Emerson picks up $250m extra for the Gateway, but loses $715m for Cross River Rail, because Tony Abbott has not promised anything for CRR.  In fact, the federal Coalition policy is that urban rail is a state government responsibility.

So, what is Mr Emerson's game plan?  On the evidence is it is lose Queenslanders $465m.

Mr Emerson is working to knock back $465m that otherwise would come to Queenslanders in a mindless game of politics that has defined his time as Minister.

[somebody]

The way I read it is that there was only ever $178.75 million up for grabs on CRR.  A pittance, really.

[ozbob]

This mob cannot even sort fares, buses let alone major infrastructure ...

The previous mob was no better, arguably worse ....

Politicisation of transport, particularly public transport is proving costly for all of Australia, no more so than Brisbane ...

[#Metro]

I reckon we should have a cross river rail sausage sizzle to raise money for the tunnel and invite the media. 
Our contribution to TMR could be like $10 to help pay for construction.

We could mail a cheque to Scott Emerson as our "contribution". Perhaps we can get "names on sleepers" as well. LOL

Mr Emerson has also knocked back more than $700m on offer from the Gillard government for widening the Gateway Motorway north of Nudgee on the basis that the federal Coalition has offered to pay $1b towards the cost.  There has never been any link between GST payments and transport funding.  All the GST money goes to the states, not one cent goes to the federal government, which merely collects it

My understanding is that payments received for specific purposes (specific purpose payments) does impact on the GST funding allocation by the Commonwealth Grants Commission

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_Grants_Commission

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

17th May 2013

RIP Cross River Rail

Greetings,

RIP Cross River Rail.  The politicisation of public transport in Australia got even worse today in Brisbane.

Political stalemate set to sink Cross River Rail
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/political-stalemate-set-to-sink-cross-river-rail-20130517-2jquq.html

It is no surprise that a Government that cannot address the manifest problems with the failed fare structure for public transport in SEQ, cannot even manage to do a proper bus review, is also unable to drive successful infrastructure projects.

Federal Governments have been funding urban rail projects since 1974.  The Federal Government actually ran the Commonwealth Railways for a long period as well.

Transport failure looms for Brisbane, and all the major capitals because of petty politics and short term electoral cycles.

Enjoy the failure!

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[somebody]

Good to see you've joined the forces of light.  I absolutely agree with your last paragraph + P.S.

[ozbob]

Abbott has said a Coalition Government will not fund urban rail, but will fund roads.  The problem for all the states is that the Feds get the bulk of the revenues and then deal it out as political brown paper bags ...

No major urban rail projects will be able to be progressed by any state because they simply will not have the funds.

There are a number of major projects happening right now in Perth, Adelaide and Melbourne, and for the time being in SEQ (MBRL) that are federally funded in the main.  Without that funding would not be happening.

There are simply major structural financial problems with all infrastructure in Australia, it is not on merit but on political value in the main ...

[somebody]

KRudd promised to do something pretty significant about this constant Federal-State blame game when he ran for PM, and promised a referendum if the states wouldn't agree.  Namely a federal takeover of health.  Then he got in and didn't feel like doing it.  I'm in KRudd's electorate now, I'm going to hate it if I have to vote for him or (effectively) Abbott.

[nathandavid88]

Abbott has said a Coalition Government will not fund urban rail, but will fund roads. 

Apparently Emerson is going to try and convince him otherwise... Let's see how far he gets with that!

Qld Government seeks more cross-river rail funding
By Melinda Howells
Posted 11 minutes ago


Queensland Transport Minister Scott Emerson says a federal funding promise for Brisbane's cross-river rail project is not genuine.

Federal Treasurer Wayne Swan this week pledged $715 million for the $5 billion initiative, but Mr Emerson says that will come at the expense of reduced GST payments.

The Federal Coalition has not committed to any funding for the project.

Mr Emerson says he will continue to lobby both sides of politics.

