Newcastle - Save our rail

[ozbob]

http://www.saveourrail.org.au/

President's Report - July 2008

Joan Dawson, Save Our Rail President

Save Our Rail has continued to resist any attempt to cut the Newcastle rail line. Following the 2006 announcement by NSW Premier, Morris Iemma, that the rail line to Newcastle would be retained and there would be an improvement program, we thought we could maybe have a party and fold up the banners because our campaign was finished. When the fine print was read, we realised that there was more to be done, as a lot of the money was to go on a feasibility study of the Hunter Business Chamber's Warabrook proposal. This would take electrification from the Newcastle Line and electrify to Warabrook instead, with all passengers from the South being transported away from Newcastle to change trains at Warabrook. The scheme had no merit for the reasons already provided many times, that any interruption to the trip, involving a change of mode or changing trains would not be acceptable to the travelling public, because of the inconvenience.

The Hunter Business Chamber has continued its relentless campaign to close off Newcastle's most valuable transport asset, its heavy rail service going to the heart of the city and close to the beach. New plans keep appearing in The Herald with a variation of the same theme. The Chamber organised a series of meetings, which, along with representatives from Lower Hunter councils also included Save Our Rail, to find common ground towards "transport improvement." Despite our attempts to bring in the subject of the retention of the Newcastle line, this was sidelined throughout the negotiations, and though some worthwhile items were agreed on we felt the most important concept was omitted.

Save Our Rail has effectively countered all proposals to cut the line and has worked towards the improvement and expansion of rail to Newcastle and throughout the Lower Hunter.

Executive members (with valuable assistance and advice) have produced professional presentations and have met with consultants and Government representatives and officials to achieve some considerable success. I acknowledge especially the work of Michael Micevski, who uses his technical ability, putting in huge amounts of time and effort to cause the computers to create great documents, and our supporter, Michelle Nickerson who has magic powers of creativity and organisation in the written aspects of our material. Darrell Harris has an incisive mind for seeking out and applying information relevant to our projects.

Recently our delegation met with Jodi McKay, MP for Newcastle, as a preliminary to our presentation to the NSW Government at the Cabinet Meeting in Maitland. Our proposal, available on our website http://saveourrail.org.au, advocates integration of transport modes through pedestrian crossings over the line at Steel Street and Worth Place to link with the bus services in Hunter Street. We claim that, just as a keystone supports an arch, our crossings, signified by arches, would be the keystone to an integrated city. We suggest improved access to and increased use of the heritage building of Newcastle Station. Also outlined is the need for additional station provision and better access to existing facilities in the fast growing Maitland district. The delegation was well received but that does not necessarily translate into any positive outcome.

Our previous presentation, to Worley Parsons, a consultancy firm appointed by the Government to look into the Warabrook plan, was well received, but to date the report has not been released. We think this must mean there was an adverse finding against the Hunter Business Chamber's nonsense proposal.

There are powerful forces allied to the Hunter Business Chamber, including the current Lord Mayor of Newcastle, John Tate. Despite Newcastle City Council supporting the retention of the line, John Tate as a board member of Honeysuckle Corporation, with its earlier stated intention to close the line, has constantly taken that view (to close the line). He was a member of the Lower Hunter Transport Working Group, which came forth with the now abandoned Broadmeadow terminus plan. Mr Tate has published recently a notion to close the line at Wickham and put in an overpass linked to a new road from Industrial Highway.

Yesterday we met with representatives of the Hornery Institute, consultants to General Property Trust (GPT) , regarding "well-being indicators," pertaining to the re-development of the Hunter Mall area. GPT is rumoured to favour cutting the line. We presented a professionally prepared package of our documents, which were well received and discussed intelligently by the two very well-informed women from the institute.

We hope to liaise further with groups and corporations concerned over the provision of transport, with some indication of a possible meeting with the Hunter Development Corporation (formerly Honeysuckle Corporation) and of further negotiations with the Hunter Business Chamber.

With the need for action on Climate Change and oil shortage becoming obvious through petrol price hikes, rail transport is increasingly seen as the most sustainable option. We need to continue to fight on to preserve the valuable rail link to the City of Newcastle. All members need to consider this in election decisions and preferences.

