Cross River Rail Project

[Fares_Fair]

Cross River Rail is the BIGGEST, GLOSSIEST, POSSIBLY MOST EXPENSIVE IN THE RAIL CATEGORY, PLANNING BROCHURE ever perpetrated against the people of Queensland !

It's a shame that massive natural disasters, coupled with equally massive man-made financial disasters, has put the state in the position it finds itself in today.

Like many of the state government plans that have NIL funding available, this must rank as one of the biggest mirages in Qld history.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[SurfRail]

Cross River Rail is the BIGGEST, GLOSSIEST, POSSIBLY MOST EXPENSIVE IN THE RAIL CATEGORY, PLANNING BROCHURE ever perpetrated against the people of Queensland !

It's a shame that massive natural disasters, coupled with equally massive man-made financial disasters, has put the state in the position it finds itself in today.

Like many of the state government plans that have NIL funding available, this must rank as one of the biggest cons in Qld history.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

Unfortunately, it is absolutely necessary - just like the NCL upgrades.

[ozbob]

Cross River Rail is the BIGGEST, GLOSSIEST, POSSIBLY MOST EXPENSIVE IN THE RAIL CATEGORY, PLANNING BROCHURE ever perpetrated against the people of Queensland !

It's a shame that massive natural disasters, coupled with equally massive man-made financial disasters, has put the state in the position it finds itself in today.

Like many of the state government plans that have NIL funding available, this must rank as one of the biggest cons in Qld history.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

Unfortunately, it is absolutely necessary - just like the NCL upgrades.

+1

[Fares_Fair]

Cross River Rail is the BIGGEST, GLOSSIEST, POSSIBLY MOST EXPENSIVE IN THE RAIL CATEGORY, PLANNING BROCHURE ever perpetrated against the people of Queensland !

It's a shame that massive natural disasters, coupled with equally massive man-made financial disasters, has put the state in the position it finds itself in today.

Like many of the state government plans that have NIL funding available, this must rank as one of the biggest cons in Qld history.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

Unfortunately, it is absolutely necessary - just like the NCL upgrades.

It is.
I agree with you on both counts SR !

[Mr X]

Ohh is there another glossy brochure out?  


Just plain sad that we can't even get proper infrastructure going because we spent all the money on cr%p. We're wasting 50% of this mining boom on "mines to minds" education grants to the sum of $4000 a student or so. Sorry, but there is such a thing as HECS! Interest free (only increases with CPI) life long loan! If I was just graduating grade 12, I wouldn't want $4K from the government (not that I am going to get it anyway, I am too old now). Put that money towards CRR instead  

Labor need to stop throwing money at noisy minorities/middle class whingers and start putting it where it belongs.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Look in your desks everyone. You all get IPADDDSSSSSS. You get an iPad, and you get an Ipad, so do you and you. Go our government.

[Fares_Fair]

Whatever happened to just kissing babies ?

[ozbob]

Whatever happened to just kissing babies ?

[ozbob]

Look in your desks everyone. You all get IPADDDSSSSSS. You get an iPad, and you get an Ipad, so do you and you. Go our government.

Give 'em cake and slide rules ... 

[Fares_Fair]

 

[Mr X]

Oh yes, don't get me started on the iPad and Anna Bligh's "promise".
I own one. Educational? Not really. I bought it for "education" and aside from apps where you do 1+2=3 or view a solar system,  and using it for viewing and reading information, such as powerpoints, the internet or ebooks, it is otherwise completely useless as an educational device.

I tried taking university notes on it. Tried around 5 apps, even used a keyboard which I bought. Horrendous experience, laptop is far easier to use. Or even (shock horror), pen and pad!

When I was in school (primary '98-'04, grade 7 in 2004 which is what Bligh is targeting) we didn't even have computers in most classrooms, and the ones that did (about 1 per building) were only used for basic maths games.

Did I mention they will probably be redundant/smashed up/too slow in 2 years?

