On the Buses

[aldonius]

Caught the new 28 today (briefly, from Langlands Park to Buranda).

While I didn't see one terminate, I did see it start. This particular bus was coming from Old Cleveland Rd. What it did was turn onto Main Ave and then Panitya St, and laid over for just a couple of minutes in the bus spaces in the swimming pool carpark.
So I suspect the terminating services will do something similar.

Also updated busway network maps. Note the combination of services by route characteristics.

[achiruel]

Any chance you could share some higher-res photos?

[SurfRail]

^ Unsurprisingly the website hasn't been updated so you can just look at the PDFs...

[aldonius]

The phtos are pretty bad quality anyway what with the reflections and all. We can prompt TL for PDFs tomorrow morning 

[Cazza]

First, some good news. They are finally condensing the stops just 80m apart in Aspley: https://translink.com.au/service-updates/243066
https://bit.ly/33QUG88. I may have to go up and do a memorial "1 stop trip" before they merge. I do think they would have been better off closing the "yellow pole" stop and retaining the 340 stop as it's closer to the pedestrian crossing to Aspley shops, already has shelter from the elements (being a shop awning) and is in a (generally) more central location (equal walk from both Windrest Ave/Robinson Rd).

Now, just some house keeping work. The Bridge to Brisbane service notice has gone up for this weekend (https://translink.com.au/plan-your-journey/event-transport/11766). Just browsing over the additional services tab and I've noticed a few things:
-Route 4 is supposed to be the 222 equivalent, except running over the CCB instead of through South Bank and Victoria Bridge. However, the route map and TT says it runs via South Bank. So I'm not sure what the go is there. Also, it's a bit confusing saying "all 222 stops to W'gabba", as the 222 doesn't go to W'gabba. Saying all 222 stops to Buranda, with an additional stop at W'gabba probably would have been clearer.
-In the after the races tab, the Route 4 back to Carindale is described as the 111 and Route 9 to 8MP as the 222, so they might need to fix that.
It is good however, that they have timetabled these added services, not just given a rough frequency and span of operating times.

In other observations, some Toowong buses are having 2 ads stuck to the drivers side of the bus, not just the small single one like normal (not sure about other bus types on the network apart from the retiring Scania's that may have 3?).

Also, does anyone know how many of the new Optimus' will be rolled out in this batch? I remember in the Council's budget them saying something like 60 or 75 standard equivalent buses this next financial year I believe. The newest I've seen so far is T2858. It would also be nice if we could finally get some bendies on the northside. I know myself and many others have touched on it many times before but is there really anything stopping them run out of Eagle Farm or Virginia depots (apart from depot capacity which I believe could be one of the issues). Down in Sydney, bendies are very common (I believe all State Transit + Inner West TS depots have them except North Sydney and Burwood). So what's the hesitation here?

Anyway, that's my nitpick for the day.

[SurfRail]

Maybe we should stop funding BCC replacing buses so quickly when (in around 20-30 bus retirements from now) the oldest bus in the fleet will be from 2005 and there are so many other vehicles older than that out on the road elsewhere. 

BCC doesn't really fund it's own capital replacements IIRC, it ultimately comes from the State and the vehicles are held by QTC as the lessor.  Happy to be corrected.

[Cazza]

^ Unsurprisingly the website hasn't been updated so you can just look at the PDFs...

Now updated for all 3 busways.

[Golliwog]

^ Unsurprisingly the website hasn't been updated so you can just look at the PDFs...

Now updated for all 3 busways.

What about the P332 though? Or are they trying to forget that stupidity?

[Cazza]

They don't put peak buses in. Have fun trying to show every single southside peak rocket funnelling though the Woolloongabba junction

[Golliwog]

They don't put peak buses in. Have fun trying to show every single southside peak rocket funnelling though the Woolloongabba junction

Haha they could probably do that with another grouped line for Captain Cook bridge routes.

That said, I was mostly joking - but would be funny to have them try to show it

[City Designer]

First, some good news. They are finally condensing the stops just 80m apart in Aspley: https://translink.com.au/service-updates/243066
https://bit.ly/33QUG88. I may have to go up and do a memorial "1 stop trip" before they merge.

The two stops had different services (all stops to the north, express to the south), so no route service does an 80 metre trip.

