Blue CityGlider Extension to Portside Hamilton

[#Metro]

I have drawn a map to look at the potential extension of the Blue CityGlider to Portside Hamilton.

See here http://tiny.cc/CityGlider60

It's possible with minimal changes to the route.

- Only two stops affected. These being Newstead (an extended service would move around the corner to stop) and Teneriffe Ferry (already well
serviced by the 199, more 199s could be added if need be).

- CityGliders are stored at the Eagle Farm depot, so extending the route to Portside would reduce dead running between the depot and the start of revenue service.

- Plenty of development at Hamilton, more people will buy there and construction boosted if the CityGlider extends to there

- A CityGlider to Portside Hamilton features in previous plans

- Doesn't require the invention of another bus route and number

- Extended route is 12 km long, the general optimal length for a bus route, and comparable to other bus route lengths in the network.

- Kingsford Smith Drive is already widened now, so the route has much less congestion and attractive stops.

- New construction stimulated by the bus service extension would increase BCC rates revenue from this area

- Funding could also come from amalgamating Route 305 (Ascot - CBD) to into this new route extension.


Route 300 (and 305)

https://translink.com.au/sites/default/files/acquiadam-assets/timetables/170109-300%2C305.pdf

[timh]

I'd be down for this. It seems like a logical extension of the route and yes you would hope with the development at Hamilton and the upgrades to KSD it would be well patroned.

Ensuring that the Tenerife ferry stop is still well serviced is important, the 199 indeed may need some extra services to fill in the gap.

Also to run the extra length and maintain the same service levels would new buses need to be purchased? (Or maybe just existing ones repainted with the city glider livery)

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[#Metro]

Also to run the extra length and maintain the same service levels would new buses need to be purchased? (Or maybe just existing ones repainted with the city glider livery)

Thanks for your positive feedback timh.

New buses will probably not need to be purchased. The reason is that amalgamation of route 305 will free up buses that can be then allocated to the extended CityGlider.

In addition, Brisbane Metro will free up more buses (one would hope!) which can also be re-allocated to the route.

All in all I think the additional cost would be marginal really - there is so much duplication in the network that a lot of improvement is possible without spending heaps.

[Gazza]

I don't think the Tennerife Ferry issue can be glossed over...

Currently a good deal of patronage comes from people coming off the ferry and jumping straight on the glider because it's the fastest way in to town.
Making everyone go on a tour around new farm via coles and Brunswick St is probably going to be unpopular.

[verbatim9]

I sent a submisson to Council last year advocating for a Skygate Glider via Hamilton Portside and Northshore. This would service potential airport workers and passengers plus residents of Newstead, Valley Hamilton and Ascot. It was mooted by Council back when Quirk was Lord Mayor. It needs to be resurrected as this was one of the selling points for the Kingsford Smith Drive upgrade. It could be branded as the Silver flyer/glider and take pressure off the Blue Giider. It could be subsidised with airport and arline related partial wraps and onbaord video advertising inbetween real time alerts and next stop announcements. The Silver Flyer could also use Lomandra Drive instead of Southercross Way to its end destination of Skygate, or it could use both Southern Cross Way outbound and Lomandra Drive inbound?

The New Silver Skygate Flyer

[verbatim9]

I don't think the Tennerife Ferry issue can be glossed over...

Currently a good deal of patronage comes from people coming off the ferry and jumping straight on the glider because it's the fastest way in to town.
Making everyone go on a tour around new farm via coles and Brunswick St is probably going to be unpopular.

Plus its well patronised at Gasworks

[#Metro]

I think it will be OK to move it. Bulimba pax have a ferry to the City, BUZ 199 etc.

The Gasworks stop will move around the corner to be on Breakfast Creek Road ~ 200 m away. Walk.

This stop has been moved before - previously the route went via Commercial Road, until a worker petitioner got BCC to move it to

Skyring Tce. It can be moved again...

[STB]

You'd probably get quite a bit of grief if the glider was moved away from the Gasworks stop.

Yours truly designed the original route along Commercial Rd, in hindsight the petitioner was correct in asking for it to be moved.

If anything, you'd BUZ the 300 on its existing route and encourage Hamilton Northshore pax to use the CityCat.

