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Train Upgrade Zones II

Started by #Metro, May 27, 2022, 23:17:36 PM

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#Metro

Came across this paper:

Competition between busways and heavy rail system in South East Queensland, Australia
https://research-repository.griffith.edu.au/bitstream/handle/10072/123441/YenPUB1044.pdf?sequence=1

I think we need to be a bit careful when interpreting or extrapolating results from a regression model, as it's not really taking into account spatial realities. However there are some fair points in the paper.

QuoteThe low market share is mainly due to infrequent rail services (headway of 30 minutes) and low accessibility (of feeder buses) to the rail stations. This is demonstrated by simulations of two possible public transport policies to enhance heavy rail mode share: first increasing heavy rail service frequency and second, increasing the feeder bus stop density.

QuoteThe simulation results are presented in Figures 4 and 5 and Table 3. We simulate various increases in level of rail service frequency; other things remaining unchanged. Figure 4 shows that an increase in heavy rail service frequency by 76% (i.e. from 30 minutes to 7 minutes) would lead to an equal share of the passenger market between bus and heavy rail. In other words, the low mode share of heavy rail in passenger market is substantially due to its low service frequency.

It was not clear from the paper whether this was for the rail network in Brisbane generally or just the Beenleigh line vs the SE Busway. However, it seems rather unlikely that any QR line infrastructure would support services every 7 minutes off-peak in both directions (or even 10 minute frequency on lines).

This paper was published in 2015, towards the end of the Campbell Newman era. Newman introduced 15 min services on the Ferny Grove Line in 2012 as a trial. 15-min services during the day were then extended to parts of the Beenleigh line, Cleveland Line. Parts of the Ipswich line were already 15-min frequent during the day (to Darra).

IMHO there are many constraints to the greater QR Brisbane Rail network which make it unsuitable for metro-style operations (or a substitute for one).
Such as:

- Shared track
- High cost for adding additional services (vs driverless metro, or even buses)
- High cost/impact for capital works to increase capacity (e.g. signalling, flyovers)
- Massive drops in timetabled evening and weekend frequency
- Geography of station locations not being 'on the way' for buses in many cases (even with bus network redesign)
- Slow speeds due to the actual corridor being windy or too many stops spaced too closely together (e.g. Beenleigh Line)
- Not DDA accessible and gaps between train and platform (both vertical and horizontal)
Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.

#Metro

#1
A Train Upgrade Zone (TUZ) is defined as a zone of stations that have at least 15-minute service as the baseline daytime frequency.

Some suggestions for future expansion of TUZ:

> Springfield Line services converted to 15-minute services all day
> Ipswich trains to run express all day
> Shorncliffe line services boosted to 15-minute service all day
> Kippa-Ring services boosted to 15-minute service all day (complements the Springfield line upgrade)

Conceptually, Kipp-Ring-Springfield line frequency boost and Ipswich Line all-day express could be packaged together as one initiative.

Rail network patronage will only increase significantly when major changes are made to the bus network to switch it to a model that features more cross-town bus routes. In terms of enabling buses to connect with rail, boosts to the Kippa Ring line stations are the most beneficial.

The main QR rail lines to benefit from bus reorganisation are likely to be:
- Ipswich/Springfield lines (buses feeding into Darra, Indooroopilly and Toowong)
- Ferny Grove line (cross-town buses on the Brisbane Northside grid)
- Caboolture line and lines that share stations with it (cross-town buses on the Brisbane Northside grid)

I'm not really aware of what the bus network looks like in Moreton bay, but there is a lot of development there, Kippa-Ring line could do really well with a bus and train boost.
Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.

SurfRail

^ You could definitely run a 7-8 minute headway throughout the day on several lines, but I don't believe it would be necessary.

We should be aiming for the network to be capable of delivering 10 minute headways in the off-peak, but we can't even get consistent 15 minute headways outside of the inner bits and even then only on weekdays for most of it.

COVID was a soft excuse to do nothing about this for 2 years, but it doesn't excuse the lack of action before (and doesn't excuse that now).
Ride the G:

Jonno

We should determine the target/outcome we want/need (aka upwards of 30-40%) public transport in a city of 15 min Neighbourhoods.

Then we design the network tequired then we determine the frequencies needed and technology to support it!


#Metro

Which lines are capable of 10 minute service all day in both directions and how far along the line?
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ozbob

SEQ: Train Upgrade Zones: Adopt Transperth Service Frequencies Across Greater Brisbane

6th June 2022

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web-based community group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers calls for the adoption of Perth train service frequencies across Greater Brisbane to facilitate bus reform.

