Terms of use Privacy About us Media Contact

Author Topic: Gold Coast Light Rail Stage 5 (Concept)  (Read 1564 times)

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 20884
Gold Coast Light Rail Stage 5 (Concept)
« on: June 06, 2021, 07:40:47 PM »
Gold Coast Light Rail Stage 5 RBOT Concept

- 4.04 km from Gold Coast Airport to Tweed Hospital
- Ballpark cost $400 million (funds: opportunity to share the cost with NSW Government, Australian Government, possible OOL station airport user access fee)
- Service to run into NSW
- Griffith Street turned into a Transit Mall (no general car traffic), major bus interchange placed here
(removes need to have buses interchange at Gold Coast Airport)


Click to Enlarge

Stations (Indicative Only)

- Kirra
- Coolangatta (Griffith St) Transit Mall (major interchange)
- Tweed Mall
- Tweed Heads Civic Centre / Tweed Hospital
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Offline SurfRail

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8330
Re: Gold Coast Light Rail Stage 5 (Concept)
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2021, 08:25:20 PM »
There's no reason to put it in Griffith Street when it can run one street south. 

You'd want a stop at either end - the eastern one for Twin Towns in particular.

I think in practice airport to the border would be Stage 4.  You'd get better value if Stage 5 were north of here, because Tweed Heads is a natural terminating point for the bus network and the Tweed council chambers aren't particularly that.  You would want light rail to go at least to Tweed City, at which point you would not need to run most buses north of there.
Ride the G:

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 20884
Re: Gold Coast Light Rail Stage 5 (Concept)
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2021, 08:42:12 PM »
Quote
You'd get better value if Stage 5 were north of here, because Tweed Heads is a natural terminating point for the bus network and the Tweed council chambers aren't particularly that.

Thanks for your feedback SurfRail.

Nothing stops a later stage six extension. Stop placed at that location as that stop has hospital access.
What are the cons with Griffith Street? It would make a good transit mall IMHO.

Heavy rail should run under the airport runway (similar to the road bypass perhaps) and then have provision to extend into Northern NSW broadly following the M1 alignment. This would require a bit of co-ordination between state governments but it would be similar to how Brisbane AirTrain operates - NSW would contract QR to run the train from the border into NSW.

Such a heavy rail extension would give easy access to OOL for Northern NSW residents and work etc in QLD.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2021, 08:58:36 PM by #Metro »
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Offline HappyTrainGuy

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5105
Re: Gold Coast Light Rail Stage 5 (Concept)
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2021, 09:26:24 PM »
Tfnsw/nsw have little to no interests in running or contracting transport services in Queensland. Itís just luck that the one operator that operates in northern nsw is the same operator that services the Gold Coast with one key interchange location at tweed heads.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2021, 09:35:37 PM by HappyTrainGuy »

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 20884
Re: Gold Coast Light Rail Stage 5 (Concept)
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2021, 09:33:33 PM »
What makes you say that? NSW is a competent jurisdiction  :co3 :fo: :tr
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Offline Arnz

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2478
Re: Gold Coast Light Rail Stage 5 (Concept)
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2021, 10:02:38 PM »
NSW would have very little interest in subsidising Queensland Transport services, and vice-versa unless if the 'middle-man' - aka the Federal Government is involved (ala trains running on ARTC federal controlled track to Brisbane for the TrainLink (CountryLink) services from Sydney). 

There's a reason why 700 stops just over the Border at Tweed Mall as a transport hub to TfNSW funded Surfside Buslines services.
Rgds,
Arnz

Unless stated otherwise, Opinions stated in my posts are those of my own view only.

Offline Gazza

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5966
Re: Gold Coast Light Rail Stage 5 (Concept)
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2021, 10:58:20 PM »
In a competent network, wouldn't you have NSW buses running through to the Airport anyway.

For two reasons, one because Tweed Residents would probably enjoy access to the airport.
Secondly, when heavy rail is extended to Coolangatta, passengers in the Tweed would not enjoy having to interchange onto light rail for such a short distance to access heavy rail.

I think arsehole attitudes by transport authorities should be called out. The buses may currently stop at the border but the mobility needs do not.

Have a look at the transport network in Basel.... Lines running between 3 countries, one of which is not even in the EU.

Offline Arnz

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2478
Re: Gold Coast Light Rail Stage 5 (Concept)
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2021, 11:31:36 PM »
Considering OOL runs in both Qld and NSW territory and the Airport land owned by the Feds (though leased out to a private operator), the Airport makes more sense as the border bus hub for urban services from both TfNSW and TransLink

Without knowing the transfer figures in the Tweed, I'd be guessing the transfer figures from 700 to the TfNSW services would be low anyway, and whether the few that actually regularly uses TransLink and TfNSW bus services in the same day may be willing to "double transfer" (if the hub was changed from Tweed to OOL Airport) is a different question entirely.
Rgds,
Arnz

Unless stated otherwise, Opinions stated in my posts are those of my own view only.

