On the Buses

[ozbob]

Proper bus reform is now years overdue.  Silly standoffs between BCC and the State don't help.

TransLink seems unable to do much.   It might have to just all collapse into a pile of steaming sh%t before they wake up. 

Nearly there ... 

[verbatim9]

^^Probably won't see any significant bus improvements until metro is up and running. In the mean time try and catch any bus to the next interchange point.

[techblitz]

I will prep a media release on todays observations later tonight....also see if i can find some more facebook comments...

[ozbob]

I will prep a media release on todays observations later tonight....also see if i can find some more facebook comments...

[James]

This is what happens when you don't improve frequency to address population growth. In this case, around 1000 new student accommodation beds were built at South Bank (possibly more) - enough demand to fill ten 66s.

Instead of adding more services to an already busy service, TransLink simply stuck with the existing frequency and added bigger buses here and there. It isn't enough, and as a result, the 66 is a sardine can for most of the day.

66 users can't wait another four years until Brisbane Metro is finished - better service is needed NOW, not several years down the line. I honestly think you could double the service and it would still do very well, but at least an extra 2-3bph at class start/finish times would be reasonable.

[ozbob]

Yep ... rooted !

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The 4.25pm route 100 outbound bus is cancelled due to heavy traffic congestion

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The 6.15pm route 100 outbound bus is cancelled due to heavy traffic congestion.

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The 6.15pm route 444 outbound bus is cancelled due to heavy traffic congestion.

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The 6.16pm route 60 inbound bus is cancelled due to heavy traffic congestion.

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[ozbob]

I will prep a media release on todays observations later tonight....also see if i can find some more facebook comments...

See Upgrade in frequency urgently needed for Bus route 66 > https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=13515.0

[verbatim9]

With the buses on the Uni routes it's not just about frequency. The buses get caught up in road congestion when enroute to a new route. They also get caught up in road congestion during a normal revenue run. So many times during the week the buses are out of timetable order due to road congestion. That's part of the reason some services are more congested than others.
Go card data would need to be investigated to truly unveil the extent of the situation and where and if improvements should be made?

[verbatim9]

^^With the update coming to the app shortly regarding the amount of passengers on services.  Commuters will be able to plan their trip more effciently and select non congested services and alternative routes to complete their journey. A media release should of been included asking when this feature will be available on Apps and via passenger information screens. It makes more sense to chase up these things which are in the pipeline than asking for brand new services to be implemented.

[ozbob]

No, they need to beef up capacity on the routes overloaded.  Simple.  It doesn't really help if you can see on an app that the next 6 buses are overloaded and you cannot get on.  The buses are still overloaded, more capacity is needed and now.  And you assume that all passengers are app savvy. 

They are not ...

The key issue is lack of capacity.  Waffling on about possible app functionality just obscures the main message.  It is a good effort by the members who contributed.

[brissypete]

I think bigger buses are probably better than more services and with all door boarding.

If frequency is increased there needs to be greater controls to ensure that buses leave on time or you have drivers leaving late cause they keep letting people on and then the next bus follows it half empty. Or what happens with the 412 outbound at times where bus leaving later sits at the stop everyone gets on it and the one leaving first goes out empty.

Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk

[James]

With the buses on the Uni routes it's not just about frequency. The buses get caught up in road congestion when enroute to a new route. They also get caught up in road congestion during a normal revenue run. So many times during the week the buses are out of timetable order due to road congestion. That's part of the reason some services are more congested than others.
Go card data would need to be investigated to truly unveil the extent of the situation and where and if improvements should be made?

This is an issue for the 4XX routes ex-Chancellors Place, but not really for the 66, as the bendy buses running the route now tend to be quarantined to the busway services (66/111/160) outside of peak. If the 66 is running late, it is because of the sheer volume of passengers more than anything else.

Every bus right now is going out full. Every 66 right now is being run with higher capacity articulated buses. This is telling us something - we need more services!

[verbatim9]

With the buses on the Uni routes it's not just about frequency. The buses get caught up in road congestion when enroute to a new route. They also get caught up in road congestion during a normal revenue run. So many times during the week the buses are out of timetable order due to road congestion. That's part of the reason some services are more congested than others.
Go card data would need to be investigated to truly unveil the extent of the situation and where and if improvements should be made?

This is an issue for the 4XX routes ex-Chancellors Place, but not really for the 66, as the bendy buses running the route now tend to be quarantined to the busway services (66/111/160) outside of peak. If the 66 is running late, it is because of the sheer volume of passengers more than anything else.

