Queensland Train Manufacturing Program (QTMP)

[ozbob]

TMR is responsible for delivering the REP.

^ Let's hope they have learned the lessons of the NGR debacle Cazza ...   

[SteelPan]

Pretty much anything QT/QR touch is based on emotive language to distract from the bloated price tag....

[ozbob]

I think the initial order of 20 x 6 car sets needs to be bumped up at at least 30 sets, and accelerated.

[achiruel]

I think the initial order of 20 x 6 car sets needs to be bumped up at at least 30 sets, and accelerated.

I doubt EDI will be able to churn them out any earlier or faster. Isn't that part of the reason the NGR order went offshore?

[ozbob]

I think the initial order of 20 x 6 car sets needs to be bumped up at at least 30 sets, and accelerated.

I doubt EDI will be able to churn them out any earlier or faster. Isn't that part of the reason the NGR order went offshore?

But they are not doing the trains for Perth anymore (Alstom is doing that in Perth).  I don't think it will be a problem.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I think the initial order of 20 x 6 car sets needs to be bumped up at at least 30 sets, and accelerated.

I doubt EDI will be able to churn them out any earlier or faster. Isn't that part of the reason the NGR order went offshore?

Not quite. It was a mix of a few things. Newman was pushing forward with privatisation plans. As part of those plans it meant delivering a larger fleet with doo options and phasing out older costly rollingstock and existing rollingstock facilities very quickly within a set timeline (the same happened internally to staff across the board with other internal positions now outsourced to other providers, apprentices not renewed, large incentives for front line staff to take redundancies despite saying no front line cuts along with a few other things). On paper it was to be good when looking at $$$ while in reality a sh%t storm was brewing and any fixes wouldn't be States responsibility. Maryborough couldn't deliver due to existing constraints with fixed 6 car trains and would also be responsible for Wulkuraka. They were fine with renewing the QR rollingstock refurb contract due to Aurizon/Redbank cancelling the contract and also the potential SMU200 rewiring contract. Mass production overseas was the only way to fit within those plans, at that cost and within that timeline.

As Bob pointed out they have now finished the Perth contract, not all the 200s got rewired and they got a hefty facility infrastructure upgrade thanks to TMR for the NGR fix contract.

[HappyTrainGuy]

For those interested in the REP.

https://gateway.icn.org.au/project/4647/rollingstock-expansion-program

[ozbob]

For those interested in the REP.

https://gateway.icn.org.au/project/4647/rollingstock-expansion-program

Thanks.  Excellent.

[ozbob]

https://gateway.icn.org.au/project/4647/rollingstock-expansion-program

Rollingstock Expansion Program

Project Details
South East Queensland (SEQ) continues to experience strong population growth, generating more demand for public transport. The Shaping SEQ plan predicts SEQ will be home to an extra 1.9 million people by 2041, with the total regional population growing to around 5.3 million.

This population growth and the transport network demand growth, along with the delivery of Cross River Rail (CRR) in 2025/26 calls for increased rail network service levels. This proposed increase drives the need for more tunnel-capable rollingstock ready for when CRR opens and beyond.

The Department of Transport and Main Roads (TMR) recently conducted analysis which has indicated that a rollingstock expansion in the order of up to 65 additional six-car Electric Multiple Units (EMUs) will be required over the next 10 years to deliver service uplift and meet demand (REP).  TMR is responsible for delivering the REP.  The Queensland Government's investment in the REP is designed to benefit local communities and businesses and create local jobs.

The REP will include a single Design, Build and Maintain contract for a successful supplier to deliver the Rollingstock, Maintenance and Manufacturing Package (RMM Package).

It is currently contemplated that the RMM Package will include the following key components:

Initial Fleet of 20-six car EMUs and options for a further 45, six-car EMUs (together the Rollingstock Fleet)
Manufacturing Facility; and
Maintenance of the Rollingstock Fleet.

In line with the Queensland Government's commitment to source locally, a manufacturing facility for both the RMM Package and future rollingstock manufacturing activities will be secured and funded by TMR and established by the successful rollingstock supplier.

TMR is currently investigating options for maintenance facilities to be used for maintaining the new Rollingstock Fleet, including existing facilities or design and construction of a new facility (which would be included as part of the RMM Package).

Queensland Rail will operate the Rollingstock Fleet delivered by the RMM Package. ...

[BrizCommuter]

I previously calculated around 40 new trains were required to meet the (now impossible) proposed services for CRR and 7 trains to optimise the pre-CRR and ETCS network .

[ozbob]

I previously calculated around 40 new trains were required to meet the (now impossible) proposed services for CRR and 7 trains to optimise the pre-CRR and ETCS network .

