Cross River Rail Project

[somebody]

Show us one shred of evidence that trains aren't adequate and are at that point where services need to be ramped up.

Shred?  A number of the Gold Coast services do fall short of the standard.  It's just that there are more pressing demands on the network.

[Arnz]

In principal, I do agree that the GC could use a few more services during peak.. Not sure if it's to the point of 6tph just yet, but as others have said, if they stopped all stations BNH-KRY, it would most likely be worth it. 5-min frequencies on the Gold Coast simply cannot be done on current infrastructure and signalling. The signalling between Beenleigh and Ormeau plus the single line Coomera to Helensvale simply will not take 5min frequencies.

Adding new services would take the frequency from 15 minutes to 12 to 10 to allow even headways. I understand that on current infrastructure high frequency is not possible, but I never suggested that QR do the impossible. Cross River Rail will be needed of course. 

One of the reasons why CRR is being built is because there will be growth on this and the beenleigh line.

I suggest anyone who disagrees catch a morning service arriving in the CBD between 8-9 am. Are there people sitting on the floor/standing in the doorways?

I've seen the GC arrivals into South Bank quite a number of times.  A lot of backwards facing seats available with a few people standing per every doorways and the odd few with the stools.  They suffer from the "not sitting in the backward seats syndrome" like every other line on the network.  For the vast majority of trains the so called 'Bombay' conditions is a exaggeration.

The GC trains could do with some more stops during the morning peak.  Like the report said, GC trains has a grand total of "0" trains with 100%+ standing capacity.  

Sure there are trains with fully seated capacity, but not to the extent of overcrowding like the CM and tramtrain like to foam on about.  Like it was said on existing infrastructure, make GC trains stop all stations Varsity Lakes to Kuraby while increasing services for both lines (and have the all stoppers start at Kuraby like the Petrie/Caboolture line) and I'll support.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Varsity Lakes 500
Robina 684
Nerang 740
Helensvale 968
Coomera 502
Ormeau 224

Good job on the boardings, what about the alightings.
Varsity Lakes Start of services
Robina 2
Nerang 33
Helensvale 48
Coomera 25
Ormeau 19
Beenleigh 152
~279 people

One 3 car IMU carries what?? ~230 people seated...

[#Metro]

Disagree.

The report is lacking in one key aspect - they don't show how many people get on GC trains at Beenleligh.
And this is important given that Beenleigh is fed by buses and, more people would get on at Beenleigh as well.

Not a stretch of the imagination that 152 people would board a train at beenleigh to head to Brisbane, given that it is express.... cancelling out the people who got off...

[Arnz]

Disagree.

The report is lacking in one key aspect - they don't show how many people get on GC trains at Beenleligh.
And this is important given that Beenleigh is fed by buses and, more people would get on at Beenleigh as well.

Not a stretch of the imagination that 152 people would board a train at beenleigh to head to Brisbane, given that it is express.... cancelling out the people who got off...

That part of the report is 152 people getting off at Beenleigh, not boarding!  and in the counter-peak direction I may add.

[Arnz]

OT: Love your avatar pic HTG    I thought that kind of spelling to Caboolture would be kept to OzScrapers 

[Gazza]

2 points.

-For pax South of Cockburn Central it's 10min peak freq.
-Perth still often runs 3 car sets in peak.

[SurfRail]

2 points.

-For pax South of Cockburn Central it's 10min peak freq.
-Perth still often runs 3 car sets in peak.

Further points

- Mandurah is the backbone of the entire southern suburbs of Perth excluding the area immediately adjacent to and west of the Armadale line.  The Gold Coast is in no way the backbone of southern Brisbane - the busway is.
- Mandurah relies on high frequency bus feeders and park and ride to get passengers on rail and to the city.  North of Beenleigh, the line relies primarily on walk-up patronage with some parking and bus interchange, with plenty of direct bus services to the city.  My observations of Cockburn "Central" indicate that there is negligible walk-up patronage for the Mandurah line.
- Mandurah has only ten stations to service.  They only have a few skip-stop patterns in peak (eg all to the city except Canning Bridge), everything else is all stops to Cockburn Central or Mandurah.
- Mandurah is a faster trip and is therefore easier to service.  There is no getting around this issue here without massive realignment/a new corridor/less safe operation.

Comparisons between the Gold Coast line and Mandurah really only go so far.

