Cross River Rail Project

[Mr X]

Nahh I know what it is!

Train replacement strategy!
Simply extend the concept used when train sectors are closed for maintenance, across the network! No expensive duplications required and it already has success across the network*

So the Newman government will simply purchase another 500 buses and run them along the surface route near train lines. No idea about the freight, that can be fixed in Connecting SEQ 2117 (should be in record time so that you can see the next transit of venus across the sun while on board a new european metro style busway past parliament). Even better, these buses can be sold to a bus operator and rented back, thus they are FREE**.

I can imagine it now. Bus comes past KGSBS, picks up pax, then sits in traffic while it makes it's way "express" to Northgate and then "express" to Cabulcha via the Bruce Highway 

* See route 649 timetable
** subject to demand

Come on can do, where is my consultancy fee?

[somebody]

He will personally do 3 terms then hand over to someone else. No such thing a decade long leader anymore, they all know it (now). But don't expect him to be kicked out by his party. I'm sure LNP has been watching very hard whats happened in NSW and Feds. I think even Qld ALP knew dumping Anna in European style annual leader replacements or traditional Australia last ditch attemp to voters as per NSW and Vic over last 25 years would be a waste of time. Voters are not that dump.

Interesting comments.  Looks like QLD ALP did indeed get more first preferences than in NSW.  Must have had better preference flows in NSW.

I absolutely think that in NSW dumping Rees for Kennealy saved a number of seats.  The ALP had been shoving down the electorates' throat a transport policy that they didn't want, including asking passengers to change at Central for a Metro to reach their destination.  The people wanted their trains to run through to Town Hall and Wynyard or equivalent stations.  Kennealy dumped this policy and ramped up bus services.  The main trouble was that no one was listening any more.  Oh, and accepting David Campbell's resignation probably didn't help either.

It may not have resonated as well here to dump Bligh, but that shows the culture.

Be interesting to see if Newman can win in Ashgrove next time around - I expect a huge blow back to the ALP, just on principle.
(Sorry to be off topic).

[ozbob]

The Cleveland solution is so mediocre it will never be funded nor built.

http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=7523.0

==============



Media release 22 January 2012

SEQ: Cross River Rail bipartisan support is the way forward

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers calls for the Cross River Rail project to be implemented as soon as possible and all parties to commit to this project of national significance.

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"Cross River Rail has had years of detailed work up. Compare this  to the so called  'Cleveland Solution' thought bubble(1, 2), so rushed and mediocre that the published route forgot about Kurilpa bridge! The Cleveland solution is actually a non-solution, which will cost nearly as much as Cross River Rail and only give about a quarter of the capacity benefits that Cross River Rail will deliver for the entire rail network in south-east Queensland."

"It would be a disgrace and a tragedy for Queensland, and indirectly for Australia, if petty politics by Mayors, clearly out of touch with reality jeopardise the important project which is Cross River Rail.  If you recall they were once soundly behind it, until Mr Newman left their fold."

"Cross River Rail is an all inclusive cost, properly costed, evaluated and tested. Contrast to the very sloppy and hastily drawn up Cleveland non-solution thought bubble which at first critical examination fails dismally (2)."

"Competition for Infrastructure Australia funding will now be more intense considering  Melbourne, Sydney, Adelaide and Perth have major rail projects in train.  Any further delays with moving ahead with Cross River Rail could mean missing the train at Albert Street Station and gridlock for the next 50 years.  It is important that all political parties support Cross River Rail.  Not proceeding with Cross River Rail will cripple the economy of south-east Queensland as gridlock and transport failure impacts."

References:

1.   http://www.councilofmayorsseq.qld.gov.au/docs/Publications/COMSEQ-Public-Transport-in-SEQ_LOW-RES.pdf

2.   http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=7475.0

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[Golliwog]

From Twitter feed: On Tonights news.

7News Brisbane ‏@7NewsBrisbane

RT @NeilWarren7: Mayors outline 'Cleveland to Ferny Grove' rail option as alt to cross river rail. Rule out trams. @7NewsBrisbane 6pm

11:21 AM - 7 Jun 12 via TweetDeck

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/cleveland-solution-being-considered-as-alternative-to-cross-river-rail-project/story-e6freon6-1226387520908

Cleveland solution being considered as alternative to cross river rail project

    by: Sarah Vogler
    From: The Courier-Mail
    June 07, 2012 1:44PM

A LOWER cost alternative to the Cross River Rail project is being considered by the State Government.