[HappyTrainGuy]

First, some good news. They are finally condensing the stops just 80m apart in Aspley: https://translink.com.au/service-updates/243066
https://bit.ly/33QUG88. I may have to go up and do a memorial "1 stop trip" before they merge.

The two stops had different services (all stops to the north, express to the south), so no route service does an 80 metre trip.

Meanwhile all northbound routes used the one stop.

[City Designer]

That would be because they do not have to cross 3 lanes of traffic to turn right 200 metres ahead.

Having two stops 80 metres apart performing different services is a non-point.

Another example is at Newmarket where the 325 does an immediate right turn so does not service the outbound express stop.

[HappyTrainGuy]

That doesn't explain why the 680 that follows the same route as the 340 has to use the same stop as the 337. From what i've heard the stopes are being merged because the 340 stop is not daa compliant.

[City Designer]

The 680 does not stop there. Merging to the northern stop makes sense because the site is less constrained and maintains the right turn for the 337 and 346.

[verbatim9]

Even with the 402 There are still heaps of people waiting at Benson Street Toowong stop 14. The best solution is to upgrade every second 412 running as an articulated 3 door bus. This will prevent over crowding and delays with the 412. Just after I took the pic a nearly full 412 was arriving from the city.

If Chancellor place needs a bit of upgrades to allow the turnaround of articulated buses, then so be it. The Uni should be able to contribute to upgrades there

Pic taken @ 1330 today

[Cazza]

I would much rather see funds put towards either further boosting the 402 frequency or putting bendies on it rather than on the 412. Check out the data of passenger movements on the 412 at the bottom of the page that Henrus has put together (not sure if he still hangs around but another massive thank you nonetheless for the work he has done): https://seqtransit.henrus1.com/origin-destination

50% of the outbound trips were between Toowong and St Lucia, with over 30% of all outbound trips taken are between Toowong and UQ Only. And this is patronage for the 412 only, not including the 402.

As the 402 has recently been upgraded to run every 10 mins during the day (to combine with the 412 to provide services every 5 mins between Toowong and UQ), I think the best step is to put bendies on the 402 over the 412. The 412 then runs down the completely over saturated, unreliable mess known as Corro Dr. Judging by patronage and passing observations, most of these buses have 10-15 people on them at most at off-peak. With a majority of people travelling between T'wong and UQ, I don't see the need to be wasting anymore resources on trips that can be done cheaper, quicker and more efficiently on the 402.

[verbatim9]

I would much rather see funds put towards either further boosting the 402 frequency or putting bendies on it rather than on the 412. Check out the data of passenger movements on the 412 at the bottom of the page that Henrus has put together (not sure if he still hangs around but another massive thank you nonetheless for the work he has done): https://seqtransit.henrus1.com/origin-destination

50% of the outbound trips were between Toowong and St Lucia, with over 30% of all outbound trips taken are between Toowong and UQ Only. And this is patronage for the 412 only, not including the 402.

As the 402 has recently been upgraded to run every 10 mins during the day (to combine with the 412 to provide services every 5 mins between Toowong and UQ), I think the best step is to put bendies on the 402 over the 412. The 412 then runs down the completely over saturated, unreliable mess known as Corro Dr. Judging by patronage and passing observations, most of these buses have 10-15 people on them at most at off-peak. With a majority of people travelling between T'wong and UQ, I don't see the need to be wasting anymore resources on trips that can be done cheaper, quicker and more efficiently on the 402.

The current situation with more frequent 412's and 402 for so called sweeps is not efficient at all. An articulated vehicle with one driver is far more efficient than running more 402 services just to sweep up excess passengers. (Fuel and drivers  etc.....) Plus I have noticed due to over crowding leading to slow boarding and disembarking. The 412's bunch up giving an inadequate service along Coronation drive.  On most days four 412's arrive at the same time at stop 3 Boomerang street. Then there is a 15 min peak unacceptable gap. Very inadequate and poor service. An articulated bus can sweep up excess waiting passengers faster than an ordinary bus, as well as retain on time performance ensuring proper peak hour schedule of every 5 mins at key stops along Coronation drive. P.s.The key stops are not over saturated on Coronation drive. The 412 415 445 and 433 are the main buses that service all stops along Coronation drive.  The other services only stop at the Regatta, Wesley hospital and stop 3/4 at Cribb street.

