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Author Topic: Identifying and suggesting fixes for botched SEQ rail projects  (Read 2187 times)

Online ozbob

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The state has also shown how they are willing to  f**** up infrastructure so they ccan look like they are spending on infrastructure. Crr is full of flaws. Kippa ring had cost cutting to the max applied to it (including removing active transport along the corridor). Springfield extension was the same as Kippa ring with its active transport connections removed. Lawnton to Petrie was a cluster f****. Ngr donít get anyone started on. Petrie had NWTC provisions removed. Other projects have been delayed. Busways are flawed blackholes.

Interesting post HTG.  Confirms what many understand. 

Lets flesh out the problems in more detail ...

Lets look at Darra and Darra West.  Botched track layout and station design for Darra.  There was no need for the UP SUB loop.  Darra should have been two island platforms with RAISED FULL HEIGHT PLATFORMS.  Quad track down to Darra West, the Springfield branch simply branching from the subs and up over Warrender street.  There would have been considerable cost savings and residences along Warrender St would have a lot less noise issues.

Of course the failure to spark the UP SUB from Corinda to Pannard (Darra east) and not build the extra platform at Oxley (plans were drawn up btw) is in the ' LEGENDARY FAIL ' class ..

This State, TMR and the useless Governments and Ministerial clowns complete with an army of incompetent staffers and media advisers should hang their collective heads in shame .. 

Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
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Online ozbob

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Re: Identifying and suggesting fixes for botched SEQ rail projects
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2019, 05:04:26 AM »
^  Fix, making the best of the botch.

Electrify the UP Sub, fix the track layout at Corinda, build the platform on the UP Sub at Oxley.  Raise the platforms at Darra.
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Online ozbob

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Re: Identifying and suggesting fixes for botched SEQ rail projects
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2019, 05:12:06 AM »
Indooroopilly railway station!   :fp:

Who wants to tackle this abomination ..   :hc
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Offline timh

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Re: Identifying and suggesting fixes for botched SEQ rail projects
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2019, 07:24:01 AM »
How about Quadruplication to Kuraby instead of triplication? Realistically it should be quad track with some curve straightening all the way to Beenleigh...

Online HappyTrainGuy

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Re: Identifying and suggesting fixes for botched SEQ rail projects
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2019, 08:12:49 AM »
In the past some works were pretty much pointless - ie station upgrades not being fully funded and we ended up the upgrades we now have. Here have some money thatís not enough but you have to use it in x amount of stations.

Offline SurfRail

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Re: Identifying and suggesting fixes for botched SEQ rail projects
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2019, 08:59:11 AM »
Eagle Junction station is my vote for most useless upgrade of all time.

- Build new station building with fare gates - check
- Don't remove the original ramp behind the building that lets people bypass the fare gates - check
- Don't put fare gates on the other side - check
- Don't raise the platforms - check
- Take station staff off the platform where people might actually need assistance - check
- $20m+ - check

Melbourne, Sydney and Perth are all much better at station layouts than we are.  Proper gatelines, putting the gates somewhere that actually controls access to the platform without blocking pedestrian access over the corridor, fixing platform curvature or minimising it when stations are upgrades.  We are hopeless at it.
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Online ozbob

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Re: Identifying and suggesting fixes for botched SEQ rail projects
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2019, 12:09:54 PM »
Beerburrum and Elimbah stations.  Waste of money to install lifts, they fail and it takes many hours to get support.  A couple of elderly ladies were trapped for some time a while back.

These stations should have had compliant ramps and a subway, similar to Cardinia Road station in Melbourne, a much busier station than the before mentioned, no lifts fully compliant.  Topography for all three stations similar. 

No real  affordable fix now that they have built, would have been very easy during the initial construction. Stuck with the dodgy lifts ...
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Identifying and suggesting fixes for botched SEQ rail projects
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2019, 01:18:03 PM »
Does QR have a basic station design and renovation standard?
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
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Offline SurfRail

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Re: Identifying and suggesting fixes for botched SEQ rail projects
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2019, 01:22:32 PM »
For new builds certainly.  Station upgrades dating back to the mid 2000s featured no or only limited platform raising which has continued although allegedly that is meant to be stopped (again after it was promised following South Brisbane).

Even station upgrades yet to be substantially commenced like Dakabin are still intended to only include partial platform raising, even where they are ruler straight, so not a lot of concern being paid to level access.