From memory, the Strategic Planning for Northshore had a route between DFO and Northshore, but was dependent on a railway station being built outside the DFO on the Airport line.  Other ideas floated at the time included reopening Eagle Farm station in a new location with a bus interchange, but as far as I'm aware, that remained in house way back in 2007ish.

[#Metro]

So BUZ the 300 instead? Any comments??

[techblitz]

Yes....buz 300...

They have invested too much money into ferry frequency to start cannibalising the citybound patronage with a re-routed glider.
The citycat currently runs at similar frequency to the ferny grove line.....with similar amounts of staff to operate it.

All the effort to establish the CC - 60 patronage has paid off....... many commuters now content to just connect into a blue glider(the bonus they have is they always get first dibs at a seat on the bus which 9 times out of ten in peak will be crush loaded by the time it leaves gasworks..

[Gazza]

I think it will be OK to move it. Bulimba pax have a ferry to the City, BUZ 199 etc.

But the bulimba pax are opting to jump on the Citygilder rather than spend extra time touring around new farm on the 199, or spending extra time on the slower citycat.

You'll note that Bulimba to Tenerrife is overlaid with a cross river ferry interspersed with the citycat specifically because there is such high demand for basically hopping across the river and jumping straight onto the glider.
https://jp.translink.com.au/plan-your-journey/timetables/ferry/T/bulimba-to-teneriffe-cross-river-ferry

Im confused, are service changes like this beehives or not?

[#Metro]

What came first, the cross river ferry or the glider?

[Otto]

What came first, the cross river ferry or the glider?

Cross river has been running for over 40 years that I know of, most likely much longer.
CityCat has been operating since 1996, preceeded by the privately run Golden Mile ferry.

[verbatim9]

I don't think converting the 300 into a HF service would be the best outcome. It's better to service new high density areas of Hamilton's new growth corridor as well as improve services for Airport workers and visitors to the airport precincts. HF bus services are best designed around high density living connecting points of interest and services. A new Skygate flyer can do just that as well as provide a possible connection to Luggage point cruise terminal which will also be needed from Skygate.

[Gazza]

Currently the 300 is the busiest non BUZ route, upgrading would be an excellent outcome.

[verbatim9]

Currently the 300 is the busiest non BUZ route, upgrading would be an excellent outcome.

There is no need to Buz that service as potential commuters have access to the train. If there was no train service it would be worth while. The 300 is fine how it is. It could do with a few later night services though.

Plus there is the 301. I think the area is well serviced with the 300, 301 and Doomben Line. The Hamilton high density growth corridor and Airport precinct (Skygate is under serviced.

[Gazza]

That said, if the glider was extended to DFO, it should go via nudgee rd rather than the gateway, to service Doomben station and Woolworths Ascot BRC.

[techblitz]

I don't think converting the 300 into a HF service would be the best outcome

why not? There is more medium density development happening around racecourse rd.....not exactly a negative...

The best logical step to link skygate and northshore/crusie terminal lies in a 304 extension.....then the route can supplement the 590/Toombul connection from doomben.

Cut the 590 back to 30 mins across the board.....savings can be redirected to extended 304..
The 590 is already doing its main job which is supplementing the GCL between garden city/Carindale/cannon hill.....it does not need 15 mins frequency during peaks......if it was getting standees during that time then it probably warrants it.....but it doesn't..

[achiruel]

I'm not sure 300 BUZ is the ideal solution here. I don't have an objection to it per se, and during much of the day it's already at 20 minute frequency so it's not a huge jump (nights/weekends are a different story).

Yes, much of the 300 area is covered by the sh&thouse Doomben line, which runs every 30 minutes at best, hourly on Saturdays, last service from the city is just after 7pm, doesn't run at all Sundays/Public Holidays...and you wonder why people don't want to use it?

Yours truly designed the original route along Commercial Rd, in hindsight the petitioner was correct in asking for it to be moved.

IIRC Skyring Tce was pretty much a construction zone at the time the Glider originally started, I think you made the right decision for that time. Not to say it shouldn't have been changed later, which it should.

Regarding a NorthshoreGlider, what if it went something like:

Northshore CityCat->Macarthur Ave->Hercules St->KSD->ICB->Abbotsford Rd/Markwell St/St Paul's Tce->Wharf St->Adelaide St.

This would also have the effect of addressing the utterly woeful service levels for most of the time (outside peak hours) along St Paul's Tce.