The $2.5 billion Cleveland solution, revealed by The Courier-Mail in January, was developed by engineering consultants GHD for the Council of Mayors (South East Queensland).

It was immediately dismissed by the previous Labor State Government but new Transport Minister Scott Emerson confirmed it was being considered as part of an expert panel's inquiry into Cross River Rail.

The Cleveland Solution aims to relieve the strain on the Merivale Bridge, due to reach choke point by 2016, by diverting the Cleveland line.

The Cleveland line would instead run along a new rail line from Park Rd to Roma St via a tunnel to a new station at Woolloongabba and then a new bridge beside the Captain Cook. It would then run through a tunnel under Herschel St to a new platform beneath Roma St Station.

The solution also involves the use of light rail in a move that could free up trains for use elsewhere on the Citytrain network.

"I have asked the expert panel to look at both the Cross River Rail project and alternatives to that," Mr Emerson said.

"First off I want the expert panel to have a look at the Cross River Rail project but they will also be looking a the Cleveland solution to see if that stacks up as well.

"It is an alternative to the Cross River Rail and about a quarter of the cost."

Mr Emerson said about $40 million in State and Federal funds had been spent on the Cross River Rail project so far.

He accused the former State Government of producing "rubbery" figures around the cost of the project, estimating it would cost between $8 billion and $6.4 billion, with the expert panel aiming to establish the true cost of the underground rail plan.

The panel is due to report back to the minister this month.

"Some time later this month I will look at that report and then decide whether it is possible to do this project," Mr Emerson said.

"If it comes back that the numbers are out of reach for the State, we can't proceed with Cross River Rail."

He said the panel was also investigating whether or not the 2016 choke point date for the Merivale Bridge was accurate.

Council of Mayors chair Cr Graham Quirk said the body was yet to formally endorse the Cleveland solution but he welcomed the State's decision to consider it.

[ozbob]

The Cleveland solution is grossly undercosted.  No expert committee worth its salt would support it over Cross River Rail.  If they did, they are clearly not an expert committee as such.

[colinw]

Even if the so-called expert committee rubber stamps it, I do not see a snowball's chance in hell of this half baked "Cleveland Solution" getting IA funding.

Any genuine scoping study & preliminary investigation is going to come up with a raft of additional expenses, including grade separation of the numerous level crossings along the Cleveland & Ferny Grove line.

It beats me how these numptys can possibly confuse a half baked tunnel/bridge scheme linking a couple of branch lines with a through corridor joining the northern & southern main line corridors.

What next, the Doomben solution? (Doomben to Tennyson).

I suggest Quirk & the other mayors get back to collecting garbage, mowing the footpath, patching bitumen and all the other things I expect for my rates payment. Meddling in regional level transport policy is above their pay grade and not part of the mandate.

[Stillwater]

This seems fraught with danger.  The CRR project had the feds paying for the bulk of the project cost with a much lower cash injection from the state government.  What's the betting that Mr Emerson is working towards a so-called 'cheaper' Cleveland Solution, where the state puts in no money and requires all of the funds that otherwise would have gone to CRR being directed, instead, at the Cleveland Solution.  He will cry poor and say he has come up with a solution that achieves the same outcome at a cheaper cost and that is a fine example of the LNP acting in the best interest of Queensland taxpayers.  What he will end up doing is setting back construction of any cross-river rail project by several years.  Meanwhile, CRR has ticked all the boxes and is shovel ready.  Canberra, quite rightly, will poke a stick at this, dubious of the costs, and they would be right to do so.  Meanwhile Mr Emerson will pick a political fight, saying federal Labor is hampering progress on his cross river alternative plan and is interfering in what are state matters.  Just look at the Alpha mine row as a foretaste of what could develop over the CRR/Cleveland debate.

[colinw]

Its just perfect. The LNP can initiate another round of Joh Bjelke-Petersen style Canberra bashing, safe in the knowledge that it will make them popular in QLD. At the same time the backlash from the Feds will get them out of building anything while being able to lay the blame elsewhere.

Then when Abbott gets in, there will of course be no Federal funding for non-road projects, therefore the project will be quietly killed off.

For the LNP this course of action is "win, win", for us its "lose, lose". Heck, if I was an adviser to them and completely unscrupulous, pushing something like the "Cleveland Solution" it is exactly what I would do, safe in the knowledge that we would never need to actually fund it but could make considerable political mileage from it.

Yes, I am a touch cynical. 

[colinw]

Something very fishy is going on with the Courier-Mail's online feedback.