Thanks.

[achiruel]

I previously calculated around 40 new trains were required to meet the (now impossible) proposed services for CRR and 7 trains to optimise the pre-CRR and ETCS network .

Was that based on at least some of the 200s retiring? Because it looks like that'll be happening sooner than expected.

[ozbob]

https://www.queenslandrail.com.au/aboutus/organisation/citytrain-fleet

EMU ?

SMU 200 12 x 3 car

SMU 220  30 x 3 car

SMU 260  36 x 3 car

IMU 100   10 x 3 car

IMU 120    4 x 3 car

IMU 160   28 x 3 car

ICE  ?

NGR 75 x 6 car

====

Just a reminder where train numbers sit.

Why was it reduced to 75 6-Car Units?

- We know that the 100, 120, 200 and 220 Series are being overhauled/upgraded as part of a mid-life extension program.  This can be seen in the recent transfer of SMU 202 and 210 to Walkers/Downer in Maryborough.  That's 28 6-Car Units (10+4+12+30 3-Car Units) accounted for.
- We know the 160 and 260 Series will also undergo some form of upgrade program. That's 32 6-Car Units (28+36 3-Car Units) accounted for.
- We know the EMU is being withdrawn and that's 43.5 6-Car Units (or 87 3-Car Units).
- We know the ICE is being withdrawn and that's 4 6-Car Units (or 8 'Power Pair').
- That's a total of 107.5 6-Car Units.

After the retirements of all EMU and ICE and the addition of the 700 Series, there will be a total of 135 6-Car Units.

QR trumpeted a fleet increase of 30 percent which equates to a total of 140 6-Car Units.  The bean counters have obviously found fleet management/allocation savings of 5 6-Car Units some where in their little balance sheet.

So there will be 75 NGRs (6 car) and 60 other six car trains.

The NGRs will have to run in CRR because of the ATP requirements, and grade issues.

It is possible that the Ferny Grove line may never see NGRs in routine revenue service until more trains are ordered.

So with the retirement of EMU and ICE the net  fleet gain with the 75 NGRs is only 20.3%.

[ozbob]

If the SMU 200s go.  Clearly not enough trains.

[HappyTrainGuy]

210 and 208? I believe are the only ones that electrical work done to them a couple years back. IIRC SMU205/212 are still stowed with the pantos down in the unwired section with the EMUs at Redbank since early Jan or late December last year.

[Stillwater]

I am intrigued by this wording: "This proposed increase drives the need for more tunnel-capable rollingstock ready for when CRR opens and beyond." I take it that NGRs are "tunnel capable". Which trains in the QR fleet won't be "tunnel ready"?

[timh]

I am intrigued by this wording: "This proposed increase drives the need for more tunnel-capable rollingstock ready for when CRR opens and beyond." I take it that NGRs are "tunnel capable". Which trains in the QR fleet won't be "tunnel ready"?

All of the other ones afaik. It's my understanding that it's been publicised that NGRs will be the only current trains in the fleet that will be able to operate in CRR

Sent from my SM-G780F using Tapatalk

[ozbob]

Yo, NGRs tunnel trains capable. Due to ATP ( ATO + PSD ), crash and fire safety requirements yadda yadda.

*" The New Generation Rollingstock (NGR) trains are providing a significant increase to the capacity of the South East Queensland train fleet. "

https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/New-Generation-Rollingstock

*bullsh%t !  They believe their own spin. As shown above the touted +30% was not correct. The idiotic decision to cut the reduce the initial train order from 200 x 3 car to 100 x 6 then 75 x 6 car NGRs is now exposed.  Another DTMR failure compromised by political incompetence. 

Do you see what is happening in the silos of incompetence and bumble?  They changed the messaging for Cross River Rail from " More trains more often " to " transform the way you will travel " because they know there WILL NOT BE MORE TRAINS MORE OFTEN.  No wonder they hide operational details for CRR.  They are attempting a brainwashing exercise to hide the incompetence.  Well, some of us are not so silly hey?

Minister Bailey and those in Government swallow up the spin from within.  The Opposition is useless.

How soon will the trains with these REP (NNGR) be ready?  2025 <  doubt it.  Probably 2027 at the earliest.  Will DTMR be able to ensure the trains are actually DDA compliant?     Frankly, how can we trust them.

This REP needs acceleration and I suggest a minimum of 30 x 6 car sets before 2024.

On it Lurkers ... 

STAND CLEAR!  Cross River Rail Fail is arriving soon!

[BrizCommuter]

BrizCommuter: New Trains, but Not Enough.
https://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2021/06/new-trains-but-not-enough.html

[#Metro]

Great post, as always 

Here we go again!!