Why don't we stop funding the real waste (computers for every child, glossy papers, iPads blah blah) and put it into something that will last for the long term? Oh wait, that doesn't win votes or get a good shot for the news  

[Mr X]

Give 'em cake and slide rules ...  

abacus?

I hope those iPads come with free lollipops!

[#Metro]

Monorail!

[Stillwater]

abacus?  nah, let them use sine and cosine tables.  Would anyone under 20 who googles their homework know the Dewey decimal classifcation?

[somebody]

abacus?  nah, let them use sine and cosine tables.  Would anyone under 20 who googles their homework know the Dewey decimal classifcation?

Log tables for multiplication!  I'm still young enough to not have had to do that.

[Arnz]

Monorail!

Cross river maglev busway! 

[Gazza]

^I've thought that the money for both iPads and Mines to Mines would be better spent just on more teaching staff/paying them a bit better.

[HappyTrainGuy]

^I've thought that the money for both iPads and Mines to Mines would be better spent just on more teaching staff/paying them a bit better.

[Fares_Fair]

"Now students, prepare to start your exam ..."
*beep *beep (low battery warning)  



Perhaps these will only be given out if the Qld government is in surplus, can someone telephone the Federal Government's head office.
We need to know where to send the invoice.

[Mr X]

Monorail!

Cross river maglev busway! 

FAIRFIELD SOLUTION
BRIZFERRY
MAGLEV SINGLE CARRIAGES TO CABULCHA
ROCKET BUSES

[SteelPan]

Whilst I believe QLD NEEDS a change in political leadership, how long's it been?  Newman has greatly disappointed me regards CRR.  What he fails to grasp, is that CRR is not about just delivering a new CBD city rail corridor, it is really about facilitating greater SE Qld rail growth in both new corridors and more frequent services, the fact it runs through the CBD is a bonus.   Newman, without CRR the existing rail infrastructure will steadily grind to a hault!

The possible Metro/subway is a great NEW concept, put forward by both sides of politics, it can be built from scratch, to link in with existing rail/PT infrastructure at key points.  But without CRR, it's all in doubt!

[SurfRail]

Until the budget returns to surplus. 

Frankly, that is a bogus limitation.  The State should be borrowing to build this, because it will over time pay for itself, and scrapping other less essential projects which will not pay for themselves.

Surfrail, your assumption is that the state has the ability to borrow the money and considering the state is pushing its credit rating and had to sell assets recently to prop up its debt service capacity, your assumption is most likely wrong. The state will I assume borrow, but will not do so until it balances the budget and then has funds to afford the interest. Currently if it borrowed the money, then next year it needs to borrow to pay the interest. ie using one credit card to pay another, smart? no!

Um, no.

Queensland still has a credit rating that is enviable to most other sovereign states.  The only reason any organisation has a AAA credit rating is because they have virtually no borrowings, so it is functionally irrelevant to have one to start with.  It's like having a ridiculously low hospital premium because you have never needed coverage - when you do need it, then that gets taken into account.

If the asset will pay for itself over time, then the borrowing (including the servicing of debt and interest payments) is entirely justified.  The alternative is that Brisbane and SEQ experience massive productivity losses and everybody loses out.  It's impossible to quarantine the accounting solely to the money spent on this project because of how pervasive it is across the regional (and indeed the State's) economy.

[ozbob]

You are overlooking some fairly basic premises.  Funding for Cross River Rail is going to be partly supported by commercial activities associated with value capture.

Qld TMR is fast appreciating how commercial value capture works through the Gold Coast Rapid Transit.  I expect that the extensions to that system will proceed a lot sooner than many expect because of the funds that will be achieved. Likewise with CRR.  Lets wait and see the CRR business case.  There might be some surprises.

Lets just reflect on this for a moment as well.  MTR Hong Kong makes a mozta.  From running trains?  No,  from the commercial activities associated with the railway, commercial shops, accommodation, tods and so forth.

Look at King George Square Bus station?  An empty shell.  Time that was used as a commercial space.