In January, when the original Cleveland Solution story broke in this article, I posted the following comment, which is still there to see:

Grumpy of Brisbane Posted at 5:05 PM January 15, 2012

No way!. The capacity problem on the Merivale bridge is not being caused by Cleveland trains anyway, as Cleveland only receives a modest 2 train per hour service. Take away Cleveland trains and the freight trains, Beenleigh Trains and Gold Coast trains will remain, as well as the trains to Browns Plains and Flagstone promised by the Connecting SEQ 2031 plan. I.e. we will have spent $2.5 billion (+ overruns) for a non-solution to the Beenleigh/Gold Coast line problem, and the Cross River Rail project will remain necessary. Not to mention that any kind of high frequency Metro like service on the Ferny Grove & Cleveland lines will need an entirely new fleet of trains (more expense), will need ALL level crossings from Ferny Grove to Cleveland replaced with bridges, and will need the Cleveland Line to be duplicated. The one good part of this proposal, which actually is a rehash of the 40 year old Wilbur Smith plan of the early '70s, is a bridge instead of an expensive Cross River Tunnel. But that plan linked into the Beenleigh Line, and provided additional capacity where actually needed, which this plan does not! Not impressed by this one, but good to see alternatives considered.

All well & good. Now, today the Courier-Mail has published this article.

And what do I find in the feedback?

Grumpy of Brisbane Posted at 2:34 PM Today

Hadn't this already been dismissed as a non-solution? The capacity problem on the Merivale bridge is not being caused by Cleveland trains anyway. Cleveland only has a modest 2 train per hour. Take away Cleveland trains and the Beenleigh/Gold Coast and freight trains will remain. The cost of $2.5 billion has been proven to be understated and it would cost more like $4 billion to do what they want. That $4 billion still won’t allow CAMCOS or future Flagstone/Beaudesert commuter trains which are IMPOSSIBLE withour CRR. Not to mention that any kind of high frequency Metro like service on the Ferny Grove & Cleveland lines will need an entirely new fleet of trains (more expense), will need ALL level crossings from Ferny Grove to Cleveland replaced with bridges, and will need the Cleveland Line to be duplicated. Even the 40 year old Smith plan of the early 70s proposed a second bridge instead of a tunnel. But the Smith plan linked into the Beenleigh line and provided additional capacity where actually needed, which this plan does not!

Except I have posted no such comment, hadn't even read today's article until 15 minutes ago.  But there it is, re-using some of my wording from January.  Weird.

Looks like someone posting with the same moniker is rehashing my old comments.

[Stillwater]

lol, or there are lots of grumpy people around when it comes to the Cleveland solution.

[#Metro]

The Cleveland solution is grossly undercosted.  No expert committee worth its salt would support it over Cross River Rail.  If they did, they are clearly not an expert committee as such.

OMG! Cleveland solution! Oh well! Let them analyse the crappola out of it. At the end of the day it is what it is - crap!

[HappyTrainGuy]

The solution also involves the use of light rail in a move that could free up trains for use elsewhere on the Citytrain network.

FFS.

[colinw]

The solution also involves the use of light rail in a move that could free up trains for use elsewhere on the Citytrain network.

FFS.

At the cost of having to build an even larger fleet of special purpose trains that will be captive to this one corridor.

I cannot believe this nonsense is being seriously considered again, or is this just a Courier-Mail brain-fart?

[Jonas Jade]

Is this really being trotted out again?

Where was that "Fairfield Solution" diagram 

[HappyTrainGuy]

The solution also involves the use of light rail in a move that could free up trains for use elsewhere on the Citytrain network.

FFS.

At the cost of having to build an even larger fleet of special purpose trains that will be captive to this one corridor.

I cannot believe this nonsense is being seriously considered again, or is this just a Courier-Mail brain-fart?

Not to mention more purpose built maintainence facilities and crews to maintain them.

[Mr X]

Is this really being trotted out again?

Where was that "Fairfield Solution" diagram 

Quick- someone send it to Robyn Ironside from the Courier Mail 

[somebody]

Cleveland solution as a track has its own issues. But why would you make it LR, QR trains are small enough and then dealling with a 2nd fleet of trains.

IF and I mean IF you are going to go down the Cleveland Solution path, at least make it HR and this goves option in future of connecting to Nth side and continuing up Trouts Rd etc. Suely keeping it HR would also mean cheaper to install as you don't need to modify anything else. HR can manage 3min headways and turn backs. So you get basically a Merriville duplication.

