TODs (Transit Oriented Developments)

[verbatim9]

Wonder if these Transit orientated developments pay towards further infrastructure or a maintenance timeline after being completed.  Be good to set up a future fund for the rail extension to the airport from future developments in the area.

[Stillwater]

Two years to design, get approvals and built.  A bit tight.  Suggests there is someone waiting in the wings to take this on.

[Jonno]

Ahhhhmmmmm TOD's aren't meant to boost parking??? oh Sorry this is a QLD TOD. The TOD you have when you are car oriented still - http://www.citylab.com/housing/2013/06/transit-might-not-be-essential-transit-oriented-development/5851/

Car oriented sprawl is bad Car oriented high density is a colossal failure!!

[Golliwog]

Not sure if it's been mentioned yet but they finally got someone to move into the retail space in the Adelaide St concourse level of KGS busway station. They're still fitting it out but a convenience store should open in about 2 weeks.

[ozbob]

^ well that is good news!  Thanks.

[verbatim9]

Not sure if it's been mentioned yet but they finally got someone to move into the retail space in the Adelaide St concourse level of KGS busway station. They're still fitting it out but a convenience store should open in about 2 weeks.

Like the ones at the Gold Coast light rail stations?

[Golliwog]

Not sure if it's been mentioned yet but they finally got someone to move into the retail space in the Adelaide St concourse level of KGS busway station. They're still fitting it out but a convenience store should open in about 2 weeks.

Like the ones at the Gold Coast light rail stations?

Not sure, only used two of the GCLR stations and that was going out at night. If you've been to KGS busway station, the two paneled up bits that were advertising the space for rent are now both sliding glass doors with the shop running the full length behind. Any counter would be inside the space, not at the edge of it.

[verbatim9]

Sounds good will have to check it out tomorrow or Fri

[verbatim9]

Translink Transit store or Convenience Food Store @ KGS Station




Fixing up the storm water leaks yet again!

[Golliwog]

Wouldn't surprise me if the ceiling stuff is actually them getting to those cable ducts to make sure the shop has the comms/power connections it needs to function.

[verbatim9]

Maybe? It was leaking after each rain event though in that spot. Translink security would run around and place plastic buckets and wet signs. It's well known that KGS has leaked since opening 8 years back.

[techblitz]

today i noticed 2 fairly sizeable residential developments commencing/in progress across the road from bowen hills station..

[nathandavid88]

One of them would be Topaz Residences, which is the site where all the houses were demolished except for one.

http://www.topazresidences.com.au/

[verbatim9]

Translink Transit store or Convenience Food Store @ KGS Station

Convenience Coming along @ KGS

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

25th September 2016

Position Paper: Transit Oriented Development Zoning

Greetings,

RAIL Back on Track today releases a position paper (  http://backontrack.org/docs/tod/RBoT_TODSep16.pdf  ) on Transit Oriented Development (TOD).

We call on Lord Mayor Graham Quirk and Brisbane City Council to consider amending the Brisbane City Plan to include a new transit oriented zoning overlay.
Gold Coast City Council already has a similar zoning around Light Rail stations, and we would like to see a similar approach adopted in Brisbane.

It is time to make better use of our existing transport assets.

Expanding Park and Ride ad infinitum is financially unsustainable. Park and Ride expansion costs are extreme, the sea of car parking it generates is ugly, and the gains to patronage are small. That said, there are legitimate applications of Park & Ride, and therefore we have chosen to be selective about where we support it.

A change in thinking is required. Rather than have people bring their cars to the station to Park and Ride, we must allow people to bring their house to the station instead.

Unlike Park and Rides that require financial expenditure, transit oriented development pays for itself and generates rates revenue for the council.

Key features of new zoning could include:

- Higher density and mixed use automatically permitted around all Queensland Rail, CityCat and Busway stations
- Abolition of minimum parking within 200m of a station
- Relaxed minimum parking within 800m of a station (i.e. total parking satisfied with any combination of car, cycling, and car share spaces)
- Perth-style car parking charges where car park utilisation reaches 80% or more

We want to see more diversity within Brisbane's housing stock encouraged, in particular, "missing middle" housing - duplexes,
triplexes, courtyard apartments, townhouses, and midrise apartments around stations.

These proposed changes will complement the bus reforms we propose as part of our New Bus Network Proposal http://tiny.cc/newnetwork

People who choose to live near public transport can look forward to significant cost-of-living savings such as avoiding car purchases (save $20 000), annual car registration (save $330/pa), car insurance costs (save $330/pa), regular servicing, and petrol. Brisbane City Council also benefits - by having residents stay within Brisbane rather than buy into low-density housing in areas outside of Brisbane, rates revenue is retained in the city budget.

We think Brisbane City Council, and indeed all councils generally, should jump at this opportunity.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

References:

Position Paper ­ Transit Oriented Development Zoning
http://backontrack.org/docs/tod/RBoT_TODSep16.pdf

Missing Middle Housing
http://missingmiddlehousing.com/

"Missing Middle is a range of multi-unit or clustered housing types compatible in scale
with single-family homes that help meet the growing demand for walkable urban living."