[aldonius]

The capacity needs of the 60 and of the 300 are wildly mismatched. Skyring Terrace (Gasworks) alone gets about 3/4 the boardings of the entire 300 route. (Plus the Ferry stop is about half as busy as Gasworks.)

Meanwhile, the Racecourse Road stops are some of the 300's busiest. So I think the 300 should be a daytime-frequent route (like the 390 or 375).

I agree that Hamilton Northshore needs to have a decent bus service, just like any other dense-ish part of the city. The way to do this is by re-routing the 305, which is currently a peak-only truncation of the 300. It too should eventually be a daytime-frequent route, timetabled to create night-time frequency on the shared corridor with the 300.

If you want to improve bus access in north-east Spring Hill, consider a route RBWH - Water St (rather than St Pauls Tce) - loop Edward/Alice/George/Turbot.

[#Metro]

Route 300 has the pax numbers to be a BUZ. So I am OK with that proposal.

I appreciate the argument that extending CityGlider to Portside would introduce duplication and perhaps that money is better spent on a BUZ 300 given that there is a ferry.

With Portside it is a challenge as demand is toward the city but also towards Toombul (as people want to shop as well).

The rail line to Portside has been ripped up (of course it has).

The Route 304 is too short to be very useful and it is infrequent because the train is infrequent - it would be better if it connected to Albion station IMHO.

On another note - would it be worthwhile to convert Doomben trains into a 3-car shuttle between Bowen Hills and Doomben? It might require a single side platform to be constructed at Eagle Junction. However, the frequency coud be increased to 30 min operation during the day or better.

[Gazza]

-Retain Blue glider, but reduce to 4bph offpeak.

-Upgrade 300 to HF to at least 9pm daily.

-Restructure the 301/304/305,
so you'd have a route serving the guts of Hamilton via Northshore Ferry, Doomben station and to Toombul, eventually upgrade to HF when the eastern end is built out.

-Another route to cover Lancaster and Crosby Rd.

-I think routes in the area should focus on Toombul rather than DFO.
DFO is basically just Woolies and some outlet stores.
Toombul has a wider variety of supermarkets, department stores, bunnings, a cinema, and a rail access to the north so is probably more useful as a day to day connection, and besides you can always interchange at Toombul for the 590.

[verbatim9]

-Retain Blue glider, but reduce to 4bph offpeak.

-Upgrade 300 to HF to at least 9pm daily.

-Restructure the 301/304/305,
so you'd have a route serving the guts of Hamilton via Northshore Ferry, Doomben station and to Toombul, eventually upgrade to HF when the eastern end is built out.

-Another route to cover Lancaster and Crosby Rd.

-I think routes in the area should focus on Toombul rather than DFO.
DFO is basically just Woolies and some outlet stores.
Toombul has a wider variety of supermarkets, department stores, bunnings, a cinema, and a rail access to the north so is probably more useful as a day to day connection, and besides you can always interchange at Toombul for the 590.

It's just no a Woolies @Gazza it's an Airport  and now  precinct  that is expanding tremendously. A Skygate Glider would act as an alternative route to the terminals and would provide through connection to the Airport and Cruise terminal precinct via the growth areas of Hamilton Newstead and the Valley.

We also still need those local street buses. I am against making the 300 a HF service it would take funds away from other important enhancements for PT.

People can catch the train or transfer to the 590 at Skygate if they really want to go to Toombul.

That said,

Retain the Blue Glider as is

Implement a Silver Skygate Glider every 15 mins via Hamilton North shore

Review the 305 after 3 months of the Skygate flyer being implemented.

[Gazza]

People can catch the train or transfer to the 590 at Skygate if they really want to go to Toombul.

People can catch the train and transfer to the 590 at Toombul if they really want to go to Skygate.

[techblitz]

If I was living at northshore....I would probably take my chances on a 304 - Doomben - eagle junction.....for way more rail options..

Re: Toombul vs Skygate;
Could always focus on both...(extend northshore bus route to Toombul via skygate and amend 590 frequency as an offset)

Im steering clear of comparing Toombul plaza/skygate as they are both important.
I just think its a wasted opportunity if we cant link northshore/portside with the doomben line/skygate(and those airport buses).

Northshore/portside will ultimately become a place of residence for many airport users...