Perth's train network, which is comparable to the Brisbane suburban rail network, has had 15 minute train frequency all day to all stations for many years now (1). This includes Saturday and Sunday. Greater Brisbane does not compare favourably, with many stations still having 30 minute train frequency during the daytime weekdays, and most stations having 30 minute service on weekends. The Sunshine Coast line is even worse than that.

A 'Train Upgrade Zones' program would seek to tackle this issue, reducing journey times through a combination of frequency and speed upgrades aimed at reducing waiting times or increasing train service speeds. An initial program would incorporate between 7 am - 7 pm:

- 15-minute daytime weekday frequencies on the Springfield Line
- All-day express trains on the Ipswich Line on weekdays*
- 15-minute daytime weekday frequencies on the Kippa-Ring Line

*as per current peak express pattern - stations Ipswich <> Darra, then Indooroopilly, Milton and Roma St

By increasing average train speed on the Ipswich line from 40 km/hr to 60 km/hr, passengers will save around 8 minutes (2). It will also facilitate bus interchange at Indooroopilly for passengers who live in Brisbane's west. Increased frequency on the Springfield Line will save between 7.5 to 15 minutes waiting time for Springfield line passengers, and also facilitate mode shift away from park-and-ride towards buses.

Increased frequency on the Kippa-Ring Line will save between 7.5 to 15 minutes waiting time for passengers and facilitate Brisbane City Council buses to run East-West along northside Brisbane roads, creating connections to both busways and railways (3).

We call on the Queensland State Government and the Opposition to support a Train Upgrade Zones program in South East Queensland.
Western Australians have been getting a very much better deal on train transport than Queenslanders have for a very long time.

References:

1. Transperth Train Timetables
https://www.transperth.wa.gov.au/timetables

Minimum basic service frequency (Perth)
Armadale Line - Every 15 min weekdays (7 am - 7 pm) and Weekends (9 am - 7 pm) all stations except Thornlie on Sunday.
Fremantle Line - Every 15 min weekdays (6 am - 7 pm) and Weekends (7 am - 8 pm) all stations
Joondalup Line - Every 15 min weekdays (6 am - 9 pm) and Weekends (9 am - 8 pm) all stations
Mandurah Line - Every 15 min weekdays (6 am - 9 pm) and Weekends (9 am - 7 pm) all stations
Midland Line - Every 15 min weekdays (6 am - 9 pm) and Weekends (8 am - 8 pm) all stations


2. Time saving from express train running

Ipswich Line: 38.64 km / (58 min x 1hr/60min) = 39.97 km/hr ~ 40 km/hr
Ipswich Line (Express): 38.64 km / (50 minutes x 1hr/60 min) = 60 km/hr
Time saving of 8 minutes on all trips from Express Running

3. Time saving from 15-minute frequent train running

Kippa-Ring and Springfield Lines (journey time reduced through waiting time saved by higher frequency)
Train every 30 minutes: average wait 15 minutes, maximum wait 30 minutes.
Train every 15 minutes: average wait 7.5 minutes, maximum wait 15 minutes.
Average time saving 7.5 minutes, maximum time saving 15 minutes

Background: The Transit Ridership Recipe

https://humantransit.org/basics/the-transit-ridership-recipe#frequency

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org
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ozbob

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ozbob

#8
Sent to all outlets:

Transperth versus Translink (SEQ): RAIL Back On Track reveals extent of poor train service in Greater Brisbane

4th July 2022

RAIL Back On Track has conducted an analysis comparing stations in the greater suburban areas of Greater Brisbane and Perth. Specifically, we looked at stations where frequent train service all day was provided, based on four trains per hour, or roughly a train every 15 minutes or better. We release the results of our analysis of the Transperth and Translink SEQ suburban train networks, including the raw data ( spreadsheet > https://backontrack.org/docs/metro15/TranslinkvsTransperthTrains2022.ods )

Our analysis is unequivocal. Perth provides frequent train service to more train stations on a Sunday than what is provided to Greater Brisbane on a weekday. On the absolute number of train stations, or the percentage of train stations with frequent service, Perth comes out on top, and by a large margin.

Less than half of the train stations examined in Greater Brisbane have frequent train service on a weekday (43%, 53 train stations). In Perth, this is 100% (70 train stations). On weekends in Greater Brisbane, service is halved approximately again (23%, 28 stations), whereas in Perth high frequency is maintained on both Saturday and Sunday. The Doomben line doesn't even have rail services on Sundays.