"I'm disappointed that Tony Abbott is at this stage not backing cross-river rail," he said.

"I've said that very clearly and I'm continuing to lobby both Labor and the Coalition over the next four months to do the right thing by Queensland, to back cross-river rail in a genuine partnership with this State Government."

[#Metro]

Time to start thinking up "novel" ways of funding cross river rail

TrainLotto - turn every station office into a de facto gambling outlet selling TrainLotto Tickets and Commuter Scratchies

Start taking bets on train reliability - I reckon TomWaterhouse.com could be approached here

Install Poker Machines on Train platforms - someone will use them while waiting 30 minutes for their train to arrive

Deregulate the food ban and sell QR Coffee to morning commuters

Sell Airtime announcement rights - while between stations, commuters could be spammed with ads over the PA system- I reckon QLD Gov't and Federal Gov would be interested in this opportunity given the number of ads I have seen in the past week.

Maybe pull out some of the old trains and rip out the interior and turn them into Train Restaurants going from the Gold Coast to Brisbane

Mass development above stations

Tolls on major road arterials leading into Brisbane

Reorganise the bus network to get savings

Seat Tax - If you want a seat, you pay more, discount for standing passengers

Rip out seats on trains and section off two carriages as a designated "seat carriage" and charge extra to enter it

Declare a "massage carriage" on long distance trips (Gold Coast, Ipswich, Caboolture) where teams of massuers would be put on in the PM peak to massage weary commuters on their long journey home. Free for 10 minutes, $30 for half an hour

</sarcasm >

[SurfRail]

Until just recently, Australia was actually about the only federated country which didn't pay for urban transport out of federal coffers in a meaningful way.

The vertical fiscal imbalance needs to be fixed.  That problem goes well beyond just who pays for the railways.  I don't think either side of politics is game to do so, so we will have to struggle on.  Even without this problem, infrastructure projects like CRR are manifestly of national importance and should still attract federal funding.

I think Emerson is being much more petulant here than Swan, but the reality is that the Commonwealth can borrow funds for infrastructure investment considerably more cheaply than the State or the private sector and would probably recoup most of its investment over time through productivity gains generating extra income tax.  They just don't want to add to their bottom line because they are paranoid about debt, even debt incurred for the purpose of financing productivity-enhancing infrastructure.

Interest is simply a cost like concrete or tunnel boring machines - its the price you pay for the availability of the funding when it is needed.  Our current interest bill is negligible and is a price we are paying for the availability of a functioning economy which hasn't tipped off the edge like some of our "colleagues" have done.  If businesses were run like the public seem to be insisting upon, the global economy would cease functioning altogether and we would back to the days when usury was considered to be the devil's handiwork.

[ozbob]

From the ABC News click here!

Qld Government seeks more cross-river rail funding

Qld Government seeks more cross-river rail funding
By Melinda Howells

Queensland Transport Minister Scott Emerson says a federal funding promise for Brisbane's cross-river rail project is not genuine.

Federal Treasurer Wayne Swan this week pledged $715 million for the $5 billion initiative, but Mr Emerson says that will come at the expense of reduced GST payments.

The Federal Coalition has not committed to any funding for the project.

Mr Emerson says he will continue to lobby both sides of politics.

"I'm disappointed that Tony Abbott is at this stage not backing cross-river rail," he said.

"I've said that very clearly and I'm continuing to lobby both Labor and the Coalition over the next four months to do the right thing by Queensland, to back cross-river rail in a genuine partnership with this State Government."

[Stillwater]

The plot thickens.  As predicted by Mufreight and others in this forum, the delay in building the CRR project had added to the cost.  The $4.45b cost of 'CRR Lite' is now $5.4b.  See: http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/funding-stoush-threatens-to-derail-vital-5b-cross-river-rail-project/story-e6freoof-1226645647427

Could that be why Mr Emerson is holding out for more money from the feds, who gave him what he asked for.  Mr E seems to have determined government funding shares based on 2010 prices for CRR Lite.  Anthony Albanese has released documentation showing that Mr Emerson got what he asked for.  Obviously, the state minister has done his homework, realised his mistake in not allowing for cost estimations based on current-day prices (or the prices at the time construction is expected to start), and now wants to renegotiate the deal.