I would expect that unless the way the stopping patterns work is dramatically altered (eg as per Connecting SEQ 2031 with a southern Gold Coast express, northern Gold Coast/southern Logan express and northern Logan/southern Brisbane all stopper), the best you will ever expect is a 10 minute headway at any Gold Coast station.  Even with a change in operating paradigm like the above, you would only get better than that at the interchange points, although there would be a lot more capacity available with empty trains starting closer in.

[HappyTrainGuy]

The 152 figure are passengers detraining at Beenleigh on the inbound direction during morning peak meaning they came from Omerau-Varsity Lakes.

LONG LIVE CHANNEL 9!!! Haha.

[petey3801]

Sorry, but what a load of bollocks. Stop exaggerationg everything to try to prove your point. Prove your point with facts, not this sort of BS that would normally be found in the CM.

Nonsense, Perth already runs trains at higher frequencies on comparable lines. Not only that but Helensvale has the most boardings in the AM Peak as per the tracker, Q3, 2011. And not surprisingly since it is an interchange station with buses to Southport.

Varsity Lakes 500
Robina 684
Nerang 740
Helensvale 968
Coomera 502
Ormeau 224

Beenleigh/Loganlea/etc - not in report for GC trains

Sorry, should have been clearer in the section I was saying was complete bollocks, bolded below:

Helensvale tends to be the station at which huge numbers get on, usually sardine conditions from there on.

If there is enough room for people to set up deck chairs, it is in no way sardine conditions. Plus, 968 in peak time is not that massive, it's pretty decent, but not a show stopper. As I said, I agree in Gold Coast could use more services, but only if they stop at all stations to Kuraby in order to fully utilise the double track Kuraby - Beenleigh in the peak.

In principal, I do agree that the GC could use a few more services during peak.. Not sure if it's to the point of 6tph just yet, but as others have said, if they stopped all stations BNH-KRY, it would most likely be worth it. 5-min frequencies on the Gold Coast simply cannot be done on current infrastructure and signalling. The signalling between Beenleigh and Ormeau plus the single line Coomera to Helensvale simply will not take 5min frequencies.

Adding new services would take the frequency from 15 minutes to 12 to 10 to allow even headways. I understand that on current infrastructure high frequency is not possible, but I never suggested that QR do the impossible. Cross River Rail will be needed of course.

One of the reasons why CRR is being built is because there will be growth on this and the beenleigh line.

I suggest anyone who disagrees catch a morning service arriving in the CBD between 8-9 am. Are there people sitting on the floor/standing in the doorways?

Can't see anything I don't really agree with, and that wasn't already addressed in my post.. I wouldn't be surprised if the Gold Coast has 12min frequency in the new timetable rewrite, but lets wait and see with that one...

As for people getting on at Beenleigh because it's an express... Boo hoo. They can stand. They've got their own trains if they want a seat (some of which are partial express also), so no sympathy from me if they get on a coastie and have to stand. In the afternoon when they fill the seats and people from the coast have to stand is another problem, but no easy way of solving that problem really (just like the NCL/Cab line).

[somebody]

- Mandurah is a faster trip and is therefore easier to service.  There is no getting around this issue here without massive realignment/a new corridor/less safe operation.

CRR will help to some degree, although that seems to meet the criteria of "massive realignment".

I wouldn't be surprised if the Gold Coast has 12min frequency in the new timetable rewrite, but lets wait and see with that one...

I'd be very surprised.  Without additional space in Robina yard, that could only be done with a number of MTs out of Mayne (or Clapham if instituted).

As for people getting on at Beenleigh because it's an express... Boo hoo. They can stand. They've got their own trains if they want a seat (some of which are partial express also), so no sympathy from me if they get on a coastie and have to stand. In the afternoon when they fill the seats and people from the coast have to stand is another problem, but no easy way of solving that problem really (just like the NCL/Cab line).

I disagree with this whole line of argument.  I'll leave it at that.

I don't see the need to all stop to Kuraby from Varsity Lakes.  Unless the all stoppers are starting from Beenleigh more often than approx. every 12 minutes, there is no need.

[O_128]

- Mandurah is a faster trip and is therefore easier to service.  There is no getting around this issue here without massive realignment/a new corridor/less safe operation.

CRR will help to some degree, although that seems to meet the criteria of "massive realignment".

I wouldn't be surprised if the Gold Coast has 12min frequency in the new timetable rewrite, but lets wait and see with that one...

I'd be very surprised.  Without additional space in Robina yard, that could only be done with a number of MTs out of Mayne (or Clapham if instituted).

