TODs (Transit Oriented Developments)

[SteelPan]

what is this thing with "canyons" you see pop up in "Brissy" from time to time..... :conf....if you want feel the sunlight on your rosy red cheeks all day....probably best not spend your days in and around the central business district......go to the beach....a nice park in the 'burbs......it's not rocket science.....or is it 

Samford will hopefully, one day again see a rail service, but it's "some years off" as in your grandkids-kids might see it.....might.....that sort of vision doesn't exist anywhere near the corridors of power in this state...the vision got lost in the shadows of those dastardly canyons..... not the canyons...anything but the canyons.....

[HappyTrainGuy]

There is sweet FA at Samford let alone a dense enough population to support a heavy rail service.

[#Metro]

I read somewhere that the Dutch approach is that they build all infrastructure first, including rail, then the houses go in.

[verbatim9]

^^Yep like Electrified Trains out to Toowoomba being built in conjunction with inland rail. Delivered together. Create new proposed TOD enroute. Student hub @ Gatton ? 

[SurfRail]

There are plenty of places we should be developing before flood prone rural land 100km from the city.

[James]

I read somewhere that the Dutch approach is that they build all infrastructure first, including rail, then the houses go in.

It's Samford. Due to geographical constraints, constraints with transit & planning decisions, I can't see anything above the current density going in to the area until at least 2050.

Let's look at Samford. A mere 20km from the CBD, yet we're developing areas like Park Ridge instead of Samford. Why?
1. Rich people. It's no Brookfield, but the area isn't exactly impoverished. Million dollar blocks & acreage everywhere. Rich people donate to political parties (of all colours) and can afford to run campaigns against politicians. Poor people just get shafted, unless there's hippies, see: song and dance in West End over pretty much anything.
2. Transit links - ordinary. Enoggera Rd? Waterworks Rd? Terrible. Slow, painful commutes into the CBD. Nearest mass transit is 6km away at Ferny Grove. No motorway for miles - which like it or not, is always a key selling point for any new development. Springfield's development is aided by the M5, then the railway line. Like it or not, the overwhelming majority of trips will still occur by car. It takes 45 minutes to get to Samford by car in the PM peak. It takes the same time to get to Park Ridge, despite it being 10km further out by road.
3. Geography. Who wants to buy into an area which either gets flooded, or cut off by floodwaters, every 1-2 years? Not me. I think the most recent bout of flooding out Yarrabilba way was a rude awakening for some people!

The reason Europe does decentralisation so well is because there is a lot more density in these townships, and often these townships are already very close together. In the Netherlands, the Hague and Haarlem (for example) are only 40km away, Amsterdam and Haarlem even less. In Brisbane, if you travel 40km, you're still in Brisbane.

[aldonius]

On (3), Samford isn't really impacted by flooding.

What happens is that there are rockslides onto Samford Rd through the range, although as the years go by the cliff face is getting further back from the roadway...

I've also known the Samford Rd/Kedron Brook bridge immediately outbound of Ferny Grove station to flood, but this happens less than once a year on average and it's fairly easy to go around via Patricks Rd.

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Inner-city living trend does nothing to curb car dependency

THE push for apartment-style living around Brisbane City Council public transport hubs has not reduced our dependency on cars, according to latest Australian Bureau of Statistics data.

Despite dozens of apartment blocks popping-up within a 5km radius of the CBD over the past decade, car ownership remains high in inner-city suburbs.

According to the ABS, there are 222,186 vehicles registered to 255,659 resident of inner-Brisbane, which stretches from Lutwyche to Woolloongabba and Bardon to Morningside.

It equates to 86 per cent of the people living within an hour's walk of the CBD owning a vehicle.

It outstrips the rate of ownership for people living north (Kedron to Brighton), south (Dutton Park to Drewvale), east (Murrarie to Cleveland) and west (Mt Coot-tha to Anstead) of the CBD where there are fewer highrise apartment blocks.

639 registered vehicles (83 per cent), while in the east 229,796 residents own 190,993 vehicles (83 per cent).

Head south, the most populated of the five areas, or west, and the proportion of registered vehicles per resident starts to dilute.

In the south, where 348,656 people call home, there are 259,534 registered cars (74.4 per cent) and out west there are only 126,014 vehicles for 186,113 residents - an ownership rate of only 67 per cent.

Town planner and Griffith University lecturer Dr Tony Matthews said just because people live within close proximity to public transport or near their place of work does not mean they will not need a car.

Inner-city dwellers are still likely to own a car despite being close to work and public transport.

Dr Matthews said the demographic that is attracted to inner-city highrise living are empty nesters or young professionals who are yet to start a family.