[verbatim9]

People can catch the train or transfer to the 590 at Skygate if they really want to go to Toombul.

People can catch the train and transfer to the 590 at Toombul if they really want to go to Skygate.

The whole thing is that travel times are blown out via that route. People then lean towards driving which is happening. Toombul is not real the go to centre anyway for destination retail, Chermside is.

[Gazza]

Toombul is not real the go to centre anyway for destination retail, Chermside is.

Of course Chermside is the most major destination for the northside, but for residents in the quadrant essentially east of Sandgate road, then Toombul is the more relevant centre to their regular needs than Skygate, and it's more important to provide direct access to somewhere people go once or twice a a wee, than a factory outlet or airport terminal they might only visit a few times per year.

Plus Toombul has a bus interchange/rail and Skygate doesnt....

[James]

My response would be: look at where the patronage is. Route 300 runs every 20 minutes during the day. Route 305 is merely a peak-only short working of Route 300. Route 300 gets strong patronage. The answer here is to BUZ the 300.

Perhaps you could terminate the 305 at Northshore Hamilton rather than Racecourse Road to start off with.

It is also worth looking at the development going in - there's a few towers down at the ferry terminal itself, but aside from that it is all industrial between Portside and the ferry terminal, and it doesn't look like there's any development happening there any time soon. Portside is only a 600m walk from the nearest Route 300 stop - not ideal, but adequate given what a diversion to get the bus closer would do to the route.

It's just no a Woolies @Gazza it's an Airport  and now  precinct  that is expanding tremendously. A Skygate Glider would act as an alternative route to the terminals and would provide through connection to the Airport and Cruise terminal precinct via the growth areas of Hamilton Newstead and the Valley.

We also still need those local street buses. I am against making the 300 a HF service it would take funds away from other important enhancements for PT.

People can catch the train or transfer to the 590 at Skygate if they really want to go to Toombul.

I don't understand your desire for a glider to Skygate.

I think before we go changing any 'Glider' buses, we need to return to the original concept of the CityGlider. CityGlider services are turn-up-and-go services which serve high-density and activated parts of Brisbane's inner city, running with a long span of hours on weekdays (5am - 12am) and 24/7 on weekends.

The Blue CityGlider ticks this box exactly, serving Gasworks, the Valley, the CBD, Boundary Street & Montague Road. The termini at Teneriffe & West End provide convenient links to Bulimba & UQ respectively through the ferry network.
The Maroon CityGlider mostly ticks this box, serving Paddington, Caxton Street, the CBD, South Bank, the Gabba and Stones Corner. Ashgrove & Bardon are a left-over pork barrel from the Newman days.

Skygate (& DFO) may go off the hook during their opening hours of 10am - 6pm, but outside those hours there's very little else to "attract" people to the area aside from the 24/7 Woollies and the Golf place. There's also zero residential demand.

Similarly, while Northshore Hamilton has the Eat Street markets (which are a car-fuelled nightmare) & Portside, the precinct is dead after about 10pm, nor does it have the density of both population and of attractors to make a glider work. Without passing comment on the demographics in Hamilton - I also suspect it might not have the mix of younger people and students which tend to make 24/7 transit viable.

In terms of local mobility - Toombul is a far more relevant location, with supermarkets (multiple), food courts, department stores like Target and a connection to other buses/rail.

[verbatim9]

Toombul is not real the go to centre anyway for destination retail, Chermside is.

Of course Chermside is the most major destination for the northside, but for residents in the quadrant essentially east of Sandgate road, then Toombul is the more relevant centre to their regular needs than Skygate, and it's more important to provide direct access to somewhere people go once or twice a a wee, than a factory outlet or airport terminal they might only visit a few times per year.

Plus Toombul has a bus interchange/rail and Skygate doesnt....

The 300 is slow. A proposed Skygate Glider would take 35-40mins max. Provide a  service for the Hamilton and Valley growth corridor, Airport precinct workers, and tourists. Plus people who want an alternative quick route to the Airport and the new international cruise terminal. The BAC master plan includes a Skygate station so a new extra functional interchange will be present in the not to distant future. A proposed Skygate Glider can be subsidised with Airport precinct and Cruise related wraps with onboard next stop information and interim flash ads. More of a reason to leave the car at home when traveling to and from the airport precinct Hamilton North shore, Newstead, Valley and the CBD. The new 7 day Skygate Flyer 24 hours Friday Saturday nights.