So, the LNP claimed that the $8 billion estimated cost of CRR was too great and was a 'pie in the sky' Labor dream.  It is likely that the cost of the scaled-back version will be more than $5.4b at the time construction starts (say $6 billion), to which we must add the cost of the rail capacity enhancement works now needed because the project won't be ready by 2018, the date when CRR is required.

Just how much will Queenslanders actually save due to the way Mr Emerson has managed this issue, instituting delays while he plays politics at taxpayer expense?

[#Metro]

OMG Cost Explosions at TMR at QR, at BT
It would be cheaper to spend $5.4 billion on one way airfares and housing to Perth for people wanting to move to SEQ.

[#Metro]

Sometimes I think it would be better to just privatise QLD politicians and just elect companies with shareholders to run the state. Can they do ANYTHING without stuffing it up? What is it about Queensland that we have to do bus reviews TWICE and STILL get it wrong when the Kiwis can do it right, no fuss, first time? Why is most of our infrastructure half-baked and with cut corners? Why are politicians at all levels so incompetent? Why Why Why???

[ozbob]

From the Couriermail click here!

Funding stoush threatens to derail 'vital' $5b Cross River Rail project

Funding stoush threatens to derail 'vital' $5b Cross River Rail project

    by: Robyn Ironside and Kelmeny Fraser
    From: The Courier-Mail
    May 18, 2013 12:00AM

THE cost of Brisbane's proposed Cross River Rail project has blown out by almost $1 billion. Last year, Transport Minister Scott Emerson said the LNP Government had been able to almost halve the original $8 billion price tag to $4.45 billion - but it turns out that was in "2010 dollars".

Yesterday, his spokesman said the new figure - $5.2 billion - was the estimated cost of the project in 2020.

Whatever the cost, it might turn out to be academic if a funding deal cannot be reached with the federal Labor Government before September.

Mr Emerson yesterday conceded Opposition Leader Tony Abbott was "not backing Cross River Rail" but he remained committed to lobbying the Coalition and federal Labor.

His federal counterpart Anthony Albanese urged southeast Queenslanders to write to state MPs and demand the Government "accept the deal they had asked for".

"This is a vital project for southeast Queensland," Mr Albanese said.

Under the deal outlined in Tuesday night's Budget, federal Labor would contribute $715 million upfront providing Queensland matched that sum, with the remainder to be funded under an availability public-private partnership.

Mr Emerson has claimed the deal would shortchange Queensland but Mr Albanese said it was more than the state would get under an Abbott-led Government.

"We know that in last night's budget reply, Tony Abbott confirmed that if the Coalition is elected to government in September, they will refuse to fund any further rail projects," said Mr Albanese.

"They simply don't believe in funding rail. Tony Abbott has said the Federal Government should, to quote him, 'stick to its knitting'."

Mr Albanese also warned other rail projects such as Moreton Bay Rail Link and the Gold Coast Rapid transit line could also be in strife under the Coalition.

But a spokesman for Mr Abbott last night said they would honour funding commitments for both those projects because they were already under way.

Twitter

Robert Dow ‏@Robert_Dow

Abbott: "I think it is important that we stick to our knitting ...." your future with Tony http://twitpic.com/cgunfw  #auspol #qldpol #vicpol

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

18th May 2013

Re: RIP Cross River Rail

Greetings,

Funding stoush threatens to derail 'vital' $5b Cross River Rail project
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/funding-stoush-threatens-to-derail-vital-5b-cross-river-rail-project/story-e6freoof-1226645647427

Queensland and Australia are approaching a state of despair.  Mediocre Governments and pretend Governments put short term political positions in front of proper policy for the real community benefit.

