Northern Busway Extension (Kedron to Bracken Ridge)

[#Metro]

Hello Members,

Thank you to everyone who voted, the poll closed in favour of deviation to PCH.

  

No, it's not silly. It's cost effective. Tunnelling is, almost always, FAR more expensive than building a surface road/highway. Tunneling past Chermside is outrageous, absolutely not required. Absolutely ridiculous cost for the amount of patronage you would serve past there. There is good reason that the 2011 busway plans called for median running along the route beyond Chermside.

Timh, there are members who are uncomfortable with the idea of median running PT - either rail or bus in motorways and arterial roads. It's harder to do the urbanism if it's running in an arterial median or freeway median.

Personally, I don't mind median use. I'm willing to look at compromises. Median can be useful in many scenarios. For the Gympie Road section to Chermside completing the busway in tunnel is preferable IMHO because 4500 pphd is not enough to Chermside IMHO.

That said, beyond Chermside I don't really have strong views. My intention was to consider beyond Chermside as a separate stage.

[timh]

That said, beyond Chermside I don't really have strong views. My intention was to consider beyond Chermside as a separate stage.

Absolutely. The surface running that was originally planned for Kedron to Chermside was always still a Class A ROW, and I think that's justified. I believe there were ideas for parts of the PCH deviation to include surface running, but I can't remember exactly. Refer to my other thread with the full archived plans.

And yes agreed getting to Chermside is the priority, beyond that can definitely be done in a Stage 2. It ultimately would be the cheaper/easier section to build, but is far less important in my view

[Jonno]

It seems that building it with the Airport Tunnel is unlikely (as outlined above) so needs to go its own way and be driven tunnel all the way to Chermside.

Jonno, again your wishes are lofty and to be commended, but totally unrealistic. Driven tunnel all the way to Chermside is totally not necessary and is way too expensive.

The days of wiping out developments for busways stations and ramps are over.  Tunnel it. 

There is a good kilometre or two at least where surface running is applicable, by resuming the caryards. I reject your notion that "The days of wiping out developments for busways stations and ramps are over". Commercial properties like this are much easier to resume than residential, and it's done all the time for public transport projects. They are literally resuming a whole shopping centre for a busway on the extension to the Hyperdome.


New Chatswood Road Busway Station


Google maps showing the current shopping centre at that location

The need for Open Air station because of diesel buses should also be abandoned. 

Are you not aware that King George Square station is a thing? Also plans for the Eastern Busway call for an underground station under Coorparoo Square, so I don't know where you're getting these ideas from.

Fully electric buses or a true Metro (as is really needed) should be doable by the time you build the Northern Busway.

Already a thing. I suspect in 5 years time the fleet will be largely electric anyway.

If this is the case Windsor Station would be on western side of Gympie Rd with direct connection to rail station

2011 plans call for a station connected to Windsor, but it would be an open-cut station on the Eastern side of Lutwyche road, with a direct pedestrian overpass connection. Not sure why it's not on the Western side.

Seems silly to stop tunnelling at Chermside (I mean we build 10-12 lanes of freeway with out even questioning the cost) and tunnel all the way to Aspley.

No, it's not silly. It's cost effective. Tunnelling is, almost always, FAR more expensive than building a surface road/highway. Tunneling past Chermside is outrageous, absolutely not required. Absolutely ridiculous cost for the amount of patronage you would serve past there. There is good reason that the 2011 busway plans called for median running along the route beyond Chermside.

All above assume densification around the stations.

Yeah, this is not a catch all that magically solved your problems. Sure, IF Aspley was built up with 8 storey apartments all the way along Gympie road then maybe yeah you could look at tunneling. But again, I must stress, it's unrealistic. That's not happening any time soon. Your forum posts are constantly "We need more BRT lines!!! We need better interchanges!! Walkable cities!!! Exclamation marks!!!!" but your head seems to be in the clouds in some magical land where political parties are all urbanists, NIMBYs can be silenced immediately, we can divert huge swathes of money away from maintaining/upgrading roads, etc. etc. All lofty goals, but you never offer any serious, rational, sensible solutions that are actually achievable in the current political and economic climate.

The 2011 Northern Busway plans are difficult and expensive to build enough as it is. Even I can see that the "Missing Link" section which I would DEARLY love to see built, would be extremely difficult to get over the line, due to the high cost per kilometre, limited time savings it would offer (10 mins at best), and the geotechnical challenges working around the AirportLink tunnel.

I think advocating for the construction of the busway as per the original documents is what we need to be doing, and I think much like the current Brisbane Metro project, BCC is a good option for someone to foot a majority of the bill. The state government is showing no interest in the Northern Busway. I'm very glad to see them continuing to expand the South East Busway, and the new plans for the joint study to build the Eastern Busway with BCC. Schrinner seems dead keen on getting Brisbane Metro to Chermside. Well, if he wants to do it, and the state isn't moving, then he should pay for it.

We could do a lot more productive things like lobby BCC to start looking at constructing the missing link, further northern busway expansions, etc., than talk about building Busway tunnels to Aspley.

