Cross River Rail Project

[#Metro]

To be fair the 'Cleveland Solution' was a stop gap measure to get past the 2016 congestion limit wasn't it?
Not a total alternative to CRR?

It doesn't matter - any project must have a decent BCR and NPV.
Cleveland solution is an involved project - lol, you'd have more chance of implementing the Fairfield Solution if you wanted a stop-gap!

[ozbob]

@TT  Tim Fischer mentioned Perth as a superb example of a railway operation, particularly narrow gauge.

He rated the rail in Paris/France (combination of all 4 modes) as the best global example ..

Footnote:  When Tim was asked to comment directly on the train services in Brisbane he declined " I don't won't to get into domestic politics .. "   LOLOL

[#Metro]

He rated the rail in Paris/France (combination of all 4 modes) as the best global example ..

Ugh! Paris!  
It seems planners and architects the world over, no matter what city they are in, no matter how different the circumstances are, are all programmed to turn every city, any city
into a copy of Paris. Even the articles with Clem Jones in the Courier Mail in 1969 when they were ripping up trams has a line in there that says "Paris is doing it" or something to
that effect.

Perth is  a much more salient example.
Particularly important too as it was a horrible system (like ours) before fixing it up!

I know I bang on about Toronto (and Vancouver), as well but both cities show what you can do when the basic core infrastructure is done properly and well.
And with the bare minimum too.
One thing that gets my goad here in QLD is the expansion of the system without first sorting out the fundamentals - single track sections, missing cross overs, grade separation
and crossings that would first allow decent services on the current infrastructure to be run well.

[#Metro]

SPEED and Frequency (Paris metro is so slow)

[ozbob]

Tim Fischer interview for those interested --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=7783.0

[Stillwater]

At some stage or other, the community will need to debate a cordon congestion tax for Brisbane to raise revenue for public transport, but it won't occur during this election campaign.  Alternatives can be the differential rate SurfRail spoke about.

His legal mind might be interested in how other jurisdictions cope with those who receive a 'gift' from government when their land is rezoned (thus increasing its value) or does something like putting a railway station beside your block of flats (making them highly desirable places to live).

http://www.legislation.act.gov.au/sl/1991-7/19910403-6208/pdf/1991-7.pdf

[#Metro]

At some stage or other, the community will need to debate a cordon congestion tax for Brisbane to raise revenue for public transport, but it won't occur during this election campaign.  Alternatives can be the differential rate SurfRail spoke about.

I don't think a cordon tax would work, even if it were politically possible, simply I don't think it would raise enough revenue to be worth the pain.
I don't understand what the obsession is with cordon tolling. There are many other types of road user charge that are non-cordon.
We are talking about systems here (assuming not running down the busway where the ROW is already aquired) that cost $200 million + PER KILOMETRE

You know how much tolling you need to be doing just to raise $200 million! or $5 billion? I would suggest it would be around $4-$5 bucks a pop!

[johnnigh]

His legal mind might be interested in how other jurisdictions cope with those who receive a 'gift' from government when their land is rezoned (thus increasing its value) or does something like putting a railway station beside your block of flats (making them highly desirable places to live).

Queensland is particularly skewed to the landowner, as there is an ability to sue for any rezoning that reduces land value, but not for us (the people) to tax the beneficiaries of rezoning. Could anyone clarify whether any action of govt that reduces the value of a real property can open the way for a compensation claim?

No wonder we became infamous for white shoes. And now the biggest of our current white-shoe wearers, Mr C. Palmer, is outraged that a politician should suggest he not be encouraged to buy up all the other politicians!

The more things change, the more they stay the same, as someone once said.

[ozbob]

Alternatives have to be realistic.  The "Cleveland Solution" is a political ploy, IMHO.  Heck, their plan forget about Kurilpa bridge ..

Shorter CRR tunnels, including the Gardens Point Bridge are possible options IMHO.  But again these have investigated already as part of the present design process and rejected at this time.  IA is happy with it.

Next step funding options.

[Cam]

Thanks TT. Now that's the way to get cars off the Ipswich Motorway!  

Meanwhile, the inbound express services from Ipswich are consistently waiting at Indooroopilly for 2 minutes, travelling at 25km/h approaching Taringa where they don't stop & only briefly reach 100km/h.  

[somebody]

Thanks TT. Now that's the way to get cars off the Ipswich Motorway!  

