Target 400 - a campaign to get 400 million passenger trips on SEQ PT by 2032

[#Metro]

Has nothing to do with that. Train crews are quite flexiable once the entire network is taken into account ie double the frequency doesn't mean double the crew numbers.

Disagree. It makes sense that two crew on ~ $100K is more expensive than one crew on ~ $100K.

Why does QR let trains sit in yards during the off-peak when it has more than enough trains from the peak times to run additional services?

Labour costs.

It's All About Labor

Driver labor, and related time-based costs, are the dominant element – often 70% or more — of transit operating budgets in the developed world.  The only exception is a fully automated driverless service, such as Vancouver's SkyTrain.

Basics: Operating Cost
https://humantransit.org/2011/07/02box.html

Frequency and Freedom on Driverless Rapid Transit
https://humantransit.org/2010/02/driverless-rapid-transit-why-it-matters.html

The lack of a driver is the key to those extreme frequencies.  When you have a driver on every vehicle, the labor cost is the dominant cost of operations.  So when you have to cut service, as many North American agencies are doing this year, you end up cutting frequencies, starting with late night and weekend.  Many North American light rail systems are dropping below even a 15-minute frequency in the evening, making themselves increasingly useless for the spontaneous trips that are essential to freedom in urban life.

[achiruel]

And as I'm sure you know very well, converting the QR network to driverless is basically impossible, and even converting to DOO will cost many billions and take several years. We can't wait for that to happen to improve frequency. Sydney Trains have guards and they manage to run trains every 7.5 minutes on weekends between Lindfield and the city, and 15-minute frequencies on other lines.

[#Metro]

And as I'm sure you know very well, converting the QR network to driverless is basically impossible, and even converting to DOO will cost many billions and take several years. We can't wait for that to happen to improve frequency. Sydney Trains have guards and they manage to run trains every 7.5 minutes on weekends between Lindfield and the city, and 15-minute frequencies on other lines.

Yes, and Sydney just replaced a Sydney Trains line (Chatswood - Epping) that ran with 2 guards with a driverless metro operated by MTR Corporation; They have plans to convert the Sydney Trains line to Bankstown to driverless metro, so your example does not follow.

NSW is already doing it.

Queensland Rail has 150 years to phase out guards... Melbourne did it in the 1990s. QR needs to start looking at selected lines e.g.

- Springfield - Darra
- Gold Coast Line
- Kippa Ring
- Airport

for partial DOO conversion. Yes it would require signalling changes, but they need to do that anyway for safety reasons.

[SurfRail]

^ His argument absolutely follows.  The sections of lines being converted are completely grade separated, have high level platforms and no interaction with freight.  That is not true of anywhere in Queensland.  Driverless is a fantasy for the foreseeable future, but DOO isn't.  Both will require a lot of money to be spent, money that is probably better economically directed to improving levels of service for the time being than retrofitting the network to the very, very high standard needed for unattended operation.

[#Metro]

^ His argument absolutely follows.  The sections of lines being converted are completely grade-separated, have high-level platforms and no interaction with freight.  That is not true of anywhere in Queensland.  Driverless is a fantasy for the foreseeable future, but DOO isn't.  Both will require a lot of money to be spent, money that is probably better economically directed to improving levels of service for the time being than retrofitting the network to the very, very high standard needed for unattended operation.

Vic is going through and removing their level crossings across the city. We are not.

NSW is going through and replacing lines with driverless metro. We are not.
(It is worth remembering that this also involved constructing entirely new stations, one would think reconstruction of an existing station would be of comparable difficulty).

In both these cases quite a lot of money had to be spent, but it was worth it (Melbourne removed crossings and rebuilt stations, NSW shut down a line, replaced it with shuttle buses for ~9 months, and built new stations and tunnels).

Of course our system has differences, but the solution did not land on a silver platter for VIC or NSW and neither it will for us.

Many of the stations have to be reconstructed to meet modern DDA requirements in any case.

We should look at where it is possible to phase DOO in on the network. Could be specific lines.

A political party with smarts would look at a specific line and run with a program and do that entire section. Are the other parties up to it? :conf

If you are putting more staff into PT, you wouldn't prioritise train guards
https://www.danielbowen.com/2013/02/04/train-guards/

The removal of guards meant that the cost of adding additional train services fell markedly, particularly on weekends when penalty rates apply.

