The Kenmore Rail Bypass

[#Metro]

Concept: The Kenmore Rail Bypass

Service Summary

Concept: Construct a rail bypass by lifting the existing Springfield Line over the Centenary motorway and
constructing a new rail line following the M5 Centenary Motorway through Mt Ommaney, partially in the reserved Kenmore Bypass
Corridor then into a tunnel portal to a reconstructed and DDA-compliant Indooroopilly Station complete with bus interchange.

Route and Type - Commuter Rail 12.8 km approx. Travel time is expected to be the same as the current Springfield
alignment or slightly faster due to new alignment built to modern standards.

Basic Frequency - every 15 minutes or better all day.

Service Areas: Richlands, Sumner Park, Mt Ommaney Centre, Jindalee, Kenmore,
Fig Tree Pocket, Indooroopilly. (Five new stations and one reconstructed station at Indooroopilly).
Viaduct and underground tunneling required at some locations.

Concept Map: The Kenmore Rail Bypass

Comments:

The Centenary Suburbs are established suburbs with poor access to rail. Current transport arrangements consist of a
weak array of low-frequency bus routes supplemented by peak-hour-only rocket buses that sit in congested traffic.
The quality of bus services in this area are severely constrained by (a) traffic congestion on the M5 and Coronation Drive
corridors; (b) the overall geography, and (c) by the lack of a major DDA-compliant bus-rail interchange at Indooroopilly.

The corridor partly sits within a highly constrained geographic 'funnel' bounded by the Brisbane River on one side and
Mount Coot-tha on the other (pinch point). Any motorway projects in this area will simply accelerate traffic flow into the congested Moggill Road and M5 Centenary Motorways causing backing-up on the road network.

This rail project will improve transport by removing traffic from local arterial roads and on to rail, cause a simplification and quality
improvement of the local bus network, and reduce the cost of sitting BCC buses in congestion all the way to the Brisbane CBD. It will
also make use of the train paths or slots for new train services created by the completion of Cross River Rail. Centenary residents will
have the option for bi-directional commuting as jobs are located both at the Brisbane CBD and at the Springfield CBD.

This rail project will remove the need for a Kenmore Bypass Motorway (est. motorway cost $1 bn). It is recommended that this project
be constructed with an optional bridge between Riverhills and Bellbowrie to permit the benefits of full bus network integration at Mt Ommaney to extend to Riverhills and Bellbowrie.

TOD opportunities exist at Jindalee, Mt Ommaney and Kenmore if the areas immediately around these stations are rezoned from low density to medium-high density. The declaration of a State Priority Development Area (PDA) around stations is one option to achieve
this outcome (as done with Cross River Rail).

Estimated cost (excluding Bellbowrie-Riverhills Bridge): $2.8-3 billion

Image

[verbatim9]

A metro to Kenmore that has been talked about for a while is the best option, as it passes points of interests, shopping centres, densely populated areas and educational hubs

It will also provide an East West connection that can speed up overall trip times as well as provide an alternative route to the city.

It can be built now to run Bne Metro which can be converted to a fully automatic metro running on tracks in the future.

Servicing UQ, St Lucia (IHS and St Peter's) , Indooroopilly Station, Indooroopilly State School, Chapel Hill, Kenmore Central and Kenmore Village.

[verbatim9]

Concept: The Kenmore Rail Bypass

Service Summary

Concept: Construct a rail bypass by lifting the existing Springfield Line over the Centenary motorway and
constructing a new rail line following the M5 Centenary Motorway through Mt Ommaney, partially in the reserved Kenmore Bypass
Corridor then into a tunnel portal to a reconstructed and DDA-compliant Indooroopilly Station complete with bus interchange.

Route and Type - Commuter Rail 12.8 km approx. Travel time is expected to be the same as the current Springfield
alignment or slightly faster due to new alignment built to modern standards.

Basic Frequency - every 15 minutes or better all day.