The latest figures are in line with other data centred around populations living in transport orientated developments.

"There is research suggest that people who live in a TOD still use their cars as much and drive as much," Mr Matthews said.

"They live in these areas because they have the fall back of public transport but don't necessarily use it as their principle means of transit."

He said it's likely that no matter how many apartment blocks there are in Brisbane, it's unlikely to reduce our reliance on vehicles.

Mr Matthews said the public transport system is inadequate once you get beyond a 10km radius of the CBD and it certainly isn't a viable option for visiting places on the Gold or Sunshine Coasts.

"If you live in the city and you work in the city, you may not use your car Monday to Friday but you're still going to go out on the weekend and basically anywhere outside the inner suburbs you will need to drive.

"If you want to go to Mooloolaba or Burleigh Heads on public transport, you may as well forget it."

[verbatim9]

^^Getting to Burleigh is ok on PT Train to Varsity then bus. Effectively it's the type of PT. People are reluctant to use low frequency Public transport on weekends. Sometimes it's the mode of Public Transport. Light Rail and Heavy rail seem more popular by locals and travellers than a bus. "Plus the number of carparks in apartments can alter car ownership.'

[James]

^^Getting to Burleigh is ok on PT Train to Varsity then bus. Effectively it's the type of PT. People are reluctant to use low frequency Public transport on weekends. Sometimes it's the mode of Public Transport. Light Rail and Heavy rail seem more popular by locals and travellers than a bus. "Plus the number of carparks in apartments can alter car ownership.

The problem is the bus is slow. The bus meanders along Christine Ave at about 50km/h before it eventually gets to the coast. Your car gets up to 80km/h until starting to slow when you approach Burleigh itself.

The rail alignment from Beenleigh to Brisbane is also incredibly slow. It takes about 50 minutes by train to get out of Brisbane compared to 20 minutes in a car (off-peak). That's also ignoring that people in the inner city often have to connect to subsequent bus services, which can be a difficult process in itself. By comparison, the car just continues to make its way around the M3 "inner ring road" and take one home much faster.

If the train line ran straight down the M3/M1 from Park Road-ish to Beenleigh at 140km/h, you'd see a massive uptake in the rail option.

[SurfRail]

^ Indeed.

I'm at Robina.  Fastest trip time for me to get to Burleigh is usually around 35-40 minutes, with a train to Varsity Lakes and a connection there - usually a 765, but possibly a 753 or 757.  Made that very trip on Monday morning just after 6am (and it was still pretty well loaded).

[achiruel]

I wasn't quite sure where to put this, and I couldn't seem to find a similar topic elsewhere, but please feel free to direct me if that is the case.

Does RailBoT make any representations to councils or the State Government regarding land use? What is the State policy on this?

I am talking about things like having medium-high density housing around railway stations and main bus routes. IMO there should be a ban on new single dwelling approvals within ~800m (walk not direct) of railway stations, busway stations and BUZ or other HF bus routes.

I look at places like Fitzgibbon, on the eastern side of Carseldine Station, where pretty much everything west of Castlegrove Ave and south of Eungella Pl ought to be med-high density, and sure some is, but there is still quite a lot of single dwellings, that should not be permitted to take up such valuable real estate.

Just my 2c worth anyway. Wondering if others hold similar views?

[SurfRail]

My view is "largely yes".  However, as somebody with some experience in working on TODs for developers, it isn't all rosy cheeks and apple pie.  There is an enormous compliance and cost burden associated with developing a TOD, even a relatively simple one around a site that is basically open land, much more so around established precincts like Milton or South Bank (albeit I am not involved with either of those).  It is normally easier, more marketable and faster to develop land as small lots, duplexes or townhouses than to build a multiuse project with medium rise towers if there is a public transport interchange adjacent to it.  That's just a reality.  The inner city is a slightly different story, but we aren't exactly dealing with enormous amounts of detached housing near any inner city stations compared to what is being developed elsewhere.

Basic detached housing, no.  Mandatory higher densities, no.  The state also needs to stop insisting on taking so little risk and making it more difficult and less commercial to build these projects because it just results in developers taking their interest elsewhere.

[#Metro]

Hi achiruel,

Yes, RBOT has done so in the past, on the basis that double density doubles patronage all else equal.
You can read a position paper here https://backontrack.org/docs/tod/RBoT_TODSep16.pdf

I would not support banning single family / detached dwellings near transport hubs.
If you paid for the property then you should be able to use and enjoy it as you like (broadly).
A mandatory high density forced on such a land parcel may simply keep it empty or devalue it, both undesirable.