The signage suite is 100% TransLink specified.
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Offline Gazza

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Re: Identifying and suggesting fixes for botched SEQ rail projects
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2019, 03:34:44 PM »
Quote
Kippa ring had cost cutting to the max applied to it (including removing active transport along the corridor)
There's a cycleway along the whole length actually

https://www.google.com/maps/@-27.2228641,153.049306,90m/data=!3m1!1e3

Offline aldonius

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Re: Identifying and suggesting fixes for botched SEQ rail projects
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2019, 05:54:42 PM »
Indooroopilly railway station!   :fp:

Who wants to tackle this abomination ..   :hc

Is there anything not wrong with Indro?

- tracks run up-down-up-down instead of up-up-down-down
- even if they did run UUDD the narrower platform is the one going towards the city and so probably has to handle more people (I could be wrong here, maybe the departure crowds should take priority
- platforms are curved about 1 in 10, which I imagine is enough to prevent high-level raising.
- Clarence Rd bus stops are at least 160m away
- shopping centre is 400m away up a hill and across a busy road

Potential solutions:

- Track order largely is what it is; Darra's and Milton's needs determine the rest of the line. Real time PIDs at station entrances also largely solve the can't-wait-in-two-locations problem provided trains show up on the correct platform.
- Fixing the curve likely means either relocating the station to under Belgrave Rd, or else rebuilding three bridges.
- It might be possible to put the Clarence Rd bus stops on Westminster Rd instead?
- Long term I see a role for a MetroBusway tunnel from UQ Lakes to Chapel Hill, with stations on the east side of the rail and the western edge of the shopping centre.

Offline Fares_Fair

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Re: Identifying and suggesting fixes for botched SEQ rail projects
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2019, 06:10:16 PM »
#2tracks to #SunshineCoast.
Corridor width allows for 4 tracks.
Imagine how good it would be for freight if the shortest passing loop between Brisbane and Cairns was removed.
Imagine the potential removal of 100 semi-trailers off the highway for every 1500m freight train.
Regards,
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Online HappyTrainGuy

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Re: Identifying and suggesting fixes for botched SEQ rail projects
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2019, 06:12:41 PM »
Quote
Kippa ring had cost cutting to the max applied to it (including removing active transport along the corridor)
There's a cycleway along the whole length actually

https://www.google.com/maps/@-27.2228641,153.049306,90m/data=!3m1!1e3

From what iíve been told the entire length to was to have priority and somewhat at grade as the track (similar to Richlands railway station) including over road bridges. Now there are random detours where bridges werenít built/widened, multiple road crossings and pedestrian/motor vehicle conflicts as a result. Check out Kallangur for the detour and mango hill stations for the station grounds detours/bikeway through the main exit.

Offline SurfRail

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Re: Identifying and suggesting fixes for botched SEQ rail projects
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2019, 10:40:11 PM »
Indooroopilly railway station!   :fp:

Who wants to tackle this abomination ..   :hc

Is there anything not wrong with Indro?

- tracks run up-down-up-down instead of up-up-down-down
- even if they did run UUDD the narrower platform is the one going towards the city and so probably has to handle more people (I could be wrong here, maybe the departure crowds should take priority
- platforms are curved about 1 in 10, which I imagine is enough to prevent high-level raising.
- Clarence Rd bus stops are at least 160m away
- shopping centre is 400m away up a hill and across a busy road

Potential solutions:

- Track order largely is what it is; Darra's and Milton's needs determine the rest of the line. Real time PIDs at station entrances also largely solve the can't-wait-in-two-locations problem provided trains show up on the correct platform.
- Fixing the curve likely means either relocating the station to under Belgrave Rd, or else rebuilding three bridges.
- It might be possible to put the Clarence Rd bus stops on Westminster Rd instead?
- Long term I see a role for a MetroBusway tunnel from UQ Lakes to Chapel Hill, with stations on the east side of the rail and the western edge of the shopping centre.

My thinking previously was:
- remove the crossovers south of the station, slew the tracks and reposition the platforms to remove the curvature (or enough to raise)
- build a proper bus interchange over the top accessible from Coonan and Westminster with access to the platforms at both ends
- realign the bus routes so everything serves both the shopping centre and the railway (with most routes from the west terminating at the station or continuing to UQ), including building a much improved Stop E opposite the shopping centre to serve all outbound routes
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Online ozbob

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Re: Identifying and suggesting fixes for botched SEQ rail projects
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2019, 05:31:05 AM »
Indooroopilly railway station!   :fp:

Who wants to tackle this abomination ..   :hc

Is there anything not wrong with Indro?