I believe the theory was making a sharp turn to cross the river.

[Gazza]

Cleveland solution as a track has its own issues. But why would you make it LR, QR trains are small enough

No they aren't. They want to do some crazy tight turns/grades at the Gabba, and when transitioning from the riverside to under Hershel street. No way you could do that with current QR stock so why even suggest it?

[colinw]

+1

Not to mention the Cleveland [non] Solution will kill off the Trouts Rd corridor by making the line it would have branched from separate from the rest of the system.

Plus it leaves the Gold Coast & Beenleigh lines on the inferior Merivale Bridge route (which was to be a secondary/freight route under the original Wilbur Smith plan).

[Stillwater]

And will all of that be fed into the costings for the Cleveland Solution?  It should worry people that the government is saying that the Cleveland Solution will cost half of the CRR price tag.  How do they know this, particularly as the Cleveland Solution has not be subjected to the same financial scrutiny as the CRR proposal?  It sounds as though a fix is under way to make the Cleveland Solution appear to fit a pre-determined price, that pre-determination not having any basis in fact.

[Golliwog]

Cleveland solution as a track has its own issues. But why would you make it LR, QR trains are small enough

No they aren't. They want to do some crazy tight turns/grades at the Gabba, and when transitioning from the riverside to under Hershel street. No way you could do that with current QR stock so why even suggest it?

Oh great, so for less than 1km of track, we need to tool up to maintain a 2nd fleet of trains, depo, cleaning, training, carry less per set, modify stations etc.

Exactly, perfectly well justified.

I seriously hope the experts involved in the audit aren't going to put forward the Cleveland solution, just because it's not 'Labors CRR'. The stated pricetag for the Cleveland Solution isn't believeable and is based on a fanciful concept design.

[Stillwater]

In the CRR business analysis, the benefits were costed and the costs were costed.  If, as the new Queensland Government says, the Cleveland Solution is half the cost of CRR, it is unlikely that all the benefits of CRR can be acheived for half the price.  Yet, that is the government line.  It is doubtful that the Cleveland Solution will buy even half the benefits of the CRR proposal.  It follows that the Cleveland Solution will buy less bangs for bucks on a pro-rata basis.

[BrizCommuter]

BrizCommuter has an awful feeling that the LNP are very seriously looking the Cleveland Solution. Too many coincidences in policy changes, speeches, and publications, and of course a lot of QLD government internet searches on the Cleveland Solution lately.

The 2016 Merivale Bridge capacity is likely to be be questioned, as the high fares and lack of service improvements have sufficiently killed patronage growth so that the max capacity (i.e. all trains overcrowded) will probably not be reached until 2020ish.

[Gazza]

lot of QLD government internet searches on the Cleveland Solution

Que?

[verbatim9]

If the Crr is knocked back? Might as well have the Feds divert the funds to SA's train electrification project.

[Golliwog]

My other concern is they'll just play the budget card and focus purely on the cost "Due to Labor's dastardly financial skills and their absolutely horrific $85B debt we can't afford CRR so we'll have to do the Cleveland Solution."

Though that may require admitting that Labor's CRR was better, which I can't see happening. Probably just throw more dirt at it and point out a few times how the price changed and was unreliable.

[curator49]

I have made my comments on The Cleveland Solution thread so will not repeat them here.

[Stillwater]

Where are the developers in this debate -- the ones that were looking at developing business hubs, retail precincts and accommodation blocks near the new CRR stations?  What do they think of the Cleveland Solution?

The industry bodies held special breakfasts and briefings for members so they could look to take advantage of CRR and, obviously, contribute financially to the above-ground facilities.

Why hasn't the media approached the Property Council for comment, or any of the other industry representative bodies?  Surely they would have a preference.  Could the same sort of support for CRR from industry be expected for the Cleveland Solution?  Would that affect the financial viability of one over the other.

I suppose that is a question for the 'experts'.

[BrizCommuter]

lot of QLD government internet searches on the Cleveland Solution

Que?

Stat Counter on BrizCommuter's blog shows readers IP address, ISP or company name (incl. government department), pages visited, and search keywords. Lots of government and QR searches on 15 minute off-peak about 4 weeks before Campbell's announcement. Now lots of searches from government departments on Cleveland solution and longitudinal seating.   

[Derwan]

From http://www.couriermail.com.au/questnews/south-east-queensland-rail-on-track-to-hit-capacity/story-fn8ygho7-1226389447905

South East Queensland rail on track to hit capacity

The desperate need to solve Brisbane's looming railway crisis could result in an all-out State and Federal Government funding war.

