Cross River Rail Project

[colinw]

With only 32 general traffic lanes across the Brisbane River, all of which are nearly at capacity during peak hour, the need to fix the fundamental flaws in our road network has become critical.

There's now 42 lanes.  How many more do we realistically need?  And still we only have 6 rail lines (and only 2 for Beenleigh, Cleveland & Gold Coast lines combined, plus whatever else they plan to hang of the Beenleigh line (Flagstone).

12 - Sir Leo Hielscher Bridges
6 - Story Bridge
4 - CLEM7
8 - Captain Cook Bridge
2 - Victoria Bridge
4 - Go Between Bridge
4 - William Jolly Bridge
2 - Walter Taylor Bridge

46 - you left out 4 - Jindalee Bridge (Centenary Highway / Western Freeway).

[#Metro]

What about Perth? Perth is comparable to Brisbane.

[achiruel]

Does the Mortlake ferry count? 

Only if we count the Moggill ferry for Brisbane.

[somebody]

I suppose Sydney does have approx 20 lanes in the vicinity of Parramatta.  The river isn't very wide upstream of the weir.

[Mr X]

 
New lanes across the brisbane river in 10 years (since 2002)
Road (cars): 14
Rail: 0
Busway: 0

Getting our priorities right eh  

[STB]

New lanes across the brisbane river in 10 years (since 2002)
Road (cars): 14
Rail: 0
Busway: 0

Getting our priorities right eh 

You aren't counting the Green Bridge?

[Mr X]

good point 

[SteelPan]

The North-West Rail announcement out of Sydney today has to be a positive for CRR - puts both Newman [and the Feds] under increased pressure to get something BIG and rail related for Brisbane underway!   

[Stillwater]

Can't afford $6.4 billion for a 'big ticket' rail project?  Do you have to cut the transport budget?  Here's something for less than half the cost – the Sunshine Coast Line duplication.

http://www.deedi.qld.gov.au/cg/resources/project/landsborough-nambour/landsborough-to-nambour-rail-report-summary.pdf

http://www.deedi.qld.gov.au/cg/resources/project/landsborough-nambour/landsborough-to-nambour-rail-report.pdf

http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/837324cc-564a-4740-8aa4-c79263858142/pdflandnambeisexecutivesummary.pdf

http://www.arup.com.au/clrs/report_stage3a/ExecSum.pdf

Are you a government that wants to get unemployment in Queensland down to 4%?  Landsborough-Nambour duplication will create more than 650 direct new jobs + spin-off jobs.

[somebody]

The North-West Rail announcement out of Sydney today has to be a positive for CRR - puts both Newman [and the Feds] under increased pressure to get something BIG and rail related for Brisbane underway!   

What announcement?

[Jonno]

Can’t afford $6.4 billion for a ‘big ticket’ rail project?  Do you have to cut the transport budget?  Here’s something for less than half the cost – the Sunshine Coast Line duplication.

http://www.deedi.qld.gov.au/cg/resources/project/landsborough-nambour/landsborough-to-nambour-rail-report-summary.pdf

http://www.deedi.qld.gov.au/cg/resources/project/landsborough-nambour/landsborough-to-nambour-rail-report.pdf

http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/837324cc-564a-4740-8aa4-c79263858142/pdflandnambeisexecutivesummary.pdf

http://www.arup.com.au/clrs/report_stage3a/ExecSum.pdf

Are you a government that wants to get unemployment in Queensland down to 4%?  Landsborough-Nambour duplication will create more than 650 direct new jobs + spin-off jobs.

Cut road expansion funding first and pay for both.

[somebody]

What about Perth? Perth is comparable to Brisbane.

Not really, a fair bit smaller

And less dense isn't it?  Both factors should favour Brisbane, but the actuality is that Brisbane performs worse.

[SteelPan]

The North-West Rail announcement out of Sydney today has to be a positive for CRR - puts both Newman [and the Feds] under increased pressure to get something BIG and rail related for Brisbane underway!   

What announcement?

http://youtu.be/SR6eAL0K1m8

http://youtu.be/aQhFua2JWLg

[somebody]

Alright, but that project has no federal involvement.

[Stillwater]

And if the feds say 'up yours' and withdraws its approved investment in Epping-Parramatta, does that go to pay off debt, or does it leave a few billion dollars swinging for investment elsewhere in 'ready to proceed' projects, such as CRR?