We believe this extraordinary lack of train service in Greater Brisbane will become a QLD State Election issue in 2024. Large increases in transport investment have simply not resulted in the provision of improved basic all-day frequent train service for Brisbane (1). Perth has a lower population than Greater Brisbane, a very low urban density, and is highly car dependent.

Transperth understands that in a low density environment, trains must be fast and frequent, and that connecting buses must be used to collect passengers within the railway catchment because walk-up patronage will be insufficient to support frequent all-day train service (2). The application of these network design principles appear to have been lost on the Queensland Government, at least in Brisbane (3).

It is also not helped by Brisbane's bus operator BCC - Transport for Brisbane being averse or unable to shorten bus routes to terminate at or properly service key train stations such as Coopers Plains, Enoggera, Indooroopilly, Morningside, and Toowong. In some cases a proper bus interchange is not there, in other cases key bus routes fail to enter the train station precinct and yield its passengers to the train. If not by bus, how else are passengers supposed to get to Brisbane train stations - move house?

RAIL Back On Track calls on all political parties and candidates who intend to contest the Queensland 2024 State Election to adopt our Train Upgrade Zones (TUZ) policy (4). To win government, it is necessary to win seats in Greater Brisbane and there is a train station with all-day low service frequency in almost every one.





Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org


References:

1. Note - Cross River Rail. This situation is unlikely to change even after the opening of Cross River Rail. Cross River Rail is mainly about expanding peak hour train capacity on the wider network. As such, it has no bearing on the number of frequency of trains provided in the off-peak, where services are well within network capacity.

2. Application of a Commuter Railway to Low Density https://www.bitre.gov.au/sites/default/files/2019-12/2009_infrastructure_colloquium_peter_martinovich.pdf A rail catchment can be defined as a 5-10 minute bus trip from the train station.

3. Exception - Gold Coast. The success of the Gold Coast Light Rail is due in part to the supporting bus network, which was restructured to feed passengers to Light Rail stations. This has resulted in a large increase in overall public transport use on the Gold Coast, despite the fact that the Light Rail service is not significantly more frequent than the bus corridor that it replaced.

4. SEQ: Train Upgrade Zones: Adopt Transperth Service Frequencies Across Greater Brisbane https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=14672.0

Note: For the purposes of this analysis, we excluded stations outside of Greater Brisbane such as those on the Gold Coast Line, Rosewood Line and north of Caboolture. Special-event train stations such as Exhibition and Showgrounds stations were also excluded. We examined the interpeak period to represent all day service.

5. The Transit Ridership Recipe https://humantransit.org/basics/the-transit-ridership-recipe
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ozbob

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ozbob

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ozbob

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ozbob

#12
Sent to all outlets:

Re: Transperth versus Translink (SEQ): RAIL Back On Track reveals extent of poor train service in Greater Brisbane.

5th July 2022

Good Morning,

There was a minor issue with the data which has since been updated.  Spreadsheet and images are updated.

Thornlie, which at present is a short single station spur (branch) line off the Armadale line has 30 minute trains on Sundays, otherwise 15 minute frequency Monday through to Saturdays.  This is in marked contrast to our Doomben line which has no trains on Sundays!  We mistakenly assigned Thornlie as having 15 minute services on Sunday.  Thanks to @MelbOnTransit for bringing this to our attention.

The Thornlie spur line is planned to be extended to Cockburn Central station on the Mandurah line by 2024.  No doubt it will have 15 minute frequency from that date.

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Quote from: ozbob on July 04, 2022, 00:44:31 AMSent to all outlets:

Transperth versus Translink (SEQ): RAIL Back On Track reveals extent of poor train service in Greater Brisbane

4th July 2022

RAIL Back On Track has conducted an analysis comparing stations in the greater suburban areas of Greater Brisbane and Perth. Specifically, we looked at stations where frequent train service all day was provided, based on four trains per hour, or roughly a train every 15 minutes or better. We release the results of our analysis of the Transperth and Translink SEQ suburban train networks, including the raw data ( spreadsheet > https://backontrack.org/docs/metro15/TranslinkvsTransperthTrains2022.ods )

Our analysis is unequivocal. Perth provides frequent train service to more train stations on a Sunday than what is provided to Greater Brisbane on a weekday. On the absolute number of train stations, or the percentage of train stations with frequent service, Perth comes out on top, and by a large margin.