Yesterday, in Brisbane massive road congestion all over.  More roads is not going to fix anything.  What will is a decent public transport system that offers the opportunity for more to move off the roads, and in so doing freeing up road space for those who do have to drive such as delivery trucks, tradies and others.

If the Federal Opposition is elected in September, investment in urban rail will cease.  Presently there are major urban rail projects in Perth, Adelaide, Melbourne and in SEQ (Moreton Bay Rail Link and Gold Coast Light Railway).
There is a beginning of a shift to a more sustainable transport paradigm, which looks like being sacrificed on a political alter of mediocre policy come September.

Those who care for the future of Australia can have little confidence in our elected Governments or Oppositions when short term political positions are put before the right thing to do.

More urban roads alone will just lead to transport failure.

Time for a wake up call Australia.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

Sent to all outlets:

17th May 2013

RIP Cross River Rail

Greetings,

RIP Cross River Rail.  The politicisation of public transport in Australia got even worse today in Brisbane.

Political stalemate set to sink Cross River Rail
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/political-stalemate-set-to-sink-cross-river-rail-20130517-2jquq.html

It is no surprise that a Government that cannot address the manifest problems with the failed fare structure for public transport in SEQ, cannot even manage to do a proper bus review, is also unable to drive successful infrastructure projects.

Federal Governments have been funding urban rail projects since 1974.  The Federal Government actually ran the Commonwealth Railways for a long period as well.

Transport failure looms for Brisbane, and all the major capitals because of petty politics and short term electoral cycles.

Enjoy the failure!

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[johnnigh]

How much will freight rail users benefit from CRR? Is their contribution expected as part of the public part of the partnership to finance the whole show?

[somebody]

How much will freight rail users benefit from CRR? Is their contribution expected as part of the public part of the partnership to finance the whole show?

Very little.  I guess less trains passing Fairfield makes it a bit easier to get the empties back from the port.

[Golliwog]

I can confirm the Liberals seem to be sticking to their guns and keeping away from funding projects like CRR deeming them to be State Government responsibilities. I contacted my local Federal (liberal) member when Abbott first made his "stick to our knitting" quote, asking about what that meant for CRR if the Libs win the next election, and after a week or two received a response that contained the following:

The Coalition supports Commonwealth funding for major transport infrastructure projects that enable interstate commerce, export industries and the productive capacity of the economy. This priority was the approach taken when the Coalition was last in office and has been the traditional area of the Commonwealth's transport responsibilities and powers. State and local governments have primary responsibility for urban passenger transport as they are better placed to respond to the needs of the local community in terms of the operation, maintenance and expansion of urban passenger networks.

The Cross River Rail proposal has the potential to benefit Brisbane residents and the project is one for which the Coalition believes the Queensland Government should take the lead. The Coalition will continue to support other major transport infrastructure projects which are joint priorities of the Queensland and Federal Governments and form part of the national network. We have already announced a $1 billion commitment to fund the next stage of the Gateway Motorway Upgrade between Nudgee and the Bruce Highway and we will have more to say about infrastructure projects in Queensland as we approach the federal election.

I responded the same day pointing them to the CRR EIS which listed all the benefits of CRR for freight and the economy, inquired about the Gateway North upgrade and asked about what sort of cost-benefit analysis had been done to show this was where best to spend our money. Of course, it was only yesterday when I got sick of waiting for a response that I called them to ask if I was ever going to get a response to which I was told they had got my email, had forwarded it to the shadow minister (would have been nice to have been told that without having to call them!) and then explained that what Labor had announced for the project in the budget was a con and the project was a State responsibility and they didn't see it getting funding any time soon. As far as I could tell, their basic reason for not replying to me was they didn't want to argue. 

[ozbob]

@RTT  why is ok for the LIBs to fund a road in Brisbane but not a railway line?

It's garbage mate ...  it just political opportunism.  This forum supports rail, projects with much better cost benefit ratios than pork barrel road projects as proposed by Abbott et al.  The funding of infrastructure should be on merit not political con jobs.  Sad fact of life in Oz.