[ozbob]

Latest media: RBoT Position Paper: Transit Oriented Development Zoning
> https://t.co/P6OPQNYcKy#qldpol #bnepol@Team_Quirk pic.twitter.com/oPbcf3Z9QH

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) September 25, 2016

[SurfRail]

Ms Trad said banks, institutional investors and pension funds from the UK were impressed with the project's land development opportunities.

"The (level of) interest is incredibly high," she said from Paris yesterday.

"A very wide variety of financial institutions are interested and also pension funds."

This is such rubbish and pure speculation. A few people probably had coffee with her and said "that's a nice idea" and suddenly it is media release fodder.

Private sector development around CRR stations would be lucky to generate 5% of the total value of CRR. The CRR itself is financially unprofitable. The development would mainly be limited to Woolloongabba and perhaps Park Road station.

Far more $$ would be generated by introducing TOD zoning around all of the 80+ train stations within the BCC area and fixing up the land tax arrangements so that the gov could capture the amenity from that. Indeed, land tax reform provides a third alternative to borrow / sell or lease options.

How do you implement TOD principles around Hemmant, or Rocklea, or Sunshine?

[#Metro]

How do you implement TOD principles around Hemmant, or Rocklea, or Sunshine?

Is there anything special about the stations mentioned that precludes their development?
https://goo.gl/maps/gFUJieMazY62

TOD zoning would facilitate, but not force, development. Just because an area is zoned for TOD does not mean that the market will build everywhere it has been zoned as such. But it will allow market to test demand.

[SurfRail]

^ Plenty.  They are all in low density industrial zones with poor amenity except for the railway.

You don't just plan station precincts in a vacuum.  The entire point of our planning system in Queensland is that it is performance based, not prescriptive.  You need to work out what aim you want the plan to achieve and see if the proposed measure actually achieves it.  Plonking a lot of intensive development somewhere just because by accident of history there is a railway and a station there isn't necessarily the way to make things work.

[#Metro]

^ Plenty.  They are all in low density industrial zones with poor amenity except for the railway.

The map shows there are already residences, for example, at Hemmant. Why would denser residences (i.e. 5 storey) be not possible there? A similar situation exists at Rocklea. Sunshine is industrial, but even there, homes exist within 800 m of the station.

If the market is not interested, developers won't build, despite what the zoning overlay might say. If people don't want to build close to an industrial area, then there won't be any (or much building there).

And there are precedents for allowing mixed use by default, I included this in the references section of the document:

How Houston Regulates Land Use
http://marketurbanism.com/2016/09/19/how-houston-regulates-land-use/

Houston doesn't mandate single-use zoning. Unlike every other major U.S. city, Houston doesn't mandate the separation of residential, commercial, and industrial developments.

Houston doesn't segregate residential developments. Unlike every other major U.S. city, Houston doesn't mandate the separation of different housing types. This means that single-family homes, townhouses, and apartments are free to mix.

Houston doesn't prohibit tiny living. Attracted to the idea of a small living space? Accessory dwelling units are completely legal and common across the city. Micro apartments are also legal—no Seattle-style shenanigans here—and a few micro unit developments are underway. Those tiny homes that D.C. and L.A. are losing their minds over? They're also permitted and are quickly spreading around the city.

[HappyTrainGuy]

^ Plenty.  They are all in low density industrial zones with poor amenity except for the railway.

The map shows there are already residences, for example, at Hemmant. Why would denser residences (i.e. 5 storey) be not possible there? A similar situation exists at Rocklea. Sunshine is industrial, but even there, homes exist within 800 m of the station.

If the market is not interested, developers won't build, despite what the zoning overlay might say. If people don't want to build close to an industrial area, then there won't be any (or much building there).

And there's a 2 story house at Myrtletown but it doesn't mean we should build an estate out there. And one thing you next to some high story developments at Sunshine is lots of heavy vehicles traveling around and through high where there are no local shops, no bus stops or schools nearby. Not to mention heavy traffic from those starting from 5am and knocking off at 3-4pm. Just stand outside Sunshine station in the arvo and watch all the B doubles, couriers, car transporters, those rat running off Sandgate Road, parents rat running and buses heading back to the depot. Combine that with the level crossing down times and its just traffic chaos.

[#Metro]

A good facebook comment

Andrew James Why not just deregulate the zoning system and let the market decide? About 90-95% of Brisbane is bungalow-only. Just eliminate that zoning code and make it legal to build "the missing middle" wherever the market demands.

24 September at 20:36

Though what the TOD zoning is about is the area 800m around a station, not the whole city.

And there's a 2 story house at Myrtletown but it doesn't mean we should build an estate out there. And one thing you next to some high story developments at Sunshine is lots of heavy vehicles traveling around and through high where there are no local shops, no bus stops or schools nearby. Not to mention heavy traffic from those starting from 5am and knocking off at 3-4pm. Just stand outside Sunshine station in the arvo and watch all the B doubles, couriers, car transporters, those rat running off Sandgate Road, parents rat running and buses heading back to the depot. Combine that with the level crossing down times and its just traffic chaos.

Who is 'we'? Public agencies generally do not develop land for private sale. Developers do that.

