Cross River Rail Project

[Jonas Jade]

The only people who seemed to have lost credibility is Cr Quirk, The Company GHD, The Council of Mayors for SEQ and the Mayor of Redlands.

Just quietly, GHD won't lose much credibility at all. 

[mufreight]

The only people who seemed to have lost credibility is Cr Quirk, The Company GHD, The Council of Mayors for SEQ and the Mayor of Redlands.

Just quietly, GHD won't lose much credibility at all. 

Pretty hard to lose something you do not have   

[Jonas Jade]

 

[somebody]

The only people who seemed to have lost credibility is Cr Quirk, The Company GHD, The Council of Mayors for SEQ and the Mayor of Redlands.

Just quietly, GHD won't lose much credibility at all. 

If their name is that bad then how do they stay in business?

[Jonas Jade]

Seriously, I think its mostly that Mayor Council's ideas/work and they just got GHD to slapdash something together based around it to give it an "industry" name, and in their minds then "credibility". I did more detailed work than that (and produced better looking maps) in 2nd year uni engineering.

Most of their clients/potential clients won't care at all about this report.

[SurfRail]

Out of curiosity what would people think of a merivale duplication then tunnel under roma street and connect to the exhibition line?

ICRCS costed something like this (about the same as Roma Street but then additional tracks through Central to Bowen Hills) at around $4-5bn.  Not significantly cheaper, and much lower BCR, than Cross River Rail.  It still locks in the slow alignment and doesn't relieve pedestrian pressure on Central or Roma Street.

By going via the Ekka, you've basically only hit the periphery of town, so it is even less useful than the current route, and probably as or more expensive to dig out.

[BrizCommuter]

Well I'm going say this
- 7 car trains gives you 15% more peak flow capacity and doesn't require more staff, so capital intensive but operationally cheap. The only way you can truely assess this option is by comparing different options to get similar benefits in people moved for money spent. So I will keep open mind until I see some dollar comparisons. Remember also don't need to extend every platform and potentialy use normal 6 car plats on low use stations by having first and last door off platform. Modern electronics could control doors to prevent people walking into a breeze and fall down, if station is long enough, they open, if not they don't. The new rollingstock has open walkways between cars, so people are more likely to move through.

Just to add to the berating (in addition to earlier comments):

• These cars would probably be trailer cars - slower acceleration & deceleration = less track capacity
• Longer dwell times at stations where selective door opening is in operation = less track capacity

[ozbob]

Good on ya Briz, we are grateful  for your wise insights ...

Boy, I wish I had taken more photos when I first arrived at South Brisbane (1969) ...   

[frereOP]

Calling all rbot members!

Please support my question to Campbell Newman at oursay.org: http://oursay.org/s/xw

If it gets enough votes (top three), he will respond to the question. Let's show him how much support there is out there for CRR.

Cheers, Paul

So after Daylight Savings 84 votes and fluoridation 54, comes CRR on 29 votes. Come on guys, we're third out of a three horse race at the moment, but what about when some cool new questions are asked and there is a bit more media coverage?

Well I would have thought daylight saving was actually very important and affects far more people that CRR.  Unfortunately to gutless - dare I say VISIONLESS - politicians its too difficult and if they can't get something as simple as Daylight Saving right, they have a snowflakes chance in hell of getting public transport right.

[mufreight]

Calling all rbot members!

Please support my question to Campbell Newman at oursay.org: http://oursay.org/s/xw

If it gets enough votes (top three), he will respond to the question. Let's show him how much support there is out there for CRR.

Cheers, Paul

So after Daylight Savings 84 votes and fluoridation 54, comes CRR on 29 votes. Come on guys, we're third out of a three horse race at the moment, but what about when some cool new questions are asked and there is a bit more media coverage?

Well I would have thought daylight saving was actually very important and affects far more people that CRR.  Unfortunately to gutless - dare I say VISIONLESS - politicians its too difficult and if they can't get something as simple as Daylight Saving right, they have a snowflakes chance in hell of getting public transport right.