Feds have been funding urban rail since 1974.  The fact is the Feds get the revenues, transport failure looming ...

I think the Coalition will shift from their position eventually as there is a very significant backlash underway nationally, and in any case more roads is going to do nothing to address the fundamental failings with transport, urban and nationally.

Emerson is continuing to push for urban rail funding from both ALP and LIB.  The State Government accepts that the policy by Abbott is wrong as well.

[somebody]

@RTT  why is ok for the LIBs to fund a road in Brisbane but not a railway line?

It's garbage mate ...  it just political opportunism. 

+1.

The fact is the Feds get the revenues,

They should do something about that, and the previously promised Federal takeover of health went a fair way towards solving the problem, and killing another bird at the same time.

I think the Coalition will shift from their position eventually as there is a very significant backlash underway nationally, and in any case more roads is going to do nothing to address the fundamental failings with transport, urban and nationally.

Emerson is continuing to push for urban rail funding from both ALP and LIB.  The State Government accepts that the policy by Abbott is wrong as well.

Well it will be interesting to see.  I'd say that Abbott's "stick to our knitting" comments will cost them votes at the next election.  What a goose!

[Jonno]

But not enough for him to change his philosophy.  Abott gets lected Aust will remain stuck in 1970!!!

[Golliwog]

Honestly I totally agree with the the reply. The Feds should not get involved in co funding of local transport issues and foicus on things that purely impact on interstate. As we have all seen it just gets way to messy with no accountability. Anyone in heavy industry will see the term "SPA" thrown around, or Single Point Accountability to deliverately avoid the confusion and lack of accountability.

I stated this over a year ago, but anyone who thinks that the states throwing up a commuter transport project that costs $6B and expects the feds to pay $5B really has rocks in their head, no matter how good the project is. Its illogical and completely impactical. What next, NSW says we will pay $1B for the complete Metro project and Feds pay $10B because its the best thing for slice bread for Sydney, truct me. Oh well the feds didn't back it, so don't vote me out!

The Feds can pay for as much as the like of the Bruce Hwy, which is part of the National Hwy network anyway and seriously this hwy has come under expreme pressure over last 5-6 years and is a complete mess Brisbane to Rocky, if this leaves more state based funding for the CRR. Likewise the feds should support the NCL improvement on the sunny coast.

My view, Newman will fund the CRR, but they are playing politics pure and simple and its an election year, they know the feds or opposite party are on the nose, they are supporting their fed colleges. However Abbott's comments have not been popular within the party and they WILL find a way to shift with impacting on the original comment publically. Hence while I think they will throw a bucket of money at the Bruce and Gateway, leaving the state with sufficent funds for the CRR.

CRR is not just a local transport project, and saying they should focus on issues the impact on interstate is a cop out. How is the Gateway North upgrade any more about interstate issues than providing a dedicated freight rail track from the POB to Acacia Ridge and the interstate rail line?

[minbrisbane]

The Feds can pay for as much as the like of the Bruce Hwy, which is part of the National Hwy network anyway and seriously this hwy has come under expreme pressure over last 5-6 years and is a complete mess Brisbane to Rocky, if this leaves more state based funding for the CRR. Likewise the feds should support the NCL improvement on the sunny coast.

Why is the Bruce a complete mess Brisbane - Rocky?  Is it unreasonable to say that the NCL in it's current form is preventing efficient freight trains travelling north, forcing trucks onto the higway? 

[somebody]

The Feds can pay for as much as the like of the Bruce Hwy, which is part of the National Hwy network anyway and seriously this hwy has come under expreme pressure over last 5-6 years and is a complete mess Brisbane to Rocky, if this leaves more state based funding for the CRR. Likewise the feds should support the NCL improvement on the sunny coast.

