Poll: Retain 'cashless' fares for SEQ

[ozbob]

Background:

From Wednesday 25 March 2020 TransLink services in South East Queensland, including school bus services, only accept pre-paid tickets to reduce cash handling.

This means using a go card or pay for a paper ticket at a station fare machine rather than purchasing a ticket or topping up on-board.
Regular TransLink fares and conditions of travel apply on all services.

^ From https://translink.com.au/service-updates/274481

On time running on buses has improved significantly since the introduction of cashless fares ( https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=13380.msg239826#msg239826 ). 

Other factors would be less traffic congestion and less passengers, but cashless fares would be helping to improve OTR.

People are now conditioned to cashless fares, it would be pointless rolling back to the old system in my view.

What do you think?

[Gazza]

YES!

Turns out all the people who have opposed it till now were "putting it on" in terms of it ruining their life /being a major inconvenience.

Melbourne has been 100% cashless for many years now.

Keep rear door boarding too.

[timh]

Yes please. Cashless + rear door boarding should definitely stay.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[Cazza]

Yes, but only with the introduction of contactless payment pretty much network wide.

[SurfRail]

Yes.

No transactions of any kind on board other than contactless or show a pass.  Drivers should not have cash on them.

[Andrew]

You'll be glad to know that these measures are also supported by the RTBU (Rail, Tram and Bus Union) who represent BCC bus drivers. We are in EBA negotiations at the moment.

Bus Driver Safety

A commitment to work with the RTBU on the following going forward: rear/all door loading, no cash handling...

Schrödinger's Bus: Early, on-time and late, simultaneously, until you see it...

[James]

I'm not sure if we should retain the current system specifically. If for some reason you're out of go card credit, there's no other option, and the online top-up system (to my knowledge) is still quite slow to provide funds - up to 24 hours. The result is there are more people riding around on the network for free. Anecdotally, I am seeing more drivers just waive people on who don't have money (unless at a major interchange), whereas before people would pay up.

This is fine now, as we have no tourists from outside Queensland (bar a few from SA), people are avoiding public transport unless the trip is 'essential', and as we are in the midst of a pandemic, a lot more people are inclined to be understanding of the driver not wanting to collect cash fares or if people don't have the money to pay a fare.

Fast forward to a more normal 2021 (or 2022), you will need that option for the occasional user. Perhaps limited cash could be reintroduced - say only have paper ticket sales on board and establish pre-pay zones like in NSW, or have go cards available on board for purchase as the only option.

My requirements to go 'cashless' would be:
1. 'Open' contactless payment (PayWave etc). I don't know anybody wandering around without both a go card and a debit/credit card.
2. Instant top-up for go cards. This should hopefully come with Next Generation Ticketing. You should be able to load money on to your card while waiting for the bus and pay with that same money.
3. A greater rollout of AVVMs, so if someone wants to purchase a go card, it is easy to access and can be done 24/7. Busway stations are ahead of the 8 ball with them already dispensing adult go cards, but there's a number of stations missing AVVMs. It shouldn't be a matter of finding a newsagent who sells them.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I'm not sure if we should retain the current system specifically. If for some reason you're out of go card credit, there's no other option, and the online top-up system (to my knowledge) is still quite slow to provide funds - up to 24 hours. The result is there are more people riding around on the network for free. Anecdotally, I am seeing more drivers just waive people on who don't have money (unless at a major interchange), whereas before people would pay up.

This is fine now, as we have no tourists from outside Queensland (bar a few from SA), people are avoiding public transport unless the trip is 'essential', and as we are in the midst of a pandemic, a lot more people are inclined to be understanding of the driver not wanting to collect cash fares or if people don't have the money to pay a fare.

Fast forward to a more normal 2021 (or 2022), you will need that option for the occasional user. Perhaps limited cash could be reintroduced - say only have paper ticket sales on board and establish pre-pay zones like in NSW, or have go cards available on board for purchase as the only option.

My requirements to go 'cashless' would be:
1. 'Open' contactless payment (PayWave etc). I don't know anybody wandering around without both a go card and a debit/credit card.
2. Instant top-up for go cards. This should hopefully come with Next Generation Ticketing. You should be able to load money on to your card while waiting for the bus and pay with that same money.
3. A greater rollout of AVVMs, so if someone wants to purchase a go card, it is easy to access and can be done 24/7. Busway stations are ahead of the 8 ball with them already dispensing adult go cards, but there's a number of stations missing AVVMs. It shouldn't be a matter of finding a newsagent who sells them.

Another option is to increase the gocard debt limit for bus travel ie allowing to tag on negative. To prevent abuse apply it to registered go cards on bus travel only. Further restrict that to the first tag on only. Maintain the status quo for railway stations or even force a journey break to allow for a top up to continue travel (bus>train transfers ie avms at stations).  In that time it should allow you to find a retailer, station, avm or online top up. Second tag on attempt and you'll get the lack of funds/declined trip. Funds for the negative trip starter can be made up from the cost of purchasing your gocard which is refundable if returned etc etc.

[red dragin]

I'm not sure if we should retain the current system specifically. If for some reason you're out of go card credit, there's no other option, and the online top-up system (to my knowledge) is still quite slow to provide funds - up to 24 hours.

There is an option in there to 'push' your payment to the system, but it still has a wait time, I think it is one hour.

[Gazza]

I think top ups are a bit quicker these days aren't they because buses have 4G?

[SurfRail]

I'm not convinced we need to keep payment on board just for tourists.  Try the "I'm a tourist" line anywhere else in the world where they don't sell cash fares and see where it gets you. 