Sunday services have seen the biggest improvement: prior to 1996 all lines ran only every 40 minutes.

One of the largest financial costs involved with the operation of railways is staffing, and thus it is not rocket science that having two members of staff on board a train increases the running costs per train service. If the funding spent of guards could be re-used for more drivers to be utilised on 15 minute off-peak services, and more visible security staff, then we may have an increasingly safe, frequent, and efficient train network.

Before stuck in their ways Queenslanders say "we can't do that", it should be noted driver only operation is in use with curved platforms, platform/door gaps, platform view obstructions, sun, rain, snow, and hail.

Do we really still need guards on trains?
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2011/05/do-we-really-still-need-guards-on.html

[ozbob]

DOO  will not happen anytime soon.  ATP  must be in place first.  There are no plans at this stage to ATP most of the Citytrain network, other than Milton to Northgate with the ATP for CRR.

[SurfRail]

^ Exactly.  Morevoer you need to have substantially improved platform heights throughout the entire network. 

Sydney has level boarding along the entirety of the Metro and the converted bits will have it too.  The driverless parts are 100% segregated from the rest of the rail network and there is no move towards phasing out guards on the remaining legacy lines any time soon.

Melbourne also has a network that supports DOO because the designated PWD boarding points are at the front of the train and fewer of their platforms have the poor geometry (vertical and horizontal) that ours do.  The driver can assist as needed in Melbourne.  Our stations have it in the middle, which at some stations will be unattended even by train crew once all trains are worked from the front and back only.

This all needs to be fixed, but it isn't an impediment to more services running now.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Why does QR let trains sit in yards during the off-peak when it has more than enough trains from the peak times to run additional services?

They aren't in operation because they aren't scheduled to be in operation. Translink sets the schedule and pays for services. If they aren't required to be running why have them running? If you want to win that particular argument you need something better to say as that same wording can apply to the TradeCoast and Virginia depots. Why are they packed with buses off peak yet many northsiders have to put up with hourly buses (2 hourly for my local bus on the weekend) zigzagging around the neighbourhoods.

[#Metro]

More services can be scheduled for the same budget when the cost to add an additional service falls.

[HappyTrainGuy]

There's also called efficiently. Something of which bcc is p%ssing away with its network of over duplication, poor network design and poor route hours. And yet we have metro being bolstered as the solution to fix the outer suburbs pt issues which is f%cking bullsh%t!

And thus the vicious circle of not enough buses and active transport meeting the warrant of more trains continues. No one catches feeders so no one catches trains. No one catches trains so no need to boost frequency. I could ride to the station but there are no secure facilities. I could walk from the station but there are no street lighting.

If you are struggling to fill seats on a Kippa Ring-City train in morning peak hour what makes you think boosting the off peak frequency will dramatically increase the patronage. The services thathave buses meeting them (which are also the thru services) are always at standing capacity before Zillmere/Carseldine.

My god I miss the planned network for the Northside in 2012. It addressed so much of what was fu%ked with the Northside network but all we ended up getting was a inbound 335 stopping at the Taigum interchange instead of using the bus shelter outside of it (no timetable adjustments which was interesting).

[SurfRail]

More services can be scheduled for the same budget when the cost to add an additional service falls.

Yes, but what is the capital outlay to get the network to the point where even DOO is possible, let alone unattended operation?

I don't accept that is a precursor to running services more frequently than we already do. 

Adding twice as many off peak services would not double the cost of even the off-peak service bill.  I strongly suspect most of the fixed costs of operating the network outweigh crew and maintenance wages as a line item expense, if anybody could shed light on that feel free. 

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

18th August 2019

Queensland Rail Citytrain - poor pax performance for a long time ...

Good Morning,

Not convinced that Queensland Rail Citytrain should be moving more passengers?

Well consider this data series.