[ozbob]

 

Facebook ...

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1401056143363829760

[ozbob]

BrizCommuter: New Trains, but Not Enough.
https://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2021/06/new-trains-but-not-enough.html

Thanks Briz.

Sent to all outlets.

[SABB]

I am intrigued by this wording: "This proposed increase drives the need for more tunnel-capable rollingstock ready for when CRR opens and beyond." I take it that NGRs are "tunnel capable". Which trains in the QR fleet won't be "tunnel ready"?

At their lowest point, the CRR tunnels combine the tightest curve allowed with the steepest grade allowed - a combination not used by rail alignment designers outside of the CRRDA. Only the NGR trains have sufficient power to negotiate this alignment/grade combination. QR tech staff brought this fact to the attention of the CRRDA and were promptly ignored. The CRRDA are required to consult with QR but are not obligated to implement or address any of QR's concerns.  I understand that there may also be issues with a failed NGR train being caught at the bottom of the tunnel i.e. how do you pull it out ?

[#Metro]

At their lowest point, the CRR tunnels combine the tightest curve allowed with the steepest grade allowed - a combination not used by rail alignment designers outside of the CRRDA.

I thought this was a train project not a rollercoaster ride. 

[ozbob]

^ it has been a long ride since 2009 or thereabouts #Metro with CRR. 

You remind me of the scenic railway at Luna Park (St Kilda) in Melbourne.  I used ride my bicycle to St Kilda when I lived in Windsor when a nipper, or sometimes I would catch the tram. I used to spend hours on it ... lol.

" ... The Scenic Railway at Luna Park in St Kilda has been on the go since 1912.
Mostly works by gravity and the skills of the brakeman who stands for every ride. ... "



^ brakeman standing

[ozbob]

I am intrigued by this wording: "This proposed increase drives the need for more tunnel-capable rollingstock ready for when CRR opens and beyond." I take it that NGRs are "tunnel capable". Which trains in the QR fleet won't be "tunnel ready"?

At their lowest point, the CRR tunnels combine the tightest curve allowed with the steepest grade allowed - a combination not used by rail alignment designers outside of the CRRDA. Only the NGR trains have sufficient power to negotiate this alignment/grade combination. QR tech staff brought this fact to the attention of the CRRDA and were promptly ignored. The CRRDA are required to consult with QR but are not obligated to implement or address any of QR's concerns.  I understand that there may also be issues with a failed NGR train being caught at the bottom of the tunnel i.e. how do you pull it out ?

If there is power probably with another NGR.  No power then possibly a DEL but not sure of the ventilation arrangements in the tunnel.

[SABB]

I am intrigued by this wording: "This proposed increase drives the need for more tunnel-capable rollingstock ready for when CRR opens and beyond." I take it that NGRs are "tunnel capable". Which trains in the QR fleet won't be "tunnel ready"?

At their lowest point, the CRR tunnels combine the tightest curve allowed with the steepest grade allowed - a combination not used by rail alignment designers outside of the CRRDA. Only the NGR trains have sufficient power to negotiate this alignment/grade combination. QR tech staff brought this fact to the attention of the CRRDA and were promptly ignored. The CRRDA are required to consult with QR but are not obligated to implement or address any of QR's concerns.  I understand that there may also be issues with a failed NGR train being caught at the bottom of the tunnel i.e. how do you pull it out ?

If there is power probably with another NGR.  No power then possibly a DEL but not sure of the ventilation arrangements in the tunnel.

If you use another NGR, won't the combined NGRs now have only half of the power/weight ratio of a single NGR. In regard to a DEL, do the couplings match ?

[ozbob]

NGRs have a high TE at low speed. (they are rated at 4000kW - 16 traction motors rated at 250 kW each).
I am sure they would have a coupling adapter for use as needed as well should a DEL be needed - they routinely tow NGRs around our network.

The Queensland Railways 3900 class had a Tractive effort of 2,890 kW.

I have been in situations where Tait trains have moved a steam loco and 8 passenger cars.  They are only 1500V DC.

[#Metro]

For the uninitiated, could you explain TE and DEL and their significance? 

[ozbob]

For the uninitiated, could you explain TE and DEL and their significance? 

Tractive effort > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tractive_force

DEL diesel electric locomotive > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_locomotive#Diesel%E2%80%93electric

[HappyTrainGuy]

Emergency couplers are fitted at both cab ends on all NGRs behind the first set of traction motors. You can see the boxes that house them when looking at them from the platform as they are mounted under the body.

[verbatim9]

New specs for the 20  new trains that are needed.

