Queensland Train Manufacturing Program (QTMP)

[verbatim9]

^^We should move the political discussion to the political thread. It just drowns out the real issues in the public transport related threads.

[ozbob]

Most of the recent discussion in this thread is of some relevance to the REP.

It's OK. 

[ozbob]

Queensland Parliament

https://documents.parliament.qld.gov.au/tableOffice/questionsAnswers/2021/1015-2021.pdf

Question on Notice

No. 1015

Asked on 2 September 2021

MR D PURDIE ASKED MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND MAIN ROADS (HON M BAILEY)

QUESTION:

Will the Minister provide a list of all meetings the Minister and/or his office staff have had since
1 January 2020 with (a) Downer Rail, (b) CAF and (c) Alstom?

ANSWER:

I thank the Member for Ninderry for the question.

As a key part of their role, my staff consult with a variety of stakeholders relevant to my portfolio
areas, including members of the opposition. Details of all meetings which I have attended with
my staff are publicly available.

To ensure probity of the process and compliance with the conditions governing the invitation for
the expression of interest procurement process, I wrote to all ministers on 23 December 2020.
I encouraged ministers and their staff in the event of any engagement, to:

 have two or more ministerial or government staff present during any meetings with
interested parties

 appropriately record minutes of meetings and make clear from the outset the rollingstock
procurement will not be discussed

 note it would not be appropriate to accept any hospitality or other events with interested
parties during the procurement period.

[BrizCommuter]

" Anticipated commencement of retirement " EMUs 2025 

 

Commencement ... My hunch is they will still be running to Ferny Grove in 2032 Briz !!

It'll be Brisbane's version of The Rattler.

[kram0]

People coming to Brisbane 2032 from Singapore, Europe and Japan will think they are riding on a tourist heritage train on the way to the opening ceremony!! 

[#Metro]

Need to have standards. Trains should be scrapped or sold after a set period just like buses. Could be 15-20 years max.

Melbourne sometimes pulled the ancient Hitachi trains into service a "box on wheels" experience, the same with BCC buses before they were modernised in the mid 2000s.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Trains aren't like buses. They are constructed very differently and have different lifespans. Image how long a 40t bus would last.

[#Metro]

So what? Still should be scrapped after a certain period.

[Gazza]

They should of course, but 30-35 years is a good lifespan.

For example Perth has A series trains from 1992 that are in good nick.

[verbatim9]

Even though the Government has pledged to make trains in Maryborough. They will find it difficult to fulfil quotas for new trains without partially filling the order outside of Australia, together with a major multi national train manufacturer.

[Fares_Fair]

Queensland Parliament

https://documents.parliament.qld.gov.au/tableOffice/questionsAnswers/2021/1015-2021.pdf

Question on Notice

No. 1015

Asked on 2 September 2021

MR D PURDIE ASKED MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND MAIN ROADS (HON M BAILEY)

QUESTION:

Will the Minister provide a list of all meetings the Minister and/or his office staff have had since
1 January 2020 with (a) Downer Rail, (b) CAF and (c) Alstom?

ANSWER:

I thank the Member for Ninderry for the question.

As a key part of their role, my staff consult with a variety of stakeholders relevant to my portfolio
areas, including members of the opposition. Details of all meetings which I have attended with
my staff are publicly available.

To ensure probity of the process and compliance with the conditions governing the invitation for
the expression of interest procurement process, I wrote to all ministers on 23 December 2020.
I encouraged ministers and their staff in the event of any engagement, to:

 have two or more ministerial or government staff present during any meetings with
interested parties

 appropriately record minutes of meetings and make clear from the outset the rollingstock
procurement will not be discussed

 note it would not be appropriate to accept any hospitality or other events with interested
parties during the procurement period.

A rather extreme reaction to a fairly standard question on notice.. 

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Jeffrey_Addison/status/1447822083795292163

[ozbob]

Might be some news on the REP later today ...

[ozbob]

^

🚆 BREAKING 🚆
We're building 65 trains right here in Queensland.
Trains built by Queenslanders, for Queenslanders 💪
The Palaszczuk Government is investing $7.1 billion to make sure we have enough trains for our growing south-east corner,
Cross River Rail, and the 2032 Olympics and Paralympic Games.
The trains will be made in Maryborough, building on the city's long train build legacy.
This investment will create up to 3000 jobs across the state 👏

[#Metro]

What's wrong with buying them from Perth or Melbourne?

[verbatim9]

Yeah saw that in the Couriermail the train order is now increased to 65.

I wonder if Alstom will be the manufacturing partner?