As for people getting on at Beenleigh because it's an express... Boo hoo. They can stand. They've got their own trains if they want a seat (some of which are partial express also), so no sympathy from me if they get on a coastie and have to stand. In the afternoon when they fill the seats and people from the coast have to stand is another problem, but no easy way of solving that problem really (just like the NCL/Cab line).

I disagree with this whole line of argument.  I'll leave it at that.

I don't see the need to all stop to Kuraby from Varsity Lakes.  Unless the all stoppers are starting from Beenleigh more often than approx. every 12 minutes, there is no need.

From a personal point of view stopping all stations to yerongpilly would be much better than to all beenleigh to kuraby. Much more people to pick up

[paulg]

Calling all rbot members!

Please support my question to Campbell Newman at oursay.org: http://oursay.org/s/xw

If it gets enough votes (top three), he will respond to the question. Let's show him how much support there is out there for CRR.

Cheers, Paul

This question has now dropped out of the top three. If you would like to see CRR built as per the current reference design, please add your vote here: http://oursay.org/s/xw

Cheers, Paul

[curator49]

You get seven votes so you can seriously add to the total. Surely the future of public transport andin particular CRR is more important than some of the minor questions being spruiked by other groups.

[Mr X]

As much as I want Daylight Saving, Cross River Rail is way up in the priority list in my books.

[ozbob]

http://www.scottemerson.com.au/media-releases/albanese-wont-commit-to-labors-rail-plan.html

Albanese won't commit to Labor's rail plan

Thursday, 19 January 2012 12:27

The State Opposition said the $8 billion Cross River Rail is unlikely to ever be built after Federal Infrastructure Minister Anthony Albanese refused to commit funds for it.

Shadow Transport Minister Scott Emerson said Mr Albanese's comments show State Labor's 'Rolls Royce' plan to redress the looming inner city rail capacity crisis is unaffordable and undeliverable.

"When the Bligh Government's Labor mate in Canberra Anthony Albanese won't even promise to help fund the project, you know it's dead in the water," he said.

"The best Mr Albanese could say was that Cross River Rail project was just one of a number of 'competing priorities' for federal funds.

"Cross River Rail proponents may as well take a ticket and stand at the back of the line for funding."

Mr Emerson said with the Federal Government desperately trying to achieve a budget surplus, Mr Albanese was distancing himself from the project because of its massive price tag.

"Even State Transport Minister Anastasia Palaszczuk has refused to say how much money the Bligh Government wants from the Federal Government for the Cross River Rail because she knows Mr Albanese won't put his money where his mouth is.

"Only retiring senior State Labor minister Neil Roberts has been honest enough to admit to the 612 ABC Morning Program that there is no money for Cross River Rail and no date for it to be built.".

An LNP Government would consider alternatives to the Cross River Rail project to provide a cost-effective and affordable solution to the inner city rail capacity crisis.

"An LNP government will work hard to improve our public transport system.

"Only the CanDo team will invest in crucial infrastructure.                                           

"It's time for a change. It's time to get Queensland back on track."

[ozbob]

Twitter

Robert_Dow Robert Dow

@scottemersonmp What is the LNP going to do? That is what people want to hear Scott, not more dissing on a plan that will go ahead.
12 seconds ago

==========================

Twitter

Robert_Dow Robert Dow

@scottemersonmp the extra platforms at South Bne is sillier than the 7 car idea last time. The Cleveland con is just that. What will you do?
3 seconds ago

[O_128]

Who cares about a budget surplus, seriously the money is better spent on infrastructure and keeping people employed. Mr Albanse slams the cleveland solution but won't commit to CRR, Whats his solution?

[ozbob]

Who cares about a budget surplus, seriously the money is better spent on infrastructure and keeping people employed. Mr Albanse slams the cleveland solution but won't commit to CRR, Whats his solution?

The fact that Minister Albanese has appeared in this little saga of 'con' is very significant.

IA doesn't meet until Feb, something Mr Emerson has overlooked ...  It's IA call ...

[#Metro]

An LNP Government would consider alternatives to the Cross River Rail project to provide a cost-effective and affordable solution to the inner city rail capacity crisis.

"An LNP government will work hard to improve our public transport system.

"Only the CanDo team will invest in crucial infrastructure.                                           

Yes, like funding to hand out free pogo sticks at Gold Coast and Beenleigh line rail stations plus Cultural Centre busway to get commuters to work...

The cost of CRR is consistent with other large tunnel projects, such as the Toronto Transit Commission's Eglinton Cross-Town rapid LRT and London Cross Rail IIRC.