It can be noted that heavy rail patronage is not that much better than what it was in 1990! Since 1990 there have been the construction of new lines, Helensvale 1996, Nerang 1997, Robina in 1998 and Varsity Lakes 2009. Airport line in 2001, Rosewood line electrified in 1993 and Doomben line resumed passenger services in 1998 (suspended in 1993). Richlands 2011, Springfield Central 2013 and Kippa-Ring 2016. Interesting data this from the Bureau of Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Economics (BITRE). Under performance of our heavy rail has been in place for a long time. It can be improved from here most certainly.  The increase in bus patronage from ~ 2004 was due to the opening of the busways and the introduction of frequent bus (BUZ) services.  Citytrain needs to step up in a like manner.



The data is from TransLink and TMR Annual reports.  Stagnation! Population increase in SEQ was around +15.5% over this period.

Time to get moving on #Target400 !

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Attached: https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=13648.msg225930#msg225930
& https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=13648.msg225964#msg225964

As part of our Target 400 campaign ( https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=13648.0 ) we propose that Queensland Rail Citytrain network (urban and interurban) achieve an annual patronage of around 130 million trips/year by 2029.  Is this achievable? We think it is.

The Citytrain network is a poor pax performer.  We all know the reasons for the poor performance, rail service frequency poor, particularly counter-peak and out of peak. Poor support of rail in terms of feeder buses.  Constant problems with connections as we have low frequency rail connecting with low frequency bus - bus/rail, rail/bus and rail/rail connections are often missed leading to very long journey times.

The rail service level is not satisfactory for the level of financial investment made by all Queenslanders.

The most comparable suburban rail network in Australia to the our SEQ rail network is Transperth WA. The Transperth network present has a total route length of 181 km, 72 stations, same gauge as Citytrain and in fact some of the trains are the same as the Queensland Rail 260 SMU trains. In 2017/18 Transperth trains achieved 60.6 million trips ( https://www.pta.wa.gov.au/about-us/priorities-and-performance/transport-performance#Train-33 ). Compare this to our Citytrain network.  Route length 689 km, 152 stations, and in 2017/18 had 52.42 million trips ( https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=13554.msg223274#msg223274).

The Transperth rail network is 26% the size of the Citytrain network yet carries more passengers! 

Clearly there is a lot of latent capacity on the Citytrain network and it needs to be tapped into.  A target of 130 million trips by 2029 is very achievable, providing there are service improvements, and there is much better support to get passengers to and from rail stations by feeder bus and active transport. Park 'n' ride is a limited non-sustainable patronage driver, and once full, potential passengers are forced drive. 

Two fundamental reasons why the Transperth trains carries the number of passengers it does is:

1. Service frequency ( all lines out of peak service frequency generally every 15 minutes, better at peak), and

2. It is well supported by feeder bus networks.  Essentially the opposite of what occurs on the SEQ Citytrain network, so no surprise Citytrain patronage is so relatively poor is it?

How are we going to kick-start significant patronage growth?

1.  Service improvement, and

2.  Better feeder bus support, together with enhanced active transport facilities.  We will discuss in more depth feeder bus network and active transport improvements in follow on articles.  We will discuss rail service improvement priorities in this article.

We propose that the Citytrain network should incrementally improve to these service levels 7 days a week, out of peak, with counter-peak service improvements. Present peak service level is generally satisfactory exception Doomben line.

- Caboolture and Sunshine Coast - every 30 minutes to Caboolture current express pattern, every second train to Nambour, at least five shuttles per day between Gympie North and Nambour

- Kippa-Ring - every 15 minutes current express pattern

- Shorncliffe - every 15 minutes all stations (and if there an issue with the single track to Shorncliffe you could turn back every second train at Sandgate)

- Airport - every 15 minutes all stations

- Doomben - every 30 minutes all stations ( through to at least 11pm, 7 days a week )

- Ferny Grove - every 15 minutes all stations

- Ipswich - every 30 minutes current peak hour express pattern, every second train to Rosewood or get the shuttle working properly

- Springfield Central - every 15 minutes all stations

- Beenleigh - every 15 minutes all stations to Kuraby, every second train to Beenleigh

- Gold Coast - every 30 minutes

- Cleveland - every 15 minutes all stations to Manly, every second train to Cleveland

These service improvements should be in place by 2024, so that the transition to a post CRR Citytrain network is seamless.

