Cross River Rail Project

[Mr X]

I'd say Albert St would be a far better CBD station than Central, if anything Cleveland commuters would be demanding a special tunnel so their trains can use Albert St haha 

[somebody]

Slightly off topic but I had a horrible thought, If CRR goes through in its current form our next challenge will be to stop a band of people wanting gold coast and beenleigh trains to run through central as they don't want to walk or transfer. Last thing we need are the same lines running through different routes. Like our Bus system.

Tell them to change at Roma St.

Those heading to South bank will need to change at Park Rd.

[mufreight]

Slightly off topic but I had a horrible thought, If CRR goes through in its current form our next challenge will be to stop a band of people wanting gold coast and beenleigh trains to run through central as they don't want to walk or transfer. Last thing we need are the same lines running through different routes. Like our Bus system.

Tell them to change at Roma St.

Those heading to South bank will need to change at Park Rd.

Or change at Wooloongabba and complete their journey on bertie bus.

[O_128]

Slightly off topic but I had a horrible thought, If CRR goes through in its current form our next challenge will be to stop a band of people wanting gold coast and beenleigh trains to run through central as they don't want to walk or transfer. Last thing we need are the same lines running through different routes. Like our Bus system.

Tell them to change at Roma St.

Those heading to South bank will need to change at Park Rd.

Or change at Wooloongabba and complete their journey on bertie bus.

Id like to think these are all good suggestions but seeing as the 250 still serves the gabba (not for much longer) and the stupid amount of rocket buses I really hope QR and TL put there feet down.

[Gazza]

Now that you look at it, the possibility of giving Cleveland and FG a metro style service is not even possible without removing level crossings.
A 14 tph peak to match current capacity would already make the level crossings hell, so even doing it on the cheap, with a Stadtbahn style system is not really practical.

What matters is the hourly capacity carried cross river each direction by each option.
Assume 1000 pax on heavy rail or 600 on LRT per train

Merivale + Cleveland Stadtbahn @ 14 tph
29,400

Merivale + Cleveland Metro @ 30tph
39,000

Merivale + CRR
45,000

Merivale + CRR, with CRR full using 9 car trains.
57,000

[HappyTrainGuy]

I'd love to see a metro on the Caboolture line. The Geebung level crossing would be a bloody nightmare! 

[somebody]

The Alderley LX would be a particular problem with increased traffic on the FG line.  You can't easily route around that one, unless you class Wardell St as "easy".

[#Metro]

Now that you look at it, the possibility of giving Cleveland and FG a metro style service is not even possible without removing level crossings.
A 14 tph peak to match current capacity would already make the level crossings hell, so even doing it on the cheap, with a Stadtbahn style system is not really practical.

There is only one other option - Melbourne trams run at high frequency in Class B ROW.
If you gave priority to traffic (cars) at crossings then the ROW would be downgraded from Class A to Class B.

At that point services would stop at level crossings to allow cars to cross. This would mean bunching of services would happen and of course reduction in capacity.
It would not be light metro either (metro, is by definition, a Class A ROW concept), it would just be plain Light Rail in Class B ROW. Signalling would be removed and
people would have to manually operate the services (like on LRT or busways).

It would also mean that the in-vehicle travel time would blow out significantly making journeys to Cleveland slower and longer (however that would be somewhat counteracted by higher frequency services eating up waiting time). Importantly, unless there were modifications to stations, express services would also not be possible (or would be very restrictive) during peak hour, unless further reductions in frequency (and thus capacity) were to occur.

[Jonas Jade]

you could also "rephase" the level crossings so they have quicker timings like traffic lights but still give absolute priority to rail vehicles.

That combined with select grade separations and some streets permanently closing over the tracks could work.

Still won't match CRR's capacity across the river outlined by Gazza.

[Gazza]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

A graph that illustrates the absolute capacity, hence why speaking in terms of relative capacity is pointless.

Cleveland, run as a full grade sepped metro run at saturation, would still have a capacity slightly under that of the Merivale...18000 versus 21000.