Service Areas: Richlands, Sumner Park, Mt Ommaney Centre, Jindalee, Kenmore,
Fig Tree Pocket, Indooroopilly. (Five new stations and one reconstructed station at Indooroopilly).
Viaduct and underground tunneling required at some locations.


Concept Map: The Kenmore Rail Bypass

Comments:

The Centenary Suburbs are established suburbs with poor access to rail. Current transport arrangements consist of an
weak array of low-frequency bus routes supplemented by peak-hour-only rocket buses that sit in congested traffic.
The quality of bus services in this area are severely constrained by (a) traffic congestion on the M5 and Coronation Drive
corridors; (b) the overall geography, and (c) by the lack of a major DDA-compliant bus-rail interchange at Indooroopilly.

The entire corridor sits within a highly constrained geographic corridor or funnel bounded by the Brisbane River on one side and
Mount Coot-tha on the other. Any motorway projects in this area will simply accelerate traffic flow into the congested Moggill Road
and M5 Centenary Motorways causing backing-up on the road network.

This rail project will improve transport by removing traffic from local arterial roads and on to rail, cause a simplification and quality
improvement of the local bus network, and reduce the cost of sitting BCC buses in congestion all the way to the Brisbane CBD. It will
also make use of the train paths or slots for new train services created by the completion of Cross River Rail. Centenary residents will
have the option for bi-directional commuting as jobs are located both at the Brisbane CBD and at the Springfield CBD.

This rail project will remove the need for a Kenmore Bypass Motorway (est. motorway cost $1 bn). It is recommended that this project
be constructed with an optional bridge between Riverhills and Bellbowrie to permit the benefits of full bus network integration at Mt Ommaney to extend to Riverhills and Bellbowrie.

TOD opportunities exist at Jindalee, Mt Ommaney and Kenmore if the areas immediately around these stations are rezoned from low density to medium-high density. The declaration of a State Priority Development Area (PDA) around stations is one option to achieve
this outcome (as done with Cross River Rail).

Estimated cost (excluding Bellbowrie-Riverhills Bridge): $2.8-3 billion

Image

This is option is far too costly. The River Hills bus service can be extended to Darra Station for the fraction of the cost and run 20 mins or better from 6 am to midnight 7 days.

A metro from Kenmore to UQ connecting East to West and to the North will provide more patronage than the lower density of the Centenary suburbs.

[verbatim9]

Bellbowrie and Moggill just require a bridge to catch a bus or cycle on a segregated cycle way to either Wacol or Darra. If a full bridge for all traffic does happen so be it! As long as they build a segregated cycle way along side that runs all the way.

[verbatim9]

I think the State and Federal Government are likely to build a bridge at Bellbowrie than investigate an expensive rail solution as proposed.

[#Metro]

I think the State and Federal Government are likely to build a bridge at Bellbowrie than investigate an expensive rail solution as proposed.

I think all options are expensive. A bridge between Bellbowrie and Riverhills is obvious and probably justified now, independently of this concept. The barrier is that people want to use such a bridge for themselves, but not for their neighbours (who might generate traffic).

It is helpful to focus on what value this brings to the table and the type of value (e.g. more motorways funneling into fixed-capacity road corridors leading to the CBD vs building patronage on the Springfield line and possibly 3 TODs).

If you read what TMR has planned for the Kenmore area, their contribution to public and active transport is a motorway with just a cycle path next to it.    :bi

Cycle paths are welcome, but I think we will need a lot more than that.

TMR Kenmore (Road) Bypass plans
"Proposed 4-lane [road] bypass (2 lanes in each direction) linking Moggill Road to the Centenary Motorway."
https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/Kenmore-Bypass-Planning-Study.aspx

[Cazza]

How about we focus on getting some sort of capacity and speed upgrades sorted to the Gold and Sunshine Coasts as well as decent, regular rail up the range to Toowoomba then maybe we can talk about rail lines duplicating existing quad rail lines through low density areas that merely require a bus network review and improved feeder buses?