If people don't want to live in a 10-storey building next to a sewerage treatment plant or in an area with zero amenities (for example), a developer will make a loss if they do that. So even if you did permit the possibility of that, it would be highly unlikely that developers would build there.

It is difficult to believe the "no amenities" argument re: Sunshine station - if they jump on the train, they can be at Toombul 5 stations down the line. With bus reform, they could also get a bus to Chermside.

Time to think outside the box a bit.

[Gazza]

I think the point is that you cant just act as if you put housing beside a station and leave it at that and get a good outcome. Because transport is just one need of the population, and other features are needed to support TOD and https://nzrailphotos.co.nz/photos/2793/Wheelchair-access-on-AMT-129.JPG sustainable, less car dependent conmunities

[HappyTrainGuy]

We - as in people in general.

Yeah and look at the residents of Geebung complaining that trains use their klaxon despite the whistle board being there for the last 100 years. Infact there are so many cases of developments going into areas where they simply shouldn't have gone in the first place. Like Nudgee. All these new housing estates have popped up yet there are no footpaths, no street lighting, no parking spaces at the train station, no bus services, poor bus services, increased traffic, rat runners..... yet those people that moved in/old residents now want better parking at the train station. Noise and traffic complaints is another. The amount of times I've read in the paper that some idiot has moaned about traffic noise despite moving into a property next to the Gympie Arterial road or a property next to the Amberley air base or bought an apartment in the valley next to some night club on Brunswick street or a house near a pub."Yeah we knew we were moving into an industrial area but there shouldn't be all these heavy vehicles driving up and down the road, the constant beeping of vehicles reversing at 5am blah blah blah blah". This is going back but I had a really hard laugh at the stupidity of humans. In Italy there is a race track at Monza. Its been there since the 1920's. Really popular track known world wide. It was built on the outskirts of the town but as their town planning authority sold off the farm land/forests that surrounded it and instead replaced them with houses in the early 2000's they started coping a lot of flak due to residents not liking the sound of racing cars. Who would have guessed. They joined up with the nimby's who have always been against the track. In the mid 2000's this resulted in the track having noise limits enforced which limited how many events and the type of events the track could host per year. And the sad thing is this has happened quite a lot. Lakeside Raceway which is pretty much next to Dakabin Railway Station now also has noise restrictions. And this just doesn't apply to motorsport. Its happened in the railways to which residents are very easily p%ssed  off with ie the klaxon/lighting/stabling.

Going to Tombul... Bottom dollar says that would without a doubt be in the minority. Remember you will now have to catch a train to northgate, transfer to the shorncliffe line, get off at toombul and use the very friendly station stairs, cross the pain in the ass that is Sandgate road, load up on whatever you can physically carry, make your way back to the station, train to northgate, transfer to the Kippa Ring train and then walk the distance back to where you live. The majority will want parking for their cars so they can drive to Westfield at Chermside, Coles on Robinson Road, Coles/Aldi at the Aspley Hypermarket or Woolies at Chermside Village all of which are closer rather than deal with the cluster f**k that is public transport in this area. And all this bus reform talk. You are still referring to an area that is mostly industrial where there simply isn't enough demand to warrant a bus going through this particular area frequently. Frequently enough that you can encourage the few people that might happen to live there to use the bus. Infact I'd say developers wouldn't lose any money at Sunshine. As long as there is parking they will make a return. Just like the estates at Nudgee. Everything is a quick 5 minute drive away. And that's not what a tod should be.

You could reply "But there's a train station there for them to catch a train to the city". Remember not everyone out this way works in the city. If you follow that mentality you should be a BCC BT planner.

I suggest you actually look at these areas before going off and saying this sort of stuff. The industrial area is flat. The area where the existing houses are located are on an incline as you start to go up the steep hill. The translink review didn't have buses using this area and from what I recall the bus reform that you've been pushing also doesn't have them going through this section. As you know I'm really against the bus reform that keeps getting shown here because it still incorporates flaws from the BCC planning. Yes yes yes I know its an example etc etc etc. Quite frankly the northside needs total..... complete and total overhaul. Bring out the chainsaw and let that baby fly.

[#Metro]

Firstly, the TOD paper was in draft form for about a week for comment. To put in complaints after comment has closed and the paper is submitted, well, what is the purpose of that?

We - as in people in general.

' People in general' don't build. There is a home buyer, and there is a developer. Perhaps you meant allow to build, in which case you are talking about BCC imposing restrictions or exclusions on housing around some rail stations.

It is difficult to argue that housing should not be around certain stations when, well, housing is already there. Why not argue that the existing people living there are in danger/grave inconvenience and must thus be evacuated from that area for their own benefit/health/safety also?

Yeah and look at the residents of Geebung complaining that trains use their klaxon despite the whistle board being there for the last 100 years.

If people want their house next to a noisy level crossing, that is their choice. I once lived in a place backing on to a rail line, and 50 000 tonnes of coal would go zooming past the back yard at 3 am. I didn't mind, that was my choice and the rent was cheap.

If people don't like it, don't buy a house there. Incidentally, plenty of people buying at Yarrabilba etc which has virtually NO amenities. Why approve that but not more housing around Sunshine?