The first priority should be service improvements on the Sunshine Coast Line, and the introduction of rail shuttle services between Nambour and Gympie North. Followed by Doomben line service improvements as detailed, then step up the service frequency between Kippa-Ring and Springfield Central, Cleveland and Beenleigh lines.  Introduce the around clock express pattern on the Ipswich line when 15 minute frequency is achieved between Kippa-Ring and Springfield Central.

Note these service improvements are NOT dependent on billions of dollars of infrastructure.  It is simply using our existing rail network and train fleet in a much better manner. As more train crew come on line, Queensland Rail should start a rolling program of service improvements as suggested. As service frequency increases, connections become less problematical. Patronage will start sustained significant growth.

[ozbob]

More services can be scheduled for the same budget when the cost to add an additional service falls.

Yes, but what is the capital outlay to get the network to the point where even DOO is possible, let alone unattended operation?

I don't accept that is a precursor to running services more frequently than we already do. 

Adding twice as many off peak services would not double the cost of even the off-peak service bill.  I strongly suspect most of the fixed costs of operating the network outweigh crew and maintenance wages as a line item expense, if anybody could shed light on that feel free.

Yo.  Forget DOO and automation for now.  The present campaign is to increase services as outlined above.

DOO will not happen until the entire Citytrain network has ATP, and then legacy issues with old stations sorted. 
Automation will not occur until a true underground metro is built in Brisbane.

QR's costs per passenger are absurdly high, the only way to get it down realistically is to carry more passengers.   
If they don't they are a sitting duck for privatisation under a LNP Government.

[ozbob]

Queensland Times 26th August 2019 page 7

' Battle to keep city moving '

[#Metro]

QR's costs per passenger are absurdly high, the only way to get it down realistically is to carry more passengers.   
If they don't they are a sitting duck for privatisation under a LNP Government.

I believe it is around $10 per passenger trip (ballpark). It is one of the most expensive in the world for a city > 1 million.

Perth has it around $5 per passenger trip, comparable to Sydney which is about ~ $6 per trip from Sydney Trains most recent annual report.

Rail Patronage Management - effectiveness in practice, and new theoretical frames
Hale & Charles
http://backontrack.org/docs/wctr10.pdf

I strongly suspect most of the fixed costs of operating the network outweigh crew and maintenance wages as a line item expense, if anybody could shed light on that feel free.

By definition, fixed costs are fixed, whether you operate 1 train or 100. Thus, they are not a deciding factor when considering adding an additional train to the schedule. In contrast, variable costs, e.g. labour, increases in step with the number of services, and as such, would be a strong factor in the decision to add more services.

To use a car example, you might buy a car for $20,000 and pay hundreds of dollars in annual registration fees, insurances, cleaning, and regular maintenance. But what might influence your trip at a particular time of day or route might be variable costs such as petrol cost and the absence or presence of a mere $2 toll.

I don't disagree that we can move now with bus reform hand-in-hand with simply adding extra trains to the network and reorganising some running patterns (e.g. Ipswich express all day).

The difference between positions is one of time horizon. Adding services as Ozbob has outlined can be done now. Longer term, however, the stations do need to be reconstructed to meet DDA standards - regardless of DOO or not - and thus would be an opportune time to straighten, level, or adjust the location of them to facilitate future DOO or automated operations.

Personally, I think all central core stations should get platform screen doors - Roma Street, Central, Fortitude Valley and Bowen Hills, simply for public safety and operational reliability reasons - a single trespass incident, person having their hand door jammed, or person having their foot wedged between the train-platform gap at any of these stations could disrupt the entire QR network.

The state has shown itself willing to fund expensive capital projects - Springfield Line construction, Kippa-Ring, busways everywhere, Cross River Rail (even without Federal $) and Light Rail. So I am much more optimistic that over a longer-term horizon that ATP/DOO is achievable.

In contrast, basic operational expenditure seems to be anathema to both BCC and the Queensland Government. A simple thing like put a BUZ to Centenary - they can't bring themselves to do it. From memory, the last time off-peak rail services were upgraded was the Ferny Grove line in 2013 under Newman.

[#Metro]

By the way, we can also work out approximately what patronage increase it would take to get Queensland Rail back into line with its peers.