Why is the Bruce a complete mess Brisbane - Rocky?  Is it unreasonable to say that the NCL in it's current form is preventing efficient freight trains travelling north, forcing trucks onto the higway?

I understand that flood damage is some of the problem.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Yep, as Simon said. There are always some sort of speed restriction and repairs in place due to damaged road surfaces and damaged shoulders/infrastructure (particularly around Bundy-Rocky IIRC. From poor surface quality to drop offs on the shoulders/poor drainage/closed during heavy rain/constant flood damage etc. I recall a mate up there telling me that there were also weight restrictions in place for some locations after heavy rain with some vehicles having to take local detours). There are also some nasty black spots/poor visibility along that section of road too.

[somebody]

Look what happens in this group when you suggest that the western coalies should be doubled in length.

What, do people suggest that the passing loops and terminals (probably) would need to be upgraded to handle the increased length?

[mufreight]

Look what happens in this group when you suggest that the western coalies should be doubled in length.

What, do people suggest that the passing loops and terminals (probably) would need to be upgraded to handle the increased length?

I and others have made mention a few times about running 1500m coalies to from the west through to Brisbane to increase capacity here and other forums and the usual it cannot happen to many "excuses" why it cannot.

The NCL should be progressively upgraded to enable double length trains to Rocky and this should be as much fed funded as was the loop extensions through NSW and Vic. But thats another story.

Why not, well crossing loops and the load out and reception sidings for starters then the drawgear limitations on the rolling stock in use and the problems of operating trains with distributed power down the range.
To be practical the trains would need to fitted with ECP braking all of the crossing loops would need to be extended as would the load out facilities and the reception sidings at the unloader at Fishermans Island.
While the larger trains would convey double loads their transit times would be considerably slower due not to their weight but their length.
When Hammersley Iron ran their first tripple headed 240 car trains they found out that there were a number of unforseen problems that cost megga bucks to sort out but given time and the will to spend the dollars to make it work they did and it did resulting in the heaviest trains in the world operated with head end power, larger trains have been and are operated using distributed power and ecp braking systems.
For double size trains to be operated through the metropolitan area would almost of necessicity need a third track from Ipswich to Darra to minimise impact on commuter services.

[somebody]

You only need one or the other of stronger drawgear or distributed power.  Perhaps a bit from column A and a bit from column B bit that would be an odd path to pursue.

Pretty sure you see longer trains than 1500m operating without ECP brakes, e.g. to Ulan, and in NW WA.

[mufreight]

You only need one or the other of stronger drawgear or distributed power.  Perhaps a bit from column A and a bit from column B bit that would be an odd path to pursue.

Pretty sure you see longer trains than 1500m operating without ECP brakes, e.g. to Ulan, and in NW WA.

Once more you exhibit you lack of understanding of the subject that you are making espousals about.
Westbound empty trains could cope with distributed power but the train length and the curvature of the line would hold potential problems if relying on head end power.
For loaded trains coming down the range again due to the grade and the curvature a 1500m long train would be either a considerably slower trip or without ECP an extremely stressful one for the train crew with little margin for error due to the delay in obtaining a uniform brake application throughout the length of the train and the additional length of time to reharge the train line and waggon reservors on the release of the brakes to enable the next brake application, misstime the release and there wouls be insufficent time for a full recharge of the air and the potential of a runaway.
ECP enables the train reservors to be recharged while the brakes remain applied and an even application of the brakes throughout the train which effectively reduces train bunching.

[somebody]

2 brake pipes achieve the same thing.

[ozbob]

From the Couriermail click here!

Budget puts federal projects closer to the too-hard basket

Budget puts federal projects closer to the too-hard basket

    by: Scott Emerson
    From: The Courier-Mail
    May 20, 2013 12:00AM

CHANGES to the normal state-federal funding formula have put future federal transport infrastructure projects at risk.

Hidden in the detail of last week's federal Budget are new arrangements that require hundreds of million of dollars in extra state funding to get federal projects off the ground.