A new purpose-fit category of zoning, TOD would give landowners the option but not the obligation to develop land near transit hubs to a higher density. In this sense, it is "market-led".

Such a law is actually under consideration in San Francisco, USA called the SB 827:

https://www.vox.com/cities-and-urbanism/2018/2/23/17011154/sb827-california-housing-crisis

A sweeping new bill targets California's housing crisis
A chat with the activist who first dreamed up SB 827.

Now, there is a solution on the table that goes directly after this root cause. SB 827, a new bill before the California Senate, would require that all areas within a half-mile of a high-frequency transit stop, or within a quarter-mile of a bus or transit corridor, allow heights of at least 45 or 85 feet (depending on distance from transit, width of street, and other characteristics). That's roughly four to eight stories, far higher than what many local zoning commissions allow.

SB 827 would also waive any minimum parking requirements in those areas and prohibit any design requirement that would have the effect of arbitrarily lowering the square footage allowed on a lot.

It is good to see some areas of the world actively considering things that would elsewhere be seen as "too scary" to think or discuss about.

Measurement conversion

45 feet - 13.71 m
85 feet - 25.90 m
half-mile - 804 m

[red dragin]

Tender out for a TOD next to Mango Hill (North Lakes) railway station.

https://www.hpw.qld.gov.au/qtenders/tender/display/tender-details.do?CSRFNONCE=7D63A53913A933F94E00EA3B7C6C1BD7&id=24028&action=display-tender-details&returnUrl=%2Ftender%2Fsearch%2Ftender-search.do%3FCSRFNONCE%3D448C84EA75B9561F5BFF75136EF869BA%26amp%3Baction%3Dsearch-from-main-page%26amp%3Bkeywords%3Drail

The Coles complex nearby is already quite busy, despite being close to the North Lakes Westfield, as it is easier to access if you just want the groceries.

[#Metro]

A while ago I put up the idea of special TOD zoning around rail stations, and that it would be automatic, rather than the failing "boutique" approach which barely produces any medium density housing near rail stations.

Now there is a bill in California which seeks to do just that. SB 827

This opinion editorial article takes a negative position on the idea, but states the central point:

SB 827 would loosen or eliminate local restrictions on height, density, parking and design for residential properties within a half-mile of public transit. It would allow buildings ranging from four to eight stories tall in neighborhoods zoned for single-family houses.

(Half-mile = 800 m)

Yes, California has a housing crisis. But killing community planning isn't how democracy should work
http://www.latimes.com/la-ed-sb827-local-control-20180407-story.html

[achiruel]

The fact is, contrary to that article, that local residents and businesses have proven over and over again that they are largely unable to make decisions for the greater good and are primarily self-interested. NIMBism is everywhere in SEQld, and, it seems, in SoCal as well. That's why State Governments have been forced to act with a heavy hand.

[verbatim9]

https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/transit-retail-hitting-the-mark-as-train-stations-multiply-20180329-p4z6yz.html

Sydney Metro is delivering eight new metro stations which will be a bonanza for retailers as they capture the passing parade of passengers.

The same is happening in Melbourne, where the metro is being expanded and also creating a boom for retail outlets.

Transit hubs, like hospitals and airports, are the new frontiers for retailers.

Consumers are captive in hospitals and airports. However, they are also in a rush and need to grab things on the run in transit hubs.

[verbatim9]

^^They have the incorrect retail mix at Toowong. I noticed that the Pines Kitchen that replaced the old Sizzlers site went belly up. The retail space at that location needs to be divided up and retailers like 7-Eleven and other food outlets invited to take up lease. Its prime foot traffic capture with the right mix of retail.

[ozbob]

Ferny Grove has its own thread here > https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=76.0

[verbatim9]

Ferny Grove has its own thread here > https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=76.0

Thanks

[#Metro]

It's great to see this going ahead.

Shows that TOD demand isn't just inner city high density. More reason to have general TOD zoning.

[verbatim9]

Couriermail.com.au---> Bold plan to transform a barren block of land at Lutwyche into a lavish residential and retail precinct.

Bold plan changes busway stop into retail and residential hub
A barren block of land in Brisbane's inner-north could soon be a major drawcard if a visionary residential and retail hub, with hotel and cinemas, is passed by council.

A DEVELOPER has a bold plan to transform a barren block of land at Lutwyche into a lavish residential and retail precinct, containing a hotel and cinema complex.

Architects Conrad Gargett, on behalf of Marketplace Developments, has produced an impressive vision for 'Lamington Markets' on Lutwyche Rd.