- tracks run up-down-up-down instead of up-up-down-down
- even if they did run UUDD the narrower platform is the one going towards the city and so probably has to handle more people (I could be wrong here, maybe the departure crowds should take priority
- platforms are curved about 1 in 10, which I imagine is enough to prevent high-level raising.
- Clarence Rd bus stops are at least 160m away
- shopping centre is 400m away up a hill and across a busy road

Potential solutions:

- Track order largely is what it is; Darra's and Milton's needs determine the rest of the line. Real time PIDs at station entrances also largely solve the can't-wait-in-two-locations problem provided trains show up on the correct platform.
- Fixing the curve likely means either relocating the station to under Belgrave Rd, or else rebuilding three bridges.
- It might be possible to put the Clarence Rd bus stops on Westminster Rd instead?
- Long term I see a role for a MetroBusway tunnel from UQ Lakes to Chapel Hill, with stations on the east side of the rail and the western edge of the shopping centre.

My thinking previously was:
- remove the crossovers south of the station, slew the tracks and reposition the platforms to remove the curvature (or enough to raise)
- build a proper bus interchange over the top accessible from Coonan and Westminster with access to the platforms at both ends
- realign the bus routes so everything serves both the shopping centre and the railway (with most routes from the west terminating at the station or continuing to UQ), including building a much improved Stop E opposite the shopping centre to serve all outbound routes

There are cluster-fuks, and then there is Indooroopilly railway station!   :fp:
.
Agree, Indooroopilly needs another complete rebuild ... we did point out in 2007 or thereabouts that they needed to incorporate a bus interchange  preferably on-top of the station - I remember even going to a workshop.  Lots of collective nods around the assembled throng ...

What happened subsequently was that any feedback was ignored and the rather bizarre and inadequate station that we now have was manifested and forced onto the masses.  Indooroopilly station is a busy station, we need to do better!

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Online ozbob

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Re: Identifying and suggesting fixes for botched SEQ rail projects
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2019, 05:39:08 AM »
HTG, could you please elaborate on what is wrong with Lawnton <> Petrie please?

I am suspecting some significant issues considering the worst OTR is on RPL and Caboolture lines ...

Is the layout of Petrie optimal?
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Online HappyTrainGuy

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Re: Identifying and suggesting fixes for botched SEQ rail projects
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2019, 11:27:00 AM »
Most problems have been addressed but I think thereís still equipment location problems for a quad on the east ie removing and reinstalling a lot of what they just installed. Petrie station mods were part of the L2P project. The spur connection was MBRL. Just another hurdle to a quad/NWTC provisions in the area thanks to Newman cost savings.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2019, 08:35:50 PM by HappyTrainGuy »

Online ozbob

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Re: Identifying and suggesting fixes for botched SEQ rail projects
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2019, 05:00:50 AM »
Sent to all outlets:

4th September 2019

Queensland - the stalled state ..

Good Morning,

What hope is there really for regional fast rail, or the necessary infrastructure for the proposed 2032 Olympics when this state cannot deliver even basic transport infrastructure in a timely manner and without botching it?

Upgrade of Sunshine Coast railway line -  stalled since 2009.

Gold Coast light rail stage 3A - stalled.

Brisbane ' Metro ' - stalled.

Bus network reform - stalled.

Level crossing removal - stalled.

New Generation Rollingstock - complete DDA non-compliance botch.  Still waiting for the rectification of the non-compliant trains to commence.

Redcliffe Peninsula line - botched signalling.  This line despite being the newest line on the Citytrain network has the worst on-time running profile of all the lines.

Station accessibility upgrades botched - a number still only being given partial platform raising.

Inland rail to the Port of Brisbane - stalled.

Cross River Rail - no public rail service plan, doubts about whether the present train fleet is sufficient to deliver the services required post 2024.  Poor design.

The Queensland Government is kidding itself. Enjoy the trip to Switzerland Premier!

Best wishes,

Robert

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Offline Arnz

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Re: Identifying and suggesting fixes for botched SEQ rail projects
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2019, 09:47:59 AM »
It can also be argued that the CAMCOS spur to Caloundra only (with stations at Aura, Pelican Waters and Caloundra) can be built without CRR, BUT still requires Beerburrum to Beerwah/Landsborough duplication.   