[somebody]

And if the feds say 'up yours' and withdraws its approved investment in Epping-Parramatta, does that go to pay off debt, or does it leave a few billion dollars swinging for investment elsewhere in 'ready to proceed' projects, such as CRR?

Well it isn't going to NSW debt!

[somebody]

And if the feds say 'up yours' and withdraws its approved investment in Epping-Parramatta, does that go to pay off debt, or does it leave a few billion dollars swinging for investment elsewhere in 'ready to proceed' projects, such as CRR?

The Fed money is there for the E-P railway, its up to NSW to take it or not for that purpose. If they choose not to then I assume the money stays with IA.

As the state only needs to add $500m to the kitty to build the link, it would be foolish to ignore this.

It may be foolish, and yet it is happening.

[somebody]

It may be foolish, and yet it is happening.

Yeah, agree.

But has Barry actually canned it or just sticking with his electrol promise to build the NWRL and with SWRL and other works under construction perhaps the resources both state and private would be pushed if another major rail project was started. Perhaps he might leave the other for a 2015 election commitment?

He hasn't canned it to my knowledge, just never said it would proceed.  Which kind of makes it hard to be canned, as it wasn't being proceeded with by the last government either.

[mufreight]

This thread is supposedly about Cross River Rail here in Queensland yet most of the recent posts are about rail projects in Sydney which have little if any relevance to the subject of this thread.
Might I suggest that there are some who should consider the relevance of their posts to the thread that they are postion them in and make there posts on these off thread subjects in the more appropriate threads that exist in other areas of the forum in this case in the NSW threads.

[SteelPan]

You have a point - but, I think the discussion is taking place within the context of govt commitment and funding to major urban rail projects - after all, when viewed within the context of the overarching needs to balance the short-term essential focus of longer-term budgetary considerations, against the evolving necessity of meeting community expectations and social obligation policies, particularly with regard to the economic and enviornmental absolutes, as as ever present expression, of both policy and community variables withing the evolving paradigm shift of tighting treasury restraint over constrained debt market expansion, hence these projects really do come into very tight association!

.....YES MINISTER!   

[ozbob]

The New York Times --> Cannibalize the Future

[ozbob]

From the Couriermail 21 April 2012 pages 40 -41

Upgrades critical for progress

[somebody]

Its an interesting article but M1 not used off-peak, 

2nd runway for Brisbane I think is not a No.1 priority and not for some years yet. Come to Dubai, two parrellel runways and landing one night a midnight we had to fly inland and do a U turn and come back. From my seat I could count 6 planes in this procession and see one taking off as we flew past the airport. Don't see Brisbane like this too often. If anything that small runway at Brisbane needs to be increased.

Anyway, how does the author propose to pay for all this?

Agree about the 2nd runway not being the top priority, but I don't think runway 14/32's use can be increased much.  Any landing on that runway results in a cross runway operation (go arounds must be expected).  It is a long taxi from the terminals and only has a strong enough pavement for a 737 (not sure about an A320).  It could be used for take offs in the 32 (NW) direction though.  Not sure if that increases capacity much as take offs generally happen between landings.

[Fares_Fair]

No. 5 Riverwalk ?
He's got to be kidding.

Has he never heard of the Sunshine Coast rail duplication and the freight impacts and advantages?

Is must be just Brisbane focussed, though Gold Coast gets a mention.
He needs to do more homework.

[somebody]

Only points 2, 6 & 10 carry much weight with me.

[colinw]

My take on these priorities:

1. Airport new runway. Absolutely NOT necessary yet, and should be done via private investment anyway.
2. CRR. Yes, but only if we get serious about fixing the rest of the Beenleigh line and the culture of rail service delivery. Otherwise a pointless concrete-fest.
3. Light rail for Gold Coast & Brisbane. Yes to Gold Coast, for Brisbane absolutely not at this time and definitely not on the busways as it would be a capacity downgrade if anything.
4. FI Cruise Terminal. Only with private funding, don't spend a cent of public money on it.
5. Riverwalk. Don't be bl**dy stupid.
6. Hospitals. Yes, but surely fixing the culture of QLD health is the first priority.
7. Regional centres ...  this is feel good "motherhood statement" waffle that doesn't actually mean anything.
8. Entertainment precincts ... private investment facilitated by appropriate town planning.
9. Veloways. Qualified yes - investment in bikeways is a good thing, as long as there is a strategy to integrate the network rather than the disjoint bikeway segments we have now. And no more bollocks non-bikeways like the V1 to Gold Coast please.
10. MBRL. Grudging yes, given that it has committed funding, but if its going to be half hourly why bother?