Less than half of the train stations examined in Greater Brisbane have frequent train service on a weekday (43%, 53 train stations). In Perth, this is 100% (70 train stations). On weekends in Greater Brisbane, service is halved approximately again (23%, 28 stations), whereas in Perth high frequency is maintained on both Saturday and Sunday. The Doomben line doesn't even have rail services on Sundays.

We believe this extraordinary lack of train service in Greater Brisbane will become a QLD State Election issue in 2024. Large increases in transport investment have simply not resulted in the provision of improved basic all-day frequent train service for Brisbane (1). Perth has a lower population than Greater Brisbane, a very low urban density, and is highly car dependent.

Transperth understands that in a low density environment, trains must be fast and frequent, and that connecting buses must be used to collect passengers within the railway catchment because walk-up patronage will be insufficient to support frequent all-day train service (2). The application of these network design principles appear to have been lost on the Queensland Government, at least in Brisbane (3).

It is also not helped by Brisbane's bus operator BCC - Transport for Brisbane being averse or unable to shorten bus routes to terminate at or properly service key train stations such as Coopers Plains, Enoggera, Indooroopilly, Morningside, and Toowong. In some cases a proper bus interchange is not there, in other cases key bus routes fail to enter the train station precinct and yield its passengers to the train. If not by bus, how else are passengers supposed to get to Brisbane train stations - move house?

RAIL Back On Track calls on all political parties and candidates who intend to contest the Queensland 2024 State Election to adopt our Train Upgrade Zones (TUZ) policy (4). To win government, it is necessary to win seats in Greater Brisbane and there is a train station with all-day low service frequency in almost every one.





Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org


References:

1. Note - Cross River Rail. This situation is unlikely to change even after the opening of Cross River Rail. Cross River Rail is mainly about expanding peak hour train capacity on the wider network. As such, it has no bearing on the number of frequency of trains provided in the off-peak, where services are well within network capacity.

2. Application of a Commuter Railway to Low Density https://www.bitre.gov.au/sites/default/files/2019-12/2009_infrastructure_colloquium_peter_martinovich.pdf A rail catchment can be defined as a 5-10 minute bus trip from the train station.

3. Exception - Gold Coast. The success of the Gold Coast Light Rail is due in part to the supporting bus network, which was restructured to feed passengers to Light Rail stations. This has resulted in a large increase in overall public transport use on the Gold Coast, despite the fact that the Light Rail service is not significantly more frequent than the bus corridor that it replaced.

4. SEQ: Train Upgrade Zones: Adopt Transperth Service Frequencies Across Greater Brisbane https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=14672.0

Note: For the purposes of this analysis, we excluded stations outside of Greater Brisbane such as those on the Gold Coast Line, Rosewood Line and north of Caboolture. Special-event train stations such as Exhibition and Showgrounds stations were also excluded. We examined the interpeak period to represent all day service.

5. The Transit Ridership Recipe https://humantransit.org/basics/the-transit-ridership-recipe
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ozbob

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ozbob

Sent to all outlets:

22nd September 2023

Greetings,

The fundamental problem with public transport in SEQ outside the Brisbane inner core is the lack of frequent services.
Continuing to ignore this deficit will result in political oblivion.

Nothing has changed since July 2022.

=====

Sent to all outlets:

Transperth versus Translink (SEQ): RAIL Back On Track reveals extent of poor train service in Greater Brisbane

4th July 2022 re-released 22nd September 2023

RAIL Back On Track has conducted an analysis comparing stations in the greater suburban areas of Greater Brisbane and Perth. Specifically, we looked at stations where frequent train service all day was provided, based on four trains per hour, or roughly a train every 15 minutes or better. We release the results of our analysis of the Transperth and Translink SEQ suburban train networks, including the raw data ( spreadsheet > https://backontrack.org/docs/metro15/TranslinkvsTransperthTrains2022.ods )

Our analysis is unequivocal. Perth provides frequent train service to more train stations on a Sunday than what is provided to Greater Brisbane on a weekday. On the absolute number of train stations, or the percentage of train stations with frequent service, Perth comes out on top, and by a large margin.

Less than half of the train stations examined in Greater Brisbane have frequent train service on a weekday (43%, 53 train stations). In Perth, this is 100% (70 train stations). On weekends in Greater Brisbane, service is halved approximately again (23%, 28 stations), whereas in Perth high frequency is maintained on both Saturday and Sunday. The Doomben line doesn't even have rail services on Sundays.