Offline verbatim9

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5596
Re: Gold Coast Light Rail Stage 5 (Concept)
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2021, 12:27:46 AM »
Gold Coast Light Rail Stage 5 RBOT Concept

- 4.04 km from Gold Coast Airport to Tweed Hospital
- Ballpark cost $400 million (funds: opportunity to share the cost with NSW Government, Australian Government, possible OOL station airport user access fee)
- Service to run into NSW
- Griffith Street turned into a Transit Mall (no general car traffic), major bus interchange placed here
(removes need to have buses interchange at Gold Coast Airport)


Click to Enlarge

Stations (Indicative Only)

- Kirra
- Coolangatta (Griffith St) Transit Mall (major interchange)
- Tweed Mall
- Tweed Heads Civic Centre / Tweed Hospital
From what I have read previously. The NSW Government wants to run the tram from OOL to Tweed City. This makes sense as Tweed City is a major interchange for the Northern Rivers.

Offline verbatim9

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5596
Re: Gold Coast Light Rail Stage 5 (Concept)
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2021, 12:37:28 AM »
There's no reason to put it in Griffith Street when it can run one street south. 

You'd want a stop at either end - the eastern one for Twin Towns in particular.

I think in practice airport to the border would be Stage 4.  You'd get better value if Stage 5 were north of here, because Tweed Heads is a natural terminating point for the bus network and the Tweed council chambers aren't particularly that.  You would want light rail to go at least to Tweed City, at which point you would not need to run most buses north of there.

If you are running it out the back from Coolangatta you could have a stop at Cooly Bowls club

Offline Gazza

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5966
Re: Gold Coast Light Rail Stage 5 (Concept)
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2021, 12:20:06 PM »
I was thinking you could structure the network like this.

Basically the light rail runs to Tweed Mall.
We can forget about the hospital for the time being because that is being replaced by the Tweed Valley hospital at Kingscliff.

Current Qld buses running to Tweed heads are replaced by LRT (orange).

NSW buses (purple) take over Griffith St or Marine Parade and terminate at the Airport / heavy rail (yellow)



Offline SurfRail

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8330
Re: Gold Coast Light Rail Stage 5 (Concept)
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2021, 01:46:53 PM »
^ I like.

Current route 601 just continues as it does now, and route 600 (and any other Tweed Heads terminators) continue to the airport.  Minor inconvenience for anybody going from Coolangatta to say Tugun, but this is on balance a lot better for a lot more people I think.

My view is you could have light rail stops at Toolona Street, Boyd Street and then nothing until the airport precinct.  There is only very limited patronage potential south of Boyd Street with basically a block either side of the GC Highway, bounded by the beach and the airport.  Just maintain buses along here and let the tram speed through.  I think there is still plenty of scope for a frequent bus covering Elanora, Currumbin Beach, John Flynn, Golden Four Drive, the Airport and Kirra into Coolangatta.  There will also need to be a bus connection to Tugun Heights, and in the future probably to the Cobaki development over the border.
Ride the G:

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 20884
Re: Gold Coast Light Rail Stage 5 (Concept)
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2021, 02:09:27 PM »
Train line should not hook and terminate at OOL. It should be linear to permit potential extension into northern NSW.
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Offline Arnz

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2478
Re: Gold Coast Light Rail Stage 5 (Concept)
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2021, 02:44:52 PM »
Train line should not hook and terminate at OOL. It should be linear to permit potential extension into northern NSW.

Going to need to convince both state governments, plus the Feds for that to happen. 

Neither state are willing to subsidise each others Transport unless if the middle man (The Feds) are involved, just like the TrainLink (CountryLink) service between Sydney and Brisbane that runs on Federal Government (ARTC) controlled rail tracks, ditto with the Sydney - Melbourne TrainLink service that runs on Federal controlled tracks.
Rgds,
Arnz

Unless stated otherwise, Opinions stated in my posts are those of my own view only.

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 20884
Re: Gold Coast Light Rail Stage 5 (Concept)
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2021, 04:13:31 PM »
It comes down to line design. You can still build the rail line wholly in Queensland just donít design it with a fishhook.
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Offline SurfRail

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8330
Re: Gold Coast Light Rail Stage 5 (Concept)
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2021, 04:19:05 PM »
The problem is that would exponentially increase the cost due to the need to tunnel quite extensively compared with the fish-hook, and given the geology of where this all sits relative to the sea that will not involve particularly competent soil for tunnelling.  There's no way the line is going anywhere at grade since it has to cross an aerodrome.  The BCR would explode to the point where it would be more cost-effective to build a terminus at the preserved Tugun station site and a people mover to the terminals.