Thanks for reminding me that the stations don't need to be open air. I had just assumed so as the underground ones are (Buranda, Lutwyche) except KGS as your point out.  Queens Street is too I guess.  I had thought Coorparoo and Camp Hill were to be open air even though underground. Why was Buranda built open air?  QLD transport planning seems to have a allergic reaction to development on top of stations.  Not enough space for excessive # of carparking spaces to be built?

All a mute point anyway as bus electronification likely to beat this project anyway. 

Yes I agree avoid tunnelling unless necessary. I do hate seeing developments removed for transport. Such a freeway hangover. Transport infrastructure should allow for intensification of development not removal.  Having said that cut and cover up the middle of Gympie road north of Kedron is certainly doable. Who cares about traffic disruption.  Tunnel to PCH and then back to Chermside.

Stage 2 Cut and Cover to Aspley.

All needs to be Class A so services gets largest # of people out of their cars even to just Chermisde.

Everyone knows my stance on building a true Metro and cycling/bus integration to station.

Lord Mayor will propose his longer buses and the Status Quo will remain (aka Worlds worst active/public transport mode share).

[#Metro]

Everyone knows my stance on building a true Metro and cycling/bus integration to station.

Lord Mayor will propose his longer buses and the Status Quo will remain (aka Worlds worst active/public transport mode share).

I think just completing the Northern Busway will "free up capacity" on Gympie Road which will allow the shoulders to be converted to extra-width separated bike lanes between Chermside and RBWH. Wouldn't that be nice? You could ride from Chermside to the CBD.

There would still be some connection work to do but it would be a significant improvement, and with the busway built, no need for a motorway.

A bike from Chermside to the Brisbane GPO would take ~ 40 minutes to do the 10 km trip. So it's fairly reasonable.

[timh]

It seems that building it with the Airport Tunnel is unlikely (as outlined above) so needs to go its own way and be driven tunnel all the way to Chermside.

Jonno, again your wishes are lofty and to be commended, but totally unrealistic. Driven tunnel all the way to Chermside is totally not necessary and is way too expensive.

The days of wiping out developments for busways stations and ramps are over.  Tunnel it. 

There is a good kilometre or two at least where surface running is applicable, by resuming the caryards. I reject your notion that "The days of wiping out developments for busways stations and ramps are over". Commercial properties like this are much easier to resume than residential, and it's done all the time for public transport projects. They are literally resuming a whole shopping centre for a busway on the extension to the Hyperdome.


New Chatswood Road Busway Station


Google maps showing the current shopping centre at that location

The need for Open Air station because of diesel buses should also be abandoned. 

Are you not aware that King George Square station is a thing? Also plans for the Eastern Busway call for an underground station under Coorparoo Square, so I don't know where you're getting these ideas from.

Fully electric buses or a true Metro (as is really needed) should be doable by the time you build the Northern Busway.

Already a thing. I suspect in 5 years time the fleet will be largely electric anyway.

If this is the case Windsor Station would be on western side of Gympie Rd with direct connection to rail station

2011 plans call for a station connected to Windsor, but it would be an open-cut station on the Eastern side of Lutwyche road, with a direct pedestrian overpass connection. Not sure why it's not on the Western side.

Seems silly to stop tunnelling at Chermside (I mean we build 10-12 lanes of freeway with out even questioning the cost) and tunnel all the way to Aspley.

No, it's not silly. It's cost effective. Tunnelling is, almost always, FAR more expensive than building a surface road/highway. Tunneling past Chermside is outrageous, absolutely not required. Absolutely ridiculous cost for the amount of patronage you would serve past there. There is good reason that the 2011 busway plans called for median running along the route beyond Chermside.

All above assume densification around the stations.

Yeah, this is not a catch all that magically solved your problems. Sure, IF Aspley was built up with 8 storey apartments all the way along Gympie road then maybe yeah you could look at tunneling. But again, I must stress, it's unrealistic. That's not happening any time soon. Your forum posts are constantly "We need more BRT lines!!! We need better interchanges!! Walkable cities!!! Exclamation marks!!!!" but your head seems to be in the clouds in some magical land where political parties are all urbanists, NIMBYs can be silenced immediately, we can divert huge swathes of money away from maintaining/upgrading roads, etc. etc. All lofty goals, but you never offer any serious, rational, sensible solutions that are actually achievable in the current political and economic climate.

The 2011 Northern Busway plans are difficult and expensive to build enough as it is. Even I can see that the "Missing Link" section which I would DEARLY love to see built, would be extremely difficult to get over the line, due to the high cost per kilometre, limited time savings it would offer (10 mins at best), and the geotechnical challenges working around the AirportLink tunnel.

I think advocating for the construction of the busway as per the original documents is what we need to be doing, and I think much like the current Brisbane Metro project, BCC is a good option for someone to foot a majority of the bill. The state government is showing no interest in the Northern Busway. I'm very glad to see them continuing to expand the South East Busway, and the new plans for the joint study to build the Eastern Busway with BCC. Schrinner seems dead keen on getting Brisbane Metro to Chermside. Well, if he wants to do it, and the state isn't moving, then he should pay for it.

We could do a lot more productive things like lobby BCC to start looking at constructing the missing link, further northern busway expansions, etc., than talk about building Busway tunnels to Aspley.