Every bus right now is going out full. Every 66 right now is being run with higher capacity articulated buses. This is telling us something - we need more services!

Purchase of more longer articulated buses that are currently in service should be investigated and implemented first. There is a lot of congestion currently from Mater Hill to the City on the Busway. Adding additional services will only cause more congestion and slow down travel times. So I totally agree with @Brissypete on this one.

[techblitz]

Busway congestion is not an issue because the media release specifically asks for more services pre school peak and/or post pm peak....easiliy scope/room for more buses to plug holes...

[James]

Purchase of more longer articulated buses that are currently in service should be investigated and implemented first. There is a lot of congestion currently from Mater Hill to the City on the Busway. Adding additional services will only cause more congestion and slow down travel times. So I totally agree with @Brissypete on this one.

You don't understand.

Articulated buses are already being run on the busiest services. The 18m vehicles are the longest the busway can handle until Brisbane Metro is built. These services are consistently going out full leaving South Bank.

The worst issues with the 66 are also outside of peak, so Cultural Centre congestion isn't an issue either. We need more services - it is that simple.

[verbatim9]

Purchase of more longer articulated buses that are currently in service should be investigated and implemented first. There is a lot of congestion currently from Mater Hill to the City on the Busway. Adding additional services will only cause more congestion and slow down travel times. So I totally agree with @Brissypete on this one.

You don't understand.

Articulated buses are already being run on the busiest services. The 18m vehicles are the longest the busway can handle until Brisbane Metro is built. These services are consistently going out full leaving South Bank.

The worst issues with the 66 are also outside of peak, so Cultural Centre congestion isn't an issue either. We need more services - it is that simple.

I do understand I catch buses nearly everyday and have experienced the congestion and queuing between Southbank and Mater Hill from 1pm week days. Extra services may assist in the initial boarding process at Southbank outbound, UQ Lakes and Alex Hospital inbound, but unlikely to improve point to point journey times due to congestion. I stand by alternatives which are currently being rolled out by Translink. 1 App improvements showing capacity and choice for alternative routes and 2. Longer buses for capacity issues. All door boarding should also be a priority for UQ Lakes overlooked by customer service staff or SNO's to ensure adherence of touch ons at entry points of the vehicle. This will ensure that buses leave on time and space is properly utilised in the middle and rear of the artic buses.

[LBR2204]

Here are my thoughts.

1. More articulated buses are needed
2. Extend the 29 to the city via the Capt Cook Bridge to avoid adding extra services around the already congested Cultural Centre
3. Upgrade the 412. The 66 is only 1 min quicker than the 412 during peak times
4. Do not allow paper tickets to be purchased on buses at busway stations. People purchasing paper tickets cause lengthy delays leading to certain services bunching meaning a service would get really full and the next pretty empty. Also when there is bunching the next one may get cancelled causing flow on affects. All busway stations have ticket machines available. The whole point of bus rapid transit is so people can have a faster journey without it being interrupted and people buying paper tickets does interrupt the journey.

[achiruel]

There is essentially no reason the 66 couldn't become a P66. Likewise the 29 & 169.

[techblitz]

Paper tickets are not an issue either.....both the 412 & 66 are running @ only 0.5% paper ticket purchases from their respective UQ stops..
I'm currently looking into the sep origin destination data and it looks like the issue is too many people using the 66 to get to the city as opposed to the 412.....as an example.

intrapeak 8.30 - 2.59 passenger numbers from UQ...

66 to southbank 4038 pax


66 to CC 3052

66 - KGBS 6774

= 13864


uq 412  - benson 7720

uq 412 - roma/ann st terminus 3050

= 10800


66 carrying 3000 more but gets less services intrapeak..

[James]

I do understand I catch buses nearly everyday and have experienced the congestion and queuing between Southbank and Mater Hill from 1pm week days. Extra services may assist in the initial boarding process at Southbank outbound, UQ Lakes and Alex Hospital inbound, but unlikely to improve point to point journey times due to congestion. I stand by alternatives which are currently being rolled out by Translink. 1 App improvements showing capacity and choice for alternative routes and 2. Longer buses for capacity issues. All door boarding should also be a priority for UQ Lakes overlooked by customer service staff or SNO's to ensure adherence of touch ons at entry points of the vehicle. This will ensure that buses leave on time and space is properly utilised in the middle and rear of the artic buses.