Cross River Rail is achievable in today's fiscal environment.  To not proceed now with Cross River Rail will actually be extremely costly and economically stifling in the longer term.

Time we really got smart ...

[SteelPan]

KGS bus station came onstream at a really bad time for (small) business people to pay the rents etc the govt would want, for setting-up coffee shops/newsagents stand/flower sellers etc, the type of stuff that often associates with PT stops - ie, the GFC (v1 & 2).  I mean seriously, how much rent would the govt want per sqm down there? - not cheap I bet!  

I do see some merit in Newman's slow support for CRR given, to be honest, at $8b, it just AIN'T gonna happen.  Mind you, ALOT of QLD public transport infrastructure does always appear very highly priced.  I just wish both sides of the political divide had publicly said this IS what we want - what we end up with, is another subject!

Finally, IF the LNP can put forward an truly viable alternate to CRR and it's only around 1/2 the price - it deserves serious consideration!

Over to you Campbell......

[ozbob]

Whilst I believe QLD NEEDS a change in political leadership, how long's it been?  Newman has greatly disappointed me regards CRR.  What he fails to grasp, is that CRR is not about just delivering a new CBD city rail corridor, it is really about facilitating greater SE Qld rail growth in both new corridors and more frequent services, the fact it runs through the CBD is a bonus.   Newman, without CRR the existing rail infrastructure will steadily grind to a hault!

The possible Metro/subway is a great NEW concept, put forward by both sides of politics, it can be built from scratch, to link in with existing rail/PT infrastructure at key points.  But without CRR, it's all in doubt!

Agree with your comments re CRR.  True metro/subway will come eventually. 

[ozbob]

KGS bus station came onstream at a really bad time for (small) business people to pay the rents etc the govt would want, for setting-up coffee shops/newsagents stand/flower sellers etc, the type of stuff that often associates with PT stops - ie, the GFC (v1 & 2).  I mean seriously, how much rent would the govt want per sqm down there? - not cheap I bet! 

Nothing to do with it, it was legal issues -  council state ...   Soon as this nonsense is resolved the better.

Other places manage to do commercialisation of transport hubs very well, but not in the dumb state ..

[ozbob]

Lets wait for the business case, might be some surprises ...

The longer it is deferred the worse it becomes (and more expensive).  Traffic gridlock in Brisbane today, and it is a Saturday ...  trains still plodding along, buses every hour if you are lucky ..

[SteelPan]

KGS bus station came onstream at a really bad time for (small) business people to pay the rents etc the govt would want, for setting-up coffee shops/newsagents stand/flower sellers etc, the type of stuff that often associates with PT stops - ie, the GFC (v1 & 2).  I mean seriously, how much rent would the govt want per sqm down there? - not cheap I bet! 

Nothing to do with it, it was legal issues -  council state ...   Soon as this nonsense is resolved the better.

Other places manage to do commercialisation of transport hubs very well, but not in the dumb state ..

Yes, I have previously heard about legal issues, thank you for reminding me - another insight into how "well"    things a run here in Qld.

That said, good luck finding a small business person, in the current economic climate, prepared to commit to a lease for the dollars they'd want 

[Stillwater]

In a Smart State that encourages small business, surely a rental package could be devised for start-up small businesses -- low rent at the outset, rising as business grows.  Low rent too ludicrous?  Some rent is better than none.  There is a government department that deals with small business is there not?  Why isn't it involved.  Or are we to assume that the disfunctional government model at a federal level has been replicated at a state level?

[somebody]

Completely disagree on abiilty to fund CRR now, but could be possible later this decade if the govt spending could be pulled back sooner rather than later. Brisbane will not grind to a stop in mean time.

It's a matter of priorities.  If they think it's important enough, they'll find the money.

[Fares_Fair]

Um, no.

Queensland still has a credit rating that is enviable to most other sovereign states.  The only reason any organisation has a AAA credit rating is because they have virtually no borrowings, so it is functionally irrelevant to have one to start with.  It's like having a ridiculously low hospital premium because you have never needed coverage - when you do need it, then that gets taken into account.