Min six 9 car sets

min speed 160kph

able to negotiate the Toowoomba range

LED lighting throughout

Next generation automated announcements and visual cues.

Reflect best practices in Australian and International DDA design

USB charging and standard power outlets  throughout.

Bicycle bays

Better ceiling clearance throughout the carriages.

Automated ramps for accessible carriages where platforms are not level

ETCS 2/3 ready for driver only operations and automation post 2032.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Insert foam picture here.

[verbatim9]

Insert foam picture here.

They are reasonable requests for trains specs which other jurisdictions have reasonably managed to order in their trains, except for the 160 kph. But this is unique for Se Qld with the distances to cover from Bne to Toowoomba Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast. The ETCS 2/3 ready component is a must have. The 9 car sets have been extensively discussed about and most are in favour.

[ozbob]

Emergency couplers are fitted at both cab ends on all NGRs behind the first set of traction motors. You can see the boxes that house them when looking at them from the platform as they are mounted under the body.

Thanks!

Thinking more about the possibility of power failure in the tunnel stranding a train.  The ventilation not being suitable for DELs.  There might well be a need for a battery/electric hybrid shunter locomotive to be on standby for train retrieval should that be necessary.  If the overhead power is still available and it is a just a train failure I would expect a NGR could be used to push/pull failed unit train out of the tunnel.  If there is no power then a hybrid shunter locomotive is probably needed.

Example: https://www.alstom.com/our-solutions/rolling-stock/prima-h3-prima-h4-shunting-eco-friendly-attitude

" ... bi-mode (Prima H4) to switch between electrified and catenaryless lines, and bi-mode battery (Prima H4) which integrates the added benefits of battery power.  ... "



Alstom Prima H4

https://www.flickr.com/photos/78631472@N03/49944623137

A 3 ft 6 in (1,067 mm) gauge version would not be that difficult.  They would need two.

[ozbob]

With respect to specifications for NNGRs.  They would be similar to the NGRs no doubt (the NGRs can be configured into 9 car sets).

I think there is going to be a bigger muddle though.

Will end up 3 train fleets being managed by 3 different outfits.

1.  Queensland Rail Citytrain fleet.

2.  NGR train fleet (Alstom/DTMR).

3.  NNGR train fleet.  ?

So much for saving money ....   

[HappyTrainGuy]

Insert foam picture here.

They are reasonable requests for trains specs which other jurisdictions have reasonably managed to order in their trains, except for the 160 kph. But this is unique for Se Qld with the distances to cover from Bne to Toowoomba Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast. The ETCS 2/3 ready component is a must have. The 9 car sets have been extensively discussed about and most are in favour.

This is a electric contract for the Sunshine Coast-Brisbane-Gold Coast area. Toowoomba will not see electrified trains. This is not a DMU contract.

IMU160, SMU260, IMU100, IMU120 and NGR are designed around 160kph with a 140kph max operating speed. 160/260 rollingstock actually had their acceleration rates lowered because drivers were damaging the traction motors during testing. Above that you need substantial wind proofing and better suspension to keep passengers happier further increasing costs for a time saving of not that much when you consider the fat already in the timetable to allow for passes, level crossing crosses and spacing so trains aren't up the arse of other trains.

NGR/NGR2/NNGR are based around 9 car configuration. As far as I know there are 9 stabling upgrades to allow for 9 car stock. All stations would need to be upgraded on their route and they aren't easy to split due to their walk through nature. As good as it would be to have 9 car trains from the offset. Realistically 6 car set from the offset. Once the bugs are done then depending on who is running the show that's when you will get 9 car trains ordered.

Bob. All part of getting ready to long term privatise the network and sell off Mayne to developers. They have already done this at Albion with the traction line guys being moved, that land to be sold to the Albion developers who will in turn build a new underground multi-storey car park for the train station. There were similar talks/plans to get something similar when qr was split for the Mayne yard/car wash but that went quiet when aurizon offered some diesels onnthe cheap.

[MTPCo]

With regards to the recovery of trains in the tunnel, it's common practice (and I should emphasise I don't know what the arrangements are with NGR and CRR) to include a performance requirement to enable one train to recover another to certify them for tunnel usage. This might take the form of something like "a crush loaded train must be able to push another crush loaded train which has failed out of the tunnel". In the worst case where you have two trains in a tunnel section (between stations) this would usually involve pushing the first train to the station, detraining, then moving forward to allow the second (powered) train to detrain, and then both of them leaving (empty) to the surface.

I would expect something similar for the NGR, and ozbob's statements about the high TE would tend to align with this approach.

[ozbob]

^ thanks.  Yes, that would seem to be the situation. The only issue to resolve I think would be when the OHT is not available, unlikely but possible I guess.