The site covers 7332sq m and includes a vacant lot at 612 Lutwyche Rd that sits above the Northern busway, as well as 53 and 57 Lamington Ave which are, respectively, occupied by a unit block with 24 dwellings and a house.

It will basically be positioned diagonally opposite, and in competition with, Market Central Lutwyche which has just undergone a multimillion-dollar upgrade.

Conrad Gargett, which also designed heralded Coorparoo Square, claim the "two landmark" residential towers, containing 134 apartments, "reflects world class architecture and urban design outcomes benefiting the Brisbane community".

A rooftop recreational area with a pool is proposed on level 12 of the 'south' tower and a separate three-storey building in the northwestern corner of the site will contain commercial and retail businesses.

Rounding out the almost self-contained precinct, is an eight-screen cinema, a hotel, a supermarket, a retail hub, a health care facility containing the likes of a general practice, a dentist and radiology and pathology services, and 23 respite centre beds.

The proposed site at 612 Lutwyche Rd, Lutwyche is vacant although it was once home to retail outlets before it was acquired by the government for the construction of Airport Link and then later the Northern Busway.
The majority of the apartments will be two bedroom (74 units) while there will be 13 one bedroom dwellings, 37 three bedroom apartments and 10 containing four beds.

"The variation in unit types and price points will accommodate a range of household types thereby creating a diverse community," the development application stated.

"The proposed development will create a landmark destination within the heart of Lutwyche. The proposal offers fresh produce and boutique retail, food and drink, and recreational opportunities."

Even though it's directly adjacent to Lutwyche bus station, the site will cater for 571 vehicles, 277 of which will be set aside for non-residents, across six basement levels.

The vacant lot consisted of retail tenancies fronting Lutwyche Road prior to the site being acquired by the State Government for the Airport Link project and later re-sold after the construction of the Northern Busway which opened in 2012.

It's proposed a market hall will front Lutwyche Rd at ground level and include the hotel, restaurant, bar and dining area while an urban farm restaurant will be on level two.

The hotel is expected to operate from 10am to 11pm.

The development is intended to complement the extensive gentrification of Lutwyche over the past decade where more than a dozen multi-level residential buildings have opened and retirement villages are either in construction or have come online.

The application follows at least six pre-lodgement meetings with the council dating back to September 2014.

"The vision for the project has always been anchored in the elements of the design of the public realm and interface between a mix of land uses which contribute to a vibrant, well-used and accessible public space," the application stated.

"The notion of a seamless transition between tenancies and delivering a retail and commercial offering which provides a community market hall experience which is accessible to all members of the community is proposed."

[verbatim9]

^^At last a decent Transit Orientated Development at Lutwyche Station

[timh]

Yeah I'm really glad to see a TOD on that site. I think the cinema is a bit overkill but eh. This will probably get some NIMBY opposition but there's a fair few apartments that have gone in between Lutwyche and Kedron stations so maybe they will be more accepting.

I have some concerns though. Six basement levels and 14 stories!? Doesn't this site sit directly on top of the busway tunnel?? Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't see how this could physically work...

Mind you I'm probably wrong I'm sure the architects and engineers have thought of something as silly as this

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[Gazza]

The cross section literally shows how it fits around the tunnel.

[timh]

The cross section literally shows how it fits around the tunnel.

Oh yes it does. Sorry should have read that closer, forgive my stupidity

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[verbatim9]

Couriermal.com.au---> First stage of Geon Property's Albion Exchange approved by Brisbane City Council

First stage of Geon Property's Albion Exchange approved by Brisbane City Council
After having to go back to the drawing board, the first stage of a `city-shaping' development has been approved ensuring expansive green space and better access for cyclists and pedestrians.

THE first stage of a city-shaping development in Brisbane's inner north has been approved by the Brisbane City Council.

The Geon Property transport orientated development is set to revitalise the inner-north.

providing a transport, retail, accommodation and lifestyle hub in Albion – one of Brisbane's fastest growing city-fringe suburbs.

Geon Property senior development manager Tim Rossberg said the approval comes after significant consultation with Council, as well as ongoing discussions with residents, businesses and community groups.

"Albion Exchange is well positioned to become the future heart of Albion, with spaces for recreation, a focus on health and lifestyle services, and a brand-new retail precinct – elements that are currently lacking in the area," he said.

Stage One of Albion Exchange approved.
The approved plans confirm that Albion Exchange will be a precinct characterised by its expansive green and open spaces.

"Green and open spaces are so important in urban areas, and we are proud that the approved design includes 3691sq m of public green and open space – covering 61 per cent of the site area," Mr Rossberg said.