[ozbob]

The initial order was to be for 20 six car trains, with an option for an additional 45 six car trains.

They have now exercised the option.  Good news.  As we have always advocated, 20 trains simply not enough.

Time to further innovate ...

https://twitter.com/seatsixtyone/status/1401887758843531264

[Cazza]

Is this a commitment to build all 65, rather than the previous commitment to just 20 with the option for another 45?

And is there a timeline for design, construction and implementation of them?

Edit: just answered the first question

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1450642683429462030

[Gazza]

What's wrong with buying them from Perth or Melbourne?

Whats wrong with using Downer EDI?

[ozbob]

https://statements.qld.gov.au/statements/93566

Central Queensland wins big in historic investment in train manufacturing
20th October 2021

JOINT STATEMENT

Premier and Minister for the Olympics
The Honourable Annastacia Palaszczuk

Minister for Transport and Main Roads
The Honourable Mark Bailey

Central Queensland will benefit from the largest investment in train infrastructure in Queensland's history, announced by the Palaszczuk Government today.

Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk said Central Queensland would play a key role in the supply-chain as part of the state's $7.1 billion to boost the state's train manufacturing industry and build 65 trains in Maryborough, creating up to 3000 jobs throughout Queensland.

"We're investing in manufacturing to create jobs in regional Queensland," the Premier said.

"At the election, we pledged $600 million to build 20 new trains in Maryborough with an option for a further 45.

"It's now clear we'll need a full complement of trains to cater for growth in years to come.

"I want Queensland to benefit from this $7.1 billion investment. That means jobs for workers throughout our state."

Member for Rockhampton Barry O'Rourke said the plan will support jobs and infrastructure growth for the entire Central Queensland region.

"Central Queensland has a proud rail history dating back to the 1800's, and the Palaszczuk Government is committed to continuing the region's legacy," Mr O'Rourke said.

"We're in the process of acquiring the Rockhampton Rail Workshops, and now this historic investment in Queensland rail manufacturing and supply will no doubt attract more rail suppliers to the region.

"Once set up, the Rockhampton Rail Workshops have the potential to play a pivotal role in the supply chain.

"The industry can come to Central Queensland with confidence, knowing the Palaszczuk Government is committed to keeping rail manufacturing and supply local."

Member for Keppel Brittany Lauga said it follows another recent rail investment in the region.

"Just last week we were at Austrak's 50-worker strong Parkhurst facility announcing a three-year contract renewal to supply Queensland Rail's sleepers," Ms Lauga said.

"Now to see an investment of this scale across Queensland's rail network, suppliers can be even more confident coming and setting up shop in Central Queensland."

Transport and Main Roads Minister Mark Bailey said the rail plan would create jobs in Central Queensland to support Queensland's plan for economic recovery.

"Labor's plan is about locking in secure jobs and training opportunities for a generation of Queensland workers," Mr Bailey said.

"That includes in Central Queensland, where locals will benefit from a guaranteed pipeline of investment.

"Queensland built trains. Made by Queenslanders, for Queenslanders."

Cross River Rail is on track for first services to begin operating in 2025.

ENDS

[nathandavid88]

What’s wrong with buying them from Perth or Melbourne?

Whats wrong with using Downer EDI?

Sounds like they won't be using Downer EDI's works:

“We are delivering a pipeline of work over the next decade that will support up to 800 construction and manufacturing jobs here in Maryborough.

“First, we will construct a purpose-built, publicly-owned train manufacturing facility at Torbanlea, north of Maryborough.

“Not only are we delivering trains, this $7.1 billion investment includes new rail infrastructure in the South-East and ongoing maintenance of Queensland’s newest fleet.”

Member for Maryborough Bruce Saunders said land at Torbanlea had already been selected for the new train building facility.

"The process to secure a property at Torbanlea, which is within 25km of the Maryborough CBD, is well underway,” he said.

Source: https://statements.qld.gov.au/statements/93565

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

20th October 2021

Rollingstock expansion program - now 65 six car trains

Greetings,

RAIL Back On Track welcomes today's announcement of the further committment by the Queensland Government to build another 45 six car trains in addition to the 20 six car trains already committed (1). These trains will be needed to be in place by 2032.

With this next generation of trains all efforts should be made to equip these trains with automatic ramps/retractable steps (2).  Rolling stock has such a long life time, we need to ensure the tender specifications have not only community expectations of now at front of mind but also the future horizons of 2032.

Exciting news, new trains for Queensland built in Queensland.