Under the changes worthy projects on the Gateway Motorway, Ipswich Motorway, Warrego Highway and Cross River Rail won't get off the ground.

Upgrading federal roads will become a 50-50 state-federal split and urban rail projects a 75-25 split.

This is a significant shift from the historical split where the Federal Government funded its own infrastructure at least 80-20.

The change has taken place without consultation with the State Government, which means the time is coming to make some tough decisions.

If the Queensland Government is going to live within its means, we won't be signing on to any deal that is going to place further burden on future generations of taxpayers.

Reckless spending from the State Government is not the answer.

As a Queensland Government minister it is my job to fight for Queensland and get the best deal possible to ensure the future of crucial transport projects.

We can't afford to stand by and let the Federal Government handball responsibility to the State Government.

The federal Budget transport announcements were filled with these 50-50 potholes on the Warrego Highway ($317.5 million), Ipswich Motorway ($279 million) and Gateway Motorway ($718 million).

Likewise Cross River Rail (in the Budget at $715 million) will receive only 25 per cent federal funding because the State Government would need to hand over half that amount in GST revenue to plug the hole.

We are prepared to go 50-50 on Cross River Rail, however the sleight of hand deal means it's not a genuine partnership and therefore not affordable.

The repayment on Canberra's offer would put upward pressure on fares, taking southeast Queensland passengers back to the dark days of fare increases in the order of 15 per cent.

That's unacceptable. Ongoing 15 per cent increases put in place by the previous Labor government have already priced many people out of public transport.

And what good is new infrastructure if no one can afford to use it?

We also can't keep deferring the bill to future generations of Queenslanders.

The Federal Government didn't use the latest Budget to make announcements on what it could deliver.

Instead it announced what it wanted the state to try to fund.

While it gave Wayne Swan a good Budget-night sweetener, the reality is that it won't deliver projects in his home state.

Queensland's top three transport infrastructure projects, sitting with Infrastructure Australia, are the Bruce Highway, Cross River Rail and Toowoomba Second Range Crossing.

Through its Budget, the Federal Government managed to get halfway for its share of the Bruce Highway and Cross River Rail, while Toowoomba Second Range Crossing didn't get a mention.

As important as these projects are, a responsible government needs to see through the smoke and mirrors and accept that signing up to desperate short-term announcements can lead to long-term pain.

Our efforts to secure these projects will continue by lobbying both the federal Coalition and Federal Government to get them underway.

We'll continue to aim for a genuine partnership that gets these crucial projects delivered, not an attempt to short-change Queenslanders.

Scott Emerson is the Minister for Transport and Main Roads in the Queensland Government.

[mufreight]

2 brake pipes achieve the same thing.

but not with distributed power and the recovery rate still remains slower than ECP and the application is still delayed the further towards the rear of the train giving bunching (run in) which is a major cause for drawgear failure. 
If the two brake pipes (the second pipe is a main reservor air pipe) system obviated the need for ECP then why are operators going to the expense of retrofitting ECP to their rolling stock.

[ozbob]

Interview on 612 ABC re Cross River Rail now ...

[somebody]

2 brake pipes achieve the same thing.

but not with distributed power and the recovery rate still remains slower than ECP and the application is still delayed the further towards the rear of the train giving bunching (run in) which is a major cause for drawgear failure. 
If the two brake pipes (the second pipe is a main reservor air pipe) system obviated the need for ECP then why are operators going to the expense of retrofitting ECP to their rolling stock.

To my knowledge, outside of QLD they aren't, at least not within Australia.

I agree that ECP has advantages above dual brake pipes, but cost $.

[ozbob]

Interview on 612 ABC re Cross River Rail now ...

Good interview with Dr Matthew Bourke GU.  He also the mentioned the fail re the gateway rail corridor and the fact that coal trucks will be running down Kessels Road soon ...    shock horror for some ...

Hopefully will be up on blog later.  He said there is a consensus amongst transport planners in Brisbane that CRR is essential and outlined why.