"Unlikely to improve point-to-point journey times due to congestion"

So you're telling me that the congestion caused by adding 3bph would cause an extra 10 minutes of congestion at 1pm on a weekday? If things are that bad, terminate another bus route at Woolloongabba to help offset the additional services.

Also:
1. Showing where the capacity is is irrelevant when most services are going out full anyway.
2. All-door boarding, while helpful, given how tightly packed the services are, would only add a few more people to service capacity at most - absolutely not enough.

These sorts of ideas are the kind of band-aid solutions we don't need. We aren't talking about the odd person being left behind, we're talking dozens of pax being left behind every hour.

Finally - the reason for using the 66 over the 412 would be reliability and capacity - the 412s around uni finishing time are already going out full anyway, and the 412s get caught by the unfavourable signal phasing around Skew St.

[verbatim9]

Wow! If that is the case re full revenue services on those routes 412 and 66. Translink BCC would of addressed it already. I am sure they are monitoring the services closely. Not saying that public intervention is not welcomed, but they would ensure that people are not necessarily inconvenienced nor their safety impeded because of overloaded services. I catch the 412 and 66 services. I haven't noticed them myself overloaded 100% of the time. If you think it's an overwhelming issue that cannot be rectified by suggestions by other members and a media release calling for service improvements. It's best to alert your local MP on the issue to ensure Emergency measures are taken to alleviate the situation to ensure everyone on those routes are not inconvenienced nor their health and safety affected due to packed services.

Re choosing between 412 and 66. The same problem occurred a few years back with services to Sunnybank. Commuters, predominantly students were choosing the 130 over the 140 for some reason? Causing  over crowding on the 130 delaying services and placing them out of timetable order. I have noticed now more people spread out between 130 and 140 services now. But the 130 always seems busier.

[Cazza]

They've said that they monitor services closely for years! That doesn't mean anything if no action is taken.

James is right. The answer until the Metro is up and running is simple: increase the Off-Peak frequency and operating times of Route 66.

Additional services on Route 29 to help shuttle students from UQ-Boggo Rd should be implemented. I can also see some merit in extending it to Roma St/KGS via CCB instead.

And as for people complaining about busway capacity issues with additional services, just take a look at the current mess through the Cultural Centre during peak. If Translink (or whoever is in control of this mess) actually wanted to do something about busway congestion, they would have truncated the number of empty services running into the city years ago. It is common to have patches of no buses coming past Southbank inbound platform for up to 2 mins during the off-peak (when these extra services will run). There doesn't seem to be a capacity issue to me.


Edit: Why are people so scared of buses running headways of less than 10 mins? Down in Sydney, it's very common for buses to run as frequent as every 5 mins or better in peak.

Let alone the 891 (Central to UNSW Express Shuttle- Sydney's "Route 66", or main uni route). It runs every 2 minutes or better between 8:09am and 11:09am!!! That's three hours straight! And most of these services are standing room only too. https://transportnsw.info/documents/timetables/18-891-PrePay-Only-Central-Eddy-Ave-to-UNSW-High-St-20190415-20190427.pdf

I don't see any severe bus congestion complaints coming from Anzac Pde from Route 891 and the multitude of other services (aside from the Light Rail construction reducing traffic flow).

Bandaid fixes won't cut it.

[James]

Cazza's response sums it up.

I have a pet hate bus service in my area - the 9:38am inbound 428 ex Indooroopilly. Always overcrowded and always late, and the same goes for the 427 service which goes through around that time. There is a 428 leaving Indro at 9:46am, but it doesn't get to UQ until 10:06am - too late! I wrote to TransLink, BCC and the minister(s) in charge on a number of occasions. Never did anything about it. Eventually I just avoided the bus service - not really a great experience for the customer!

This sort of attitude is reflected in the persistent overcrowding of the 66 as well. It needs fixing.

[LBR2204]

Yes I do agree with Cazza. The 66 could be run every 1-2 mins. I don't see the difference and even if we do get a scenario that one overtakes another it won't be a big deal. The same frequency would roughly continue to happen regardless of the order. Also a direct service from UQ Chancellors Place to RS/KGS following route 412 may be the answer like 891 runs direct from UNSW to Central. Also the time table I agree is stupid for the 428. It goes 9:07, 9:27, 9:37, 9:57, 10:05, 10:20, 10:27. What is wrong with a consistent frequency? It is one of my biggest hates that a consistent frequency isn't kept. Obviously the timetable needs to be fixed and would help with the 66. If I studied at UQ (which I don't) I'd catch one of the services to Indooroopilly station and catch a Redcliffe service to Kallangur. It would be a decent alternative for Caboolture, Redcliffe and Sunshine Coast Line commuters travelling to or from UQ if the timetable was improved.