I acknowledge and appreciate the input of Kim Cross, who as Vice President, provides a professional component to delegations and gives a Maitland perspective to our group. I also wish to thank Julie Norbury, who has been prepared to take on the work of Secretary, when the need was urgent, and despite her other commitments.

I thank all members of Save Our Rail for your constant attendance and support, especially those who have taken on responsibilities in the committee. Your support is the reason the trains are still running to Newcastle and some improvements have been gained.

Joan Dawson
President, Save Our Rail NSW Inc.

It is essential that rail be expanded.  RAIL Back On Track congratulates and supports Save Our Rail NSW Inc on their ongoing efforts.

[colinw]

The Newcastle Herald -> click here

Leaders, businesses welcome rail news
MATTHEW KELLY
12 Dec, 2011 04:00 AM

CIVIC leaders and business groups have welcomed news of an imminent decision on the Newcastle rail line.

It follows a report in Saturday's Newcastle Herald that business sources believe the state government will announce early in the new year the creation of a terminus at Woodville Junction.

The Hamilton to Newcastle link would become a green corridor, which could be used for a future light rail service.

Newcastle lord mayor John Tate, whose support for a Woodville Junction interchange goes back a decade, said it remained the best option.

''If you are going to do it properly, do it at Woodville Junction,'' he said.

''It is a brownfield site where there is plenty of room for rail to spread out from.''

But he cautioned that any plan needed to be backed-up with funding.

''If they just say they are going to cut the rail line no one is going to be happy,'' he said.

Newcastle Alliance and the Hunter Business Chamber also welcomed the suggestion that a decision on the rail was imminent.

''I think any announcement on the rail line would be welcomed by the community because that is what they [the government] were elected on,'' alliance chairman Paul Murphy said.

Chamber president Richard Anicich said the organisation believed that creating an effective public transport system was essential to the revival of inner Newcastle.

''Our main emphasis is to ensure that wherever the rail line is terminated it results in an effective transport system that leads to the renewal of the CBD,'' he said.

But not everyone is enthusiastic. Maitland Save Our Rail campaigner Jan Davis said community groups would fight tooth and nail to retain heavy rail into Newcastle.

''Once again lacklustre governments are looking for easy answers to get the developers off their back,'' she said.

Ms Davis said there would be no compromise.

''It is a world-class railway line that is incredibly well used,'' she said.

[colinw]

Have the muddled headed morons in Newcastle who are pushing this learned nothing from our experience up here.

How much has reversing the closures of 1960-1964 cost us so far? (Specifically: Cleveland, Southport, Tweed Heads).

How much will it have cost by the time we have rail back to Coolangatta & Southport?

And the irony of the NSW Government rejecting forcing a heavy rail to light rail interchange on the NWRL, and simultaneously proposing that for Newcastle, is just remarkable.

If the line into Newcastle is a problem, build over it!

[somebody]

If the line into Newcastle is a problem, build over it!

They seem very reluctant to do this one.  Land is flat AIUI so approach ramps would use up some area, which is at a premium.

There was/is a long thread at busaustralia.com if you are interested.

[ghostryder]

Colinw
The push to remove the railway line began in the 1980s when the Newcastle East Goods Yard was closed and turned into the current parkland. The railway is was blamed for the downfall of the Newcastle town centres woes. Truth is the writing was on the wall for Newcastle CBD some 30-40 years ago, and this was brought about by urban sprawl. Urban sprawl brought about the need for Shopping centres and improvements to the shopping areas. Kotara Fair Now Westfield Kotora and Jesmond Centre iirc still part of the stockland group were amongst the first shopping areas to go into major shopping centres. Another thing that has been and will always be a killer is parking. Newcastles parking strategy is not the best there are several parking stations dotted over the town but they never seemed to be enough. Over the years the location of the line was not a problem as working docks were not far from the line but as time marched on and the docks and shipping changed the location of the line started to show a problem. Level Crossings are located at Hamilton two between Stewart Avenue overpass and one at Civic. There used to be one at Newcastle but it was closed around the time of Electrification due to the new size of the trains.

The yuppies wowsers cant blame themselves for the decline of the Central Business District nwo can they so they have to blame something. I lived in Newcastle between 1970 and 1997 i have been home several times and i can say the expansion of parking metres and time and conditions is not and will not help. There are numerous other things like internet and call centres that have combined to all work against Newcastle.