We believe this extraordinary lack of train service in Greater Brisbane will become a QLD State Election issue in 2024. Large increases in transport investment have simply not resulted in the provision of improved basic all-day frequent train service for Brisbane (1). Perth has a lower population than Greater Brisbane, a very low urban density, and is highly car dependent.

Transperth understands that in a low density environment, trains must be fast and frequent, and that connecting buses must be used to collect passengers within the railway catchment because walk-up patronage will be insufficient to support frequent all-day train service (2). The application of these network design principles appear to have been lost on the Queensland Government, at least in Brisbane (3).

It is also not helped by Brisbane's bus operator BCC - Transport for Brisbane being averse or unable to shorten bus routes to terminate at or properly service key train stations such as Coopers Plains, Enoggera, Indooroopilly, Morningside, and Toowong. In some cases a proper bus interchange is not there, in other cases key bus routes fail to enter the train station precinct and yield its passengers to the train. If not by bus, how else are passengers supposed to get to Brisbane train stations - move house?

RAIL Back On Track calls on all political parties and candidates who intend to contest the Queensland 2024 State Election to adopt our Train Upgrade Zones (TUZ) policy (4). To win government, it is necessary to win seats in Greater Brisbane and there is a train station with all-day low service frequency in almost every one.





Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org


References:

1. Note - Cross River Rail. This situation is unlikely to change even after the opening of Cross River Rail. Cross River Rail is mainly about expanding peak hour train capacity on the wider network. As such, it has no bearing on the number of frequency of trains provided in the off-peak, where services are well within network capacity.

2. Application of a Commuter Railway to Low Density https://www.bitre.gov.au/sites/default/files/2019-12/2009_infrastructure_colloquium_peter_martinovich.pdf A rail catchment can be defined as a 5-10 minute bus trip from the train station.

3. Exception - Gold Coast. The success of the Gold Coast Light Rail is due in part to the supporting bus network, which was restructured to feed passengers to Light Rail stations. This has resulted in a large increase in overall public transport use on the Gold Coast, despite the fact that the Light Rail service is not significantly more frequent than the bus corridor that it replaced.

4. SEQ: Train Upgrade Zones: Adopt Transperth Service Frequencies Across Greater Brisbane https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=14672.0

Note: For the purposes of this analysis, we excluded stations outside of Greater Brisbane such as those on the Gold Coast Line, Rosewood Line and north of Caboolture. Special-event train stations such as Exhibition and Showgrounds stations were also excluded. We examined the interpeak period to represent all day service.

5. The Transit Ridership Recipe https://humantransit.org/basics/the-transit-ridership-recipe
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kram0

Yes, welcome to Queensland where public transport is still living in the 80's.

#Metro

A very revealing data analysis.  No response from Minister or TMR, lol  ::)
Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.

ozbob

#19
It has been commented that the Minister said there would not be any frequency upgrades until the new trains arrive in 2026/2027 (which is a rather optimistic date) allegedly on ABC Radio - I cannot find it.  I find that very disappointing in the extreme, and suggests the CRR service upgrades as outlined in SEQ Rail Connect is one big hoax. For example 15 minute off peak services on the Springfield line to enable the express pattern on the Ippy  I think we need elected officials there are able to utilise our existing assets a lot better.

There are plenty of trains/crew to boost interpeak train frequencies.  Peak improvements are limited BUT NOT off peak.

I intend to drive this as a key election issue.  The days of wine and roses are over.

Paying attention  :lu:  :lu:  :lu: ? ? ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekFeoP6roXs
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#Metro

#21
QuoteOn my walk beside the Moreton Bay Rail Link this morning I observed a number of empty trains returning to the stabling yard.

It seems ridiculous to invest all of this money in the network, rolling stock and people only for much of the capacity to sit idle during the interpeak.

Yep. Pay $1.2 billion to replace 2 services per hour on rubber tyres to 2 services per hour on steel wheels. Made this point before the project IIRC, but it didn't land well.  :-c  In any case, MBRL improved timetable was not possible as not enough staff to run the timetabling at opening.

QuoteIt has been commented that the Minister said there would not be any frequency upgrades until the new trains arrive in 2026/2027 (which is a rather optimistic date) allegedly on ABC Radio - I cannot find it.  I find that very disappointing in the extreme, and suggests the CRR service upgrades as outlined in SEQ Rail Connect is one big hoax. For example 15 minute off peak services on the Springfield line to enable the express pattern on the Ippy  I think we need elected officials there are able to utilise our existing assets a lot better.