[verbatim9]

The same scenario in Sydney is different to what occurs in Brisbane. First of all its double the population with larger budgets warranting extra services in Sydney. Anzac Ave is 6 to 8 lanes across. (Up to 4 in each direction) Also services are spread via different routes. Some go to Bondi Junction while others via Oxford Street and Foveaux Street  Best to compare with other relevant western cities of the same population and size. Perth, Seattle, San Diego.

Further infrastructure improvements to UQ can include advocating for a mass transit corridor all the way through to Indooroopilly and Kenmore. Running driverless Metro vehicles in the future. Then commuters can transfer directly off the train at Indooroopilly and catch Driverless Metro Vehicles to UQ.

[LBR2204]

If that’s the case Seattle has a light rail link from the University of Washington to Downtown and the Seattle-Tacoma International Airport (the biggest of two international airports)

[verbatim9]

I have noticed in regards to the transit corridor via Toowong to UQ is that many students tend to use the 412/411 service to Benson Street Toowong then transfer to a train service when coming from UQ. Longer buses should be used on the 412 route, along with corridor sharing with the current Busway setup to address capacity issues. That would be the ideal way forward.

p.s. Aren't some buses due for retirement? These buses could be replaced with articulated vehicles. New purchases could be included in the upcoming BCC budget? Longer buses are better as it addresses capacity issues, without the need of employing extra casual drivers unnecessarily. This alleviates pressure on budgets and allows improvements in other areas of the the PT network.

[techblitz]

I have noticed in regards to the transit corridor via Toowong to UQ is that many students tend to use the 412/411 service to Benson Street Toowong

My last post specifically stated the patronage between UQ - benson...clearly its busiest demand and twice the patronage than UQ  - city 
Look hard enough at the rest of those figures and you will also see that UQ direct to city via the 66 is doing more than twice that of the 412 UQ direct to city..
This is more than enough reason to look at increasing the 66 so it doesn't buckle further with population/student growth.

And with all these new towers...its highly likely the following scenario will put buses under additional pressure...

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/extreme-lengths-to-avoid-detection-illegal-rooming-house-operators-becoming-more-sophisticated-20190207-p50w6z.html

[verbatim9]

I have noticed in regards to the transit corridor via Toowong to UQ is that many students tend to use the 412/411 service to Benson Street Toowong

My last post specifically stated the patronage between UQ - benson...clearly its busiest demand and twice the patronage than UQ  - city 
Look hard enough at the rest of those figures and you will also see that UQ direct to city via the 66 is doing more than twice that of the 412 UQ direct to city..
This is more than enough reason to look at increasing the 66 so it doesn't buckle further with population/student growth.

And with all these new towers...its highly likely the following scenario will put buses under additional pressure...

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/extreme-lengths-to-avoid-detection-illegal-rooming-house-operators-becoming-more-sophisticated-20190207-p50w6z.html

I can't see student growth increasing that significantly. There is always a peak at the first half of the year. Then levels off 2nd half. International students are restricted to visas being allocated. UQ can only accommodate a certain amount of contact time students at anyone time at present.

[James]

^ What's actually happening is while enrolment numbers are not increasing, the number of trips made is increasing. UQ is increasingly shifting enrolment numbers from domestic students to international students, as they often do degrees which are cheap to deliver and can be charged more than domestic students. As the Damos from the outer suburbs is replaced with the Ronnie Chieng from Malaysia (see Ronny Chieng: International Student), your demand shifts from someone who attends 1-2x/week (minimum effort, social life is external to UQ, lives far away) to someone who attends 4-5x/week (attendance is a mandated part of visa requirements, social life revolves around University, close proximity to campus makes going there easy).

Also note that Damo probably drove, while Ronnie lives in one of the numerous new towers of student accommodation built in the past 5 years. UQ seems intent on continuing down this path - so we'd better get used to it!

Finally - yes, there's a start of year peak, but it keeps lasting for longer and longer. This is a sign that supply is not keeping up with demand.