Scott

[SurfRail]

Getting rid of the railway for a development opportunity is just madness.  We're dealing with an operating passenger line into the second largest city in the state, not a long-disused country branch line on a low bridge that trucks keep smacking into, or something else they might actually be justified in removing.

Ultimately I think it was the earthquake that did the place in.  There is still damage visible everywhere on older buildings in the CBD, and the traders fled to suburban shopping centres and places like Hamilton.  Simply plopping some more development on the waterfront is not going to fix the more basic problem, which is that most of the Newcastle CBD right behind it is a toilet.

[colinw]

Scott (ghostryder), thanks for the interesting background, wasn't aware of any of that.

While I have a Newcastle family connection it goes back to the 1940s. My dad often reminisces about riding the trams in Newcastle, and still has a Newcastle Flyer ticket to Sydney dated 1944.

Even with the decay in the Newcastle CBD that we keep hearing about, I simply cannot fathom what logic there would be in closing the rail line.

[ghostryder]

Surf Rail
The Earthquake was one one a series of events, that put the CBD into decline. I will put it this simple way unlimited parking verse 2hr metered parking need i say more. Besides the Hamilton Shopping district coped it just as bad, with many shops suffering serious damage with awnings and shop fronts ripped down, i know as i was one of the numerous volunteers that helped moved people out of the shattered area.

scott

[somebody]

Surf Rail
The Earthquake was one one a series of events, that put the CBD into decline. I will put it this simple way unlimited parking verse 2hr metered parking need i say more. Besides the Hamilton Shopping district coped it just as bad, with many shops suffering serious damage with awnings and shop fronts ripped down, i know as i was one of the numerous volunteers that helped moved people out of the shattered area.

scott

What are you saying?  Bringing in metered parking killed the Newcastle CBD?

[ghostryder]

Simon
I lived in Newcastle City Councils area at Stockton between 1970-1997, i have been back several times and still have family there. I have seen first hand the decline of Newcastle's CBD. In regards to my Comments on Parking. Hmmm lets see paying 20 bucks for parking and running around the block a dozen or more times trying to find a parking space then racing back to feed the meter when what you had to do took longer than planned hoping you got back before the parking cops got there getting stressed over it, or parking at a satellite shopping centre getting your shopping done no parking fees and having 20 bucks to spend on me hmmm hard choice. People vote with their hip pocket. I recall as a kid paying various accounts for my parents who would drop me off out the front i would run in they would run round the block and pick me up on the next pass.

Newcastle Council tried a period of free parking and it seemed to go over well with people coming back to the CBD, but when the trial period was over the council called it a failure and put the meters back and with their return only those that have to go into Newcastle do so. Of all the Shopping and business districts controlled by the council on the Newcastle CBD has meters. If i read the signs right last i was there the parking regs state Monday to Friday 8am to 5pm Saturday 8am to 4pm ( used to be 8am to 12pm) and is enforceable on public holidays (New option.). So as you can see parking problems is another reason for the CBDs decline but the railway line is blamed as the main cause truth is numerous things have contributed for instance the Royal Newcastle Hospitals closure BHP's Closure the Earthquake Parking Internet Call Centres satellite shopping centres all have chipped away at Newcastle's CBD which has not kept pace with progress.

Scott

[colinw]

The Newcastle Herald -> Minister: no quick fix on rail

28 Apr, 2012

PLANNING Minister Brad Hazzard has thrown cold water on hopes of an imminent decision on the Newcastle rail line, but has promised support for the city is ''very much on my radar'' and that he wants to resolve the issue ''sooner rather than later''.

In an interview this week, Mr Hazzard appeared to put the kybosh on Newcastle MP Tim Owen's suggestions a decision could be made before the state budget in June, saying it would ''simply be misleading'' to fix a timeframe.

''If I had a quick fix for Newcastle I would have already done it,'' Mr Hazzard said.

''I think there's been some great work done ... particularly around the harbour, and it's obviously a challenge to work out exactly why [the city centre] has been limited.''

The Newcastle Herald revealed in February that Mr Hazzard had been tasked with reporting to cabinet on potential plans for the city, including the vexed rail line issue.