In that scenario, it's a simple extension and re-route of all existing Caboolture and Nambour trains to Caloundra.  Nambour and Gympie North trains would be converted to Beerwah shuttles/terminators (including peak), thus it doesn't take up any extra slots into the City, whilst it can also improve Gympie North frequencies as well with a 2-hourly service from Gympie North to Beerwah, as well as a straight 15-30 min shuttle between Beerwah and Nambour during peak times.

The Caboolture East stabling yard can be demolished and resold as a TOD.   Elimbah and the Caboolture Western stabling can stable the "Caboolture short runners" during peak.

The Caboolture western stabling yard would be kept as a "future proof" measure for the Wamuran branch.
Rgds,
Arnz

Unless stated otherwise, Opinions stated in my posts are those of my own view only.

Online HappyTrainGuy

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Re: Identifying and suggesting fixes for botched SEQ rail projects
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2019, 09:51:27 PM »
It can also be argued that the CAMCOS spur to Caloundra only (with stations at Aura, Pelican Waters and Caloundra) can be built without CRR, BUT still requires Beerburrum to Beerwah/Landsborough duplication.   

In that scenario, it's a simple extension and re-route of all existing Caboolture and Nambour trains to Caloundra.  Nambour and Gympie North trains would be converted to Beerwah shuttles/terminators (including peak), thus it doesn't take up any extra slots into the City, whilst it can also improve Gympie North frequencies as well with a 2-hourly service from Gympie North to Beerwah, as well as a straight 15-30 min shuttle between Beerwah and Nambour during peak times.

The Caboolture East stabling yard can be demolished and resold as a TOD.   Elimbah and the Caboolture Western stabling can stable the "Caboolture short runners" during peak.

The Caboolture western stabling yard would be kept as a "future proof" measure for the Wamuran branch.

Wamuran is dead in the water. Its never going to be brought back to a railway line. WHOS has ruled that out. Caboolture east and west yards are always going to remain. The station is a staff terminus location for crews.

Apparently the push for 9 car trains is on post CRR with the gold coast infill stations - which is all subject to funding and can be shot down in an absolute instant should the government need cash of cost cutting. Station upgrades are quite straight forward with Loganlea being extended during DAA upgrades, Beenleigh extension to the south/moving the turn around south. NGR are already configured to run as 9 car trains by adding an additional 3 cars to existing rollingstock to the middle. The frequency would remain the same with infill capacity being taken up by longer trains. To speed up times its possible to remove Altandi from the pattern.

Haven't heard much about the northside as its an infrastructure basket case with each project locking you into another major more expensive project (NWTC, Strathpine-Petrie quad, Petrie-Caboolture triple, Beerburrum-Landsborough duplication/realignment, CAMCOS, infill stations etc) but Petrie and Caboolture can already accept 9 car trains and Petrie also has some provisions for longer trains. The only way I see 9 car NGRs running Caboolture-Gold Coast via CRR is to half ass it with temp platform extensions Morayfield-Dakabin running at the same 30 minute off peak frequency. Nambour trains would be extended Ipswich-Bowen Hills terminators. Extend the 9 car via CRR NGR's to Landsborough and then to Caloundra under CAMCOS. That way you avoid Caboolture-Petrie quad/Caboolture-Petrie infill stations/Petrie-Strathpine quad/NWTC projects and multiple running patterns. Down the line you can then start to justify infill stations and other projects to increase frequency.

Offline timh

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Re: Identifying and suggesting fixes for botched SEQ rail projects
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2019, 10:09:14 PM »
It can also be argued that the CAMCOS spur to Caloundra only (with stations at Aura, Pelican Waters and Caloundra) can be built without CRR, BUT still requires Beerburrum to Beerwah/Landsborough duplication.   

In that scenario, it's a simple extension and re-route of all existing Caboolture and Nambour trains to Caloundra.  Nambour and Gympie North trains would be converted to Beerwah shuttles/terminators (including peak), thus it doesn't take up any extra slots into the City, whilst it can also improve Gympie North frequencies as well with a 2-hourly service from Gympie North to Beerwah, as well as a straight 15-30 min shuttle between Beerwah and Nambour during peak times.

The Caboolture East stabling yard can be demolished and resold as a TOD.   Elimbah and the Caboolture Western stabling can stable the "Caboolture short runners" during peak.

The Caboolture western stabling yard would be kept as a "future proof" measure for the Wamuran branch.