Daylight saving will accomplish nothing, CRR will reduce congestion stimulate the economy and remove both cars and polution from the CBD

[Gazza]

Daylight saving will accomplish nothing

Would be good because it means we could have the sun set later in the evening rather than annoying you in the early hours when you are trying to sleep.

[Stillwater]

Queenslanders are up at sparrows, walking the dog, jogging, watering the garden etc.  They would appear to adjust their body clocks naturally, but not their timepieces.  Strange, I know.

[Gazza]

And yes allowing people one free trip for regulars, whats wrong with that considering the base cost of PT travel in Qld on world scale is now one of the more expensive?

Because the base cost should be as low as possible for all.

[Stillwater]

Insofar as the CRR project being a burden on state debt, remember it is the federal government (and not the state) that paid for the $20 million feasibility study.  In the letter of transfer to his federal counterpart, Mr Lucas stated that Queensland's intention was that all the government money going towards CRR would come from the federal government.  Therefore, as the state government has planned it, there will be no drawdown on state funds for CRR.  Not one cent.  Some say that could be the undoing of the plan.

It remains to be seen whether the federal government sees meeting 100% of the government cost for CRR as a good idea -- in other words, 'gifting' billions of dollars to Queensland to build CRR.  

In such circumstances, the argument that CRR would be a burden on the Queensland taxpayer is true to the extent that all Queenslanders share, with their fellow Australians, the tax burden CRR would incur at a federal level.  It is not true to say that all Queenslanders will share the tax burden in isolation from all Australians.

Queenslanders make up about one-sixth of the national population.  The finance plan the Queensland Government has in mind is that five-sixths of the cost of CRR should come from the federal taxes paid by people in the states of New South Wales, Victoria, Tasmania, South Australia, Western Australia, and the Northern Territory and the ACT.  Clever plan, eh.

Furthermore, the Queensland Government believes much of the finances for its Connecting SEQ 2031 projects should be geared this way.  That's why the plan is 'world class' -- it's up there with the way the Mafia runs businesses with other people's money.

[ozbob]

Media release 22 January 2012

SEQ: Cross River Rail bipartisan support is the way forward

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers calls for the Cross River Rail project to be implemented as soon as possible and all parties to commit to this project of national significance.

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"Cross River Rail has had years of detailed work up. Compare this  to the so called  'Cleveland Solution' thought bubble(1, 2), so rushed and mediocre that the published route forgot about Kurilpa bridge! The Cleveland solution is actually a non-solution, which will cost nearly as much as Cross River Rail and only give about a quarter of the capacity benefits that Cross River Rail will deliver for the entire rail network in south-east Queensland."

"It would be a disgrace and a tragedy for Queensland, and indirectly for Australia, if petty politics by Mayors, clearly out of touch with reality jeopardise the important project which is Cross River Rail.  If you recall they were once soundly behind it, until Mr Newman left their fold."

"Cross River Rail is an all inclusive cost, properly costed, evaluated and tested. Contrast to the very sloppy and hastily drawn up Cleveland non-solution thought bubble which at first critical examination fails dismally (2)."

"Competition for Infrastructure Australia funding will now be more intense considering  Melbourne, Sydney, Adelaide and Perth have major rail projects in train.  Any further delays with moving ahead with Cross River Rail could mean missing the train at Albert Street Station and gridlock for the next 50 years.  It is important that all political parties support Cross River Rail.  Not proceeding with Cross River Rail will cripple the economy of south-east Queensland as gridlock and transport failure impacts."

References:

1.   http://www.councilofmayorsseq.qld.gov.au/docs/Publications/COMSEQ-Public-Transport-in-SEQ_LOW-RES.pdf

2.   http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=7475.0

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[dwb]

Peak hour is meant to be crowded otherwise your doing it wrong 

+1

[dwb]

http://www.scottemerson.com.au/media-releases/albanese-wont-commit-to-labors-rail-plan.html

Albanese won't commit to Labor's rail plan

Thursday, 19 January 2012 12:27

The State Opposition said the $8 billion Cross River Rail is unlikely to ever be built after Federal Infrastructure Minister Anthony Albanese refused to commit funds for it.