I'm not here to tell people where to live - if they are paying, that is their choice*. It is just unfortunate that people who do want to live near train stations are prevented from doing so because 'concerned people' who are not actually involved in buying the said property are preventing them from making that choice.

* Within reasonable limit, i.e. would not let house go next to nuclear power plant, for example.

I suggest you actually look at these areas before going off and saying this sort of stuff. The industrial area is flat. The area where the existing houses are located are on an incline as you start to go up the steep hill. The translink review didn't have buses using this area and from what I recall the bus reform that you've been pushing also doesn't have them going through this section. As you know I'm really against the bus reform that keeps getting shown here because it still incorporates flaws from the BCC planning. Yes yes yes I know its an example etc etc etc. Quite frankly the northside needs total..... complete and total overhaul. Bring out the chainsaw and let that baby fly.

RBOT 325 access is possible, could be upgraded with more people. Straight to Chermside. Indeed that whole area south of the rail line that is industrial could be rezoned as residential - remove the industries and put in hi density housing. It could work really well. If the density is high enough, you could put in some amenities like a grocery store or supermarket.

Indeed, the whole idea of mixed use is to do that.

The New Bus Network Proposal is public and free to download and modify. Anybody can download it and upload their own version. Indeed, this is encouraged.


http://www.mortylefkoe.com/wp-content/uploads/bigstock_A_green_GO_sign_symbol_rises_a_16773965.jpg

[#Metro]

Sunshine Station Site map
50 ha approx

1. Railway line could be used as the border to separate industrial from residential. This would be an improvement on the current situation.

2. Bilsen Road could be re-connected over the creek. This would complete the grid in the area, allowing buses to travel in a much straighter path. 

3. Area backing on to the creek could be developed as parkland, and cycle trail.

4. Level crossing removal would need to factor into this as well.

5. Demolish all the industrial uses within the green bounded area.

6. Rezone. Fill the area with 5-6 storey development, shops and offices. Use some of the developer charges to put in amenities like a supermarket, childcare etc, and perhaps upgrade the rail station.

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Woolloongabba's Palazzo Brisbane apartments popular with investors

... "We are at the highest point in the development precinct, we enjoy panoramic views and breezes, we enjoy the closest access to shopping and dining, we are a stroll to the PA hospital and various transport and our internal specifications and building amenities are stunning for a boutique development," he said. ...

[techblitz]

It is difficult to argue that housing should not be around certain stations when, well, housing is already there.

yep....apart from sunshine....there is a lot of established housing already around rocklea and hemmant (including 2 state schools).....and the market will soon decide the fate of the industrial around these stations as well....they can only drop the rents so low or stay in business so long before it becomes unviable.......and the only way out is to rezone it residential.....rocklea has good multistory T.O.D potential.....even with the flood risks....the relatively short walk to beaudesert rd / 15 min freq and close access to yerongpilly/Fairfield shops /altandi buses gives it a nice kickalong....

[HappyTrainGuy]

Firstly, the TOD paper was in draft form for about a week for comment. To put in complaints after comment has closed and the paper is submitted, well, what is the purpose of that?

Well, sorry that I don't spend every single free minute I have reading up on the relentless daily media releases.

Quite frankly this is just foam. Complete and total foam. Some places you might be able to get away with it and others you won't.

1. Railway line could be used as the border to separate industrial from residential. This would be an improvement on the current situation.

Whom are getting this improvement? And what is this improvement?

2. Bilsen Road could be re-connected over the creek. This would complete the grid in the area, allowing buses to travel in a much straighter path. 

Hahahaahahahahaha. Will also allow cars to connect and try telling that to the local residents on the southside who are already struggling with rat runners, want the speed limit reduced and speed bumps installed. Wait until they hear about a more faster and direct link going through. Not to mention you are talking about 5-6 story apartment buildings with road infrastructure that isn't designed to handle more cars. I know you say but they can build shops there but the developers couldn't care about a small shop or a supermarket. They'll make maximum return for their bottom dollar. Infact most of the little shopping villages you see here and there are usually owned by the supermarkets themselves through one of their parent companies.

3. Area backing on to the creek could be developed as parkland, and cycle trail.

Already is on the south side. Not that flash. Uneven unlit pathway. Dog park on the northside and southside. etc etc

4. Level crossing removal would need to factor into this as well.

eh.

5. Demolish all the industrial uses within the green bounded area.

Hahahaha. NEVER. GOING. TO. HAPPEN. Just to hone this point in more industrial buildings are being built in this area as some businesses expand. Not to mention its also a QR mtce facility and stabling area. So out of the millions it will cost for these business to relocate somewhere else. The hundreds of employees that work there. Who is the real winner? A few hipsters that might happen to use a bus that gets thrown down that way which is no guarantee?? Or is it the guy that lives there and drives everywhere too???

6. Rezone. Fill the area with 5-6 storey development, shops and offices. Use some of the developer charges to put in amenities like a supermarket, childcare etc, and perhaps upgrade the rail station.