[#Metro]

http://www.toysrusinc.com/assets/uploads/content/bravo_sports_pogo_sticks.jpg

Affordable, economical and affordable! Did I mention affordable?!

Left to right - Cleveland Line, Gold Coast, Flagstone & Beenleigh pogos

[Jonas Jade]

"The best Mr Albanese could say was that Cross River Rail project was just one of a number of 'competing priorities' for federal funds.

"Cross River Rail proponents may as well take a ticket and stand at the back of the line for funding."

Mr Emerson said with the Federal Government desperately trying to achieve a budget surplus, Mr Albanese was distancing himself from the project because of its massive price tag.

"Even State Transport Minister Anastasia Palaszczuk has refused to say how much money the Bligh Government wants from the Federal Government for the Cross River Rail because she knows Mr Albanese won't put his money where his mouth is.

What a ridiculous quote. It's with IA now! Of course the Federal government can't commit to anything yet... if they did now then they'd have to for all the IA projects  

And if you want to know how much money they want then go and read the documents on it - and it's likely they won't know how much they're getting until IA does their announcements either.

[Mr X]

I am of governments using the "Only the CanDo team will invest in crucial infrastructure." line and then jumping on the bandwagon of second rate half arsed solutions:
- 7 car trains
- South Brisbane terminators (the trains and people go where...?) and platforms (where...?)
- light rail/light metro to Cleveland ( )
- free travel after 9 trips

I can't believe normal punters believe this sh%t. Where is the scrutiny?

This "cheap is good and budget should be in the black ASAP" mindset has to stop. NOW.
It's the equivalent of me saying a house is too expensive and will put me in debt so I should pick a park and set up a tent. Cheap!

If they truly were the team that will "invest in crucial infrastructure", they'd support the critical element to the core- Cross River Rail!

[Stillwater]

Mr Albanese's comments are prudent and proper.  His advisory body, Infrastructure Australia, is evaluating a range of projects from the states, including CRR, and the federal minister should wait until he receives IA's considered advice.  That's all.  He knows he should not pre-empt the process.  The more telling thing about Scott Emerson's comment is that he is yet to flick the switch from carping Opposition to incoming government thinking mode.

[#Metro]

I am of governments using the "Only the CanDo team will invest in crucial infrastructure." line and then jumping on the bandwagon of second rate half arsed solutions:
- 7 car trains
- South Brisbane terminators (the trains and people go where...?) and platforms (where...?)
- light rail/light metro to Cleveland ( )
- free travel after 9 trips

I can't believe normal punters believe this sh%t. Where is the scrutiny?

I can't believe it's not more concrete!

The Core Frequent Network is the cheapest and fastest improvement of all - no new infrastructure, can be up and running within 1 year if they spent what they spent on 2 km of Eastern Busway!

[ozbob]

7 car trains was explored exhaustively last election campaign.  Was shown to be economically and physically impractical, another non-solution.  I have had discussions with Queensland Rail on this and they have pointed out the problems as well. If carriages overhang that line is blocked,  just think about Central for a minute ...

LNP ticketing policy is just the same as Labor in fact.  The LNP has not offered any real viable plans for the future other than dissing the government.  The problem with public transport in SEQ is that it is the result of a mediocre opposition failing to keep any pressure on a failing government.  They are both as bad as each other IMHO.  And the LNP is offering nothing for the future, at least CRR is now at the final critical conjuncture.

9 car trains on long haul express services might well be an option in a post CRR environment with a system designed to handle that.

With the extra platforms at South Brisbane I hope they bring back doubled header PB15s as well, be real grouse hey?    


http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2276/2481132664_d4f5b47ba3_m.jpg

[#Metro]

- 7 car trains gives you 15% more peak flow capacity and doesn't require more staff, so capital intensive but operationally cheap.

You can get a similar effect by ripping out seats! Of course, I'm not allowed to say that 

[ozbob]

- 7 car trains gives you 15% more peak flow capacity and doesn't require more staff, so capital intensive but operationally cheap.

You can get a similar effect by ripping out seats! Of course, I'm not allowed to say that 

[ozbob]

Seriously, ripping out seats is actually not going do much.  The design limits of the trains (6 car) are around 1000 pax ( http://www.queenslandrail.com.au/RailServices/City/Fleet/Pages/Fleet.aspx ).  I have seen that exceeded many times though even with the present configurations (authorities will not admit to that as pax load is exceeding design specs).  Removing seats is just going to mean that more people stand but loads will probably change little overall, just decreasing comfort.