I give this guy about 2 or 3 out of 10.  The failure to mention the Sunshine Coast Line is a major fail, as is failure to mention any kind of freight rail capacity / separation from suburban traffic.

Enough of this infrastructure obsession. No point building much more while what we have under-performs so badly.

[Golliwog]

As I understand from the guest lecture last year for our Advanced Transport Systems class at UQ, the 2nd BNE runway is needed, not particularly soon though, and is already well into the planning process, and it is planned to be privately funded by the BAC. So all good there.

I have no idea how anyone could consider the Riverwalk to be in the 10 most needed infrastructure items in SEQ. I'd agree sort of with the light rail for BNE and GC, more GC than Brisbane, though if it's going to go into BNE then they should at least start finding routes for it so that they can reserve it for when it is actually needed/they have the money.

Cruise ship terminal I see as a decent idea, but again, while could be partially government funded, I thikn it should be significantly privately funded.

Can't argue with the hospitals one much at all really.

7,8,9 though are more town planning than infrastructure. Which BCC needs to step up on a bit. I'll be dissapointed if the Mitchelton centre plan (possibly not the proper name, but it's basically developing around Mitchelton station and Brookside to multi-story buildings) gets canned because a few locals are complaining. Yes consultation is important, but of course something like this is going to have negative feedback, who have been a very vocal minority (similar to those against GCLR).

[Jonno]

My take on these priorities (includeds copying thanks Colin):

1. Airport new runway. Should be done via private investment but only when they can show how 50% of trips are not by motor-vehicle and that HSR can not provide better service.  Definietely no more road $.
2. CRR. Yes, but only if we get serious about fixing the rest of the lines and implement 15 or 10 min off peak services
3. Light rail for Gold Coast & Brisbane. Yes to Gold Coast, Yes Brisbane but not on the busways.  Busway needs to become a Metro (light or heavy).
4. FI Cruise Terminal. Only with private funding, don't spend a cent of public money on it.
5. Riverwalk. Not a top 10 priority unless can show massive increase in cycling and walking.  I doubt it.
6. Hospitals. Yes, but make the existing one perform at international standards first
7. Regional centres ...  this is vital as it is the car oriented nature of our commercial centres that generate a lot of traffic. Don't limit it to Regional centres.
8. Entertainment precincts ... isnt this the same as 7.
9. Veloways. Total Yes.  Time to convert our road space to separated cycle ways and develope more Complete Street.  Buslanes as well (talking of those where are those on this list)
10. MBRL. Yes, but must be min 15 min service off-peak if not more?

Failure to mention the Sunshine Coast Line is a major fail as well as freight generally

[somebody]

HSR posts merged into HSR thread, here: http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3200.520

Indeed, Gazza.

[SteelPan]

Some thoughts/My 10:


1. Airport new runway.
Work WELL UNDERWAY, where do you think a lot of tunnel project earths been going!  All scheduled to proceed - private sector will be onboard - I think the GFC just put it back a few years.

2. CRR.
Will highly-likely happen, but as others have noted, other aspects of the network and train management systems need to be improved, for CRR to be worthwhile.

3. Light rail for Gold Coast & Brisbane.
Yes to Gold Coast. Busway needs to become a Metro (light or heavy).
YES, YES, YES, ENOUGH TALK, TALK, TALK

4. FI Cruise Terminal.
Only with private funding, don't spend a cent of public money on it.
MOSTLY YES, MUST include my previous suggestion of a Brisbane "PATH Train" type development, stepping into the 21stC, a train that would aid in the entire Port region becoming a professionally designed, industrial, commercial, tourist, environmental/green industry, residential region - all serviced by a rapid transit rail system!  Joint Port Corporation/BCC/State Govt Taskforce to lead.

5. Riverwalk.
Not a top 10 priority unless you can show massive increase in cycling and walking.  I doubt it.  YYAAWWWNNNN - over the next dozen years, as funding becomes available - much more important stuff.

6. Hospitals.
QLD Health own internal problems will present enough cost saving opportunities for a switched on leadership team for the next 5-10yrs.  The Taxpayer currently flushes enough $$$$ away on that terrible dept - NO more xtra dollars for them!