Plus the 15 people waiting at Benson Street adds up when a nearly full bus approaches and continues along  Sir Fred Schonell Drive.

[Cazza]

First off, the 412 runs limited stops down Corro Dr.

Secondly, the reliability of the 412 is literally the point I'm trying to make. I can guarantee you, 9 times out of 10, a 412 will be delayed down Corro Dr due to traffic rather than boarding times. A bendy is unlikely to do anything but make up about 15 seconds at the 3 or 4 stops along Corro Dr, if that.

Also, I don't see how you can say that it is more efficient to run a 412 than a 402. On the current timetable, just 2 buses and 2 drivers are required to cover the 402 running every 10 mins all day. But on the 412, it takes a minimum of 7 buses and drivers to run the 412 at 10 min intervals.

If you didn't read the part on the passenger movements in my previous post, around 50% of the total trips are between Toowong and UQ. That means that the other 50% is anywhere between the City and UQ/St Lucia. As shown by the table provided by Henrus, most of this patronage boards and alights along the Corro Dr section, which will still be serviced by the multitude of other services, as well as the 6bph that the 412 will still operate at.

What I'm trying to say here is that running a high frequency shuttle (which the 402 is) with bendies buses is a much better option than the 412 with bendies due to the lower amount of resources needed to provide a much more efficient and beneficial solution to both TfB and commuters. There is no need to be having bendies carry air along the over saturated Corronation Dr (with 27 BPH Off-Peak- you can't say that isn't a waste of resources) when they can be run more often, down the busier part of the route.

[aldonius]

On most 412's I've caught, half the bus gets off at Toowong. The origin-destination data backs this up.

What's more, on September 2018 figures the 402 accounts for less than a quarter of the passengers from UQ to Toowong on an origin/destination basis. As far as I'm concerned TL/BT/UQ absolutely should be working to increase that proportion, because the more the 402 takes, the less the 412 needs to do along that stretch.

Alternate style visualisations for inbound and outbound 412s.

[Gazza]

Have 402 and 412 but run the same stopping pattern.
People used to avoid the 402 Because its "slower" with extra stops.

[Cazza]

The "Yellow Stops" along SFSD were removed a few years ago Gazza so the 402/12 run the same stopping pattern now (except for the few stops along Gailey and Carmody Rds that could easily be removed too)

[James]

The current situation with more frequent 412's and 402 for so called sweeps is not efficient at all. An articulated vehicle with one driver is far more efficient than running more 402 services just to sweep up excess passengers. (Fuel and drivers  etc.....) Plus I have noticed due to over crowding leading to slow boarding and disembarking. The 412's bunch up giving an inadequate service along Coronation drive.  On most days four 412's arrive at the same time at stop 3 Boomerang street. Then there is a 15 min peak unacceptable gap. Very inadequate and poor service. An articulated bus can sweep up excess waiting passengers faster than an ordinary bus, as well as retain on time performance ensuring proper peak hour schedule of every 5 mins at key stops along Coronation drive. P.s.The key stops are not over saturated on Coronation drive. The 412 415 445 and 433 are the main buses that service all stops along Coronation drive.  The other services only stop at the Regatta, Wesley hospital and stop 3/4 at Cribb street.

Plus the 15 people waiting at Benson Street adds up when a nearly full bus approaches and continues along  Sir Fred Schonell Drive.

Why don't we make the 402 the articulated sweeper bus then? It would mean the capacity is concentrated where it needs to be (Toowong - UQ) and not where it doesn't need to be (along the 27bph Coro Drive bus conga line).

The 412 also doesn't serve the yellow stops down Coro Drive - only the 411, 415, 417, 433 and 445 do. Even if this was an issue - outbound it makes barely any difference, as the Regatta is the only yellow stop outbound between the CBD and Toowong. If mobility is such a problem - the 411 does offer an all-stops, relatively uncrowded trip home.