Hahahahahaha. Ask the people in Fitzgibbon about how their planned coffee shops and retail outlets are going. Also ask them about how the proposed speed limits and road layouts are also different to what was planned (BCC are now using fitzgibbon as a new rat run and prioritizing motor vehicle traffic due to the motorway onramp at Boondall closing).

If people don't like it, don't buy a house there.

Because people are stupid. Just like those that will buy a house at The Gap/Upper Kedron housing estate and demand better PT or the council do something about the increased traffic congestion for some reason.

Incidentally, plenty of people buying at Yarrabilba etc which has virtually NO amenities.

Yeah, and hows that working out for them??? With their poor bus frequency, no buses running towards logan after midday (last time I checked - feel free to correct), increased congestion along the m1 and mt lindesay highway, multiple road upgrade projects that have been ongoing for years now, shocked that they don't have any nbn connection, housing resumptions for road upgrades and realignments, having the Logan council lobby the state government for a passenger railway line out there, people living there lobbying for more bus services... have I left anything out??? They have an IGA there now..... Its a very car driven place.

Why approve that but not more housing around Sunshine?

Because the councils are greedy and corrupt assholes that look out for their own backs so they can stay in power longer and stroke their ego rather than doing good for the actual community. Like that quack Quirk. Oh we have to cut bus services because we refuse to change out network to make it more efficient. Oh we have to pay for some roadworks in the city so now we have to cut cycling infrastructure, local community projects and community programs to pay for it. Oh traffic is so bad we now have to spend 635 billion dollars upgrading ksd. Hang on look at all this spare cash we have found to make a bid for the Olympics.

[ozbob]

I term I have coined before is ' natural TODs '.  By this I mean the older inner suburbs in the main of the major capitals.

I spent part of my childhood in such a location - Albert St Windsor.  Housing was reasonably compact, occasional 2 story terraces but in the main single story, not big yards or even car parking facilities.  Transport options though were simply superb.  Sandringham railway line with the Windsor station at the end of the street, around the corner Chapel Street with its trams.  A short stroll to St Kilda junction which was a tram paradise (still is). Further down Fizroy Street St Kilda railway station. Bicycles were used a lot as well.  We never had a car.

Brisbane had similar natural TODs, well served by trams particularly.  People lived and concentrated in these natural TODs.  Industrial areas were well placed along railway lines basically because of goods services.   Even inner Melbourne in some parts still has a lot of these industrial areas next to railways surprising close to the CBD. But these inner suburbs fail with a car centric transport paradigm, they were laid out and developed before the car dominance, and this is one of the basic reasons transport generally is such a mess.  Look at where trams ran in Brisbane.  It was a great system for getting people around until the cars clogged everything up and trams got booted.

Some of these industrial areas, perhaps the conceptual opposite of the natural TODs are slowly being converted to residential type developments and with a view to convenient rail access.  Sometimes things can seem unlikely, but look at the transformation of Docklands in Melbourne for example.  In time things will change.  What might seem unlikely or even bubbles today, may not be down the track. 

An example in Brisbane would be the old industrial/wharfs etc. on the river at New Farm and environs. (These areas were well served by freight rail in the other life).  It would have been difficult to imagine the changes that would occur in the 1950s.  But change has occurred.

Always best to be sceptical but open to outliers.  You just never know what will occur in the end.

[#Metro]

Quite frankly this is just foam. Complete and total foam. Some places you might be able to get away with it and others you won't.

I don't have loss aversion to the extent that other people have. Brisbane has a long history of converting former industrial land into residential. New Farm is a good example of this - used to be a sugar refinery near the powerhouse. Powerhouse itself was an electrical substation. Newstead is former industrial wasteland, similar change is happening around West End and Logan Road in Woolloongabba.

People in upscale Newstead are living in former industrial warehouses with Woolstores etc. That's some of Brisbane's top property.
Bulimba Barracks is likely to be on the radar as well. Portside - former shipping docks and super ugly. Now it's got cinema, restaurants, supermarket, etc.

Yeronga - former power station site. Now is rezoned with upscale apartments and such.

Things change. But it requires letting people who specialise in that have a free hand. Areas around stations should be rezoned and then let the market test for demand.

Hahahaahahahahaha. Will also allow cars to connect and try telling that to the local residents on the southside who are already struggling with rat runners, want the speed limit reduced and speed bumps installed. Wait until they hear about a more faster and direct link going through. Not to mention you are talking about 5-6 story apartment buildings with road infrastructure that isn't designed to handle more cars. I know you say but they can build shops there but the developers couldn't care about a small shop or a supermarket. They'll make maximum return for their bottom dollar. Infact most of the little shopping villages you see here and there are usually owned by the supermarkets themselves through one of their parent companies.

Locals will object to anything. West End locals in the 1990s objected to Light Rail, for instance. People objecting to Cedar Woods are doing so from homes that didn't exist in 1946, and were formed in the same process they now object to. Yet, it is the reason why they have a home to live in.

I think you are confusing cost with value. If developers really acted in the way you describe, mid-market and luxury apartments would not exist. We know by simple observation (i.e. The Milton, Emporium, Portside etc) that this isn't the case.