I'm sure people out there would have a wonderful time with a train every 2 mins, but it would be a situation where roughly half of the inner city capacity is only usable by then, and the other half has to be shared 3 ways between GC, Beenleigh and Flagstone.
With Flagstone, the DMU shuttle is a good start, but a trainload of them then has to fit onto the GC or Beenleigh trains.

[Mr X]

Do we even need 30tph to suburbs like Ormiston, Cleveland etc.? Seems a bit excessive IMHO.

That graph shows what we all know- CRR is the best solution and any alternative that doesn't provide the same capacity benefits is daft. What's the difference between a metro and the Stadtbahn?

[Jonas Jade]

The metro would be fully grade separated at level crossings and the Stadtbahn/premetro isn't. (hence lower capacity).

And yes 3 minute frequencies, even light rail, at Ormiston etc would be very excessive.

[Gazza]

Do we even need 30tph to suburbs like Ormiston, Cleveland etc.? Seems a bit excessive IMHO.

That graph shows what we all know- CRR is the best solution and any alternative that doesn't provide the same capacity benefits is daft. What's the difference between a metro and the Stadtbahn?

Not to Ormiston, no, but consider the pressure at Gabba etc, or people changing trains to use the inner section at Boggo Rd.

[#Metro]

With Flagstone, the DMU shuttle is a good start, but a trainload of them then has to fit onto the GC or Beenleigh trains.

This isn't impossible though, provided the frequency is high on all ends - for example, Toronto's Sheppard subway is configured this way and it dumps its passengers into
the Yonge University Spadina Line (at Sheppard-Yonge). Similarly the TTC 'RT' light metro does the same as well (at Kennedy).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TTCsubwayRTmap-2007.svg

[O_128]

Do we even need 30tph to suburbs like Ormiston, Cleveland etc.? Seems a bit excessive IMHO.

That graph shows what we all know- CRR is the best solution and any alternative that doesn't provide the same capacity benefits is daft. What's the difference between a metro and the Stadtbahn?

Not to Ormiston, no, but consider the pressure at Gabba etc, or people changing trains to use the inner section at Boggo Rd.

If built morningside inwards would densify, you may also get lots of people transferring at buranda so as not to sit in traffic for an hour.

[Gazza]

This isn't impossible though, provided the frequency is high on all ends - for example, Toronto's Sheppard subway is configured this way and it dumps its passengers into
the Yonge University Spadina Line (at Sheppard-Yonge). Similarly the TTC 'RT' light metro does the same as well (at Kennedy).

In that example, the point passengers change trains is right at the end of the line, where trains would be empty.

GC Trains tend to fill up by Beenleigh right?
It just might not be practical if say 600 people on a train from Flagstone have to fit onto a train which might already have that many on there.

[SurfRail]

GC Trains tend to fill up by Beenleigh right? It just might not be practical if say 600 people on a train from Flagstone have to fit onto a train which might already have that many on there.

Which is exactly why Helensvale eventually makes perfect sense from a network perspective as the terminus between an all stations Coolangatta to Helensvale then express service, and an all stations Helensvale to Loganlea then express service.  Trains are already getting very squeezy at Helensvale, so if the RTS ends up being extended all the way more capacity will be needed on the QR service.

[#Metro]

GC Trains tend to fill up by Beenleigh right?
It just might not be practical if say 600 people on a train from Flagstone have to fit onto a train which might already have that many on there.

It depends. What is the pphd we are getting from flagstone? GC trains may well fill up, but if they are frequent (5-10 minutes) then I don't see why not. Services every 5 minutes - not kidding - Joondalup and Mandurah do 5 min headways in peak.

On the other hand I was thinking about what the train patterns would be with CRR in place.

1. All Beenleigh trains use CRR tunnel and run express from Yeerongpilly to Coopers Plains.
2. All Gold Coast trains use CRR tunnel and run express from Yeerongpilly to wherever on the Gold Coast
3. A new service would be created - Ferny Grove to Flagstone, stopping at all stations to Flagstone, including Yeerongpilly, Moorooka, Rocklea (unless it is DELETED! *CUT* this station!!), Salisbury, and then whatever stations to Flagstone.