I imagine the reason for having four 412s in quick succession would be the heavy traffic affecting the 412 in both directions. Traffic going down Coro Dr in the AM peak is reliably heavy - there tends not to be too much variation unless there's a traffic incident or it rains. On the flip side, PM peak reliability is terrible - many days it all runs smoothly, but some days (especially during rain) the whole network collapses and you end up with the situation described there. This impact is accentuated by many 4XX inbound AM peak runs coming out as 412 outbound runs, and 412 inbound runs generally forming 412 outbound runs in the PM peak.

Finally - and I'll add this as a footnote - articulated vehicles can't currently run Route 412 for a number of reasons. The saw-tooth stops at Chancellors Place aren't long enough, the roundabouts at St Lucia South are too small (& possibly at other locations too), and a number of the Coro Drive stops are too small - one 18m bus would struggle to fit in and create problems for a second bus coming in behind it. The stop already struggles with 2x 12.5m buses.

[verbatim9]

The current situation with more frequent 412's and 402 for so called sweeps is not efficient at all. An articulated vehicle with one driver is far more efficient than running more 402 services just to sweep up excess passengers. (Fuel and drivers  etc.....) Plus I have noticed due to over crowding leading to slow boarding and disembarking. The 412's bunch up giving an inadequate service along Coronation drive.  On most days four 412's arrive at the same time at stop 3 Boomerang street. Then there is a 15 min peak unacceptable gap. Very inadequate and poor service. An articulated bus can sweep up excess waiting passengers faster than an ordinary bus, as well as retain on time performance ensuring proper peak hour schedule of every 5 mins at key stops along Coronation drive. P.s.The key stops are not over saturated on Coronation drive. The 412 415 445 and 433 are the main buses that service all stops along Coronation drive.  The other services only stop at the Regatta, Wesley hospital and stop 3/4 at Cribb street.

Plus the 15 people waiting at Benson Street adds up when a nearly full bus approaches and continues along  Sir Fred Schonell Drive.

Why don't we make the 402 the articulated sweeper bus then? It would mean the capacity is concentrated where it needs to be (Toowong - UQ) and not where it doesn't need to be (along the 27bph Coro Drive bus conga line).

The 412 also doesn't serve the yellow stops down Coro Drive - only the 411, 415, 417, 433 and 445 do. Even if this was an issue - outbound it makes barely any difference, as the Regatta is the only yellow stop outbound between the CBD and Toowong. If mobility is such a problem - the 411 does offer an all-stops, relatively uncrowded trip home.

I imagine the reason for having four 412s in quick succession would be the heavy traffic affecting the 412 in both directions. Traffic going down Coro Dr in the AM peak is reliably heavy - there tends not to be too much variation unless there's a traffic incident or it rains. On the flip side, PM peak reliability is terrible - many days it all runs smoothly, but some days (especially during rain) the whole network collapses and you end up with the situation described there. This impact is accentuated by many 4XX inbound AM peak runs coming out as 412 outbound runs, and 412 inbound runs generally forming 412 outbound runs in the PM peak.

Finally - and I'll add this as a footnote - articulated vehicles can't currently run Route 412 for a number of reasons. The saw-tooth stops at Chancellors Place aren't long enough, the roundabouts at St Lucia South are too small (& possibly at other locations too), and a number of the Coro Drive stops are too small - one 18m bus would struggle to fit in and create problems for a second bus coming in behind it. The stop already struggles with 2x 12.5m buses.

Chancellor Place needs upgrading anyway.  90 percent of the stops are compliant from the CBD to UQ and return. Articulated 412 services are  just not for the Uni students but for the comfort and on-time running for the general public. To encourage the general public to use a reliable service. Mum and dad are not going to hop on a packed Uni student bus willingly everyday. Nor wait long intervals along Coronation drive because the 412's have caught up with each and stop as a batch. 4 drivers 4 buses running together. What a joke! What a waste of money! I have also waited for buses at Benson Street outbound and the amount of times that 3 or 4 412 buses arrive as one batch is quite regular. The all get stuck enroute from UQ at stops from either people diembarking or trying to board.

I think of efficient effective transport as transporting masses at a cost effective price on a reliable fast service. Public transport is not about creating jobs either. It's about transporting people efficiently. I think this Government has it wrong. Let's just hire another Driver. They should be thinking let's look at longer buses where possible to achieve the best outcome for the commuter or potential one and the tax payer. Not all lines are suited for articulated buses. But the 412 and the 333  which are still running standard buses are definitely potential lines needing an upgrade to articulated vehicles.