There's also nothing that stops a triangular junction.  Just run split peak hour services from NNSW and OOL, and have all off-peak peak services terminate at OOL with a cross-platform interchange - or just change ends.  Plenty of parts of the world where this still happens.  While not ideal, the capex would be drastically cheaper and would allow more resources to be plumbed into the locally much more important light rail network.
Ride the G:

Offline Stillwater

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6568
Re: Gold Coast Light Rail Stage 5 (Concept)
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2021, 04:37:46 PM »
The motorway tunnel beneath Coolangatta Airport runway essentially is a sealed tube, 'floating' but secured in very swampy soil. The tunnel stability is maintained by having pumps preventing water pressure build-up on one side and wanting to push the tunnel off alignment. The pumps allow water to flow around the outer wall of the tunnel 24/7.

Offline Gazza

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5966
Re: Gold Coast Light Rail Stage 5 (Concept)
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2021, 05:31:01 PM »
As much as I would have loved a more direct tunnel, the hook design is what we are probably stuck with, because they already built the roof of the rail tunnel as part of the Tugun Bypass works, so it will be a short section of bottom up excavation.

I did have one idea that the line would run under the northern approach in a rail trench right on the boundary of the rugby fields, then turn and rise up and run elevated along Adina Avenue to the airport, but this would need tight turns and impact about 55 homes.

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 20884
Re: Gold Coast Light Rail Stage 5 (Concept)
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2021, 11:30:19 PM »
Quote
The problem is that would exponentially increase the cost due to the need to tunnel quite extensively compared with the fish-hook, and given the geology of where this all sits relative to the sea that will not involve particularly competent soil for tunnelling.

Heavy rail used to run all the way to Coolangatta before the old South Coast line (as it was known then) was closed.

How did that manage without a tunnel and could parts of that alignment still be used today??
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Offline Arnz

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2478
Re: Gold Coast Light Rail Stage 5 (Concept)
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2021, 11:35:23 PM »
Most of the South Coast Line was similar to the NCL north of Landsborough, or the Main Line west of Rosewood. A winding 1800s/early 1900s alignment with many curves and would not be acceptable travel time wise in today's environment.

A lot of the old alignment would be developed, although there are still some relics such as the Ernest Junction tunnel still standing today.
Rgds,
Arnz

Unless stated otherwise, Opinions stated in my posts are those of my own view only.

Offline HappyTrainGuy

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5105
Re: Gold Coast Light Rail Stage 5 (Concept)
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2021, 11:42:18 PM »
Was a journey to say the least back i nthe day.

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 20884
Re: Gold Coast Light Rail Stage 5 (Concept)
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2021, 11:49:40 PM »
Is a heavy rail alignment possible broadly along the M1 and then tunnel under OOL following the state border to arrive under the terminal building?

Yes it would cost more, but not doing so would effectively cost northern NSW future rail services to the GC and Brisbane. Thatís a big opportunity cost forgone to future generations.

In addition, as the tunnel would be on Federal land plus would cross a border and would improve international travel plus potentially support an Olympics bid, there is a very strong support for Australian Government involvement and funding.

Ask Scotty from  (Tourism Australia) marketing!

As for the Tweed Heads Hospital site - that's a nice large parcel of land that could potentially become a LRT depot if that is the case.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2021, 01:00:21 AM by #Metro »
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Offline Gazza

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5966
Re: Gold Coast Light Rail Stage 5 (Concept)
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2021, 07:43:01 AM »
It wouldn't cost NSW rail services.....Youd just have to reverse the train out to continue south.

Offline Arnz

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2478
Re: Gold Coast Light Rail Stage 5 (Concept)
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2021, 02:51:21 PM »
Or you can just run them all as shuttles and funded almost entirely by TfNSW utilising the Tweed/Northern NSW fare system. 

Not ideal for integrated 'ticketing', but it does allow for a simple cross platform transfer by swiping the go card or your personal device under the new Translink ticketing system and vice versa for the Northern NSW ticket.

If the Fed government gets onboard, some of the track could pontentially be dual-gauged and the track comes under Federal Government (ARTC) control rather than RailCorp(NSW) or QR.
Rgds,
Arnz

Unless stated otherwise, Opinions stated in my posts are those of my own view only.

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 20884
Re: Gold Coast Light Rail Stage 5 (Concept)
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2021, 06:34:54 PM »
Yes, some good points raised there Arnz. Rail is a long-term investment and the lack of an agreement on a common national standard gauge at federation meant break of gauge problems at borders. Clearly we want to avoid a mess like that, so getting everyone on the same page is a good idea.

The whole area will look very different in 50-100 years time, and if narrow gauge is locked in then it NSW would have multiple gauges, potentially to Murwillumbah, Byron Bay, Ballina etc, which probably isn't desirable.

Anyway, it is a topic for more discussion.
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

 

Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 


ďYou can't understand a city without using its public transportation system.Ē -- Erol Ozan