The operating cost per passenger trip with TransPerth hovers around $5.70, let's make it $6 for simplicity. TransPerth is the closest thing we have to an Apple, so let's use it.

For Queensland Rail, it is $10.50 per passenger trip, or thereabouts.

For Queensland Rail to have the same per passenger trip cost as Perth, we just divide $10.50 into $6, to give us a factor of 1.75. (We assume that QR is run just as efficiently as TransPerth or perhaps even more so given the whole guards/no guards labour cost issue).

Now, if Queensland Rail had 53 million trips, then 1.75x that is about 93 million trips.

So basically, annual patronage would have to go up about 75%, or just under double. Although this seems ambitious, it is in line with what was achieved when BUZ routes were introduced. One would have to be incredibly selective about where the frequency increases were applied, focusing on corridors with the highest potential patronage gain first. Success on the first step will make subsequent steps easier to justify.

By the way, a doubling of pax on trains implies that at least some of those pax would be switched out of the BCC bus network.

[HappyTrainGuy]

The state has also shown how they are willing to  f**** up infrastructure so they ccan look like they are spending on infrastructure. Crr is full of flaws. Kippa ring had cost cutting to the max applied to it (including removing active transport along the corridor). Springfield extension was the same as Kippa ring with its active transport connections removed. Lawnton to Petrie was a cluster f****. Ngr don't get anyone started on. Petrie had NWTC provisions removed. Other projects have been delayed. Busways are flawed blackholes.

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

26th August 2019

SEQ Public transport patronage fell 11.5% (population adjusted) period 2011 > 2018

Good Morning,

Another way of looking at public transport patronage over time is to calculate the public transport trips per capita.

SEQ population was 3.01 million in 2011*, trips was 178.5 million. This gives a figure of 59.3 trips/capita.

SEQ population was 3.48 million in 2018*, trips was 182.8 million.  This gives a figure of 52.5 trips/capita.

* https://profile.id.com.au/australia/population?WebID=330

So there was a decrease of 11.5%.

This means is that when adjusted for population, public transport patronage has decreased over the period in SEQ.

We need to turn this around.

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Atrtached:  https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=13648.msg226300#msg226300

[ozbob]

SEQ Public transport patronage fell 11.5% (population adjusted) period 2011 > 2018
👉 https://t.co/9ADMlyA9e9#qldpol #Target400 pic.twitter.com/PNqeAjdHn7

— RAIL_BoT_Forum (@railbotforum) August 26, 2019

[Gazza]

Worldwide, relatively few systems have converted lines to driverless.
Not even in technologically leading countries like Japan, Sweden, Germany etc has it happened on a widespread basis...why not?

That's not to say it's impossible, but it could well be that the capital costs associated with making a line suitable (screen doors, better fencing, changes to junctions, signalling etc)
for driverless are uneconomical on some legacy systems because the labour savings would not be enough to repay the costs in any sort of reasonable timeframe.

Sydney successfully converted the Epping Chatswood line because it is fairly segregated.
It remains to be see how well they do with the Bankstown conversion.
I think the eastern suburbs line is a good candidate too, but trains from the Illawarra  would need to be diverted.
Sydney is best placed out of all Australian cities because freight is largely separated in the metro area, and they only have like 4 LXes in the whole city.

Other cities and lines in Australia would have varying levels of complexity.

Melbourne would be difficult due to the tangled nature of their network and huge number of flat junctions. And despite their hard efforts to remove heaps of LXes, there will still be over 100 once the current removal campaign is done.

In perth, the legacy lines have too many LXes, but I think the Mandurah to Butler corridor is absolutely a prime candidate for conversion since it's independent really.

Adelaide hasn't even fully got the trains running on electric traction after starting the efforts over 10 years ago, theyre out.

Brisbane feelsa long way off. The projects like the inland rail link to separate freight, trouts rd etc are all on the drawing board but just need to happen.

[SurfRail]

QR's costs per passenger are absurdly high, the only way to get it down realistically is to carry more passengers.   
If they don't they are a sitting duck for privatisation under a LNP Government.

I believe it is around $10 per passenger trip (ballpark). It is one of the most expensive in the world for a city > 1 million.

Perth has it around $5 per passenger trip, comparable to Sydney which is about ~ $6 per trip from Sydney Trains most recent annual report.