What is so special about here?

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1311702809876733952

[AnonymouslyBad]

I think cashless is best but I've voted no, on the assumption that what we're talking about is the status quo.

There are too many "gaps" in the existing go card facilities, whether that's availability of cards in the first place, or the delays in topping up, etc.

98% of people have no excuse, but if that other 2% is cut out from the system, public transport has fundamentally failed. (In practice of course, that 2% is just riding for free, which benefits nobody.) Outside of some of the truly obscure milk runs, I don't think the impact on OTR is that significant. All door boarding would be a far higher priority.

Other cashless systems which are both successful and equitably accessible*, either have far more infrastructure, or have already moved to something similar to our next generation ticketing. Next generation ticketing will solve a lot of the issues and at that point I think going cashless is a no-brainer.

_{* no, myki is neither of these things. I'm talking about overseas examples.}

[ozbob]

Smart ticketing is not far away now.  https://translink.com.au/about-translink/projects-and-initiatives/smartticketing

Smart Ticketing will introduce more than 13,500 new devices that will accept credit or debit cards, smartphones and wearables (such as smart watches) in addition to go cards and paper tickets.

Still touting paper tickets.  Even with the present aged system Go Card they have managed cashless.  I think they need to review the Smart Ticketing and remove the paper option onboard.  I don't think the bus drivers in SEQ will want a return to cash fares and I support the retention of cashless fares from a health and safety view point.

[James]

I'm not convinced we need to keep payment on board just for tourists.  Try the "I'm a tourist" line anywhere else in the world where they don't sell cash fares and see where it gets you. 

What is so special about here?

An actual 'world class' city would have AVVMs everywhere in the CBD and at key locations in the suburbs. An actual 'world class' city would make go cards available for purchase at most train stations (preferably all, but I can understand there may be limited interest at Traveston, for example).

Most notably, there's generally nowhere to top up your card using cash at ferry terminals, nor is there anywhere immediately obvious to purchase tickets at Adelaide St Stop 41, despite that being the stop where you board a bus to Lone Pine & Mt Coot-Tha. Cash is still king across much of the world.

Once we resolve these (plus contactless etc), I'd be supportive of cashless fares.

Not to say we can't look at going pre-paid though. There is no reason why we couldn't make major corridors & busways pre-paid and see how we go.

[SurfRail]

^ All they need to do is put go card hoppers in the ticket machines when they get refurbished or replaced, and whack some in at ferry terminals or onboard.  Not that hard.

You can't pay with cash on a bus anywhere in Rome, so why should it matter if you can't do that here?

[verbatim9]

I prefer it to remain cashless. Especially now with the latest announcements from Council to extend the cashless system and Woolies announcing that stores will soon become cashless in some areas. Retaining cash for public transport is against all worldwide trends. Its just a waste of money to retain cash amongst other things.

[James]

^ All they need to do is put go card hoppers in the ticket machines when they get refurbished or replaced, and whack some in at ferry terminals or onboard.  Not that hard.

You can't pay with cash on a bus anywhere in Rome, so why should it matter if you can't do that here?

It's not that hard, but it is still another step which needs to happen.

Having been to Rome and seen the rampant fare evasion on public transport there first hand, I don't think this a model to emulate. People just get on and get off without a care in the world, it would make the bus routes in the worst fare-evading suburbs here look 'world class'...

[SurfRail]

^ So?

Drivers are there to drive the bus, not issue tickets.  It should not be any of their concern.

[AnonymouslyBad]

^ Absolutely agree, which means the tickets need to be accessible!

It's not as simple as adding go card sales to the older AVVMs and putting in "a few" more machines. There need to be literally hundreds more, or a partnership with a very big retailer (i.e. Woolworths/Coles).

There are swathes of suburbia where you can't top up a go card locally, much less buy one.
Even at "destinations" it can be unclear if or where go cards are available. I'm looking at you, Gold Coast Airport. (The newsagent at GC Airport sells them, but a) that place is a tourist's worst nightmare, and b) it's not immediately obvious that's where you need to go.) The logical expectation, for anyone coming from a real city, is that the foyer or the bus stops will have ticket machines. But they don't.
That's just one example, but it's a perfect microcosm of the overall problem. The deficiencies are everywhere once you leave the rail/busway spines. TL would have to be well aware of this, hence bus operators (except BCC of course ) being forced to process top ups on board. It's a chicken and egg problem.

tl;dr: Cashless is great once go card facilities are ubiquitous, but they're nowhere near. Try 2x the ticket machines, or much more clever placement than currently. In well functioning cashless systems, ticketing is just... everywhere. It's easy to not notice or give much thought because there's no real need to.

It's all a bit moot once the new generation ticket readers accept debit cards, though at this stage I don't believe the trial ones do?, which is.. worrying if true. It's not difficult.

[SurfRail]

In 2 years time it won't matter at all, as there will be universal open payment on the entire network (including the regions).  The number of people who wouldn't have a functioning credit card, some of form of chip card or other contactless device such as a smartphone would be too small to bother with putting in actual machines anywhere off the system itself, and it would be declining all the time.  We also have things like the TransLink Access Pass to fill in gaps.

I've been to many, many "real" cities on several continents where it can be a challenge to find the local smartcard, or it does not exist and you need to find an open newsagent, or tabaccheria, or bodega, or whatever to buy a magnetic or cardboard ticket.  We aren't unique.  It's 2 years or so of very, very mild inconvenience and then the problem vanishes for good.