Edit: adding a 4th electrified track and platform through Oxley plus remodelling the Darra Junction to allow Up-Up-Down-Down services would go so far in terms of capacity and reliability upgrades and be a fraction of the cost!

Pair that with proper quality feeder buses from Riverhills, Mt Ommaney, Sinnamon Park, Inala and Forest Lake and you truly have a recipe for success.

[verbatim9]

Anything to utilise Darra station better

[#Metro]

How about we focus on getting some sort of capacity and speed upgrades sorted to the Gold and Sunshine Coasts as well as decent, regular rail up the range to Toowoomba then maybe we can talk about rail lines duplicating existing quad rail lines through low-density areas that merely require a bus network review and improved feeder buses?

The bus connections are much easier with rail behind Mt Ommaney Shopping Centre.
The same can be said for Indooroopilly, which would be reconstructed to have a bus interchange and straight platforms.

Bus network excerpt (vis Brizcommuter)

Edit: If there were a rail station at Jindalee, most buses could load their passengers into the rail network there. They could then continue through suburbs such as Sinnamon Park and Seventeen Mile Rocks to Ipswich line stations.

Adding rail stations makes things so much simpler.


http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2013/03/more-of-brisbane-city-councils-not.html

There are enough residents there and the density in the Centenary Suburbs is fine.
It would build Springfield Line patronage significantly IMHO.

[verbatim9]

I think the State and Federal Government are likely to build a bridge at Bellbowrie than investigate an expensive rail solution as proposed.

I think all options are expensive. A bridge between Bellbowrie and Riverhills is obvious and probably justified now, independently of this concept. The barrier is that people want to use such a bridge for themselves, but not for their neighbours (who might generate traffic).

It is helpful to focus on what value this brings to the table and the type of value (e.g. more motorways funneling into fixed-capacity road corridors leading to the CBD vs building patronage on the Springfield line and possibly 3 TODs).

If you read what TMR has planned for the Kenmore area, their contribution to public and active transport is a motorway with just a cycle path next to it. 

Cycle paths are welcome, but I think we will need a lot more than that.

TMR Kenmore (Road) Bypass plans
"Proposed 4-lane [road] bypass (2 lanes in each direction) linking Moggill Road to the Centenary Motorway."
https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/Kenmore-Bypass-Planning-Study.aspx

At least a bridge at Bellbowrie can have a toll to satisfy all in the community. I don't think people of Centenary would go for a train line and land acquisitions. Centenery suburbs has one of the highest car ownership rates in Queensland, despite improved bus services over the years. Many people prefer to drive there. At least providing an extension of the River hills express to Darra station will provide off-peak travellers the option to transfer to the train.

[verbatim9]

Lets see what happens over the next few months with election promises and the Federal Budget. There are likely to be a few surprises.

[AnonymouslyBad]

I would love for this to be a thing!
But it's pretty foamy

There's so many priorities for rail development in SEQ, and CBD to Darra is one of the very few decent services. In a perfect world this proposal should exist just like a dozen other train lines should exist but it's a hell of an expensive way to avoid fixing their bus network!

[#Metro]

At least a bridge at Bellbowrie can have a toll to satisfy all in the community. I don't think people of Centenary would go for a train line and land acquisitions. Centenery suburbs has one of the highest car ownership rates in Queensland, despite improved bus services over the years. Many people prefer to drive there.

Which improved bus services were those?

Route 452 already goes to Darra station as a feeder but this service is poor (8 services per day, peak only) and also it fails to combine markets / join up multiple destinations so is only really useful for passengers going to Darra rather than Mt Ommaney/UQ/Toowong/CBD/Springfield. This guarantees low patronage for the route.

Land acquisitions would be minimal given that it is mostly within an existing transport corridor. Rail costs more but the ultimate capacity is much higher and therefore will max out much later than with a road expansion.

Expanded motorways and roads also need land as well.

It is unsurprising that car ownership is higher when that's what you need to get around a place with poor PT, or PT that simply sits in traffic congestion in addition to the long wait due to poor frequency.