"For those who will call Albion Exchange home, we have also retained a significant amount of communal open space — just under 2000sq m — and have reconfigured the building layouts to improve internal circulation and maximise outdoor balcony spaces."

The approved plans have also been refined to ensure safe and easy access to the site, and to support active transportation.

"Changes include widening stairs and paths, providing larger lifts with capacity for multiple wheelchairs, prams and bikes, and adding more shelter and shade," Mr Rossberg said.

"The approved plans also enhance cyclist access to and around the precinct, with dedicated resident, employee, commuter and visitor bike parks, and a design that provides seamless integration with the soon-to-be-completed North Brisbane Bikeway."

Mr Rossberg said 2020 would bring an exciting next stage for the project, with more tenancies to be confirmed and construction on track to commence by the end of the year.

[verbatim9]

A bold plan to redevelop an inner-north suburb has been given the green light. Stage one of the large Albion Exchange project has been approved by the city council. https://t.co/VZ3A1cpmr5 #7NEWS https://t.co/3RZfqB60lw

https://twitter.com/7NewsBrisbane/status/1218084426946498561

[verbatim9]

^^Good to see the Albion exchange go ahead which also gives the green light for a brand new rebuild of Albion train station.

[SurfRail]

^ I hope so. South Bank, Milton and others tend to suggest otherwise of course.

[timh]

^ I hope so. South Bank, Milton and others tend to suggest otherwise of course.

These designs Are different though. This shows building using literally over the station as opposed to both those others which were just kinda next to it

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[brissypete]

An observation with regards to Southpoint (Southbank station) it seems to be struggling or just really poor maintenance as the escalators and toilets have been unavailable now for a number of months.

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[verbatim9]

An observation with regards to Southpoint (Southbank station) it seems to be struggling or just really poor maintenance as the escalators and toilets have been unavailable now for a number of months.

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I do shop at that Woolies and eat at the outlets there at times. You can't even wash your hands after you eat. Very disappointing and must be against the law to have the toilets closed, as they are meant to service the retail food outlets as well.

What happened were they vandalised?  The toilets should be configured like the ones in Westfield, where there are no doors but a L or U entry maze to enter the toilets. This can prevent vandalism and make it easier for security to check. A roller shutter door or lattice fencing can be used at the entry of the toilets when the centre in closed past 10pm.

[kram0]

An observation with regards to Southpoint (Southbank station) it seems to be struggling or just really poor maintenance as the escalators and toilets have been unavailable now for a number of months.

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Yes, I have also noticed the escalators are down for maintenance often considering the age of them. The other thing, what happened to the planned platform raising and upgrade we were promised? They were adamant this was going to happen and yet nothing. More empty promises from useless Bailey.

[SurfRail]

^ They finally replaced the marquees on platform 1 with slightly more permanent looking structures in the last few months.  What a disgraceful outcome for one of the busiest stations on the network.

[timh]

Yeah I was at Southbank the other day. Can confirm is gross. All low level platforms too. For an inner city, high tourist station, it's a bit of a disgrace

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[brissypete]

Agree that South Bank Station is dreadful.

The so-called temporary buildings on P2/3 appear to be permanent given they are still there. The Southpoint entrance has just 2 go-card readers and also looks unfinished, I thought fare gates were to be installed.

The new permanent looking shelters on P1 look crap too. Also the high step to trains in places make it a poor station.

South Brisbane is a good example of a nicely done upgrade, level platforms and just looks nice and welcoming.

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[verbatim9]

^ They finally replaced the marquees on platform 1 with slightly more permanent looking structures in the last few months.  What a disgraceful outcome for one of the busiest stations on the network.

Yeah I was at Southbank the other day. Can confirm is gross. All low level platforms too. For an inner city, high tourist station, it's a bit of a disgrace

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Agree that South Bank Station is dreadful.

The so-called temporary buildings on P2/3 appear to be permanent given they are still there. The Southpoint entrance has just 2 go-card readers and also looks unfinished, I thought fare gates were to be installed.

The new permanent looking shelters on P1 look crap too. Also the high step to trains in places make it a poor station.

South Brisbane is a good example of a nicely done upgrade, level platforms and just looks nice and welcoming.

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Was platform 1 meant to be raised? In the same way Milton station upgrade was done? Also Southbank station is a number 1 contender for a test station in relation to the new next generation ticket gates. If the new ticket gates can also scan QR codes? It means they can remain operational 24/7.  A ticket vending machine can be placed on the platforms if people need a ticket to get out. Passengers can also tap/touch off with a credit or debit card to open the gates.

[kram0]

I got word they hope to start construction of the station upgrade by the end of 2020. I will believe it when I see it, but fingers crossed.