Creating value is different from keeping cost low. To use an example - bottled water. Cheapest is to drink town water out of the tap. Cost maybe two cents. But if you filter it, package it up, put a label on it, chill it, people will voluntarily buy it at 1000x the price because they value the convenience.

It actually costs money to pay for packaging, transport, the label, marketing, filtering, refridgeration etc, but it all pays for itself and more in the end.

Back to housig - people are going to pay less for something that has a lower level of amenity. Simply because its not the only place in Brisbane they can buy a place, and they have choice. So a developer who needs to compete against other areas that do have amenity needs to put in amenity themselves. In cases where that is unlikey to happen, you bring in regulation for mixed use, which forces that outcome.

Hahahaha. NEVER. GOING. TO. HAPPEN. Just to hone this point in more industrial buildings are being built in this area as some businesses expand. Not to mention its also a QR mtce facility and stabling area. So out of the millions it will cost for these business to relocate somewhere else. The hundreds of employees that work there. Who is the real winner? A few hipsters that might happen to use a bus that gets thrown down that way which is no guarantee?? Or is it the guy that lives there and drives everywhere too???

It's zoned as industrial for now. But rezoning will likely increase land value. This means higher land tax bills, which incentivises the business to move. I am not aware that it was a mtce facility for QR as it is not marked as such on the map and it does not appear to be electrified. In any case, could they use the new facility at Wulkuraka?

Yeah, and hows that working out for them??? With their poor bus frequency, no buses running towards logan after midday (last time I checked - feel free to correct), increased congestion along the m1 and mt lindesay highway, multiple road upgrade projects that have been ongoing for years now, shocked that they don't have any nbn connection, housing resumptions for road upgrades and realignments, having the Logan council lobby the state government for a passenger railway line out there, people living there lobbying for more bus services... have I left anything out??? They have an IGA there now..... Its a very car driven place.

Unfortunately you have completely misinterpreted my comment and actually demonstrated why we need TOD housing choices around existing rail stations. I put that example out there precisely to show that we need to have TODs to give people a real choice between living near PT and having the only new housing in far flung places like Yarrabilba, which is zero amenity sprawl.

Even Sunshine station has arguably a higher amenity level than Yarrabilba. Sunshine has a rail station. Yarrabilba is not going to have that for many decades, if ever. And to construct rail to that location, it is going to cost BILLIONS. Nowhere near that cost with TODs around existing rail station, even if a level crossing removal is thrown in.

Because people are stupid.

They're adults, and they're paying. Same arguments could have been made against The Gap in 1945.

Brisbane City Council actually has aerial mapping for Brisbane from 1946, believe it or not. Have a look at The Gap - a few houses, but otherwise nothing there! City ends at Ashgrove. Tank farms in Newstead. http://cityplan2014maps.brisbane.qld.gov.au/CityPlan/ (Select Aerial photography - 1946).

[HappyTrainGuy]

I am not aware that it was a mtce facility for QR as it is not marked as such on the map and it does not appear to be electrified. In any case, could they use the new facility at Wulkuraka?

Nope. Different type of mtce. It's infact 3 or 4 different depots based there. The majority of the trackside, landscaping and electrical gangs work and are based out of this facility. Its also a facilities depot so it also holds spares such as track, sleepers, masts, trackside infrastructure, station equipment etc etc etc. You can also spot the odd group of track machines and ballast wagons hiding on some of the roads. You should be able to see them on google earth. Mayne keeps the trains running. These guys are one of the few depots that keeps the infrastructure side running.

[Gazza]

With the comment about people not living somewhere undesirable.

The thing is, this is already happening. There was an article a few months back about those new unit complexes at Richlands where the kids were playing in a car wreck on a vacant lot because the area has no other services.
The urban planning professor who was quoted says he runs field trips there to show what not to do.

This is why just leaving it to the market is no guarantee you'll get a good outcome, because there are developers that build cheap sh%t that meets the bare minimum of the local regulations.

This is a far cry from the good quality TOD and urban villages people have in their heads as an outcome.

And unless the local plan is a holistic integrated thing then you wont get a good outcome.

Eg the hemmant example. Zone for high density TOD, so you get some of their trips on the local train, but they still use car for everything else because there is nothing else out there, and say the nearest supermarket next to a train station is a few stops away.

Thats not to say TOD cant work at Hemmant, rather that the local plans for each station need time and effort to think about creating a community with a mix of shops/service etc.

I know this goes against some notion that developers magically build cities that people want if we just gave them an unrestricted blank canvas.

[#Metro]

Richlands

There was an article a few months back about those new unit complexes at Richlands where the kids were playing in a car wreck on a vacant lot because the area has no other services.

Have you considered that the children might have been playing in a car wreck because... they are children, and that's what children do?

Perhaps it had nothing to do with "no other services" but rather an adult saw children playing in a car wreck and then jumped to conclusions?

Did he mean these units? There's a bowling alley down the road and a football club. Catch train a few stops and you're in Springfield. Plenty of amenities there. Same with Inala. And if we had bus reforms, it would be all easy to get to.

https://www.google.com/maps/@-27.5949405,152.95287,3a,75y,146.73h,87.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s42BZoS01YOHYgQBusZhAIA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Mixed Use

Thats not to say TOD cant work at Hemmant, rather that the local plans for each station need time and effort to think about creating a community with a mix of shops/service etc.