[achiruel]

The same scenario in Sydney is different to what occurs in Brisbane. First of all its double the population with larger budgets warranting extra services in Sydney. Anzac Ave is 6 to 8 lanes across. (Up to 4 in each direction) Also services are spread via different routes. Some go to Bondi Junction while others via Oxford Street and Foveaux Street  Best to compare with other relevant western cities of the same population and size. Perth, Seattle, San Diego.

Seattle definitely shouldn't be on that list. ~1.3 million people (34%) larger population that Brisbane, and ~68% higher population density. Entirely different transport task.

San Diego has similar population stats to Seattle.

Perth is a worthwhile comparison.

[techblitz]

just observed 3 buses pull out of Strathpine (670,671,673) which are all timetabled for :53 or :54
5 passengers onboard total for all 3 buses 

[achiruel]

Public holiday service in that area is garbage, I suspect only those with no alternative use it, hence the poor patronage. I've had a couple of friends report standing room only on Glink between Helensvale and Surfers today. Also heavy loading on 199. Personally observed heavy loading on 150. Frequency matters.

[timh]

 On the bus heading into the city on SE busway, seen three other buses now all displaying 999 "Eight Mile Plains, all stops via South Busway". What's that all about? 111 is still running....

[Cazza]

Shuttles from Suncorp. The Roar game finished not too long ago. Not sure why they display 999.

[ozbob]

Couriermail Quest --> Girl, 12, left stranded by Logan school bus six times

AUTHORITIES are investigating claims overcrowded school buses have left a 12-year-old girl stranded on her way to class six times in recent weeks.

Michael Greenfield has called into question the "Daniel Morcombe policy" after he claims his daughter Alex was repeatedly left behind at a Marsden bus stop while on her way to Marsden State High School.

The furious father claimed he has not heard whether the policy can be enforced, and is outraged over the lack of clarity from authorities.

"If my daughter's been left behind six times in one term effectively, how many children are being left behind statewide or even just Brisbane metro? It's not isolated," he said.

"I need to make sure she's safe and I don't think TransLink, the state government or the federal government are doing what they should be to do that."

The "no kid left behind" policy came into effect after Sunshine Coast school boy Daniel Morcombe was left behind by a bus on the day he disappeared.

Mr Greenfield said after contacting Park Ridge Transit he was assured children were not supposed to be left behind, but claimed less than three days later it happened once again.

"Second week of school this year on the Thursday afternoon, same thing again. Alex was left behind again at the same bus stop, by the same bus company," he said.

"I contacted Mark Bailey's office and never got a response... I was losing my mind. It's too much risk."

Mr Greenfield said he is now moving just 350 metres away from his daughter's school so she will not have to catch the same bus that he claims has repeatedly left her behind since November 2018.

A TransLink spokesman told The Courier-Mail safety was their number one priority and every incident involving a child is "treated serious and investigated thoroughly".

"We take this matter very seriously, and together with Park Ridge Transit continue to investigate the matter," he said.

"We are also working with the operator to investigate the potential for more services on urban route 545 during peak times in addition to alternative bus services already available for students, including urban route 550 and a dedicated school service for Marsden State High School."

In 2012, the Newman Government released a statement under then Transport Minister Scott Emerson referring to a "no child left behind principle".

Transport Minister Mark Bailey declined to comment on the matter.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1122889890322980866

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1122891066791747585

[ozbob]

Queensland Parliament Hansard  Questions without notice

https://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/documents/hansard/2019/2019_04_30_DAILY.pdf

Bus Services, Child Safety Policy

Mr BENNETT: My question is to the Premier. I refer to Minister Bailey's failure to respond to the
father who contacted the minister about his daughter being left behind at a bus stop six times. Has the
Palaszczuk government walked away from the Daniel Morcombe no child left behind policy given the
minister's failure to respond?

Ms PALASZCZUK: I will find out more information for the honourable member and ask the
minister to respond directly to him.

[techblitz]

so I jumped off a 590 arrive Toombul 2.10 needing to get to Chermside.
option 1: wait for 2.26 598 arr 2.45
option 2: catch 2.19 322 arr Toombul 2.50 but bank on it arriving 5 mins early into Chermside due to hardly having any passengers..

Decided option 2 safari tour....sure enough arrival time Chermside 2.44   

[verbatim9]

The 369 has the best connection usually with the 590 at Toombul interchange. It takes just under 10mins to get to Kedron Brook then you have mega choice of buses up to Chermside  Interchange and the city from there. Unless you are going to the burbs of Chermside.