If the asset will pay for itself over time, then the borrowing (including the servicing of debt and interest payments) is entirely justified.  The alternative is that Brisbane and SEQ experience massive productivity losses and everybody loses out.  It's impossible to quarantine the accounting solely to the money spent on this project because of how pervasive it is across the regional (and indeed the State's) economy.

Interesting spin on it so lets throw some facts in

- 2009, credit rating reduced by S&P to AA+ due to deficit levels hitting $1.5Bpa, so using one credit card to pay another
- To try save the credit rating and interest rates applies, govt had asset sales to reduce debt from $70B to $52B in 2009/2010
Thats $13,000 per man woman and child
- 2011/12 forecast budget defiicit is expected to rise to ~$2B due to natural disastors
- Forecast Govt debt is expected to hit $84B by 2014/2015

Taxation in Qld rose from $1300 in 2002 to $2200 in 2007, Qld is no longer the lowest taxing state to 3rd last behind other minerals boom state WA

Qld's abilty to balance the budget by 2014/15 is entirely dependent on the minerals boom, should a 2nd GFC occur the state revenues will again reduce and the state has less capacity to spend its way through and will be almost entirely dependent on Fed govt for support. Also there is massive investment in other far cheaper and previously almost untouched mineral countries such as Mongolia which will be competing with Qld over the longer term for coal. The higher coal prices, higher wages and ultimately govt income could be under pressure. Meanwhile the manufacturing industry will most likely continue to regress.

Basically this is the boom times when the busget should be in surplus and banking money and we are p%ssing this wealth upagainst the wall in interest and debt and should the boom times collapse we have nothing and the credit rating could quickly turn to that of 3rd world. In comparison Greece owes $28k per person. Qld is half that, but then we have Fed debt to add to this. Paul Keating tried the "lets allow growth to balance the budget" and failed.

Qld is currently spending the cost of the CRR every 18mths in interest payments. Balance the books, pay down the debt and you get your CRR.

You cannot borrow for the CRR based on the project being able to pay for itself on current fares. Citytrain currently looses over 70% of operating cost, how is this going to change? Yes there are benefits to the communty but where the total new of off-set cash inflows to the state govt to the tune of $500mpa (the number required to cover borrowings)?

@Steelpan, reading the comments and PR by Newman, I do not believe Can Do disagrees with your comment. He has come out pro CRR, but he has simple said he cannot see how it can be paid for especially if Feds fail to fund the current 80% funding request. I'm the same, great project, but how can it be funded with Qld being turned into another Tas/SA of late 1980's that 15 years to turn around.

regards
Shane

I'm not sure where the 80% request figure comes from, whilst I do not doubt it - it does seem high.
It is with respect, irrelevant given the State position at this time.

No money is available for CRR, from the Queensland Government, until the budget is in surplus, and this is not due until 2014/15 as you state.

Even this surplus is very small, $1.8B and this was ridiculed in a Courier-Mail article as sleight of hand and trickery (see 3. below), the reason; it had been created by deferring capital works projects and other known treasury 'tactics', these capital works projects need to happen, so the surplus will be ephemeral.
The actual surplus after removing these capital works projects and treasury tactics, is a mere $26 million. (see 2. below).

Does that $26 milion figure sound familiar?
If it does, that is because it is how much money will be saved by the 12 month deferral of the Sunshine Coast's CoastConnect bus project.
Astonishing really!

But what is CoastConnect?
CoastConnect is a proposed 23km quality transport corridor between Caloundra and Maroochydore.
It consists of bus lanes, high occupancy vehicle lanes, cycle lanes and bus stop and station upgrades.

1.) 13 January, 2012 http://www.news.com.au/business/breaking-news/qld-budget-to-return-to-surplus-early/story-e6frfkur-1226243377852 In this story surplus was $60 million.