[verbatim9]

^^I also think it will be difficult axe stops and provide an effective and efficient HF service for the route 300 due to the demographic.  So it's better to implement a brand new route which is less controversial and which matches best practice in bus stop spacing.

[timh]

Toombul is not real the go to centre anyway for destination retail, Chermside is.

Of course Chermside is the most major destination for the northside, but for residents in the quadrant essentially east of Sandgate road, then Toombul is the more relevant centre to their regular needs than Skygate, and it's more important to provide direct access to somewhere people go once or twice a a wee, than a factory outlet or airport terminal they might only visit a few times per year.

Plus Toombul has a bus interchange/rail and Skygate doesnt....

The 300 is slow. A proposed Skygate Glider would take 35-40mins max. Provide a  service for the Hamilton and Valley growth corridor, Airport precinct workers, and tourists. Plus people who want an alternative quick route to the Airport and the new international cruise terminal. The BAC master plan includes a Skygate station so a new extra functional interchange will be present in the not to distant future. A proposed Skygate Glider can be subsidised with Airport precinct and Cruise related wraps with onboard next stop information and interim flash ads. More of a reason to leave the car at home when traveling to and from the airport precinct Hamilton North shore, Newstead, Valley and the CBD. The new 7 day Skygate Flyer 24 hours Friday Saturday nights.

I'm with James. Despite what BAC wants you to think with their grand vision for Skygate, it is progressing incredibly slowly and is still, majorly, a clothing outlet place, a Woolies, and some big box stores. Their office precinct is nowhere near developed and I guarantee you the ridiculous racetrack car shop they want to build will not be attracting any customers via public transport.
The same goes for the rest of Skygate really. Customes don't want to get public transport there because people tend to buy a lot of stuff when they go there and prefer a car to put it all in. I don't think the route is justified for the workers, there simply isn't enough patronage ESPECIALLY 24 hourly.
City glider is for high density development. Hamilton meets that criteria, Skygate doesn't.

I think the best outcome you could hope for Verbatim is a Skygate railway station in the distant future. The land use in the area is not walkable enough to warrant a bus interchange, nor a city glider imo.

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[verbatim9]

Toombul is not real the go to centre anyway for destination retail, Chermside is.

Of course Chermside is the most major destination for the northside, but for residents in the quadrant essentially east of Sandgate road, then Toombul is the more relevant centre to their regular needs than Skygate, and it's more important to provide direct access to somewhere people go once or twice a a wee, than a factory outlet or airport terminal they might only visit a few times per year.

Plus Toombul has a bus interchange/rail and Skygate doesnt....

The 300 is slow. A proposed Skygate Glider would take 35-40mins max. Provide a  service for the Hamilton and Valley growth corridor, Airport precinct workers, and tourists. Plus people who want an alternative quick route to the Airport and the new international cruise terminal. The BAC master plan includes a Skygate station so a new extra functional interchange will be present in the not to distant future. A proposed Skygate Glider can be subsidised with Airport precinct and Cruise related wraps with onboard next stop information and interim flash ads. More of a reason to leave the car at home when traveling to and from the airport precinct Hamilton North shore, Newstead, Valley and the CBD. The new 7 day Skygate Flyer 24 hours Friday Saturday nights.

I'm with James. Despite what BAC wants you to think with their grand vision for Skygate, it is progressing incredibly slowly and is still, majorly, a clothing outlet place, a Woolies, and some big box stores. Their office precinct is nowhere near developed and I guarantee you the ridiculous racetrack car shop they want to build will not be attracting any customers via public transport.
The same goes for the rest of Skygate really. Customes don't want to get public transport there because people tend to buy a lot of stuff when they go there and prefer a car to put it all in. I don't think the route is justified for the workers, there simply isn't enough patronage ESPECIALLY 24 hourly.
City glider is for high density development. Hamilton meets that criteria, Skygate doesn't.

I think the best outcome you could hope for Verbatim is a Skygate railway station in the distant future. The land use in the area is not walkable enough to warrant a bus interchange, nor a city glider imo.