Wamuran is dead in the water. Its never going to be brought back to a railway line. WHOS has ruled that out. Caboolture east and west yards are always going to remain. The station is a staff terminus location for crews.


Honestly i think Wamuran is a missed opportunity. There's SOOO much development going on in Caboolture West and all the way out to Wamuran itself, and you've already got a preserved rail corridor ready to go. Creating the junction at Caboolture itself would be an absolute f**** around, but otherwise, NOT utilising the corridor for a future rail extension (long term, 20 years i reckon) seems stupid. Just change all Caboolture terminators to Wamuran terminators, which then either shuttlerun/run dead back to stabling at Caboolture/Elimbah when done (or add some stabling at Wamuran)

Offline SurfRail

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Re: Identifying and suggesting fixes for botched SEQ rail projects
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2019, 10:15:58 AM »
I'm not sure why every station between Nambour and Petrie (including the Kippa-Ring branch) can't accept 9 car trains.  The only problematic one looks to be Kippa-Ring itself given where the access to the yard is.  Likewise every station south of Loganlea inclusive can be readily extended, just that Beenleigh is complicated and might need consideration of what happens to the yard (maybe expand it and make access bi-directional so it can feed the Gold Coast too).

The 2036 peak hour service plan in the CRR business case appears to indicate Kippa-Ring will be feeding both Ipswich and Ripley.  It also indicated there would only be 2 trains originating at Caboolture per hour with 10 coming from either Nambour or Caloundra, which I think must be utterly wrong, so take with a grain of salt.
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Online HappyTrainGuy

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Re: Identifying and suggesting fixes for botched SEQ rail projects
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2019, 10:31:17 AM »
Cost being one factor. To build them you have to justify why and lock in future infrastructure projects which they donít like doing.

Offline Gazza

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Re: Identifying and suggesting fixes for botched SEQ rail projects
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2019, 12:10:14 PM »
Nah Fk Wamuran.

You've got the western bit of Caboolture that hugs the corridor, that would be serviced by feeder buses anyway that have to go to the middle of Caboolture for shops and services anyway.

You then have a couple of isoated housing estates, and if you built stations there it would be about as popular as Edens Landing.


So in the end its just a shitty 2-3 station branch with much lower frequency than Caboolture itself.

Try and change my mind.

Offline kram0

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Re: Identifying and suggesting fixes for botched SEQ rail projects
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2019, 02:56:10 PM »
When they built 3 tracks to Kuraby, did they allow for a future 4th track and if so from where?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 05:41:22 PM by kram0 »

Offline SurfRail

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Re: Identifying and suggesting fixes for botched SEQ rail projects
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2019, 04:13:32 PM »
You can put 4 tracks in all the way from Yeerongpilly to Kuraby without many worries, you'd just have to lose car parks (shock horror) and a few bridges would need working on (eg around the St Laurence's playing fields at Runcorn).
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Offline James

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Re: Identifying and suggesting fixes for botched SEQ rail projects
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2019, 09:29:14 PM »
Nah Fk Wamuran.

You've got the western bit of Caboolture that hugs the corridor, that would be serviced by feeder buses anyway that have to go to the middle of Caboolture for shops and services anyway.

You then have a couple of isoated housing estates, and if you built stations there it would be about as popular as Edens Landing.


So in the end its just a shitty 2-3 station branch with much lower frequency than Caboolture itself.

Try and change my mind.

I think you're being generous. The patronage you'd get at Wamuran would make Bindha look busy.

West of Caboolture, all you have is a 5x daily service (the 895) which seems to primarily serve school kids and locals heading to shops, hospitals and so forth. 2-3 services between 8-9am and then 2-3 services between 2:30-3:30pm. No commuter patronage whatsoever with that timetable, no integration with TransLink services, nothing.

Even if construction is "low hanging fruit" (which with modern design standards, it is not), it is still money better spent on service upgrades & other inexpensive rail upgrades. Try putting an hourly TransLink bus service out there first.
Is it really that hard to run frequent, reliable public transport?

Offline timh

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Re: Identifying and suggesting fixes for botched SEQ rail projects
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2019, 08:16:50 AM »
For the record, as I said above, I don't expect rail to Wamuram to be considered for construction til 20-30 years down the track. Point I was making was just that it shouldn't be neglected as a long term option. The corridor should be preserved and long term planning considered.

I know there's bugger all west of Caboolture at the moment but looking at the maps of the proposed development/subdivisions, I expect there will be a lot more through there in the future

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