Shadow Transport Minister Scott Emerson said Mr Albanese's comments show State Labor's 'Rolls Royce' plan to redress the looming inner city rail capacity crisis is unaffordable and undeliverable.

"When the Bligh Government's Labor mate in Canberra Anthony Albanese won't even promise to help fund the project, you know it's dead in the water," he said.

"The best Mr Albanese could say was that Cross River Rail project was just one of a number of 'competing priorities' for federal funds.

"Cross River Rail proponents may as well take a ticket and stand at the back of the line for funding."

Mr Emerson said with the Federal Government desperately trying to achieve a budget surplus, Mr Albanese was distancing himself from the project because of its massive price tag.

"Even State Transport Minister Anastasia Palaszczuk has refused to say how much money the Bligh Government wants from the Federal Government for the Cross River Rail because she knows Mr Albanese won't put his money where his mouth is.

"Only retiring senior State Labor minister Neil Roberts has been honest enough to admit to the 612 ABC Morning Program that there is no money for Cross River Rail and no date for it to be built.".

An LNP Government would consider alternatives to the Cross River Rail project to provide a cost-effective and affordable solution to the inner city rail capacity crisis.

"An LNP government will work hard to improve our public transport system.

"Only the CanDo team will invest in crucial infrastructure.                                           

"It's time for a change. It's time to get Queensland back on track."

You'd think they want Fed Labor to agree to spending $8bil off the cuff to a media/opposition question?

Oh, that's pretty much how LNP work, then they just forget to deliver the "promise"....

What bollocks!

[dwb]

Who cares about a budget surplus, seriously the money is better spent on infrastructure and keeping people employed. Mr Albanse slams the cleveland solution but won't commit to CRR, Whats his solution?

The fact that Minister Albanese has appeared in this little saga of 'con' is very significant.

IA doesn't meet until Feb, something Mr Emerson has overlooked ...  It's IA call ...

I think you misunderstand how IA works... they are an ADVISORY body to government. They DO NOT make budget decisions. It is in no way "IA's call", beyond them recommending that CRR MAY have a better benefit than another competing project. Period.

[dwb]

- 7 car trains gives you 15% more peak flow capacity and doesn't require more staff, so capital intensive but operationally cheap.

You can get a similar effect by ripping out seats! Of course, I'm not allowed to say that 

Presumably NGR tenders have this in them tho... (politically) easier to buy new trains with less seats than take seats out of existing trains.

[ozbob]

Semantics,  it is IA's call.  If IA don't recommend a project is ready to proceed, it will never be considered for funding under that umbrella.

[dwb]

Daylight saving will accomplish nothing, CRR will reduce congestion stimulate the economy and remove both cars and polution from the CBD

+1

[dwb]

And yes allowing people one free trip for regulars, whats wrong with that considering the base cost of PT travel in Qld on world scale is now one of the more expensive?

Because the base cost should be as low as possible for all.

Disagree. Do you see Virgin making all tickets base cost... maybe cheaper than Qantas' old prices but nope, no way, in peak demand you pay peak!

[dwb]

Semantics,  it is IA's call.  If IA don't recommend a project is ready to proceed, it will never be considered for funding under that umbrella.

Perhaps, but then again, politics could trump "readiness" and the opposite is not true, if IA do recommend a project as suitable and viable for funding, that does not in any way guarantee government will fund a single cent!

[Stillwater]

Mr Albanese established IA to take the politics out of funding major infrastructure projects at a federal level and to open up a clean and transparent evaluation methodology.  Contrast this with the Emerson/LNP approach to goad Mr Albanese into a quick and dirty political decision.  What does that say about a potential future government of Queensland?