Frequency is what is needed, around the clock with an improved fare structure to drive out of peak travel ...

[somebody]

Whoa Shane.  Pick up something heavy with your left hand.  It might balance your right toppling (not really leaning).

- 7 car trains gives you 15% more peak flow capacity and doesn't require more staff, so capital intensive but operationally cheap. The only way you can truely assess this option is by comparing different options to get similar benefits in people moved for money spent. So I will keep open mind until I see some dollar comparisons. Remember also don't need to extend every platform and potentialy use normal 6 car plats on low use stations by having first and last door off platform. Modern electronics could control doors to prevent people walking into a breeze and fall down, if station is long enough, they open, if not they don't. The new rollingstock has open walkways between cars, so people are more likely to move through.

Err, given that there was track capacity for as many 6 car trains as they could build within the term of the current government, there is a 0% improvement from the 7 car trains.

Fouling level crossings at places like Sherwood isn't a concern in your world?  Similarly, if the adjacent signalling section at a platform is fouled by the 7th car then that would reduce capacity.

I would have thought that even people that didn't use trains could see that this was a stupid and cr@p option.

- Sth Brisbane terminators, last few times I have caught peak hour trains there are alot of people that get off at Sth Bank and Sth Brisbane and many walk across the river to lower George street area (I did). If one train every 30min did this you would see these communters try and gravitate to these trains as they will have more seats, thus leaving space for others. Where would trains go? agree, I would not have thought there is the terminating capacity in such a busy period and I though if a train slot was available to Sth Brisbane, a spot would be available all the way through, unless it was used by Ipswich trains. Alt they plan to build a shunt neck to run into along side the bridge line?

Firstly there are currently no facilities at South Brisbane which allow termination, and not really anywhere to build them.  But let's say that they add crossovers such that they can use platform 2 as a centre turn back.  Then what trains would actually terminate at South Brisbane?  Surely the most logical ones is the Gold Coast trains as they are the least loaded over the Merivale Bridge.  I'd believe the LNP doing that to their Gold Coast voters when I see it.

But just having these trains take over the service on the inner 3 stations in peak and also serve Yeerongpilly is a better idea.

- LR to Clevelane, yes wank

- Free travel after 9 trips, incentive for people to commute by PT 5 days a week, not 3 or 4 and drive. I like it and lets face it most communters rarely travel by PT on weekends and other times. When you had the Weekly's you have commuters know if they drive one day they are paying twice. But like free travel before 7am in Melb, doubt it will make much difference.

It's an incentive for a few, higher base fares are a disincentive for many.

[#Metro]

Err, given that there was track capacity for as many 6 car trains as they could build within the term of the current government, there is a 0% improvement from the 7 car trains.

Fouling level crossings at places like Sherwood isn't a concern in your world?  Similarly, if the adjacent signalling section at a platform is fouled by the 7th car then that would reduce capacity.

Sounds like the "QR Death Carriage" IMHO! Hanging off the level crossing, just waiting to be hit by a wayward car or truck, or another train service!

[mufreight]

I am of governments using the "Only the CanDo team will invest in crucial infrastructure." line and then jumping on the bandwagon of second rate half arsed solutions:
- 7 car trains
- South Brisbane terminators (the trains and people go where...?) and platforms (where...?)
- light rail/light metro to Cleveland ( )
- free travel after 9 trips

I can't believe normal punters believe this sh%t. Where is the scrutiny?

This "cheap is good and budget should be in the black ASAP" mindset has to stop. NOW.
It's the equivalent of me saying a house is too expensive and will put me in debt so I should pick a park and set up a tent. Cheap!

If they truly were the team that will "invest in crucial infrastructure", they'd support the critical element to the core- Cross River Rail!

Well I'm going say this
- 7 car trains gives you 15% more peak flow capacity and doesn't require more staff, so capital intensive but operationally cheap. The only way you can truely assess this option is by comparing different options to get similar benefits in people moved for money spent. So I will keep open mind until I see some dollar comparisons. Remember also don't need to extend every platform and potentialy use normal 6 car plats on low use stations by having first and last door off platform. Modern electronics could control doors to prevent people walking into a breeze and fall down, if station is long enough, they open, if not they don't. The new rollingstock has open walkways between cars, so people are more likely to move through.