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If you are going to implement a HF service to Hamilton North Shore extending it to Skygate Interchange would be cost effective. Despite no rail station in the interim. The 24 hour weekend service would provide a Nightlink service for people in Newstead, Breakfast creek, Old Hamilton, Ascot and the new Hamilton North Shore.

[James]

The 24 hour weekend service would provide a Nightlink service for people in Newstead, Breakfast creek, Old Hamilton, Ascot and the new Hamilton North Shore.

No.

NightLink is an hourly, one-way service which runs five times a night (between 12:30am and 5:30am) with the sole purpose of getting people home. FWIW, the patronage for NightLink are appalling anyway, so nothing more than an hourly service is really justifiable - it's a welfare service, with the key benefit being less drunks at cab ranks and less drunk drivers. You don't have this concentration of venues serving alcohol in Hamilton.

If these people need a NightLink service, provide an N300, don't provide them with a glider which gives quadruple the service level and counter-peak service.

If you are going to implement a HF service to Hamilton North Shore extending it to Skygate Interchange would be cost effective. Despite no rail station in the interim.

Cost effective? According to who?

I have just stated that:

Skygate (& DFO) may go off the hook during their opening hours of 10am - 6pm, but outside those hours there's very little else to "attract" people to the area aside from the 24/7 Woollies and the Golf place. There's also zero residential demand.

What about 'zero demand' makes a route 'cost effective'? Not to mention it is a 6km extension from Northshore Hamilton to the DFO, which equates to 48km in-service per hour. That could provide an hourly NightLink service for most of the Beenleigh line.

[verbatim9]

Night link.is two way with Glider services.

Plus drivers require safe and secure amenities. Skygate is the ideal terminus for  that, due to the amenities able to be accessed 24/7.

[timh]

Night link.is two way with Glider services.

Plus drivers require safe and secure amenities. Skygate is the ideal terminus for  that, due to the amenities able to be accessed 24/7.

I have been at that Woolies at midnight. Trust me the amount of people going there at that time does not justify 4bph

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[verbatim9]

Night link.is two way with Glider services.

Plus drivers require safe and secure amenities. Skygate is the ideal terminus for  that, due to the amenities able to be accessed 24/7.

I have been at that Woolies at midnight. Trust me the amount of people going there at that time does not justify 4bph

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I am not talking about a service for Woolies. You, James and Gazza are fixated on Woolworths for some kind of reason, being positive or negative.

Glider services after midnight are not every 15 mins on weekends Fri and Sat nights anyway.

Terminating and turning around  a service at a secure camera fed location is a lot better than a dark dingy spot somewhere at Hamilton North Shore

[timh]

Night link.is two way with Glider services.

Plus drivers require safe and secure amenities. Skygate is the ideal terminus for  that, due to the amenities able to be accessed 24/7.

I have been at that Woolies at midnight. Trust me the amount of people going there at that time does not justify 4bph

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I am not talking about a service for Woolies. You, James and Gazza are fixated on Woolworths for some kind of reason, being positive or negative.

Afaik there's nothing else at Skygate open 24/7. I think there's a chemist and an airport hotel. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's why I'm fixated on it, because as far as I know that's all that's open there past 9pm

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[Gazza]

The 300 is slow. A proposed Skygate Glider would take 35-40mins max.

Ok but the 300 takes 30 mins Toombul to Anzac Square so I think you're being a bit biased here.

Anyhow, here's the current development of Northshore.
Most of the development is clustered at the Western end, acessible to the 300 stop.

So basically a glider at the present time would run past empty industrial land to the 2nd cluster of housing, then past a fair bit of empty stuff to reach DFO.

I think say in 10 years time you would do a HF route running the length of MacArthur avenue when more of it is built up, but the 300 is a much more immediate need because it has proven passenger numbers and there's heaps of infill happening in Ascot anyway.

[verbatim9]

FYI there are five confirmed new towers going up in the next two years in the areas that you mentioned. Hence growth area.

Nearly 24,000 people currently work at the airport and Skygate precinct (pre-covid) every day 24/7 and there are over 425 businesses servicing a diverse range of industries.

A new Skygate Flyer can potentially service some of these workers.

[verbatim9]

The 300 is slow. A proposed Skygate Glider would take 35-40mins max.

Ok but the 300 takes 30 mins Toombul to Anzac Square so I think you're being a bit biased here.

Takes at least 40 mins and that's on a good run.