Rail Patronage Management - effectiveness in practice, and new theoretical frames
Hale & Charles
http://backontrack.org/docs/wctr10.pdf

I strongly suspect most of the fixed costs of operating the network outweigh crew and maintenance wages as a line item expense, if anybody could shed light on that feel free.

By definition, fixed costs are fixed, whether you operate 1 train or 100. Thus, they are not a deciding factor when considering adding an additional train to the schedule. In contrast, variable costs, e.g. labour, increases in step with the number of services, and as such, would be a strong factor in the decision to add more services.

To use a car example, you might buy a car for $20,000 and pay hundreds of dollars in annual registration fees, insurances, cleaning, and regular maintenance. But what might influence your trip at a particular time of day or route might be variable costs such as petrol cost and the absence or presence of a mere $2 toll.

I don't disagree that we can move now with bus reform hand-in-hand with simply adding extra trains to the network and reorganising some running patterns (e.g. Ipswich express all day).

The difference between positions is one of time horizon. Adding services as Ozbob has outlined can be done now. Longer term, however, the stations do need to be reconstructed to meet DDA standards - regardless of DOO or not - and thus would be an opportune time to straighten, level, or adjust the location of them to facilitate future DOO or automated operations.

Personally, I think all central core stations should get platform screen doors - Roma Street, Central, Fortitude Valley and Bowen Hills, simply for public safety and operational reliability reasons - a single trespass incident, person having their hand door jammed, or person having their foot wedged between the train-platform gap at any of these stations could disrupt the entire QR network.

The state has shown itself willing to fund expensive capital projects - Springfield Line construction, Kippa-Ring, busways everywhere, Cross River Rail (even without Federal $) and Light Rail. So I am much more optimistic that over a longer-term horizon that ATP/DOO is achievable.

In contrast, basic operational expenditure seems to be anathema to both BCC and the Queensland Government. A simple thing like put a BUZ to Centenary - they can't bring themselves to do it. From memory, the last time off-peak rail services were upgraded was the Ferny Grove line in 2013 under Newman.

The point I was making that if most of QR's costs are fixed because they are tied to perway and fleet maintenance, it doesn't matter terribly much that our trains have 2 staff.  The only way to get 1 or 0 staff is to spend tens of billions dollars over decades, so DOO is not relevant to the issue at hand, which is running more services now with the assets we have and upgrades that are on the horizon.

We need to look at all areas of the business for cost savings.  I don't know how far that can go in practical terms.  Having so much of the network trafficked by freight probably doesn't help the maintenance task.  It probably needs to be the subject of a proper investigation to work out what can change - and if the answer is "not much without spending shedloads", then work out just how much more money it is worth pumping in and where.

Central P1-4 platform raising is probably the most important thing in the inner city other than ETCS Level 2 at this point.  It is so, so slow to get people off trains with such a vertical gap, especially with 2 doors.  If you can limit dwell time here, you can have trains completing an end to end trip more quickly.  PSDs, based on my observations at Chatswood recently and based on years of using the QSBA and KGSBS, will probably exacerbate dwell time, even though they are a necessary precursor to unattended operation in a highly passenger intensive environment - same as door closing warnings among other things.

[#Metro]

The point I was making that if most of QR's costs are fixed because they are tied to perway and fleet maintenance, it doesn't matter terribly much that our trains have 2 staff.

Variable costs are what influence how many services are scheduled because labor costs directly increase or decrease with an increase or decrease in scheduled services.

To be as cost effective as the TransPerth network, patronage on QR trains would essentially have to double, more or less in line with what Ozbob is proposing.

Platform screen doors will be installed at CRR stations for the reasons I outlined, so I do not see why they should not also be added to core CBD stations as well for those same reasons.

[Gazza]

Surfrail dont you get some swings and roundabouts with PSDs? Yes they take a bit more time with warnings, but on the other hand trains can enter a crowded station more safely, so can come in faster.

[timh]

The point I was making that if most of QR's costs are fixed because they are tied to perway and fleet maintenance, it doesn't matter terribly much that our trains have 2 staff.

Variable costs are what influence how many services are scheduled because labor costs directly increase or decrease with an increase or decrease in scheduled services.