Meanwhile, the inbound express services from Ipswich are consistently waiting at Indooroopilly for 2 minutes, travelling at 25km/h approaching Taringa where they don't stop & only briefly reach 100km/h.  

That speed restriction should have had a birthday cake!  It's more than a year old.

[#Metro]

Again, NO ONE has said any of the alt to CRR is a 1:1 replacement of CRR just a more affordable project to deal with the now and near future. CRR is 30 year planning project, ie build it and its good for 30 years with little need to expand, duplicate and if the money cannot be found then something else has to be done to get us through until we can afford it.

The problem with this argument is that historically we had the chance to build CRR in 1970 Wilbur Smith Transportation Plan... had we built it then it would have been astronomically cheaper and there wouldn't be the Clem 7 tunnel in the way of a bridge structure.

Now that the city has developed more, more environmental regulation, more development, higher safety standards, high labour costs etc, the cost has escalated. What is to say it will be easier to fund in the future?

[#Metro]

I am becoming impatient, we have heard 'there will be a plan' blah blah

WHERE IS THE LNP'S ALTERNATIVE PLAN?

Time for the cat to come out of the bag!

[SurfRail]

I expect they don't have one - it will just be shaving down the existing one so it is less useful (maybe revert to the "Fairfield Solution"  by having the dives there as was originally planned).

[Stillwater]

It's a dead cat in the bag TT .... makes a dead cat bounce.  I would be wary of any party that does not have a transport policy.  By not having a transport policy it shows that it gives no value to this sector.

[Fares_Fair]

I'm out.

[ozbob]

I expect they don't have one - it will just be shaving down the existing one so it is less useful (maybe revert to the "Fairfield Solution"  by having the dives there as was originally planned).

Agree, they are probably having a few Engineer working unpaid but party supportive going through a series of options in their spare time and maybe also waiting on IA as I thought they were supposed to make annoucement by now on CRR?

IA has indicated that project is now ' ready to proceed ' (as reported at Brisbanetimes --> http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/state-election-2012/bigticket-rail-project-ready-to-proceed-20120229-1u3c0.html ) ,  final ranking in terms of all national 'ready to proceed' projects is yet to come. I expect when that is complete there will be a formal announcement.

One of the issues with shortening the tunnel is the increased impacts and property resumptions adjacent to the corridor as it will need to be widened.

[ozbob]

I am becoming impatient, we have heard 'there will be a plan' blah blah

WHERE IS THE LNP'S ALTERNATIVE PLAN?

Time for the cat to come out of the bag!

Elements are 'out' of the bag.  Extra platforms and signalling improvements (already underway incidentally).  Any signalling improvements it is a given that ATP will be rolled out over the entire network (early work underway as well).  So the only thing that is different is a couple of extra platforms.  That won't do much at all as the earlier analysis by RTT demonstrated.

CRR is an essential precursor to the North West Transit Corridor, which in turn opens up the Sunshine Coast line to regular full time expresses ('ExpressLink').

[Stillwater]

If the federal government wanted to help its Labor mates in Queensland, it would be best to announce CRR in the last week of the campaign -- make everyone feel good just before they filed into the voting booth.  It is an 'all Brisbane electorates' announcement.  Every voter gets a goldfish in a plastic bag.

It would also be good to announce that the moneypot, whatever it is, is conditional on the project as submitted to IA, and not a variant, being what's built.  That would give Campbell Newman a political headache.  If he announced a different version, or a collection of other transport ideas, Labor would point out that they would need to be submitted to IA for evaluation, which would take another five years.  That's five years of 'do nothing' that Brisbane simply does not have.

The LNP probably doesn't have a transport solution -- just a slogan: "We will built it faster, cheaper, and better."

We have seen a pattern developing whereby Labor promises free travel after 10 journeys, LNP says after nine.

Labor proposes elimination of a railway level crossing, LNP says it will make it three.  Labor says it will look to extending off-peak travel to 15 minute frequency, LNP goes marginally better, saying it will experiment with the idea on just one line over 2 years.

This should have been Campbell Newman's campaign slogan:

[SurfRail]

If the federal government wanted to help its Labor mates in Queensland, it would be best to announce CRR in the last week of the campaign -- make everyone feel good just before they filed into the voting booth.  It is an 'all Brisbane electorates' announcement.  Every voter gets a goldfish in a plastic bag.