I think this is important to gain speed on the beenleigh line. By using CRR, Beenleigh trains no longer have to stop at Roma Street, South Brisbane, South Bank, Park Road, Dutton Park, Fairfield, Yeronga, Moorooka, Rocklea, blah blah, - that is a MASSIVE TIME SAVING for beenleigh line commuters and actually makes it attractive to interchange with rail in those outer suburbs.

Let the flagstone train pick up the pax at Yeronga, Fairfield etc.

[#Metro]

Gold Coast trains are crowded because the service is not frequent.

Services run every 15 minutes to the CBD. That's not good enough. Services should be running every 5 minutes in peak hour from the Gold Coast (triple the frequency now) and every 15 minutes in the off peak (double frequency of what we have now).

I know this level of frequency sounds outrageous, but Brisbane people have normalized terrible service frequency. Joondalup and Mandruah lines run every 5 minutes in peak hours, and 15 minutes at other times, and they have so many pax they want to expand that service.

[Jonas Jade]

I think this is important to gain speed on the beenleigh line. By using CRR, Beenleigh trains no longer have to stop at Roma Street, South Brisbane, South Bank, Park Road, Dutton Park, Fairfield, Yeronga, Moorooka, Rocklea, blah blah, - that is a MASSIVE TIME SAVING for beenleigh line commuters and actually makes it attractive to interchange with rail in those outer suburbs.

Let the flagstone train pick up the pax at Yeronga, Fairfield etc.

I think this is a very important point. If you slash that time there and make it attractive and fast to change at Altandi, for example, and then the Mains Rd buses can empty a lot of pax change, and then can load up another set of pax again to head to the busway(metro? ). (although a lot of their patronage can be taken up by Flagstone services as well).

[HappyTrainGuy]

Gold Coast trains are crowded because the service is not frequent.

Sorry, but baloney. The Gold Coast trains never fill up outside of peak. There are always seats available. The major problem that line has out of peak are the people that refuse to sit next to other passengers, don't move down the carriage and asile seat hogs. The only 'filling' that occurs are on inbound trains when all the people from Beenleigh and surrounds say hello.  And even then there are still seats available as passengers frequently get off at Beenleigh.

ALL ABOARD THE BOMBAY EXPRESS!

[#Metro]

Sorry, but baloney

Disagree. I was referring specifically to peak hour.
I have caught that train too...

[HappyTrainGuy]

Peak hour is meant to be crowded otherwise your doing it wrong 

[#Metro]

Peak hour is meant to be crowded otherwise your doing it wrong  Tongue

Services to the Gold Coast during peak hour are not adequate. Perth runs WAY more frequently during peak
and off peak on lines that are operationally directly comparable.

By your 'full train is good' logic we would not need CRR!!

[Golliwog]

Peak hour is meant to be crowded otherwise your doing it wrong 

Exactly. One of the key things they always stressed in our transport courses at UQ (or tried to anyway) was to 'sweat' the corridor. No busy corridor should ever be upgraded with the goal of providing every user with a seat or two, it is a waste of resources!

TT, don't put words in HTG's mouth. CRR is justified in that the peak hour services on all 3 southern lines are becoming crowded to the point where you cannot physically add trains to reduce (not eliminate) standing passengers.

[Arnz]

Most of the standees on the Gold Coast Line are actually Beenleigh and (in some trains) Loganlea passengers. There are some GC trains which are fully seated capacity (as was stated in the report as 4/9 and 5/9), but not to the extent of overcrowding.  

Having said that, the same can be said Petrie to Caboolture standees crowding the 'slow 9 skip stops express' Nambour trains in peak which were counted as 2/7 in the Patronage report as 90% standing capacity (This stat included Caboolture, and is not the Sunshine Coast only stat).  Other Nambour/Gympie peak trains (with 13 skipped stops and in the case of Gympie, 20 skipped stops) has a less than 90% standing load to Caboolture.