Thanks for reminding me that the stations don't need to be open air. I had just assumed so as the underground ones are (Buranda, Lutwyche) except KGS as your point out.  Queens Street is too I guess.  I had thought Coorparoo and Camp Hill were to be open air even though underground. Why was Buranda built open air?  QLD transport planning seems to have a allergic reaction to development on top of stations.  Not enough space for excessive # of carparking spaces to be built?

Yeah queen street another good example. With Buranda I'm not 100% sure, I'd probably say that because it's so close to the surface there's not much point putting a lid on it, as you couldn't really build anything on top of it the way it is anyway. Very difficult location to build on top of.

Camp Hill I'm not sure, Coorparoo the plan is definitely to have it fully underground. Parts of the cavern wall for the station have already been constructed as part of the Coorparoo Square development. Take a look at my full thread of archived documents.

[Jonno]

PS the removal of the Shops at Chatswood Rd is exactly the wrong thing to do.  The Development should be intensified not removed for car parking.  Faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaark!!

Further any bus integration should be in line with connection across a plaza.  Same as Indooroopilly discussion.  Why do they make is so "road/freeway like"

[#Metro]

Yeah queen street another good example. With Buranda I'm not 100% sure, I'd probably say that because it's so close to the surface there's not much point putting a lid on it, as you couldn't really build anything on top of it the way it is anyway. Very difficult location to build on top of.

I prefer open air busway stations, Buranda and Lutwyche stations are good examples. You have light, and ventilation, and you can put plants in as well. Open air stations have not prevented development around stations - Buranda has a huge student tower next to it.

Why do TODs and TADs always have to have the building right on top of the station? Large buildings need foundations and piles.

[Jonno]

Yeah queen street another good example. With Buranda I'm not 100% sure, I'd probably say that because it's so close to the surface there's not much point putting a lid on it, as you couldn't really build anything on top of it the way it is anyway. Very difficult location to build on top of.

I prefer open air busway stations, Buranda and Lutwyche stations are good examples. You have light, and ventilation, and you can put plants in as well. Open air stations have not prevented development around stations - Buranda has a huge student tower next to it.

Why do TODs and TADs always have to have the building right on top of the station? Large buildings need foundations and piles.

and

[ozbob]

Queensland Parliament

https://documents.parliament.qld.gov.au/tableOffice/questionsAnswers/2023/1337-2023.pdf

Question on Notice
No. 1337
Asked on 25 October 2023

MR R MOLHOEK ASKED MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND MAIN ROADS AND MINISTER
FOR DIGITAL SERVICES (HON M BAILEY)

QUESTION:

Will the Minister provide either the year completed or the year forecast for completion for each
project listed in Schedule 15 of the Airport Link/Northern Busway (Windsor to Kedron)/EWAG
Projects - Project Deed?

ANSWER:

I thank the Member for Southport for the question.

The Palaszczuk Government is delivering its eighth record transport and roads infrastructure
program in a row, as detailed in the Queensland Transport and Roads Investment Program
2023–24 to 2026–27, which outlines $32.1 billion in investment over the next four years and is
estimated to support an average of 25,200 direct jobs over the life of the program. Of this,
$4.565 billion is committed across Department of Transport and Main Roads (TMR) Metropolitan
Region, estimated to support an average of 3500 direct jobs over the life of the program.
Schedule 15 of the Airport Link/Northern Busway (Windsor to Kedron) / EWAG Projects – Project
Deed dates back to 2008 and contains over 200 road infrastructure projects. Given the level of
detail and volume of the information requested, I am advised the requested data will require
substantial time to collate—requiring extensive consultation across local councils and, in some
cases, other third parties—diverting TMR resources away from its core business.

This information can be requested through an application under the Right to Information Act 2009
(the Act). Therefore, the Member is welcome to make an application under the Act for access to
the details, which will then be assessed by right to information officers.

[Habitant]

I do wonder what BCC's plan is once the Northern Transitway is complete. They seem keen on having the 'Metro' BRT extend to Chermside?

Would it require the completion of the Northern Busway? If not, what works need to be done?
And how do they see this aligning with their proposed Gympie Road Bypass tunnel?
What about rail?

Unless I've missed it, BCC really have not communicated a clear unified vision for this sector. And neither has the state government.

[#Metro]

Welcome Habitant 

Yes, a long running theme in SEQ is how different actors don't co-ordinate/interface with each other well.

Tell us about what you'd like to see.

[Beams Road Motorway]

There is a plan for a 'Bus Layover' as part of a widening of the Gympie Road bridge over Downfall Creek, if I recall correctly. Would an upgraded Chermside bus station seperate through and local services, like at Cultural Centre? A Northside Metro-rail interchange is pretty badly needed IMO.

[AnonymouslyBad]

There is a plan for a 'Bus Layover' as part of a widening of the Gympie Road bridge over Downfall Creek, if I recall correctly. Would an upgraded Chermside bus station seperate through and local services, like at Cultural Centre? A Northside Metro-rail interchange is pretty badly needed IMO.

And like Upper Mt Gravatt!

It would make sense to separate.