Route 452 >> https://jp.translink.com.au/plan-your-journey/timetables/bus/T/452

[Gazza]

I think the concept of a rail bypass is a bit wasteful because there is already a quad track from Darra, so you can already efficiently segregate express and local patterns, so under this scenario you'd have 6 track pairs feeding into 4 at Indro.

So id echo other remarks that if you did rail here, it would be an extension of a future west end/ UQ metro rather than on the QR network.
(And in fact, you could theoretically do a little auto metro with its depot somewhere out west, and shuttle the line to indro, and then in the future build an Indro UQ, CBD leg.

In terms of rail access, i think Sumner station would do poorly, ones in industrial areas usually do, and its close to Darra.

Mt Ommaney, yep.

Jindallee, yep.

The next station is only 1km north in a low density area, nup.

In the interim, 7km of bus priority Mt Ommaney to Indooroopilly

[#Metro]

I think the concept of a rail bypass is a bit wasteful because there is already a quad track from Darra, so you can already efficiently segregate express and local patterns, so under this scenario you'd have 6 track pairs feeding into 4 at Indro.

It would be six into four but the services are mostly what is already being run on the Springfield line.

Perhaps that quad track at Darra can be an opportunity to further separate freight rail from passenger rail, at least to Indooroopilly.

I don't think bus metro extension to this area is a good option as it would require the construction of a dedicated busway and wouldn't have the connectivity out to Springfield (and beyond). If the metro vehicle is going to stay stuck on the busway, as is the plan with the current BCC bus-metro vehicles then you will have to catch a feeder bus to it anyway.

We also don't have a map of this bus metro option either, so it is hard to really say much about it.

If we are talking about a rail-metro here then it can just be connected and converted over similar to how the Epping to Chatswood link was converted in Sydney.

We don't need to wait for a metro for this to happen.

[ozbob]

It is important that the Springfield services stay on the quad, as eventually it will enable 24/7 express pattern on the Ippy.

We have enough deficits with the existing network that need sorting, before this sort of thing can be seriously entertained.

[Gazza]

I don't think bus metro extension to this area is a good option as it would require the construction of a dedicated busway and wouldn't have the connectivity out to Springfield (and beyond).

So?

I imagine a trunk route would go from Darra to Indro via Mt ommaney.
If someone from Springfield wants to get to Mt Ommaney or vice versa (a 2nd tier shopping center) then its a quick change at Darra and a short 3.5km bus ride.
If they are going further up the line to Indro, stay on the train.
If its intermediate places like Kenmore Rd, bus is adequate because thats just suburbia.

Wouldn't be a dedicated busway, bus lanes and bus jumps would be enough to make the service reliable.

It would be six into four but the services are mostly what is already being run on the Springfield line.

Whats the service pattern?
4tph via Mt Ommaney?
2 or 4tph express Milton Indro Darra then All stations to Ipswich
4tph All stops to Darra?

Or does Ipswich revert to a 4tph all stops service?

Perhaps that quad track at Darra can be an opportunity to further separate freight rail from passenger rail, at least to Indooroopilly.

Freight will go via Kagaru post inland rail so it seems like building this would create a stranded asset.

If you have a track pair reaching capacity, it can make sense to select a bypass route, eg as was done for Sydney airport link, or CRR, but in this case there is plenty of capacity Indro to Darra, so such a line would have to stand up almost purley on the patronage at Mt Ommaney and Jindalee stations effectively, since it wouldnt be performing any capacity role or time saving role (So bypass is a bit of a misnomer)

[Gazza]

However, one bypass i can get around is one from Riverview to Darra:

There is a long term plan for a triple to Redbank.

IMO instead it should be done so that a 2nd track pair runs from Riverview, following the Goodna Bypass gazetted corridor, then cut through the prison / sewage farm land and rejoin at Darra. This would allow future toowoomba services to overtake all stations trains and also shave a good bit of distance off the journey.