Besides the last Patronage data report had "0" GC trains at 100%+ standing capacity.  Only one inbound train from the GC had 90% standing capacity.  A good case for the GC trains to call in at more stops during the peak to fill it up and give Beenleigh commuters more options.  At the same time, a increase of GC trains would be helpful, provided they call in at more stops along the Beenleigh line to maximise track capacity.

[#Metro]

Exactly. One of the key things they always stressed in our transport courses at UQ (or tried to anyway) was to 'sweat' the corridor. No busy corridor should ever be upgraded with the goal of providing every user with a seat or two, it is a waste of resources!

TT, don't put words in HTG's mouth. CRR is justified in that the peak hour services on all 3 southern lines are becoming crowded to the point where you cannot physically add trains to reduce (not eliminate) standing passengers.

I absolutely and totally do not agree.

The Gold Coast line needs more services during peak hour, and they should run every 5 minutes, if not 10 minutes.
That's probably only possible with CRR, but nevertheless.

The current services are not adequate. If more services were added, that would cut the waiting time, it would be more convenient and more pax would use it.

[Arnz]

Like some people said, shouldn't people be "discouraging" people from travelling long distances for work reasons.   Development may be happening in parts of the coasts (eg the Kawana Town Centre, Coomera, Caloundra South, etc) which may provide jobs, but currently the jobs are either up north or down south (depending on which coast you reside).

I can't recall how many times this line was bleated to Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast commuters when it comes to newspaper articles.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Bull, there isn't even that much of a demand to even warrant a Gold Coast train every 10 minutes. Show us one shred of evidence that trains aren't adequate and are at that point where services need to be ramped up.

By your 'full train is good' logic we would not need CRR!!

Damn right haha nah, in all seriousness. There's full train logic and there's also can't run anymore services because they buggered the innercity network.

In the short term CRR is not actually important to improve capacity as timetable modifications and 3 to 6 car upgrades is enough to increase capacity in the short term however there will be a point in time where extra services or even network expansion can't be squeezed in. Hopefully CRR will be operational before we get to that stage.

[Golliwog]

I could support ever 5 minutes to the GC if they stopped ALL stations. Otherwise, I respectfully disagree with you TT.

-------------------------------------------------

Also, people, get your friends and family to support the  CRR question over at http://oursay.org/the-queensland-agenda/sort:votes/dir:desc#the_questions

Currently, the question is 4th with 90 votes being beaten by Sand mining (94), fluoridation (116), and daylight savings (348). 4th means it won't be answered.

[#Metro]

Bull, there isn't even that much of a demand to even warrant a Gold Coast train every 10 minutes. Show us one shred of evidence that trains aren't adequate and are at that point where services need to be ramped up.

Disagree. There is more than enough demand. Many people travel to the busway at 8 Mile Plains and get a bus, others take the M1.

Put more trains on and they will fill.
Just go look at a Perth timetable, your evidence is right there - services every 5-10 minutes.

Helensvale tends to be the station at which huge numbers get on, usually sardine conditions from there on.

[#Metro]

Mandurah


5:05 AM
5:31 AM      
5:51 AM
     
6:01 AM      
6:11 AM      
6:21 AM      
6:26 AM      Service every ~ 10 minutes
6:31 AM
6:43 AM           
6:53 AM      
6:59 AM      

7:03 AM           
7:13 AM   
7:23 AM   Service every ~ 10 minutes   
7:33 AM           
7:43 AM           
7:53 AM

[Stillwater]

Oh dear

[HappyTrainGuy]

Show this demand??? If a train can't be overcrowded in peak hour there is no additional demand. Its like saying Buz the 314. They will fill, trust me, they will fill the 314 if it was buzed.

[Arnz]

Bull, there isn't even that much of a demand to even warrant a Gold Coast train every 10 minutes. Show us one shred of evidence that trains aren't adequate and are at that point where services need to be ramped up.