[ozbob]

That's one for @brisbanecityqld who operate the buses

— Mark Bailey MP (@MarkBaileyMP) September 5, 2019

^

TransLink. You can give them feedback here > https://t.co/52p12GiuNy
TfB is the operator. TransLink do the scheduling and tasking.

— ozbob13 (@ozbob13) September 5, 2019

[Cazza]

Someone should let Marina know that it is probably because after 5pm is peak hour, meaning that is when most people are coming home from work or commuting in general. Of course there will be more people on the bus or more traffic on the road...

And if anything, the 120 is one of the routes least affected due to the high frequency (combining for every 5 mins with the P119) and that it runs on the busway for it's Inner City leg (not down Adelaide St or the CCB). Although, the Cultural Centre is a bottleneck at times, it's much better than buses using Corro Dr or other jam-packed corridors exposed to these lengthy delays.

[James]

That is just an incredibly sad state of affairs. Really shows the sort of blame shifting going on between BCC & State Government. Very difficult to achieve even the most basic of changes (like a timetable update) with this sort of garbage.

Someone should let Marina know that it is probably because after 5pm is peak hour, meaning that is when most people are coming home from work or commuting in general. Of course there will be more people on the bus or more traffic on the road...

And if anything, the 120 is one of the routes least affected due to the high frequency (combining for every 5 mins with the P119) and that it runs on the busway for it's Inner City leg (not down Adelaide St or the CCB). Although, the Cultural Centre is a bottleneck at times, it's much better than buses using Corro Dr or other jam-packed corridors exposed to these lengthy delays.

It would be appreciated if they at least adjusted the timetable to reflect the prevailing traffic conditions - there are a number of buses that consistently run late, and nothing is done about adjusting the timetable.

[Cazza]

I am aware of that and completely acknowledge the neglect that bus timetables are receiving. My daily bus is the 380, recorded just weeks ago as the worst in Brisbane for on time running. However, traffic delays are inevitable in pretty much every city, every day.

Just this afternoon around 5pm is was looking around on Anytrip and noted many 120s that were upwards of 3-7 mins late, but also just as many that were 3-5 mins early. It can be hard to predict traffic conditions to consistently get the timetables right. That is why people just have to accept that sometimes your bus may run late. Yes it's frustrating, but I can guarantee you 9,999 times out of 10,000, the driver can do nothing about running late.

[Cazza]

Just when I thought run sheets at TfB couldn't get any worse...

Did you know that the 8:25am inbound 373 that is scheduled to arrive at Edward St, Stop 143 at 8:50 is then scheduled to run the 8:41am outbound 373 departing from the same stop!

So not only do bus drivers have to time travel to start the outbound route on time, but the 8:25 inbound 373 runs a 444 beforehand, arriving at GOMA at 8:10 (giving just 15 mins to get from GOMA to Ashgrove which is a stretch even at the best of times, let alone smack bang in the middle of peak hour).

As we are well aware, Corro Dr can be an absolute sh!tshow, as displayed once again this morning. 7:40am inbound 433 departs Kenmore terminus on time, is 8 mins late by Indro then arrives at Wickham Tce at 9:04, a casual 21 mins late. From here, it departs on the 8:47 outbound 381 at 9:12, 25 mins late this time. As I've been observing over the past few weeks, this specific run is causing many issues like this very regularly.

If this isn't evidence that the bus network is broken, needs more bus priority down key corridors and we need people that aren't scheduling buses to run before they can even possibly get there, then I don't know what will.

Also, if anyone is wondering, I write this as I sit onboard at 10 min late outbound 380. Long live the worst bus in Brisbane!! (Excluding the 522, that's an Ipswich service )

[#Metro]

A lot of the buses that run down Coro drive don't need to travel all the way to the city.

[Paul B]

was 380 to be changed during the BCC non-review?
checking the timetable, it has periods where it runs half hourly inbound in the 2-3pm period, which the air parcel 321 also does.

[verbatim9]

A lot of the buses that run down Coro drive don't need to travel all the way to the city.