But the kicker is that it could be possible to provide a elevated station at priors pocket to service moggil, and simply divert the 444 to terminate there, but this is not crucial.

[#Metro]

Do you have some maps?

Service pattern is to be decided but Ipswich express City to Indooroopilly plus the frequency boost to every 15 min off peak all day should compensate.

Brisbane is already building a rail bypass, that's what Cross River Rail is - taking GC and Beenleigh services out of Southbank and to new stations.

Wouldn't be a dedicated busway, bus lanes and bus jumps would be enough to make the service reliable.

The completion of Cross River Rail enables the Rail network to transform. We've had 20 years of tinkering with bus solutions and really that bus priority isn't the transformation needed to boost patronage.

The northern busway is a good example - bits and pieces with compromised sections in between and expensive as rail. NSW also realised this when they built metro to Castle Hill and the hills district. Previously that corridor had express buses on motorways with some priority but in the end it didn't cut it.

I've been careful to label this a concept not a proposal as it really is intended to stimulate wider discussion. 👍

[Gazza]

Also i have a question, with the design shown, how do you get from Ipswich to Mt Ommaney, or Springfield to Sherwood?

[#Metro]

Just like Cross River Rail bypassed stations are bypassed.

Buses which no longer have to go to the CBD would flow across both rail lines linking them up, perhaps like your own cross town proposal?

As for Ipswich, that depends on how far construction of the Springfield line has taken place, as that is planned to also go to Ipswich.

[JimmyP]

The proposed Sumner station would be better off being a Darra West station, with Darra possibly rebuilt to be on the straight section connecting on the western end to the new Darra West station. That would still keep the eastern end of a rebuilt Darra station within easy reach of the shopping strip, car parking and (hopefully) allow room for a new bus station area too.

[Gazza]

Just like Cross River Rail bypassed stations are bypassed.

Buses which no longer have to go to the CBD would flow across both rail lines linking them up, perhaps like your own cross town proposal?

As for Ipswich, that depends on how far construction of the Springfield line has taken place, as that is planned to also go to Ipswich.

So you are saying there's no interchange station like Boggo Rd?

So no longer possible to get from Springfield to say Corinda?

[#Metro]

The proposed Sumner station would be better off being a Darra West station, with Darra possibly rebuilt to be on the straight section connecting on the western end to the new Darra West station. That would still keep the eastern end of a rebuilt Darra station within easy reach of the shopping strip, car parking and (hopefully) allow room for a new bus station area too.

I'm really interested in your suggestion and would like to know more. It might help tweak the concept.

I did consider some sort of Darra Junction station but was concerned that the rail lines were on two different levels, one being up in the air on an overpass and one on the ground. I wasn't sure how that could be engineered (if at all). I guess if Melbourne has train stations up on viaducts it is possible (?).

Here is a map of the crossover section. Would it be worth inserting another station somewhere around here? Darra station is about 850 m East of the crossover.

[Gazza]

What do you mean you weren't sure if an elevated station was possible?

Springfield Central? Domestic Station? International Station? Hope Island will be too.


What about cities that have extensive elevated systems like the Chicago El or Vancouver Skytrain

There's heaps of stations that cross at different levels worldwide


Here is one ive used in Japan

https://maps.app.goo.gl/trbwmzxsxUjSrJPp6

And of course Berlin haupbahnhof

Berlin
https://maps.app.goo.gl/xJpPLEHv1r3n7F8z6

And surely you knew about the commercial Broadway station in Vancouver, which has an elevated platform with a link to a perpendicular ground level platform
Vancouver
https://maps.app.goo.gl/dHX8mN7KtvbmUnf9A

.
In Australia you've got Wolli Creek.

Here in Brisbane Buranda has the rail passing over the busway on different levels.
Conceptually it wouldn't work any differently if the busway was rail.

You're surely not saying that you've been a member of RBOT for like a decade but only heard of multi level stations for the first time today?   