[#Metro]

An LNP Government would consider alternatives to the Cross River Rail project to provide a cost-effective and affordable solution to the inner city rail capacity crisis.

Even more reason to think the GHD Report was LNP policy announcement by stealth - if it went banana shaped, they could see public reaction but not be attributed the credits for it if it bombed.

An LNP government will work hard to improve our public transport system.

A string of infeasable and ridiculous 'solutions' - dismembering the cleveland line, 7 car trains, 9-trips then free, extra platforms at South Brisbane, oh and let's not forget the Brisbane Subway "Like Barcelona" (ugh) in lieu of CRR - it just looks silly.

Even worse, it would be cheaper to simply just adopt Core Frequent Network as policy which has no new infrastructure, is rapid to deliver (1-2 years) and is actually useful.

"Only the CanDo team will invest in crucial infrastructure.      

Except CRR apparently!

The cost of CRR is on par with other comparable megaprojects internationally, such as the TTC's Eglinton Cross Town rapid LRT and London CrossRail.

[Cam]

Daylight saving will accomplish nothing.

There are many people from Sydney & Melbourne who have considered relocating to SE Qld but still consider that Queensland is backward. Whether this is warranted or not, it is a reality.

Introducing daylight saving for SE Qld would significantly change the perception of Queensland.

Changing the very restricted supermarket hours would also help. Coles in Tweed Heads is open until midnight on a Saturday night. There has recently been a relaxation of supermarket hours by the Qld Government for those supermarkets on the eastern side of the Gold Coast Highway to allow them to open to 10pm on Saturdays & 8pm on Sundays. The Brisbane CBD supermarkets close at 7pm on Saturdays. The Qld Government has recently allowed supermarkets in New Farm to open until 9pm on Saturdays.

However, for the rest of Queensland, supermarkets close at 5/5.30pm on Saturdays & 6pm on Sundays & many of those from NSW, Victoria & overseas can't beleive it when they find out.

[Mr X]

My supermarket (inner Brisbane, has three certain BUZ routes past it's front door) is only open until 9pm weekdays, 5pm saturday and 6pm sunday. No wonder people go rushing in the last hour on the weekends- otherwise they miss out!! For a growing inner city suburb this type of opening hours is disgraceful. We're literally telling paying customers to stop shopping and leave when the store closes. DAILY. Every other supermarket in our region has pretty much similar hours- Woolloongabba, Fairfield, Buranda etc.

Supermarkets should be open until at least 10:30pm on a weekday (no penalty rate BS for retailers to pull as you don't get penalty rates until after midnight), and 7pm on weekends.

I vote yes to daylight saving too. Having the sun up so early in summer is ridiculous.

[#Metro]

I think trading hours for shopping centres should be totally deregulated. At the moment places like 7 eleven don't like that and are running the line "that will hurt small business" blah blah. Fact is, anything you buy in those convenience stores are priced at extortion levels, having woolies and coles open then would allow people to get cheap stuff.

Also might be good for PT too to have late night services with people on them as well.

[Mr X]

There is precedent to being open late anyway, proof of people actually shopping at those times. Before Christmas we were open one night until midnight and we still had customers shopping until around 11pm, after then it as totally dead. Not much unused staff as the checkout department only had self serve open and did all their cleaning etc. when the store was open so at midnight they simply shut doors and went home. Same for deli and fresh produce.

We shouldn't be forced to kick people out when they are still shopping because the store is closing. That loses us money!

[dwb]

My IGA used to be open 24hrs, I now believe it is until midnight. It is great. Used to be that other Woolies brand shop (can't think of it right now)... was pretty much a failure til IGA bought it. Packed always now! I'm pretty sure Coles/Woolies don't want longer hours though... that just increases staffing costs for them.

BUT.... aren't we getting a little off topic?!

[somebody]

I agree about shopping hours.

And yes allowing people one free trip for regulars, whats wrong with that considering the base cost of PT travel in Qld on world scale is now one of the more expensive?