You would find that general vehicles create majority of the congestion along Coronation Drive not buses themselves.

[aldonius]

A lot of the buses that run down Coro drive don't need to travel all the way to the city.

You would find that general vehicles create majority of the congestion along Coronation Drive not buses themselves.

I believe Metro is suggesting they could be feederised.

[techblitz]

interesting ob....1.50pm outbound 110 25 -30  onboard leaving queen st......40+ leaving gabba......yet hourly frequency outbound at this time.......which proves that frequency is not the only golden egg to get people onto these bus routes.....there are other demographic and/ or functional factors....eg: in the 110`s case...going through low socionomic areas && two major trip generators at each end...

[SurfRail]

I don't see anything particularly significant about that.  You see decent loads on hourly services all over the shop, especially where they connect directly to the CBD.  If you were running it every 15 minutes that would be 10 passengers per bus with no increase, and even if it doubled patronage the resultant loadings still wouldn't be huge.  (If it was an Ipswich route I'd be shocked.)

[techblitz]

Well SR name some hourly brisbane routes then...don't just state something and not give examples......at least give some gold coast routes...
So which other Brisbane outbound hourly routes OFFPEAK that have that amount of people on them? Ive previously quoted on this forum the 125/124 pushing that on a sunday so that doesn't count.....name some others....
I cant imagine someone residing on the gold coast would be able to get too much of a look at brisbane routes along say ippy rd.. :conf :conf...

[AnonymouslyBad]

I don't see anything particularly significant about that.  You see decent loads on hourly services all over the shop, especially where they connect directly to the CBD.

Hmm, plenty of hourly routes do "okay", but the 110 corridor is definitely busy. It's as the route number suggests.
Personally I would've BUZzed it years ago - even at the 100's expense. I do get that it's a weird route, and BCC might be worried about an upgraded 110 eating all-stopper patronage for breakfast (which it would). With reform though it's a no brainer.

[achiruel]

The 110 is duplicated for much of its route (between the city and Learoyd Rd) by the 115. It's a pity they weren't even spaced at 30 minutes instead of 25/35, but the capacity is there.

It's duplicated even more between the City and Clifton Hill by the 100, and between the City and Moorvale by the 124, 125 and 117. There's plenty of service at most of the stops the 110 serves. The question is, what's such a big traffic generator between Inala Plaza and Learoyd Rd that deserves a HF service? The answer...nothing.

[techblitz]

AB...given the relative failures 172/113/112/117....the rest are pulling their weight relatively well....115 /124 can be a bit hot and cold depending on how late other routes run....but the 110/100/125 are definitely the core weight pullers.....all faring better vs many routes at similar frequency.......that particular 110 this afternoon was eye-catching given its frequency at that time of day.....and the fact that it would have picked up at least an extra 10 -15 between the PA hospital and inala plaza......definitely want to see more hourly routes with loadings like that 

If there was any changes I would currently like to see around this area it would be truncate the 117 at moorvale or rocklea stations....have it serve as the main feeder to acacia ridge tafe.....
Also keep the 115/110 arrangement 7 days but with better spacing as achruel has highlighted......might as well create a weekend link between acacia ridge & sunnybank hills / browns plains corridor for the ones who cannot drive.....not everyone wants to shop at the very crowded and getting more dangerous inala plaza....there is already extra frequency with the 122 anyways...

[SurfRail]

Well SR name some hourly brisbane routes then...don't just state something and not give examples......at least give some gold coast routes...
So which other Brisbane outbound hourly routes OFFPEAK that have that amount of people on them? Ive previously quoted on this forum the 125/124 pushing that on a sunday so that doesn't count.....name some others....
I cant imagine someone residing on the gold coast would be able to get too much of a look at brisbane routes along say ippy rd.. :conf :conf...

I routinely travel all over SEQ, including along Ipswich Road.

Last month I saw at least 30 people on a Youngs Bus Service Route 20 trip from Yeppoon to Rocky, on a Saturday.  Does that mean anything especially significant?

We can't all go gallavanting around the countryside every single day seeing some of us have the misfortune of being gainfully employed full time in a position that doesn't require travelling, so I will defer to your obviously superior first-hand knowledge of what every bus route in the region is like (including the ones I actually live on around 80km south of you).