[#Metro]

This is what "Express Buses" and "Bus Priority" looks like in the area: 

(this example is Kenmore)

You want more of this? It's cheap! 



(Image above shows a stops interspaced by a motorway and very poor pedestrian access)

[Gazza]

Ok and what about the whole thing of you not knowing about elevated stations?
Are we just gonna ignore that?

[#Metro]

How safe and comfortable do people feel about these places?

One of these bus stops is located on a motorway exit ramp - so as all the cars rush by you can be reminded why you should have taken car instead...

[Cazza]

Are we just gonna ignore that?

Yes apparently, yes we are.

Metro, I recently travelled to Fig Tree Pocket "siding" on a PM express bus the other month and agree that the pedestrian access is poor. But the fact is that even the most basic pedestrian treatments would so much to create a nicer environment. Trees between the bus lane and highway to reduce traffic noise, more bus shelters and covered walkways/access paths for weather protection, and even just some sort of acknowledgement that pedestrians may be crossing a highway entrance with a posted speed limit of 90km/h...

https://www.google.com/maps/@-27.5157077,152.955132,3a,75y,64.84h,74.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sn8Bh6540MDRUWeFO8iNlsg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Here's a fun game, try and spot the pedestrian crossing point. I'll give you a clue, it's behind the trees and just in front of that huge 90 sign

At least it's not like the M2 Stations down in Sydney where you are crammed in the middle of the noisy motorway with no greenery at all- just air pollution inside a concrete jungle.

https://www.google.com/maps/@-33.759772,151.0418427,3a,73.2y,299.34h,82.17t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1srlXVuSV_02aqnImrKhYVog!2e0!5s20201201T000000!7i16384!8i8192

[#Metro]

Yes apparently, yes we are.

Just waiting for JimmyP's and others' feedback for now before tweaking.

Right now the feedback is to remove Kenmore and shift Sumners Park to the crossover (with elevated station) and a new station underneath
on the Ipswich Line ('Darra West').

Metro, I recently travelled to Fig Tree Pocket "siding" on a PM express bus the other month and agree that the pedestrian access is poor. But the fact is that even the most basic pedestrian treatments would so much to create a nicer environment. Trees between the bus lane and highway to reduce traffic noise, more bus shelters and covered walkways/access paths for weather protection, and even just some sort of acknowledgement that pedestrians may be crossing a highway entrance with a posted speed limit of 90km/h...

That would be a cosmetic approach - the substance is that PT in a Priority A (or even B) corridor wasn't planned and didn't go in.

Let's have a look at how we got here - this area was once farmland and then developed in the 1960s (see image).

In 1959, Queensland's Centenary Year, a  land developer named Hooker Rex planned the Centenary project. The project was a suburban development proposal that included a number of neighbourhoods with their own services and facilities that are capable of providing for all the needs of its residents.

You can see what the area looked like - with this huge development, Class A Priority Public Transport didn't go in - and hasn't been present for 60 years since development. Yet everything else went in - motorways, houses, shopping centres, schools etc.

So its not a surprise the entire area has major transport issues - an entirely foreseeable outcome. And yet the entire public dialogue is about motorways and road upgrades.


Photo credit: Facebook/Brisbane Retro

Source: The Rich History of How Centenary was Formed
https://centenarytoday.com.au/rich-history-how-centenary-was-formed/

All of this means locals write comments like this:
https://www.facebook.com/jesspughMP

[Gazza]

So the view I sort of take is as follows.

-The Centenary highway is a bit "off center" to the bulk of development there

-Even at the arse end of the area (Eg Riverhills or the western end of Horizon Drive) You're still only 5km from Darra, given the low density pattern of development a new line will still be be heavily dependent on feeder buses and park and ride, so if they are already on those modes, just go to Darra.

-The main benefits would be the stations at Mt Ommaney and Jindalee. Sumner Park is a waste of time because stations in industrial areas frequently get single digit levels of patronage (Bindha, Holmview etc) The one in Kenmore is a long way from the actual heart of Kenmore, so again would really just exist for feeder buses and park and ride.