It would also be good to announce that the moneypot, whatever it is, is conditional on the project as submitted to IA, and not a variant, being what's built.  That would give Campbell Newman a political headache.  If he announced a different version, or a collection of other transport ideas, Labor would point out that they would need to be submitted to IA for evaluation, which would take another five years.  That's five years of 'do nothing' that Brisbane simply does not have.

The LNP probably doesn't have a transport solution -- just a slogan: "We will built it faster, cheaper, and better."

We have seen a pattern developing whereby Labor promises free travel after 10 journeys, LNP says after nine.

Labor proposes elimination of a railway level crossing, LNP says it will make it three.  Labor says it will look to extending off-peak travel to 15 minute frequency, LNP goes marginally better, saying it will experiment with the idea on just one line over 2 years.

This should have been Campbell Newman's campaign slogan:

Funding for the Parramatta to Epping line did not save Kristina in NSW, I doubt a CRR funding announcement will save Anushka up here.  It should still happen, of course.

[ozbob]

If the federal government wanted to help its Labor mates in Queensland, it would be best to announce CRR in the last week of the campaign -- make everyone feel good just before they filed into the voting booth.  It is an 'all Brisbane electorates' announcement.  Every voter gets a goldfish in a plastic bag.

It would also be good to announce that the moneypot, whatever it is, is conditional on the project as submitted to IA, and not a variant, being what's built.  That would give Campbell Newman a political headache.  If he announced a different version, or a collection of other transport ideas, Labor would point out that they would need to be submitted to IA for evaluation, which would take another five years.  That's five years of 'do nothing' that Brisbane simply does not have.

The LNP probably doesn't have a transport solution -- just a slogan: "We will built it faster, cheaper, and better."

We have seen a pattern developing whereby Labor promises free travel after 10 journeys, LNP says after nine.

Labor proposes elimination of a railway level crossing, LNP says it will make it three.  Labor says it will look to extending off-peak travel to 15 minute frequency, LNP goes marginally better, saying it will experiment with the idea on just one line over 2 years.

This should have been Campbell Newman's campaign slogan:

As an opposition, the LNP have distinguished themselves in terms of sheer incompetence, which has in turn compounded the failures of government.   What worries me is there is no guarantee  or evidence they would be any better in government than the present mob.  The longer the policy vacuum continues the more traction is lost. Evidence is needed.


Election campaigns are just giant mea culpas, exposing what should already be in place ...

[ozbob]

If the federal government wanted to help its Labor mates in Queensland, it would be best to announce CRR in the last week of the campaign -- make everyone feel good just before they filed into the voting booth.  It is an 'all Brisbane electorates' announcement.  Every voter gets a goldfish in a plastic bag.

It would also be good to announce that the moneypot, whatever it is, is conditional on the project as submitted to IA, and not a variant, being what's built.  That would give Campbell Newman a political headache.  If he announced a different version, or a collection of other transport ideas, Labor would point out that they would need to be submitted to IA for evaluation, which would take another five years.  That's five years of 'do nothing' that Brisbane simply does not have.

The LNP probably doesn't have a transport solution -- just a slogan: "We will built it faster, cheaper, and better."

We have seen a pattern developing whereby Labor promises free travel after 10 journeys, LNP says after nine.

Labor proposes elimination of a railway level crossing, LNP says it will make it three.  Labor says it will look to extending off-peak travel to 15 minute frequency, LNP goes marginally better, saying it will experiment with the idea on just one line over 2 years.

This should have been Campbell Newman's campaign slogan:

Funding for the Parramatta to Epping line did not save Kristina in NSW, I doubt a CRR funding announcement will save Anushka up here.  It should still happen, of course.

Bit off topic,  but former Premier of NSW Carr as Foreign Minister just reminds me of a mad hatters tea party ...



A real vote of confidence  NOT ...

[Mr X]

Someone should run against these fools with some REAL policies and give them a run for their money.

I am sick to death of these backbench MPs in safe seats who do nothing for their communities but are guaranteed their positions for life as their constituents don't want to vote for another party.
De-facto MPs, career politicians. They have their yarn every election about "sticking up the community" etc. but remain non-existent and invisible the rest of the time.