SUPPORT diversity within Brisbane's housing stock. In particular, this includes "missing
middle" housing ­ duplexes, triplexes, courtyard apartments, townhouses and mixed use
medium density around stations

Position paper supports "mixed use". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed-use_development

Mixed-use development is a type of urban development that blends residential, commercial, cultural, institutional, or industrial uses, where those functions are physically and functionally integrated, and that provides pedestrian connections.[1][2]

Just because something is local does not mean that people will prefer or use it either. Major centres (Chermside, Carindale, Toombul, Indooroopilly, Garden City) have a huge pull because they have massive floor area with hundreds and hundreds of stores. This is known and formalised in the planning literature also:

Reilly (1931) applied the gravity concept to retail trade analysis:

– Determine the retailing pulling power of two competing cities on an
intervening area

– Drawing power of a facility is directly proportional to the size of the facility
and inversely proportional to distance

– Focused on stores rather than consumers

In other words, even though there might be a local store, many people will still travel to the Chermsides, Indooroopillies etc.

Planners need to think outside the "Urban Jail Cell" model, where the city is composed of individual self-contained units that do not interact with each other and supposedly is supposed to negate travel. I am not aware of any city on Earth like that, not even in Sydney, the supposed "city of villages".

http://www.sc.edu/nutrition/symposium/Hibbert.pdf

The linear city and other science fictions
http://transportblog.co.nz/2016/03/07/the-linear-city-and-other-science-fictions/

See Example D

[HappyTrainGuy]

Just because something is local does not mean that people will prefer or use it either. Major centres (Chermside, Carindale, Toombul, Indooroopilly, Garden City) have a huge pull because they have massive floor area with hundreds and hundreds of stores

You definitely do not know the northside. Chermside generates the pull because of the large amount of retail stores, movie theater, lack of grocery stores elsewhere and a place for people of all ages to associate at all times of the day. Something of which you rarely get anywhere else. Many locals infact rarely go there to do grocery shopping because the area is such a pain in the ass to actually get to. Directly to the north you have a woolies at Chermside West Village, a coles at Robinson Road village, an Aldi and Coles at the Aspley Hypermarket and an IGA on Zillmere Road. All of which are within 4km of Chermside. I can include plenty more to the west such as Woolies Everton Park, Coles on Rode Road and IGA on Hamilton Road. Taigum has a coles/aldi combo and a woolies. There's another IGA at Boondall and another woolies on Beams road/Gympie Road. Within 1km of that woolies at Carseldine you then have another Aldi at Bald Hills. However people that live east/south of westfield chermside have little choice in where they can shop and have to resort in to going to westfield. Between the 2 big shopping centers at Chermside and Lutyche which is a similar distance as Westfield to Aldi at Bald Hills the only grocery stores is the Aldi on Rode Road, Woolies at Nundah and Coles at Toombul. Once you start heading west you start to form the close groupings again. Christ Northgate/Banyo/Nudgee only got their first grocery store at the start of this year so anyone that previously lived there had to make their way to Toombul/Nundah or Chermside. How's that for being a potential tod area. Ha!

There was an article a few months back about those new unit complexes at Richlands where the kids were playing in a car wreck on a vacant lot because the area has no other services.

Wasn't it a burnt out house on a large vacant block of land?

Did he mean these units? There's a bowling alley down the road and a football club. Catch train a few stops and you're in Springfield. Plenty of amenities there. Same with Inala. And if we had bus reforms, it would be all easy to get to.

So you are suggesting rather than the kids being kids and playing around the yard/going to a park nearby they now suddenly have to catch a train all the way to Springfield? Rather than riding bikes around the neighborhood by themselves or playing in the school grounds (found out last year that's a big no no now which is horse sh%t) they have to catch a train or a bus somewhere and then pay more money for activities? And pretty sure the footy club you mention is the Brisbane lions soccer club and they are...... how would you say..... not exactly child friendly.... when it comes to random kids running around their nicely laid turf. Not to mention the whole place is fenced off.

[#Metro]

Well NIMBYs always have 101 objections to things, often framed as "concern" for third parties, even when the said third party is paying and an adult more than capable of making their own decisions about where to live and at what price point.

For example, if we look at Fig Tree Pocket, locals there have managed to get a block on any kind of convenience store being built in their area. They have pretty much gone through and got the council to zone out of existence most amenities from their local area. That's right, there exist suburbs in Brisbane that actively do not want amenities in their area. That is their choice.

What should we do about the 3500+ people who live in Fig Tree Pocket that are far away from all amenties? Ban them? Evacuate them for their own benefit? Force them to have amenities that they don't want? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fig_Tree_Pocket,_Queensland

It is noteworthy also for the absence of stores of any kind, with the nearest major shopping complex being the Indooroopilly Shopping Centre.

Non-residential uses not consistent with the outcomes sought in potential development areas include club, educational establishment, community care centre, hotel, indoor sport and recreation, health care services, outdoor sport and recreation in the very low density residential potential development area, food and drink outlet and service station.