2.) 17 January, 2012 http://afr.com/p/national/qld_labor_surplus_cut_after_oversight_HRG6tUGFxw3uiIPyvwSKKJ  In this story surplus corrected from $60 million down to just $26 million.

3.) 23 January, 2012 http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/opinion/surplus-is-sleight-of-hand/story-e6frerdf-1226250754770 In this story it is described as sleight of hand and trickery.

Sad, but true.


Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[SurfRail]

Try not building and see how the State's economy and our ability to do anything else for decades goes.  We are very possibly about to find out.

[ozbob]

Try not building and see how the State's economy and our ability to do anything else for decades goes.  We are very possibly about to find out.

Exactly. Cross River Rail has around 5 years of exhaustive developmental work up.

Contrast this to the Regional Rail Link in Victoria.  'Drawn up on the back of beer coaster over a weekend'.  $3Billion dollars from IA, no worries.

Platforms at South Brisbane or where ever are just another floppy feeble political con job.  Signalling improvements, already underway as is ATP. 

Part of the problem of poor outcomes in Queensland is that the opposition has been devastatingly weak.  No real pressure on Government, Government has been allowed to achieve mediocrity virtually unchallenged.  Do you think the LNP will be any more effective than labor?  It is hard to believe they will based on their dismal records, both opposition and government.

The tragedy is there is no real alternative to the political status quo, blue or red.

[somebody]

There will also be more peak loaded trains entering the city and I'm assuming these at least are profitable,

That is a very bold assumption.  Defining the parameters, if you mean having rolling stock in the fleet and operational tracks but the peak hour trains do not actually pay for these, then in that sense the peak hour train is doubtless profitable.  But the fleet and infrastructure are mandated by peak so must pay for it on any reasonable economic analysis.

[mufreight]

Copied this accross from the Newman Solution thread, if it puts a few noses out of joint too bad but time to face reality, there is no longer time with rail infrastructure to foar or dream and proposals can no longer be considered in isolation.

Quote from: rtt_rules on Today at 01:41:16 AM

The reason I went through the pax numbers was to see how many people actually might benefit from this proposal and the fact is you'd be hard up by my estimates to fill two 6 car sets in AM peak and 1 in PM peak. But if you did it and provided more seats maybe more people would get out of a car and this would boost numbers more? You might also get some people from Sth and SE who are marginal RS/Sth Brisbane to go Sth Brisbane. So lets say 4 x 6 car sets worth, assume 2 from each line, first pair arriving around 7:45-8:15 and 2nd pair 8:15 to 8:45.

First pair you have option to send back to say Yerrongpilly or maybe Manly if they get to Sth Bris by at least 8am, 2nd pair no point and sending them on just causes problems. So why not just extend the viaduct from Sth Brisbane end of Plat another 300m and hold a two shunt neck? You would need it anyway as turning trains around on PL3 would take too long. Either that of build PL4 on the SG now DG (It can fit, only just though as SG line spacing is fairly wide). Maye also help if the SG line to Sth Bank was DG'ed and sparked to enable passing of NG trains.

But reality check for all I doubt anyone including LNP suggests this is an alt to CRR, its just a small stop gap that enables about 1000people per hour extra at best from the Sth and SE by rail.  


When are you wackers going to face reality.
Sit down and read through the garbage that you have posted on the subject, then add up the costs of the infrastructure that you are proposing, not just the selective band aid bits in isolation but the additional infrastructure that will be required to make it work, then consider the operational aspects and remember that effectively CRR is to provide additional train path capacity not only to get trains accross the river but through the CBD and to serve two areas that while having high patronage public transport needs are not currently served by rail.
Then start considering the reality that despite having expended in excess of a third of the cost of CRR your proposals have only provided less than a tenth of the benefit as a stop gap and that CRR in some form will still be required within five to seven years.
Newman has stated that he intends to stop waste of public funds so he espouses a half baked scheme that is doomed to failure rather than to invest that expendature in a real solution that provide long term effective benefit.
I wonder if some of those who support what is overall another slice of the stupidity that has been the reason for neglect of rail for decades.
What would be the situation if the quadruplication works that were carried out in the 1950's 1960's had not been carried out to "SAVE" [money and the costs of attempting to carry them out today.
Time to stop the foam and be a bit realistic and face the fact that there is no point in half doing the job, do it once and do it right.