- Sth Brisbane terminators, last few times I have caught peak hour trains there are alot of people that get off at Sth Bank and Sth Brisbane and many walk across the river to lower George street area (I did). If one train every 30min did this you would see these communters try and gravitate to these trains as they will have more seats, thus leaving space for others. Where would trains go? agree, I would not have thought there is the terminating capacity in such a busy period and I though if a train slot was available to Sth Brisbane, a spot would be available all the way through, unless it was used by Ipswich trains. Alt they plan to build a shunt neck to run into along side the bridge line?

- LR to Clevelane, yes wank

- Free travel after 9 trips, incentive for people to commute by PT 5 days a week, not 3 or 4 and drive. I like it and lets face it most communters rarely travel by PT on weekends and other times. When you had the Weekly's you have commuters know if they drive one day they are paying twice. But like free travel before 7am in Melb, doubt it will make much difference.

Another absurd bit of foam from someone who has not the slightest notion about what he is talking about.
The 7 car train set idea was canvased at the time of the last election and completely debunked then on the basis of practical reality.
The reconfiguring of the existing train sets, yes it can be done but at a cost that is less than cost effective, then comes the problems with platform lengths, every platform on the system would need to be extended, signaling the entire signaling system would need to be modified through the CBD and at most junctions because of the overlaps on blocks, yes longer trains could be run with the existing system but less train parths with slower operation of trains as in many cases while sitting at a platform the train would still be occupying the previous block stopping any following movement untill the block had been cleared.
Platforms 1 to 4 at Central would need a total rebuild to gain enough length for a seven car train at say platform 4 to allow a following train into platform 3.
End result is that the overall costs would be greater than to construct the CRR and buy additional rollingstock.

Might I suggest rtt that if you want foam you buy shaving cream instead of insulting the inteligence of those on this site who either have some practical or relative knowkedge on the subject and think through he ramifications of their espousals before foaming off.   

[#Metro]

Might I suggest rtt that if you want foam you buy shaving cream instead of insulting the inteligence of those on this site who either have some practical or relative knowkedge on the subject and think through he ramifications of their espousals before foaming off.   Thumb down

I think it is legitimate to discuss. Let RAIL BOT never become a silo.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Don't throw away the idea of 7 car trains just yet

[ozbob]

I think 8 cars is a better bet, that way easier to line up with a carriage hanging over each end of the platform ...

I hope double-decker trains comes back onto the agenda as well.  That is always a great rollicking debate as well.

And then the mono-railers will re-appear to change the world.  Exciting times ahead ...

Last election, the LNP would have won if they had gone into the election with a proper fare structure for public transport IMHO. It was that close, and a sane public transport policy would have got them over the line.  It was a lot closer than many realise.

[somebody]

All they really needed to say last election re: PT was that they would get rid of 3 car trains.  Perhaps Mon-Fri.

[Jonas Jade]

Or off peak high frequency rail 

[mufreight]

Might I suggest rtt that if you want foam you buy shaving cream instead of insulting the inteligence of those on this site who either have some practical or relative knowkedge on the subject and think through he ramifications of their espousals before foaming off.   Thumb down

I think it is legitimate to discuss. Let RAIL BOT never become a silo.

It has been discussed and costed and simply did not weigh up so it was relegated to the foam and B/Sh*t file.  While inteligent discussion is more than welcome B/Sh*t and foam is not as it destroys the credibility of RBoT as a group.

[#Metro]

It has been discussed and costed and simply did not weigh up so it was relegated to the foam and B/Sh*t file.  While inteligent discussion is more than welcome B/Sh*t and foam is not as it destroys the credibility of RBoT as a group.

This is a proposal that seemed plausible until further discussion. Without the discussion it would not have been possible to pick the flaws within it.
I maintain that the discussion was entirely appropriate and legitimate to discuss.

The only people who seemed to have lost credibility is Cr Quirk, The Company GHD, The Council of Mayors for SEQ and the Mayor of Redlands.

[O_128]

It has been discussed and costed and simply did not weigh up so it was relegated to the foam and B/Sh*t file.  While inteligent discussion is more than welcome B/Sh*t and foam is not as it destroys the credibility of RBoT as a group.

This is a proposal that seemed plausible until further discussion. Without the discussion it would not have been possible to pick the flaws within it.
I maintain that the discussion was entirely appropriate and legitimate to discuss.

The only people who seemed to have lost credibility is Cr Quirk, The Company GHD, The Council of Mayors for SEQ and the Mayor of Redlands.

Totatlly agree TT me and my planner friends had the same view as well.


Out of curiosity what would people think of a merivale duplication then tunnel under roma street and connect to the exhibition line?