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

1. Central Queensland wins big in historic investment in train manufacturing https://statements.qld.gov.au/statements/93566

2. Greater Anglia's new trains recognised for accessibility innovation https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/about-us/news-desk/news-articles/greater-anglias-new-trains-recognised-accessibility-innovation

[verbatim9]

I hope this leads to further electrification and manufacturing of electric locomotives for freight.

[ozbob]

Facebook ...

[verbatim9]

Just to to tone down the announcemt a bit. The Government is unlikely to be the manufacturer. They will own the sheds and partner with a multinational manufacturer to use those sheds for manufacturing.

The manufacturer will always own the patents and the manufacturing know how not the Government.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1450679696866217988

[HappyTrainGuy]

I hope this leads to further electrification and manufacturing of electric locomotives for freight.

Hahahaha 

[ozbob]

A comment on our Facebook post.

https://www.facebook.com/RAILBackOnTrack/posts/5009768289037318?comment_id=5009800715700742

Let's hope these trains have a greater speed than 140.
We have long straight tracks where 160 - 180 is very capable but we don't have the trains that are able to do it.
Here's to hoping!

^ Good point.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/InclusionMoves/status/1450692660440694794

[HappyTrainGuy]

A comment on our Facebook post.

https://www.facebook.com/RAILBackOnTrack/posts/5009768289037318?comment_id=5009800715700742

Let's hope these trains have a greater speed than 140.
We have long straight tracks where 160 - 180 is very capable but we don't have the trains that are able to do it.
Here's to hoping!

^ Good point.

Issues start to arise at 160kph+. That being sound, ride comfort and vibration. Then comes suspension and gearing/traction motors. All which adds weight and cost. Take the old HS-SMU220 mods. That was purely a software change to increase speed to match IMU running times. Problem was wheel wear was extremely dramatic as was vibrations at the higher end. IIRC the 160/260 can also run faster but they were damaging traction motors during testing/revenue service and had their acceleration rates changed.

Even on the ngrs when they get up to speed you can hear areas where they have cheaped out on the internal fitout with parts rattling and rubbing around. Not saying that it's not possible but given TMR's history of cost cutting railway projects....

[verbatim9]

https://twitter.com/9NewsQueensland/status/1450741137728327680

[verbatim9]

Oh, the Government have said that the first of the new trains will be on the tracks by 2025.

[BrizCommuter]

 65 new trains. Common sense has prevailed at last!

[Fares_Fair]

Great news.
We may now get the extra 9 daily trains we were promised by Jackie Trad in 2015 for 2016.

The biggest question - who will make them?
Alstom, CAF or Downer Rail?

[ozbob]

In QLD --> On the fast track: Maryborough to be centre of multi-billion dollar rail investment

The Palaszczuk Government has confirmed Maryborough as a major manufacturing centre after promising a $7 billion investment in making and operating the state's train infrastructure.

Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk announced 65 new trains would be built at a special facility at Torbanlea, north of the city, in a major step forward for local rail manufacture.

She said that while the government had promised before the last election to build 20 new trains at Maryborough, that number needed to be boosted to 65 trains to meet expected demand. ...

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1450838154928222213

... A separately funded $334 million project to fix by 2024 the poor disability access on the 75 NGR trains built to specifications in the 2013 contract has a long way to go.

Five of the required 75 trains have had their problems repaired and in the Citytrain fleet, Mr Bailey said.

"Another seven NGR trains are currently being upgraded and will soon re-enter passenger service."

Mr Bailey said the pace of disability modifications had been slow because it involved considerable setting work to make the modifications.

"Acceleration options" for the remaining work was being explored and the 2024 deadline would be met, he said.

[verbatim9]

Some people have identified why the project is costing around 7 billion? When 65 new trains plus the set costs only equate to 5 billion.

For comparison, the NGR program, which included 75 new trains, new stabling and maintenance facilities at Wulkuraka, and maintenance for 32 years cost $4.4 billion.

Source - Brisbane Public Transport thread, Skyscrapercity.com.

[Cazza]

Generally, locally built things cost more than overseas built things. This is a big part of why (from what I'm aware) the manufacturing was outsourced to India to save money. So of course these trains will cost more.

I would also have a guess that there is room for contingency in there too, considering they have come out and said "we are going to build 65 new trains". They wouldn't necessarily know what standards, features, specifications etc. etc. etc. are going to be built/used (and from what I've seen, they haven't yet contracted a manufacturer yet). Since this is all up in the air, I wouldn't be surprised if this figure is reduced in the near future once all these questions are answered.

[SurfRail]

The DTMR project page now expressly identifies new maintenance facilities, and new stabling yard(s) on the Gold Coast.  Doubtful that's $2bn of extra cost though.

https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/rollingstock-expansion-program