[Dean Quick]

HEAR  HEAR !!!!

[Mr X]

I think TT said something along the lines of
Stop looking at "COST ONLY" analysis and look at the BENEFITS.
(Imaginary, fantasy options:)
In the way the LNP and the public think:
Option A = 2b for capacity improvement of 100%
Option B = 1.5b for capacity improvement of 25%

Option B = "better" because it "saves" $500m while in reality option A has higher benefits to costs.

[Stillwater]

In working up the CRR proposal, the state government didn't just look at the base case for passenger numbers.  A whole host of considerations come into play, which explains both the complexity of a project such as this and the 5-year developmental phase mentioned by Ozbob.

Here are the guidelines that Infrastructure Australia requires applicants for funding to adhere to in preparing and lodging a submission.

http://www.infrastructureaustralia.gov.au/reform_investment/

It is sobering to see how IA wants any new infrastructure project to be examined every which way in order to draw out the benefits.

[ozbob]

Media release 28 February 2012

SEQ: Brisbane minus public transport equals chaos!

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers welcomes the Government's announcement of system-wide free public transport tomorrow (1).

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"Today's general system meltdown has come about from simple geometry - Brisbane's rail and  most of the bus network are 'everything to the centre' convergent networks. In other words, unlike rail systems in overseas places like Toronto, London and Paris where rail lines are decentralised, Brisbane runs all services and infrastructure through a single 'core'. This makes the entire system prone to total, spreading and cascading failure. It is a 'house of cards', one 'card' falls and the entire system folds in an escalating chain reaction of failure including the road network."

"Ultimately, it doesn't matter what the fault was. It could have been some other fault on a different day, so long as a fault occurs within the core area, and the same thing - total network failure that spreads to shut down the rail, then shut down the busway system and then the road system will happen again."

RAIL Back On Track believes that today's incident should be looked at in a wider context, which is this:

Brisbane - Public Transport = Chaos

"This is why Cross River Rail is so important (2). The single fault alone today has cost around $1 million dollars in funds plus probably many millions of dollars more in lost time and work across the city and on the roads. Around 2016 slots for trains on the Merivale Bridge will be exhausted, which means that the road system and busway system, which are already under their own pressures will have to cope with increased load."

"Does the LNP support Cross River Rail or not? Yes or No? If it doesn't then what is the alternative plan?"

References:

1.  http://translink.com.au/travel-information/service-updates/bulletin/1330394577

2.  Cross River Rail Project  http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=2034.0

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[#Metro]

LOL, I am reading in all the papers with statements like

As train services begin to return to normal, attention has now turned to how a single power line could bring down such a major part of the transport network.

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/business-as-usual-for-afternoon-trains-20120228-1tzkj.html#ixzz1neowUIjC

It is very simple - the reason is geometry. The shape of the network and how the lines comes together facilitates this problem. All lines come together at Roma street and then pass though a single core which is Roma Street-Central-Brunswick St-Bowen Hills before branching out again. ANY fault at any of these four stations for any reason will result in total system failure. Doesn't matter which stripe party is in power, doesn't matter how well you do the maintenance, doesn't matter how well funded ... whatever. If you have a convergent network and a single core, if ANYTHING goes wrong, the entire network will stop working.

If this same fault were to happen in London, Paris or Toronto, the impacts would be limited to that specific line and cascading failure would not occur. These cities, while they run services to the CBD, don't have a single bundle of lines and a central core. If something goes wrong, pax use the other lines.

This also implies only one solution - to fix the problem and lessen the impact, isn't just more maintainence, funds etc... you have to change the shape of the network and decentralise it. And how do you do that - CROSS RIVER RAIL.