Both parties are full of them. The LNP are just a de-facto opposition because no one better exists, and the Labor party have only been able to retain their government position because the people quite clearly have never really had a choice. It's either vote for the usual (Labor), unorganised squabble (Liberal/Nationals) or vote for the Greens who don't really understand the concept of "value for money".

Meanwhile the LNP are sitting on a crest of anti-Labor anger without the actual need to propose any policy. It's "oh we might do this" or "we'll look at doing that". NOTHING CONCRETE. EVER. "Oh look we'll do a trial of reasonable service on ONE line and IF we like the results after two years we MIGHT look at extending it to other lines or continuing it.". So many escape clauses that allow them to back away from their promises once they form government.

[ozbob]

Cross River Rail is a real opportunity for all sides of politics to demonstrate they actually 'get it'.

Interesting to reflect that throughout the development and work up Cross River Rail has been supported by all levels of Government, until Mr Newman quit as Brisbane Lord Mayor and started his campaign to become Queensland Premier.  Surprising in view of Mr Newman's track record on infrastructure ..

[somebody]

The way I remember it, the opposition didn't support it at the last election.  Not that you said they did, of course.

[mufreight]

To be fair the 'Cleveland Solution' was a stop gap measure to get past the 2016 congestion limit wasn't it?
Not a total alternative to CRR?

The so called Cleveland solution in total to enable it to work would cost in between of two thirds and four fifth of the cost of the CRR to achieve a stop gap that would only provide less than one third of the benefit of CRR, it could in fact prove to be as costly as a basic version of CRR rather than the gold plated rolls royce version.
To waste that amount of money and still be in the position that by the governments own forcast figures CRR will need to be built within 10 years anyway at the latest is STUPID and would represent another financial disaster that this state can ill afford.

[SurfRail]

The so called Cleveland solution in total to enable it to work would cost in between of two thirds and four fifth of the cost of the CRR to achieve a stop gap that would only provide less than one third of the benefit of CRR, it could in fact prove to be as costly as a basic version of CRR rather than the gold plated rolls royce version.
To waste that amount of money and still be in the position that by the governments own forcast figures CRR will need to be built within 10 years anyway at the latest is STUPID and would represent another financial disaster that this state can ill afford.

Quite agree.

[newbris]

[you.tube]<Fast train>[/you.tube]

SPEED and Frequency (Paris metro is so slow)

Yes but to be fair the Paris metro actually stops and lets people on

[Gazza]

[you.tube]<Fast train>[/you.tube]

SPEED and Frequency (Paris metro is so slow)

Yes but to be fair the Paris metro actually stops and lets people on

And its the wrong comparison? The RER/Translien is the comparable equivalent to Transperth trains.

Average interstation is 2.5 km on RER A
RER B is 1.7 km
RER C is 2.1 km
RER D is 3.3 km
RER E is 2.6 km

Joondalup line is 3km interstation

Mandurah is about 7km station to station, but the long run to Mandurah pushes the average up. To Rockingham (Bulk of patronage is from there inwards) is 5.3km station to station.

Looking at map, you'll note too that newer extensions of the RER have gone for spacings above the average.



A legacy Perth line like the Midland line is 1.06km interstation. To Freo is 1.1km.

So when doing these comparisons, it needs to be like for like. Eg if comparing Toronto with Perth, you'd compare with the GO/VIA lines, not the TTC subway.

[BrizCommuter]

[you.tube]<Fast train>[/you.tube]

SPEED and Frequency (Paris metro is so slow)

Yes but to be fair the Paris metro actually stops and lets people on

And its the wrong comparison? The RER/Translien is the comparable equivalent to Transperth trains.

The Paris RER is one of the worlds highest capacity, and most influential public transport systems. Hugely successful, in fact so successful it can be extremely overcrowded at times. Many other cities have followed Paris (and Tokyo's) path in linking existing suburban rail lines via underground tunnels.

[Gazza]

Hopefully by 2020, we will too...Once Trouts Rd is done we'll have a great set up actually, but It will be the GC line that has the raw deal, with a good allignment south of Beenleigh, but a bad one north that brings it down.

[BrizCommuter]

The Paris RER is one of the worlds highest capacity, and most influential public transport systems. Hugely successful, in fact so successful it can be extremely overcrowded at times. Many other cities have followed Paris (and Tokyo's) path in linking existing suburban rail lines via underground tunnels.