7.2.6.2 Fig Tree Pocket neighbourhood plan code
https://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/sites/default/files/P7%20FigTreePocketNPcode.pdf

In many TODs you would be able to get support for local amenities simply due to the sheer numbers of people and demand created by the extra development. That is a good thing. But businesses are businesses that need to make a profit to keep their doors open, and you can plan for a supermarket and other things in an area as much as one wants, but if there isn't the business traffic from enough people there, the business, whether that be a supermarket or a childcare centre etc will go out of business. This is likely to be the case for small TODs in more outer areas. Perhaps even Hemmant.

How does one stop a business closing its doors from low demand if that's what it wants to do? Just ban the whole development?

The TOD paper makes it clear that not every regulation is being abolished etc. For anyone to suggest so is hyperbole. The paper is very specific about what should be relaxed:

Position Paper ­ Transit Oriented Development Zoning
http://backontrack.org/docs/tod/RBoT_TODSep16.pdf

Key features of new zoning could include:

- Higher density and mixed use automatically permitted around all Queensland Rail, CityCat and Busway stations
- Abolition of minimum parking within 200m of a station
- Relaxed minimum parking within 800m of a station (i.e. total parking satisfied with any combination of car, cycling, and car share spaces)
- Perth-style car parking charges where car park utilisation reaches 80% or more

None of this is particularly Earth-shattering (maybe for Brisbane it is!), and it is hardly burning the statute book so to speak.  The main difference is the higher density being automatically OK and relaxed parking which is not really needed if you live in the walk up zone.

The effect of insisting that every single TOD must have XYZ around it, even though there is likely to be a range of scales from no development or very modest development, to full blown The Milton style development is to cut off the bottom end, the affordable and low-income housing end of the spectrum.

You have a situation where The Perfect becomes the Enemy of the good. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_is_the_enemy_of_good

Alan Davies of The Urbanist (Melbourne) blog has a post on this. By piling up all the requirements, the cost becomes high and so the effect of that is to just cut off the bottom end of the market. The affordable stuff, leaving only luxury stuff.

Of course, there needs to be parks, schools etc, and council/state usually (and should) take care of that as these are publicly provided.

If one goes too far, you end up only building luxury TODs (i.e. The Milton or Tennyson), then that's going to attract high-income people who don't really care about saving money by catching the train when they can afford to buy their own parking space in the CBD and drive their car and pay tolls everywhere. I don't mind if that's what high income people want to do, but I do mind when middle and low income people are actively excluded by well-intentioned third parties who prefer to ban the whole development if a supermarket et al. isn't present.

Are these standards worth $62,500 per apartment?
https://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2016/08/25/are-these-standards-worth-62500-per-apartment/
https://urban.melbourne/sites/urban.melbourne/files/price_increase_based_on_apartments_draft_standards.pdf

[Gazza]

So we're not allowed to insist on any basic standards/good practice in town plans because that's trying to be too perfect?

It has to be that you slap down the zoning and leave it to the market?

[#Metro]

So we're not allowed to insist on any basic standards/good practice in town plans because that's trying to be too perfect?

It has to be that you slap down the zoning and leave it to the market?

Where in the TOD paper does it say that Gazza?

[Gazza]

You literally just posted a link to an article about perfect being the enemy of good and said that standards make the cost too high.

[#Metro]

If someone wants to build TOD at Hemmant, Sunshine or Rocklea, let them do it. Would require some industry to move out, then very well.

It might not be fancy, and you might have described such developments as "cheap sh%t" but even low income and middle-income people need a place to live. Even the missing middle housing going up around Richlands that you decry would be something I would like to buy if I could afford it.

Not everyone can afford to live at developments like The Milton or Tennyson. They are unaffordable luxury only.
Have you seen the price one apartment is going for? $690 000. http://www.themilton.com.au/brisbane-apartments.html

Only people in the 1% can afford something like that. Tennyson TOD much the same, sadly. We do need TODs further out, some that are smaller scale, no doubt. Many, but not all stations have amenities already anyway (i.e. Sherwood). And as I pointed out, people already live around the ones that don't.

Seems like a double standard really. OK for single family ppl already there, but anyone else, suddenly its a problem.

Something cheaper at Hemmant or Rocklea would be great, even if other people think that I should not live there because the amenity might be a bit less. Better than nothing, and certainly better than Yarrabilba.

The 3500+ people of Fig Tree Pocket seem to like it their way. That is their choice. The fact that they have to block the development of amenities in their suburbs with regulation does suggest that the residents there do fear that without that 'protection' people would come in and develop those stores and food outlets. After all, there would be no competition initially and it would serve a need and be profitable.

Not every TOD is going to have the scale to support every amenity. Statement of the obvious really.

In any event, the TOD paper says mixed use. That paper (official position) is rather tame really, hardly statute-burning. Reflects feedback from yourself and others also. Jonno had feedback on mixed use, and that reflects that. Mixed use is down there. Your own feedback about 2km zones for infrastructure deficit zones are also reflected in that official position paper.

Thanks for your feedback.