There are plenty of trains/crew to boost interpeak train frequencies.  Peak improvements are limited BUT NOT off peak.

So there does not seem to be any connection between the delivery of new trains and the ability of QR to provide all day train frequency right now. This is because Peak Trains > Off Peak Trains, so a surplus of trains is available during the off-peak to run additional services.

I have heard commentary that they want to "bed down the timetable" to reveal if there were any problems, and the MBRL opening problems were used as a justification for that. I think this lacks credibility - new lines open all the time with more services/altered timetables, the testing happens before commissioning.

A more mundane reason might be traincrew not sufficient, or just don't want to change the timetable as it is a lot of work to do so until 2026/2027.

A key insight from the SE Busway is that only about 10% of patronage comes from the morning peak, given there are two peaks per day, about 20%-40% of patronage is from the peak period (depending on whether you define peak as 1-hour or 2-hour). This means that the rest of the patronage is coming from the off peak, about 60%. Peak is prominent in our mind, but it only represents a fraction of the total day.
Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.

SurfRail

^ The busway does have the advantage of going to (generally) more useful and more populated places than large chunks of the railway.  Stations like Holland Park West and Greenslopes are the exceptions.

There is absolutely no impediment to running 15 minute headways from the city to the following locations in both directions all week long, apart from potentially staffing.

- Ipswich
- Springfield Central
- Kuraby
- Manly (Cleveland possible but with varying degrees of reliability)
- Airport
- Sandgate (Shorncliffe possible but with varying degrees of reliability)
- Kippa-Ring
- Ferny Grove

Caboolture, and Beenleigh / Gold Coast I think have some more issues given lack of track capacity but 15 minute headways in one direction can be done (for instance to minimise crowding on services to the Gold Coast in the morning on weekends and public holidays and heading back in the afternoon).

Excuses from QR need to be strongly challenged because other railways don't have these perpetual issues and are run to maximise their utility to the public.
Ride the G:

HappyTrainGuy

#23
It's not as simple as that. Redcliffe was to be 2tph before 4tp was intended as part of the translink network mods but there were outside factors before it opened that stopped that such as bus network mods not happening and then infrastructure issues. Driver numbers and training were another issue. The NGR phase in didn't eventuate and then there were issues with the current NGRs and EMU phase out. To enable the NGRs to run station staff numbers had to be boosted - this is why NGRs aren't allowed to run Ferny Grove-Beenleigh. SMU200 had very sever issues and it was looking like they would be added to the EMU phase out list aswell. Some sat idle for months and they regularly would be sitting idle. 2 sat stowed outside Redbank for about 11 months, another two were regulars at the Caboolture yard, another was at Maryborough seeing if it was cost effective to repair it and the others or write them off and the ones that did run had a very poor reliability and were preferred not to be used in revenue runs. 107 derailed and lived at the Ipswich workshops for a few months. You would be reluctant to start boosting frequencies knowing the NGR contract was cancelled, 99x 3 car trains and 4 ICE sets were on the scrapping block (EMU's have had end of life extensions but they are still regularly being withdrawn and scrapped) knowing the NGRs would need a rectification program, more withdrawals for ETCS fit outs and there also being a SMU260/IMU160 refurbishment program which were delayed for NGR mods but are both now underway.

You can get around the fleet numbers and drivers etc but you can't get around the PSA requirements which is the main problem. Both from a cost perspective and then an employment perspective - which could also be used against the government for bloating the government workforce or sacking staff in the political perspective. CRR/QTMP comments would probably be based around the sectorisation of line pairs and rollingstock that runs on them which will also involve redeploying existing PSA staff to other lines.

ozbob

#24
The train fleet bumbling management of the last 20 years or so is appalling.

I don't blame QR but I do blame the constant political incompetence and other bumbling bureaucracies that have allowed this festering mess to be in place.

If there isn't moves to increase train frequency out of peak particularly on the Sunshine Coast - Ipswich Rosewood lines,  I think the present political situation will alter dramatically in 2024.
Train service frequency out of peak on most lines is not acceptable.