Disagree. There is more than enough demand. Many people travel to the busway at 8 Mile Plains and get a bus, others take the M1.

Put more trains on and they will fill.

Provided Gold Coast trains stop all stations from Varsity Lakes to Kuraby, then express from Kuraby to South Bank (using the DG track) to maximise track capacity for both Beenleigh and Gold Coast commuters, with all-stoppers starting from Kuraby, I'll support.  Otherwise I disagree with you if you suggest keeping the current express pattern.  The expresses eat up train paths for Beenleigh-Kuraby commuters.

Most of the GC trains standees are from Beenleigh and Loganlea, and there's a case for GC trains to stop at more stops alongside the Beenleigh line in regards to the limited track capacity south of Kuraby.  Some Gold Coast commuters may not be happy with the increase of stops, but it's the most reliable way in this pre-CRR world to increase services for both Kuraby-Beenleigh and Ormeau-Varsity Lakes without stuffing up the Beenleigh timetable.

[Arnz]

Show this demand??? If a train can't be overcrowded in peak hour there is no additional demand. Its like saying Buz the 314. They will fill, trust me, they will fill the 314 if it was buzed.

Or just like demanding that Gympie North has services every 10 mins on current infrastructure.   

[Mr X]

Mandurah


5:05 AM
5:31 AM      
5:51 AM
     
6:01 AM      
6:11 AM      
6:21 AM      
6:26 AM      Service every ~ 10 minutes
6:31 AM
6:43 AM           
6:53 AM      
6:59 AM      

7:03 AM           
7:13 AM   
7:23 AM   Service every ~ 10 minutes   
7:33 AM           
7:43 AM           
7:53 AM

^^ Foam alert!!
You don't need a train to the Gold Coast every 10mins
The BUZ success cannot be applied to every route

[#Metro]

Perth does it. Brisbane calls it foam

different worlds entirely...

[petey3801]

Helensvale tends to be the station at which huge numbers get on, usually sardine conditions from there on.

Sorry, but what a load of bollocks. Stop exaggerationg everything to try to prove your point. Prove your point with facts, not this sort of BS that would normally be found in the CM.

In principal, I do agree that the GC could use a few more services during peak.. Not sure if it's to the point of 6tph just yet, but as others have said, if they stopped all stations BNH-KRY, it would most likely be worth it. 5-min frequencies on the Gold Coast simply cannot be done on current infrastructure and signalling. The signalling between Beenleigh and Ormeau plus the single line Coomera to Helensvale simply will not take 5min frequencies.

[#Metro]

Sorry, but what a load of bollocks. Stop exaggerationg everything to try to prove your point. Prove your point with facts, not this sort of BS that would normally be found in the CM.

Nonsense, Perth already runs trains at higher frequencies on comparable lines. Not only that but Helensvale has the most boardings in the AM Peak as per the tracker, Q3, 2011. And not surprisingly since it is an interchange station with buses to Southport.

Varsity Lakes 500
Robina 684
Nerang 740
Helensvale 968
Coomera 502
Ormeau 224

Beenleigh/Loganlea/etc - not in report for GC trains

In principal, I do agree that the GC could use a few more services during peak.. Not sure if it's to the point of 6tph just yet, but as others have said, if they stopped all stations BNH-KRY, it would most likely be worth it. 5-min frequencies on the Gold Coast simply cannot be done on current infrastructure and signalling. The signalling between Beenleigh and Ormeau plus the single line Coomera to Helensvale simply will not take 5min frequencies.

Adding new services would take the frequency from 15 minutes to 12 to 10 to allow even headways. I understand that on current infrastructure high frequency is not possible, but I never suggested that QR do the impossible. Cross River Rail will be needed of course.

One of the reasons why CRR is being built is because there will be growth on this and the beenleigh line.

I suggest anyone who disagrees catch a morning service arriving in the CBD between 8-9 am. Are there people sitting on the floor/standing in the doorways?