A source close to the process said new estimates were substantially less than RailCorp's initial $500-600 million estimates for terminating heavy rail on the city centre's edge and a new interchange, but the figures were being verified.

It is understood Mr Hazzard is due to meet members of the Hunter Infrastructure Board and Infrastructure NSW chief executive Paul Broad in Sydney next week to discuss regional and city issues.

Mr Hazzard said the city was not fulfilling its potential and that ''I can say to the residents of the Hunter that Newcastle and the surrounding area is very much on my radar''.

He expected a decision on the city ''will be logically one where cabinet would have a say, but so would the [Hunter board]''.

Mr Hazzard said he had heard both sides of the rail debate and that there ''are certainly some strong arguments put by those with development dollars to say that they would like some sort of serious restructuring going on in [Newcastle]''.

But he had not yet formed a view, and those speculating on the government's plans ''should all have a Bex and a good lie down and let us work our way through it''.

[colinw]

The Newcastle Herald -> Newcastle 'like Beirut' says infrastructure chief

Newcastle 'like Beirut' says infrastructure chief

MICHELLE HARRIS
03 May, 2012 04:00 AM

PREMIER Barry O'Farrell's chief infrastructure adviser has emphatically weighed into the Newcastle rail line debate, declaring it must be removed to save the city centre from further decline despite the political problems for the government.

To read the Herald's opinion, click here.

Speaking at a Hunter Valley Research Foundation function at state Parliament yesterday, Infrastructure NSW chairman and former Liberal premier Nick Greiner issued a blunt assessment of the central business district of NSW's second city as "looking a bit like Beirut on a bad Friday night".

Mr Greiner, along with Infrastructure NSW chief executive Paul Broad, is spearheading the production of a new 20-year infrastructure plan for the state.

Mr O'Farrell sought him out for the task, but the appointment has become a source of headaches for the Premier with Mr Greiner contradicting the government on issues such as the privatisation of the electricity industry.

Yesterday, before a 130-strong audience that included Hunter MPs, Mr Greiner gave his "personal view" on the rail line, an issue about which the government has yet to state a clear position.

He reflected on his and then deputy premier Wal Murray's proposal 25 years ago to remove part of the line and noted "nothing's happened" in the city since the Honeysuckle redevelopment.

Mr Greiner said the line was "uneconomic" and "it is totally disruptive of any long-term vision for the Newcastle CBD".

There were "political issues" to be considered but at the end of the day action was needed.

"So you've got a choice. You leave the CBD looking a bit like Beirut on a bad Friday night, or you get rid of the rail line. I do think it's as simple as that."

The line's fate is being considered by Planning Minister Brad Hazzard as part of broader plans for the city centre.

Maitland MP Robyn Parker and Upper Hunter MP George Souris, both in the audience yesterday, oppose the early termination of heavy rail services because of the potential inconvenience for commuters in their electorates, although it is understood Mr Souris's opposition has waned more recently.

Mr Greiner also criticised a proposal from Newcastle billionaire Nathan Tinkler for a coal-loader at Mayfield, which the government has refused.

He said such a proposal would undermine the Hunter Coal export framework between coal producers that he facilitated for the former Labor government.

Mr Greiner also suggested the coal industry should pay directly for rail capacity improvements to the coal chain, rather than through federal funding of the Australian Rail Track Corporation to carry out upgrades.

He advocated the development of an aerospace hub at Williamtown and the expansion of Newcastle Airport but said: "I don't think we should delude ourselves" that Newcastle would ever serve as a second Sydney airport.

[O_128]

Daily telegraph 2050

The newcastle line will reopen next year after a 100 billion dollar expansion into the city centre to activate the CBD. The original line was closed in 2013 due to short sightedness and vested interest from developers.

[SurfRail]

Greiner is a t%rd, for more reasons than his opinions in this article.

NSW is still going backwards, which given the last few governments they had is an amazing sight.

[somebody]

Where is Honeysuckle Point?  So did the 1990 report recommend extension of the rail line?

[colinw]

Approximately at Civic station. The proposal back then was for a single station cutback.

I can't believe these morons haven't learned anything from previous mistakes. This is like Southport in 1964 all over again.

Even more incredible is that back in 1988/89, Wal Murray (the NSW National Party version of Russ Hinze) and Nick "Kermit" Greiner were actively considering truncating the Newcastle line a mere 4 years after it was electrified.