There are EMUs stowed at Redbank, are these the back up plan?  ;)

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SurfRail

Quote from: HappyTrainGuy on September 23, 2023, 00:00:38 AMIt's not as simple as that. Redcliffe was to be 2tph before 4tp was intended as part of the translink network mods but there were outside factors before it opened that stopped that such as bus network mods not happening and then infrastructure issues. Driver numbers and training were another issue. The NGR phase in didn't eventuate and then there were issues with the current NGRs and EMU phase out. To enable the NGRs to run station staff numbers had to be boosted - this is why NGRs aren't allowed to run Ferny Grove-Beenleigh. SMU200 had very sever issues and it was looking like they would be added to the EMU phase out list aswell. Some sat idle for months and they regularly would be sitting idle. 2 sat stowed outside Redbank for about 11 months, another two were regulars at the Caboolture yard, another was at Maryborough seeing if it was cost effective to repair it and the others or write them off and the ones that did run had a very poor reliability and were preferred not to be used in revenue runs. 107 derailed and lived at the Ipswich workshops for a few months. You would be reluctant to start boosting frequencies knowing the NGR contract was cancelled, 99x 3 car trains and 4 ICE sets were on the scrapping block (EMU's have had end of life extensions but they are still regularly being withdrawn and scrapped) knowing the NGRs would need a rectification program, more withdrawals for ETCS fit outs and there also being a SMU260/IMU160 refurbishment program which were delayed for NGR mods but are both now underway.

You can get around the fleet numbers and drivers etc but you can't get around the PSA requirements which is the main problem. Both from a cost perspective and then an employment perspective - which could also be used against the government for bloating the government workforce or sacking staff in the political perspective. CRR/QTMP comments would probably be based around the sectorisation of line pairs and rollingstock that runs on them which will also involve redeploying existing PSA staff to other lines.

These are "excuses".  They are not insoluble.
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#Metro

QuoteThese are "excuses".  They are not insoluble.

Agreed. Kippa-Ring should be the next to go to 15 min, or if that's not possible, a short working.

BCC won't redesign northside buses around trains if the all day train frequency isn't there.

Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.

HappyTrainGuy

Never said they weren't. But as I pointed out there was a point in time where 87x 3 car trains with a possibility of that changing to 99x 3 car trains and the ice fleet were going to the scrappers, rollingstock refurbs, NGR needing compliance mods all with no new rollingstock on the horizon. That's a lot of uncertainty if you want to boost the frequency of some lines especially if you have other infrastructure such as CRR coming online before your next fleet order arrives. Remember the northern busway at Kedron was only going to have 333 buz and the 2bph 330/340 at opening day. In the lead up to opening day the 330 and 340 were made a buz route and 330 drivers were told to use the busway despite the busway being slower than staying on the surface roads thanks to the 3-4 minute light cycle on Stafford road and the 3 minute cycle at the southern entrance.

And there are members here that love to point out driver/guard costs being the reason why we need DOO for 15 min frequencies but won't address the PSA staff costs (which mind you far exceeds the driver/guard pay) to maintain a reliable timetable. As we have seen there are network delays solely as a result of wheelchair users boarding NGR's on lines where there aren't PSA staff. If you boost the frequency you have to boost the PSA numbers aswell especially when it comes to city slots and flat junctions as we see at Park Road and Bowen Hills. We have those delays as a result of gambling on wheelchair or disabled users not using those stations. More and more stations are having temporarily raised middle platforms to cut down on staffing costs by changing their rostered hours/multiple stations covered by staff and putting more pressure on the fat in the timetable/lack of disabled users using pt.

300LA

Quote from: HappyTrainGuy on September 23, 2023, 00:00:38 AMTo enable the NGRs to run station staff numbers had to be boosted - this is why NGRs aren't allowed to run Ferny Grove-Beenleigh.

Why do the NGRs require more station staff than the other EMUs?

HappyTrainGuy

#29
Quote from: 300LA on September 23, 2023, 21:55:39 PM
Quote from: HappyTrainGuy on September 23, 2023, 00:00:38 AMTo enable the NGRs to run station staff numbers had to be boosted - this is why NGRs aren't allowed to run Ferny Grove-Beenleigh.

Why do the NGRs require more station staff than the other EMUs?
To speed up dwell times and prevent passengers from being missed which happened a number of times.