-Given the line will not improve capacity or save time, it would need to be justified on the basis of additional patronage.

-The MBRL was $1b, but added rail access for a catchment of around 100,000 people.

-This is quoted as being $2-3b for a catchment of around 25,000 people.

[#Metro]

You've already seen in the resident comments that they don't use the Ipswich line. They don't use it.

With a multi-suburb development like this, you would have at least preserved a Priority A corridor for public transport in the 1960's.

Unlike the Redcliffe line, this is adding stations on the way and combining markets.

While it won't speed up services for passengers entering the line at Springfield, it will save time for Centenary Suburbs residents

entering the line at the new stations and avoid the time and unreliability of buses on roads. Over time it will also save costs

in not having to run buses to the CBD and sit in congestion, and avoid the costs of motorway expansion.

Let the residents of the Centenary suburbs comment on the concept and see what their thoughts are.

As for costs:

- Some tunneling needs to happen to get the alignment under Indro shopping centre ($)
- Indooroopilly needs a bus interchange and straight platforms ($)
- A bridge over the Brisbane River for the train would need to be constructed ($)

There is land for expansion in the M5 Motorway Corridor so I do not expect many resumptions.

[Gazza]

Why do the buses have to run to the CBD? They could terminate at Indro.

[#Metro]

Why do the buses have to run to the CBD? They could terminate at Indro.

Will these buses be mostly running on Priority A, Priority B or Priority C?

[Cazza]

You've already seen in the resident comments that they don't use the Ipswich line. They don't use it.

I mean aside from the fact that this is wrong (last time I checked, the patronage counts for both Routes 451 and 452 is above 0 and Darra Station just received an "upgrade" to the PnR), maybe the reason it isn't being used to its full potential is that the vast majority of the Centenary currently have no physical way to access the rail line (literally a stones throw away) via bus outside of peak times...

Over time it will also save costs in not having to run buses to the CBD and sit in congestion.

But if they feed Darra Station, they won't need to send a gazillion bus routes into the CBD, as Gazza said:

Why do the buses have to run to the CBD? They could terminate at Indro.

And you will save costs by not building a somewhat redundant piece of capital infrastructure in the first place. It's all well and good to spend BILLIONS on shiny new infrastructure, but when all that is required is just a few MILLION for a bus network overhaul and bus priority across the region, it's hard to see this project stack up when you will be getting pretty similar value for 1/1000th of the cost.

I'd much rather see money put into improving regional rail to reduce the need for intercity, highway travel in SEQ (and save large amounts of money in the process regarding fuel, operating costs, economic efficiencies, road maintenance, healthcare costs, road trauma etc. etc. etc.)

Or a proper automated underground subway for the inner-city, linking Indro, UQ, West End, CBD, Kangaroo Point, Newstead, Bulimba, Hamilton Village, Skygate and potentially Toombul or the Airport. That's a media release I can get behind.

[Cazza]

Why do the buses have to run to the CBD? They could terminate at Indro.

Will these buses be mostly running on Priority A, Priority B or Priority C?

Slap down some bus lanes on the Western Fwy with any future widening projects and Bob's your uncle.

[#Metro]

And you will save costs by not building a somewhat redundant piece of capital infrastructure in the first place. It's all well and good to spend BILLIONS on shiny new infrastructure, but when all that is required is just a few MILLION for a bus network overhaul and bus priority across the region, it's hard to see this project stack up when you will be getting pretty similar value for 1/1000th of the cost.

Slap down some bus lanes on the Western Fwy with any future widening projects and Bob's your uncle.

So more of this? Would that bring similar value vs a train line? Similar passenger/patronage levels?



Bus improvements are fine - I just think they are a stop gap, not a more permanent solution.

Remember - we already have express rocket buses via a underground tunnel tollway, and these don't seem to have moved the needle on PT in this area.

[Gazza]

Why do the buses have to run to the CBD? They could terminate at Indro.