[somebody]

I remember Wal Murray, and him wanting to reduce the standard speed limit to 40km/h.

So is this mostly about removing the level crossing east of Civic?

[colinw]

IMHO its a blatant land grab for development purposes, although if it is such an attractive area for development logic would dictate retention of the line and an airspace development.

As usual, nebulous promises of future light rail to "transit wash" the development are occurring.

[somebody]

Greiner is a t%rd, for more reasons than his opinions in this article.

And beyond Maldon-Dombarton?  Airport line as a PPP happened under Fahey.

NSW is still going backwards, which given the last few governments they had is an amazing sight.

They had a few forward moves under the Keneally government and some good stuff with establishing CDC in the NW.

[#Metro]

Can someone please, in a nutshell, explain what the situation is going on here? I can't really grasp what the issues are and I'd like to understand more.

[colinw]

Can someone please, in a nutshell, explain what the situation is going on here? I can't really grasp what the issues are and I'd like to understand more.

For the last 25 or so years, there has been an on-again, off-again push to perform a large scale redevelopment of the somewhat run down Newcastle CBD and close by areas, focusing on the waterfront near the mouth of the river.  The instrument that has been set up to facilitate this is the Honeysuckle Development Corporation.

Since the Greiner Government, and recurring periodically since then, this has led to developer led agitation to truncate the Newcastle line.  The line is viewed by some as an impediment to development, separating the old CBD from waterfront.

The line truncation proposals have ranged from a short cutback to Civic, or to Wickham, or as far back as Broadmeadow.  The proposal generally includes turning the new terminus into a major transport interchange, for either buses or light rail to continue the journey into the redeveloped city..

Support for line truncation seems to come mainly from elements of the Newcastle council and the local Newcastle Herald newspaper (which generally has a strong pro-truncation editorial position). Residents of Maitland and other outer areas are vehemently opposed to the cut, as it will hinder the commute into Newcastle (which seems to mainly come from the DMU "Hunter Line" service from Maitland).

The Sydney interurban trains are somewhat quiet at the Newcastle end, picking most of their patronage up from stations toward Sydney from Broadmeadow.  The Sydney Centric view of the world thus regards the line to Newcastle as non-viable despite the existence of the diesel service to Maitland, which is the real suburban rail service in Newcastle.

[colinw]

I'm sure Scott (ghostryder) can give a more comprehensive background, and correct any inaccuracies in what I wrote above.

FWIW, it does appear that Newcastle station underperforms. Maybe 2000 passengers per day, and around 50th busiest out of 300+ Cityrail stations.

The irony is that if the CBD redevelopment is successful, that very success will probably re-generate the need for the line they are so desperate to kill off.

[#Metro]

I agree that the rail line can be a barrier, just like any Class A ROW could be.

But I have to say this. I can't really see why they can't dig a trench and sink the rail line. Then they could develop over the top of it.

Cutting back is the easiest option, but it also requires a connection and the development no doubt will generate transport demand.
It doesn't make sense to have the main rail station on the outskirts of the city!

[SurfRail]

I agree that the rail line can be a barrier, just like any Class A ROW could be.

But I have to say this. I can't really see why they can't dig a trench and sink the rail line. Then they could develop over the top of it.

Money. 

Probably not viable enough to sink and retain the line while building on top of it.  Property is not the goldmine everybody seems to think anymore (if it ever was) and margins are slimmer and slimmer these days. 

I also believe they had some (largely non-existent) safety concern in NSW about trains hitting support columns, which has stopped them building more stations like Hurstville or Kogarah (which are a bit like Toowong or Central up here or like Box Hill in Melbourne).

Perth has federal funding to do their sinking project.  Newcastle has got bupkis, even from the NSW Government.

[somebody]

I agree that the rail line can be a barrier, just like any Class A ROW could be.

But I have to say this. I can't really see why they can't dig a trench and sink the rail line. Then they could develop over the top of it.

Cutting back is the easiest option, but it also requires a connection and the development no doubt will generate transport demand.
It doesn't make sense to have the main rail station on the outskirts of the city!