By 2016 the Merivale Bridge, which services trains running south of Brisbane, is expected to reach maximum capacity and strangle the rail network, with knock on affects to freight and commuter services, road infrastructure and bus networks.

Estimates given in a GHD report commissioned by the Council of Mayors (SEQ) suggest failure to invest in transport infrastructure is likely to cost around $3000 million per year in lost productivity.

The former Bligh Labor Government had a vision for Cross River Rail (CRR) due to be built by 2016, but the project and its $7.7 billion price tag were pushed back to 2020 due to a lack of funding.

On Friday, the Council of Mayors gave its backing to the GHD report, which proposes ditching CRR in favour of the 'Cleveland solution'  - a cheaper alternative at $2.5 billion.

Cleveland solution back on rail agenda

Brisbane Lord Mayor Graham Quirk, who chairs the council, conceded eventually CRR would still have to be built.
"There was a recognition among mayors that there just wasn't a spare $7 billion floating around in Federal Government coffers, or State, to deliver CRR and there was a need to do something.

"The benefit of the Cleveland solution is it will add about a 20 year life to the Merivale railway crossing.

"There may well be a chance to do the full CCR plan down the track.

"This is a stop-gap measure to give a practical outcome to a needed boost in capacity,'' he said.
Commuter advocacy group Rail Back on Track spokesman Robert Dow said Cleveland Solution would be a "disgrace and a tragedy for Queensland''.

"CRR has had years of detailed work up. Compare this to the so called 'Cleveland Solution' thought bubble so rushed and mediocre that the published route forgot about Kurilpa bridge.

"The Cleveland solution is actually a non-solution, which will cost nearly as much as Cross River Rail and only give about a quarter of the capacity benefits that Cross River Rail will deliver for the entire rail network in south-east Queensland," he said.

The Council of Mayors' move could have major impacts on a project that has already seen $40m worth of State and Federal Government money poured into it, if the state government supports it.
But a spokesperson for Scott Emerson said the State Minister for Transport's position had not changed.

"We will be waiting for feedback and report from the expert panel and that's due later this month,'' he said.
A spokesperson for Federal Minister of Infrastructure and Transport, Anthony Albanese, said the Infrastructure Australia (IA) was due to release its updated list of national priorities within the next fortnight and had viewed CRR favourably.

"The new government has every right to review the decisions made by the former government, but from the point of view of the Federal Government, if they are changing the scope of what was originally submitted to IA then they need to contact IA and say that, and the whole process will need to start again,'' he said.

"This is a stop-gap measure."

Says it all!  A huge expense to put off something that's needed anyway!

[Jonno]

Beautiful Bob. Beautiful!!!

"CRR has had years of detailed work up. Compare this to the so called 'Cleveland Solution' thought bubble so rushed and mediocre that the published route forgot about Kurilpa bridge.

[ozbob]

The Cross River Rail  'review' was due last evening ...

Stand by ...

[HappyTrainGuy]

[BrizCommuter]

...for Cleveland Solution!

[colinw]

Give them time to come up with a fake report if the real report suggests CRR lol

First rule of Government - never commission an inquiry that you do not already know the outcome from.

[Fares_Fair]

"... yes, Minister."

[ozbob]

This is just wild speculation.  The CRR review is already overdue.  Perhaps held so that the new Government can highlight the 'financial abyss' left behind.  Much of the financial abyss depends on how you account, but nevertheless ...

Perhaps the review has confirmed the years of previous work.  So review is being held, so that in the aftermath of the financial black hole, it can be said '  great project but we cannot afford it (despite bulk funding from IA), or anything else much for that matter'. 

Cleveland solution is idiotic and would never get funded at IA or private level IMHO.

So we will just slide further into a festering mess. 

Southern states will be delighted however, their rail projects will no doubt benefit considerably from paralysis in Queensland.

Queensland will soon be a state with net negative migration is my guess ...

[Stillwater]

Yes, the government will tell us the options are the Bridge on the River Kwai or the South Brisbane platforms and Merivale Bridge augmentation, nothing more.

[#Metro]

Let them find an engineering company that GUARANTEES ON THREAT OF LITIGATION that it will completely build the Cleveland Solution for a MAXIMUM of $3 billion dollars. Let them do it!

Better still, make the mayors all pay for it!

[Gazza]

Give them time to come up with a fake report if the real report suggests CRR lol

"We will have a policy on inner city rail capacity before the election."