Will these buses be mostly running on Priority A, Priority B or Priority C?

Slap down some bus lanes on the Western Fwy with any future widening projects and Bob's your uncle.

Basically this. The distances involved are not that great, so the time difference between Class A & B is not huge.

Buses will still need to be picking up passengers in the actual suburbia along Sumners Rd and Horizon Drive because those areas are not in walking distance of any station, present or proposed.

Buses then join the Centenary and run express to Indro for 5km, so shoulder bus lanes at an 80km speed limit would offer a similar travel time to heavy rail

[timh]

-The main benefits would be the stations at Mt Ommaney and Jindalee. Sumner Park is a waste of time because stations in industrial areas frequently get single digit levels of patronage (Bindha, Holmview etc) The one in Kenmore is a long way from the actual heart of Kenmore, so again would really just exist for feeder buses and park and ride.

-This is quoted as being $2-3b for a catchment of around 25,000 people.

I have issues with the Kenmore end of this idea as well. Running some kind of rail along the Centenary Highway alignment is fine, and stations at Jindalee and Mount Ommaney make sense.

As for costs:

- Some tunneling needs to happen to get the alignment under Indro shopping centre
- Indooroopilly needs a bus interchange and straight platforms

The drive structure near Indro also seems very difficult from an engineering perspective. Land in that area is expensive, and very densely built up, so resumptions would be costly if you wanted to run it at-grade approaching Indro.
Looking at your map, that whole northern section looks extremely difficult to pull off. If anything I'd say the project would end up being more than $2b-$3b. Try $4b. Especially if you're now including a whole rebuild of Indro station, and a bus interchange.
On that note, how are you envisioning the Indro end of this to look? Does the new line dive north of the station, with underground platforms at Indro? (think the Eastern suburbs line in Sydney at Redfern). Or are you using the existing platforms and diving somewhere south of the station (good luck, there's a river in the way).

- A bridge over the Brisbane River for the train would need to be constructed
There is land for expansion in the M5 Motorway Corridor so I do not expect many resumptions.

I'm not sure if you know the area well, but that whole area along the M5 north of the river is very hilly. So for a high-speed, heavy rail alignment like the one you've drawn, you would either need very significant earthworks, not to mention the cost of some kind of tunnel heading towards Indro. I don't even think your plan of running along the Western Freeway alignment would work, as I would hazard a guess that the grades and curves are not appropriate for heavy rail.
If we take a look at a project like the Centenary Bridge duplication, I think that's going to raise further problems. That project is costing a quarter of a billion by itself, so there's a big chunk of money right there for a new rail bridge. Not to mention the duplicated bridge is taking up a bunch of space at the landings on each side of the river, making a rail alignment through there even trickier. Dollars are adding up....

So more of this? Would that bring similar value vs a train line? Similar passenger/patronage levels?



Bus improvements are fine - I just think they are a stop gap, not a more permanent solution.

Remember - we already have express rocket buses via a underground tunnel tollway, and these don't seem to have moved the needle on PT in this area.

No, not more of that. Something better than that.
While as I've said above, I agree in principle that some kind of rail alignment through that area would be nice, it's not something justifiable at the moment considering the population density vs. the cost. As I said before, maybe in 30 years time? When the land use in the area demands the high costs be spent. In the meantime, as Cazza said, dedicated buslanes on the M5 would adequate, with maybe some nice bus stations on the way. I'm thinking something more like the Park Ridge station. And maybe the weird station at Fig Tree pocket could get a pedestrian overpass structure, some better wayfinding signage, a kiss and ride, some bike parking, etc. Make it more like a quasi-busway station. Add another one of these stations at Jindalee with a small park and ride and you've got yourself a bus priority corridor with high quality stations.

[JimmyP]

Very crude drawing of what i'd be thinking were something like this to go ahead. Would require a rebuild of the junctions around Darra to work though.
Would work similar to Wolli Creek. Red lines are rough guides of the platforms, with blue being the pedestrian connection between the two (very rough drawing).