Because the base cost should be as low as possible for all.

Disagree. Do you see Virgin making all tickets base cost... maybe cheaper than Qantas' old prices but nope, no way, in peak demand you pay peak!

I don't think this is really comparable.  Translink is a monopoly for the public, where Virgin and Qantas are private companies for profit.

[mufreight]

Daylight saving will accomplish nothing.

  Coles in Tweed Heads is open until midnight on a Saturday night.

About 15 years ago the Coles at Tweed Heads used to be open 24/7 obviously market forces have infuenced their current hours of business and with a fully deregulated business hours businesses wpuld then set their business hours to the market not the clock, the till being the most efficent regulator.

[SurfRail]

Queensland has probably the most complicated and non-beneficial system of retail trading hours regulation in the country, as I have alluded to previously.  The legislation distinguishes between 3 types of businesses, which have varying degrees of restriction, and different parts of Queensland have different sets of hours.  Trading hours are draconian even in the South-East and the few tourist-oriented places like it (Airlie Beach and some of the bigger coastal cities have similar hours), plus no liquor sales in supermarkets. 

I see no reason why any of this regulation should continue to operate AT ALL (exception of before afternoons on ANZAC Day probably). 

Victoria isn't suffering.  With the recent relaxation of the regulations in metropolitan Perth (shock horror) people actually go into the city at night now for reasons other than to pick a fight!

Think of all the extra PT demand created...

[HappyTrainGuy]

Ooohhh no no no. We fear change!

[mufreight]

Queensland has probably the most complicated and non-beneficial system of retail trading hours regulation in the country, as I have alluded to previously.  The legislation distinguishes between 3 types of businesses, which have varying degrees of restriction, and different parts of Queensland have different sets of hours.  Trading hours are draconian even in the South-East and the few tourist-oriented places like it (Airlie Beach and some of the bigger coastal cities have similar hours), plus no liquor sales in supermarkets. 

I see no reason why any of this regulation should continue to operate AT ALL (exception of before afternoons on ANZAC Day probably). 

Victoria isn't suffering.  With the recent relaxation of the regulations in metropolitan Perth (shock horror) people actually go into the city at night now for reasons other than to pick a fight!

Think of all the extra PT demand created...

One must consider the numbers of public servants employed to create and monitor these restrictive regulations and the income generated for the government by the prosucition of those breaching them.

[dwb]

One must consider the numbers of public servants employed to create and monitor these restrictive regulations and the income generated for the government by the prosucition of those breaching them.

I doubt it, these regulations exist bc someone benefits and I bet it is Coles/Woolworths primarily!

[Mr X]

Coles hardly benefits from kicking out a store full of people at 5pm on a saturday... 

[WTN]

Funny enough I have a new IGA that opens until midnight everyday. And it's right beside a recent BUZ service and about 400m from Coles.

[SurfRail]

Funny enough I have a new IGA that opens until midnight everyday. And it's right beside a recent BUZ service and about 400m from Coles.

http://www.justice.qld.gov.au/fair-and-safe-work/industrial-relations/trading-hours

IGAs will often fall outside the trading hours restrictions because they are usually franchises run by private (Pty Ltd) companies, so they can get away with being classified as an "independent retail shop" and not be bound.

The other categories are exempt shops (certain specific types of shop listed in the Act and mentioned on the website) and non-exempt shops (anything that is not an exempt shop or an independent retail shop).

If you are a non-exempt shop (ie a supermarket run by a public company such as a Coles), then you have to obey the trading restrictions in the area in which your shop sits.

(This has not got much to do with CRR, has it?  Perhaps split the thread...)

[Mr X]

Funny enough I have a new IGA that opens until midnight everyday. And it's right beside a recent BUZ service and about 400m from Coles.

There is also an IGA moving in around 500m away from where our store is. Not sure if it is there yet.
Along 3 BUZ routes, too.

Same store?