There was a long thread at ATDB about this.  It seems options for alternate crossing are pretty limited.  They can't really sink it very easily as it would then be below sea level, and that close to the water's edge it would surely seep in.  There might be a fix for this, but likely cost big $.

It seems there is a case which does have the support of some people to revitalise the Newcastle CBD.

Anyway, I'm not too familiar with the pros and cons so I don't want to say too much, but it does seem a bit weird as it isn't like they are going to electrify to Telarah (Maitland) so there would still be a change involved even if this or something similar happens.

[Jonno]

Modern tunnelling techniques mean this would not be an issue.  If they wanted to build a road tunnel it would not even be mentioned

[colinw]

The Newcastle Herald -> Ps vow to find a solution to rail question

4 May, 2012

THE Hunter's Coalition state MPs insist they will find a way to work together on plans to revitalise inner city Newcastle, despite a dispute about the future of the rail line creating a clear divide.

Four of the region's five Liberal state MPs publicly backed blunt comments from Infrastructure NSW chairman and former Liberal premier Nick Greiner this week that the rail line had to be removed for the city centre to improve.

''So you've got a choice. You leave the CBD looking a bit like Beirut on a bad Friday night, or you get rid of the rail line. I do think it's as simple as that,'' Mr Greiner told a Hunter Valley Research Foundation function in Sydney on Wednesday.

Mr Greiner couched the remarks as his ''personal view'' and said the rail line was not within the purview of Infrastructure NSW, which Premier Barry O'Farrell has tasked with drawing up a 20-year infrastructure strategy for the state.

Planning Minister Brad Hazzard is instead considering plans for the rail line and the city centre.

MPs Andrew Cornwell (Charlestown), Garry Edwards (Swansea), Craig Baumann (Port Stephens) and Tim Owen (Newcastle) said yesterday Mr Greiner was ''stating the obvious'' and they had put similar views to Mr O'Farrell.

However, Maitland MP Robyn Parker and Upper Hunter Nationals MP George Souris, both ministers, remain against the idea, based on the potential impacts on rail users in their electorates.

Mr Owen said he disagreed the city resembled Beirut but reiterated he supported a move to light rail.

Mr Cornwell said the region had an unemployment rate of less than 5 per cent, but ''from the city centre you'd think it's 25 per cent''.

Removing the rail line would improve urban design, he said.

Mr Edwards said he wanted to see the rail corridor and adjacent land retained as public space but backed removing heavy rail.

Mr Baumann said the rail line ''should have been removed years ago'' and cost estimates produced under the former Labor government of up to $500 million for its removal and a new Wickham terminus were ''ridiculous''.

Ms Parker is refusing to support changes to heavy rail services unless they are replaced with light rail.

She said yesterday Maitland's roads were under pressure from commuter traffic and the government should be encouraging transport use rather than removing infrastructure.

Ms Parker said the city could still be revitalised with the rail line in place, as it could help move students into a proposed city centre university campus.

Mr Edwards said he ''can't get my head around where Robyn and George are coming from on this''.

But the MPs insisted they ''work well together'' and would respect their varied positions.

The federal Coalition's regional development spokesman and Paterson MP Bob Baldwin backed Mr Greiner as ''talking sense''.

Mr Baldwin said yesterday the O'Farrell government should not wait until the ''11th hour'' before the next state election to announce plans for the city, and the federal Coalition would, if it won office, be keen to receive any NSW funding submission for Newcastle.

Wallsend Labor MP Sonia Hornery gave notice of a motion in state Parliament yesterday calling on the government to explain how removing transport infrastructure would benefit the city.

She opposed former Labor Newcastle MP Jodi McKay's efforts to have the rail line removed to Wickham.

[#Metro]

Ms Parker is refusing to support changes to heavy rail services unless they are replaced with light rail.

Light Rail is such a dumb idea if it is only going to travel one station. SERIOUSLY. Are they on crack?

[colinw]

Ms Parker is refusing to support changes to heavy rail services unless they are replaced with light rail.

Light Rail is such a dumb idea if it is only going to travel one station. SERIOUSLY. Are they on crack?

I just cannot fathom what is going on down there.   They currently have a heavy rail service from two directions (Maitland & Sydney) which joins to a short (3 station) spine into the Newcastle CBD.

They now propose making people get off the train & interchange to a tram or a bus, to go one or two stations along exactly the same corridor.