Probably not the best way to describe how good it is

Cityrail is over crowded on most lines for about 2hr each peak as well and could also be rated as extremely popular otherwise it wouldn't be pushing the upper end of capacity on all major trunk routes into the city for over 20 years.

Cityrail is not comparable to Paris RER. Paris RER A manages up to 30tph in the am peak (with double deckers), compared to Cityrail's 20tph. That's 50% more frequency per track!

[somebody]

Cityrail is not comparable to Paris RER. Paris RER A manages up to 30tph in the am peak (with double deckers), compared to Cityrail's 20tph. That's 50% more frequency per track!

Not comparable in terms of achievement but I thought they were quite comparable in terms of what they are asked to do.

[#Metro]

Agree, its not always easy or even fair to put any of Australia's commuter operators up against the European's the cricumstances are just so different. From Wiki

Disagree. Sydney and Melbourne are directly comparable with places like Toronto and Vancouver. I still can't believe that 20 min service, trams stopping everywhere and running in Class C and Sydney trying to get 5 million people to move around by car is even remotely acceptable on any standard. No wonder they have problems!

At least with Brisbane we have second chance draw. Same with Perth and Adelaide.

I think it is interesting that the urban context should somehow determine "how good" a rail service should be. While I will concede that the urban context should determine the type and frequency of service, in both Sydney and Melbourne, top class metro should be the standard. Indeed, both Sydney and Melbourne fail (Sydney more so than Melbourne) with the ticketing and integration.

I paid $21 to get to Manly today, $21! It was a my multi ripoff ticket. If you want integration you get penalised -
this works against spontaneity. In Brisbane that might get me to Gympie North!

[ozbob]

Campbell Newman was interviewed on 612 ABC Brisbane this morning, Mornings with Steve Austin.

Should be up on the blog later today.

Mr Newman said he thinks that top infrastructure projects in Queensland are Bruce Highway, followed by Toowoomba Range (road) crossing.

When questioned on CRR he said that would be presenting detail of an alternative later in the campaign.  From his comments the alternative appears to be just an attempt to try to get some extra capacity on Merivale bridge.   Looks like it will be the ' platforms and signals ' solution.

Not a good transport future at all.  South east Queensland will grind to a road and rail traffic gridlock.

[somebody]

Campbell Newman was interviewed on 612 ABC Brisbane this morning, Mornings with Steve Austin.

Should be up on the blog later today.

Mr Newman said he thinks that top infrastructure projects in Queensland are Bruce Highway, followed by Toowoomba Range (road) crossing.

When questioned on CRR he said that would be presenting detail of an alternative later in the campaign.  From his comments the alternative appears to be just an attempt to try to get some extra capacity on Merivale bridge.   Looks like it will be the ' platforms and signals ' solution.

Not a good transport future at all.  South east Queensland will grind to a road and rail traffic gridlock.

Yeah, I think he still wants to go back to South Brisbane termination.

[Jonno]

This is why the LNP will never get my vote. Campbell is a road lover and see public transport as a community service for the elderly, disadvantaged and undesirables. 

[ozbob]

Interview is now on the Mornings with Steve Austin blog at 612 ABC Brisbane

Prospective member for Ashgrove and Premier of Queensland Campbell Newman came into the 612 ABC Brisbane Studios this morning.

Hear what he had to say.

--> here!

[ozbob]

Campbell Newman was interviewed on 612 ABC Brisbane this morning, Mornings with Steve Austin.

Should be up on the blog later today.

Mr Newman said he thinks that top infrastructure projects in Queensland are Bruce Highway, followed by Toowoomba Range (road) crossing.

When questioned on CRR he said that would be presenting detail of an alternative later in the campaign.  From his comments the alternative appears to be just an attempt to try to get some extra capacity on Merivale bridge.   Looks like it will be the ' platforms and signals ' solution.

Not a good transport future at all.  South east Queensland will grind to a road and rail traffic gridlock.

Interview is now on the Mornings with Steve Austin blog at 612 ABC Brisbane

Prospective member for Ashgrove and Premier of Queensland Campbell Newman came into the 612 ABC Brisbane Studios this morning.

Hear what he had to say.

--> here!

[ozbob]

Newman and the gaggle are on a bus heading to Toowoomba. 

He tweeted that the ' Can Do On Track ‏ @CD_Track

Traffic congestion on toowoomba range - that's one reason we need a second crossing !'