Guards are located at the cab end of car 6 on NGRs while on the rest of the fleet guards are located in car 4. Disabled boarding points are aligned at the centre of the platform around cars 3 and 4. In cases on the Doomben line if there isn't a PSA the guard has to walk to the middle of the platform from the end of the train, if they didn't take a ramp with them they have to unlock the ramp from the cabinet on the platform, assist with the boarding, lock up the ramp/walk back to the end of the train with the ramp, secure it and then perform regular duties. If the train stops at an unattended station then the same process happens again. Doomben being single track means the following train has to wait at EJ blocking all northbound traffic on the subs and all citybound traffic stops due to the points configuration. Next problem is then the city slot at Bowen Hills. Depending on the delay the citybound service on the FG flyover can also be held up. Because of the delay back at the Doomben junction at EJ it's not uncommon to then have following services skipping Wooloowin and Albion stations to maintain the city slot. Similar problems with late running also exist at the PR junction with small delays on the Cleveland line easily resulting in station skipping to maintain the slot and prevent outbound Park Road-Central congestion (every now and then multiple sets can end up stowed at P3 or a flat junction cross to the western subs to turn around at Corinda to limit congestion north of PR). Northgate junction has similar problems with all stoppers and express services maintaining slots. Most of the junction issues relate to peak hour but you can still delay services as we see on the Doomben and Nambour line.

SurfRail

So we should be progressively moving the assisted boarding point to the end of the platforms, and rectifying the lack of level boarding.  This should be happening anyway.  It solves the staffing problem as the guard will again always be in the right spot (once we move to a guards always at the end operating model).

QR's main issue is failing to have a concept of operations that involves maximising passenger numbers.  It's all about what can be done on the cheap, what can be done easily, what suits themselves logistically etc.  Never about the customer experience - not really.
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RowBro

Quote from: SurfRail on September 24, 2023, 11:17:22 AMSo we should be progressively moving the assisted boarding point to the end of the platforms, and rectifying the lack of level boarding.

So if they want to board at the front of the train does the driver have to get out to assist them?

SurfRail

I don't see why that's an issue.

What if a PWD wants to board the last carriage of a train in Melbourne?
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HappyTrainGuy

What happens if one wants to board at the front/rear at Eagle Junction, Goodna, Virginia etc?

SurfRail

A) This is why we should be standardising things and fixing defective station layouts instead of just persisting with them forever while the adjacent motorways get upgraded.

B) These are edge cases where platform staff can still be deployed.  The current operating model on the other hand requires us to p%ss away money paying people to be on the platform when the guard could be doing that job in most cases if the accessible boarding point was moved to the end of the platform (same way it works at every station in Melbourne).  A few edges cases don't invalidate the concept.
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Jonno

 
Quote from: SurfRail on September 22, 2023, 14:26:36 PM^ The busway does have the advantage of going to (generally) more useful and more populated places than large chunks of the railway.  Stations like Holland Park West and Greenslopes are the exceptions.

There is absolutely no impediment to running 15 minute headways from the city to the following locations in both directions all week long, apart from potentially staffing.

- Ipswich
- Springfield Central
- Kuraby
- Manly (Cleveland possible but with varying degrees of reliability)
- Airport
- Sandgate (Shorncliffe possible but with varying degrees of reliability)
- Kippa-Ring
- Ferny Grove

Caboolture, and Beenleigh / Gold Coast I think have some more issues given lack of track capacity but 15 minute headways in one direction can be done (for instance to minimise crowding on services to the Gold Coast in the morning on weekends and public holidays and heading back in the afternoon).

Excuses from QR need to be strongly challenged because other railways don't have these perpetual issues and are run to maximise their utility to the public.
Do we know how many additional km of service this would require and/or to match Perths 100% of stations.

HappyTrainGuy

Quote from: SurfRail on September 25, 2023, 08:52:23 AMA) This is why we should be standardising things and fixing defective station layouts instead of just persisting with them forever while the adjacent motorways get upgraded.

B) These are edge cases where platform staff can still be deployed.  The current operating model on the other hand requires us to p%ss away money paying people to be on the platform when the guard could be doing that job in most cases if the accessible boarding point was moved to the end of the platform (same way it works at every station in Melbourne).  A few edges cases don't invalidate the concept.

There have been a number of good people and intentions within qr that have tried to get standardisation done over the years. However it does not help when you have outside influences stacking the deck with yes men and politicians dictating your infrastructure plans. TMR with NGR designing DOO trains configured for non DOO setup on a non DOO network (even if the network goes DOO they all have to have internal refits on cars 1 and 6. They are the only rollingstock besides the 120 that are not compliant from an internal perspective). TMR/state gov L2P. Treasury with ATP suburban area/NCL upgrades/tilt trains. State postponing the Caboolture-Nambour quad realignment. MBRL removing the extra platform/triple north and stabling connection/nwtc provisions/signalling. Ministers ranting on about 7 car trains despite most people at QR saying it's not economically viable to do but to look into it because it's an election issue. Just to name a few. 

Jonno


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