This will spend hundreds of millions of dollars for no increase in mobility whatsoever.  All it will do is create an otherwise unnecessary inconvenience which will probably result in a drop in patronage.

I suspect the light rail component of the scheme is "transit wash" and will not eventuate.  A light rail line along the former heavy rail route will close level crossings just as much or MORE than the existing heavy rail service does.  I can just see the "whingers" vehemently opposing turning their abandoned rail line back into any form of operating rail.

Southport in 1964 was stupid, but can be forgiven due to the run down nature of the line, the general ethos of the period, and the relatively small population of QLD at the time.

Newcastle in 2012 has no such excuse. An electrified double track line straight into the CBD of the 2nd largest City of the largest State. We know better.  Apparently many politicians in Newcastle do not.

I do not believe this "truncate the heavy rail & put in light rail" nonsense for one moment.  It is no more credible than Campbell Newman's 2000 buses via the Legacy Way.

[Dean Quick]

GRIEINER.........the scurge of the NSW railways. The person responsible for the utter devastation of services and numerous line closures in the 80's during his tenure as LIBERAL premier. Now he is back like the stinking cat that keeps coming back and whats he proposing.....a sustainable transport future for the state......a well thought out series of heavy rail links....NO....IN FACT MORE RAIL LINE CLOSURES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  FAIRDINKUM, THIS BLOKE JUST DOESN'T KNOW WHEN TO QUIT. Still ranting with that same outdated and short sighted mentality.            WHAT A LOSER!!!

[somebody]

What did Greiner actually do that was so bad?

Worse than Bob Carr?

[Dean Quick]

Closed the Fassifern line..Cooma line..Bourke line..Brewarrina line..just to name a few.

Got rid of the remaining mail trains. Cut back apprentice intakes. Closed workshops........Shall I continue??

I find it ridiculous that this clown could compare Newcastle to Beirut. We all know that he is in the pockets of the developers. In his current position he could do a lot of damage. I have not read or heard him say anything positive in terms of new/redeveloped railway infrastructure.

Aren't we about trying to save and rebuild our railways?

[somebody]

Shall I continue??

Yes.

They all sound like marginal branch lines.

Bob Carr's inaction combined with continued spruiking of stuff he wouldn't follow through with and service cuts + slowdowns were far worse.

[Dean Quick]

Marginal lines?

Any rail line closure is a disgrace!

At least Bob Carr didn't close any lines.

How can you defend Greiner and justify closing another rail line?

You are aware that this site is all about retaining and rebuilding the rail network?

[somebody]

Bob Carr presided over a big drop in Cityrail patronage in the early 2000s and some fatal accidents, two of which were at least partly blamed on management of which he was the top end.

I'm not sure you can say those sorts of things about Greiner.

As far as I am concerned, this site is mostly about PT.

supported the retention of the electric staff to Brisbane, a system that required a 3000t train to stop 6 times just to clear the track ahead.

Didn't know about that!  Is there a reference?

[Dean Quick]

Naturally if steps aren't taken to upgrade/modernise your network, facilities/services then they will eventually be deemed redundant as happened in the 80's. Rail still finds itself struggling to play catch up since then. I simply cannot condone any rail line closure given what we know now about peak oil, global warming etc. Closing a well used and important rail link just to assist/please developers reeks of mistakes made in the past. What angers me most however is that Greiner is now in a powerful position to push for the removal of this line. Just for once it would be great to have someone in such a position fighting for rail--not fighting to close it.

[Dean Quick]

Please don't go on promoting Bob Carr as the saviour of NSW rail. Nothing could be further from the truth

Regards
Shane


I am not promoting Bob Carr as a saviour but I am angry that yet another big transport mistake is about to be made!!

[somebody]

There was also the Sandgate flyover which Carr prevaricated over, but along comes ARTC and up it goes.

[Dean Quick]

 I don't believe this site should be used to voice political persuasions...Lets get back to the facts..... it is Greiner who has called for the lines closure NOT Bob Carr.

[somebody]

I don't believe this site should be used to voice political persuasions...Lets get back to the facts..... it is Greiner who has called for the lines closure NOT Bob Carr.

Come on, barely used branch line closures are more important than drops in Cityrail patronage and fatal accidents?