7. Regional centres.
A worthy long-term goal, to see this great nation developed as a nation, not an eastern coast hugging corridor - useless though until we have a visionary Fed Govt - neither the Rudd/Gillard years or indeed the previous Howard Govt paid much attn to regional Aust - start with the long talked of Inland Railway - I won't hold my breath!

8. Entertainment precincts.
Private sector/Local authority [BCC] matter!

9. Veloways. Total Yes. 
Start making adult cyclists pay an annual rego/tax and then they can enter the discussion!

10. MBRL.
Yes, but also needs a better train operator - see comments re "2".

[HappyTrainGuy]

Nothing wrong with the rail/bus operators for MBRL/CRR. Problem is with Translink in paying for frequent trains to turn up/getting frequent buses to feed the stations and the state government committing to funding proper rail infrastructure eg NGR and the new maintainence facility are pending on NCL-CAMCOS/MBRL/CRR.

Yawn, Fishermans Island isn't a tourist/residential hub so to say. There are no houses there. Its a industrial hub. Far better to establish a bus from Wynnumn. Yes there are cruise ships there but its not enough to establish a frequent train service there at all. If its such a major issue the cruise terminal should be funding for chartered buses to transfer passengers to/from the train station.

[Gazza]

Quick question SteelPan, but when you say PATH Train, are you refering to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Authority_Trans-Hudson

[SteelPan]

Yes, BUT, I use the word ONLY to give the concept a distinct "rail friendly" name, which many rail people would, to varying degrees, be familiar with.

[SteelPan]

Lots of regions were once without residential - didn't stop them from developing into major residential regions.  I am also not saying JUST residential - commercial, industry, green technologies - in fact, the issue really is, why develop such regions WITHOUT a rail link!  You tired?

[Gazza]

Yes, BUT, I use the word ONLY to give the concept a distinct "rail friendly" name, which many rail people would, to varing degrees, be familiar with.

I guess what I was wanting to know is, what makes your proposal like the real PATH system in NY/NJ?

Why not call it "Brisbanes RER" or "Brisbanes S Bahn"?
It's just a branch line proposal.... Doesn't need a name any different to the "----- rail link" format used in Qld (eg Springfield rail link.

Would be less confusing if you called it the Lytton-Port rail link" or something.

[SteelPan]

The only very general linkage, is the use of the word "Port" - I picked it simply as a "working name", it's got little bit more "vibe" to it, then always writing "the potential new rail link to the Port of Brisbane Region" that's all!

[Stillwater]

In the Budget in Reply statement to the federal Parliament tonight, the Coalition said it would abolish the carbon tax and peg back NBN spending and use part of the savings to fund CRR and other major infrastructure projects.

It is interesting that IA says CRR is ready to construct and the federal Coalition wants to fund it, yet the conservative party in power at the state level does not want to proceed.  It's about time the LNP revealed its planning process for the alternative CRR.

[Golliwog]

No, they said that it COULD fund things like CRR, no commitment that they actually would. From http://resources.news.com.au/files/2012/05/10/1226352/430679-aus-news-file-budget-reply-speech.pdf

Why put so much into the NBN when the same investment could more than duplicate the Pacific Highway, Sydney's M5 and the road between Hobart and Launceston; build Sydney's M4 East, the Melbourne Metro, and Brisbane's Cross City Rail; plus upgrade Perth Airport and still leave about $10 billion for faster broadband?

The NBN project is well worth doing and I wouldn't support scrapping it, or doing the Coalition's budget version of it.

[SurfRail]

Mentioning the NBN is a furphy anyway - it's expenditure across a decade or more which is expected to be recouped anyway.  It's depressing that he either doesn't realise that, or does and exploits people's ignorance of it.

[Golliwog]

Mentioning the NBN is a furphy anyway - it's expenditure across a decade or more which is expected to be recouped anyway.  It's depressing that he either doesn't realise that, or does and exploits people's ignorance of it.

A bit of both. This http://www.abc.net.au/technology/articles/2012/02/21/3435975.htm is an long but interesting read. Apparently the Coalitions main problem with the NBN is that they haven't got a cost benefit analysis. The problem with that (according to the article there) is that there are a lot of benefits that it gives that are hard if not impossible to put a $ value on.

I think there is definitely a lot of exploiting of peoples ignorance going on.