To be as cost effective as the TransPerth network, patronage on QR trains would essentially have to double, more or less in line with what Ozbob is proposing.

Platform screen doors will be installed at CRR stations for the reasons I outlined, so I do not see why they should not also be added to core CBD stations as well for those same reasons.

I'm all for Platform screen doors. It's a much safer option and future proofs the network for future. Prime candidates for PSDs are what Metro has already underlined: Central, Fortitude Valley. I also think Ipswich and Toowong would work due to their station structure layout. The new Roma Street & Cultural Centre underground busway stations are getting them as well from memory.

[#Metro]

Valley should be first, purely because of higher number of intoxicated people on Fri and Sat night. Will also reduce the sad reality of people jumping in front of services.

[achiruel]

Let's look at which parts of the QR network could realistically be automated:

Beenleigh-Varsity Lakes
Darra-Springfield

Everywhere else has interaction with freight/long distance services, level crossings, low platforms or some combination of three. There's little point investing in automated rolling stock for such a small section of the network, considering it'll also need to have crew cabins for when it enters the manual section.

You talk about the Sydney Metro but for the Northwest it's basically 85% brand new track, and even the old part isn't that old. Nothing like that exists in Brisbane.

[Gazza]

I guess Petrie Kippa Ring falls into that category too.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Stop with the automation talk. You need a good thumping to knock some sense into you especially when you include small sections of a spur line, no signalling and rollingstock not equiped. Don't waste your and everyone else's time saying where it can be implemented. Pointless.

Most people jump in front of trains at outer stations. Not inner city. Valley most of the time has trains speed restricted or held outside due to something happening on the platform usually involving police which might delay a couple of services. Once it's clear it's back to full track speed. You can always access the tunnels as the platform fire exits go that way. If someone wants to run into a tunnel a platform door to a train or a fire exit door won't stop someone from doing so.

The major reason for crr going screen doors is station cooling, noise and the wind disturbance from trains. Trains would still approach at the same speed if there were doors or not. Exhibition won't have doors from what I recall.

[#Metro]

Disagree. The impact at core stations is proportionately higher simply because all trains must funnel through that section.

Wall to ceiling PSDs will also stop balloons and plastic bags going into the overheard wires.

All the reasons you gave for PSDs in CRR also apply at Toowong, Central and Fortitude Valley.

You talk about the Sydney Metro but for the Northwest it's basically 85% brand new track, and even the old part isn't that old. Nothing like that exists in Brisbane.

And the line to Bankstown - which isn't new??

[SurfRail]

The point I was making that if most of QR's costs are fixed because they are tied to perway and fleet maintenance, it doesn't matter terribly much that our trains have 2 staff.

Variable costs are what influence how many services are scheduled because labor costs directly increase or decrease with an increase or decrease in scheduled services.

To be as cost effective as the TransPerth network, patronage on QR trains would essentially have to double, more or less in line with what Ozbob is proposing.

Platform screen doors will be installed at CRR stations for the reasons I outlined, so I do not see why they should not also be added to core CBD stations as well for those same reasons.

I'm not sure if we are at cross purposes here, but the point I'm trying to make (apparently with little success) is that DOO is not an enabler of higher off-peak frequency - actually spending money to put trains on is.  The marginal cost of doing that with 1 vs 2 crew is bugger all of the total cost of operating the railway full stop.  It is the only way we will get more people on the system, because even with TODs at places like Buranda people will just catch the bus if it is there more frequently.

Enabling DOO involves billions of dollars of work (which is needed) so in the short term it is cheaper to just bite the bullet and have more crew, then gradually redeploy guards into driving positions once DOO becomes possible. 

[SurfRail]

Surfrail dont you get some swings and roundabouts with PSDs? Yes they take a bit more time with warnings, but on the other hand trains can enter a crowded station more safely, so can come in faster.

Basically.  It's still worth doing but it's not going to be as materially significant to dwell times as just raising the platforms and not putting PSDs in.

[SurfRail]

And the line to Bankstown - which isn't new??

But the bit being converted is already operationally segregated from everything else including freight, which only runs parallel to the T3 line tracks.  There aren't many other parts of Sydney that are in the same boat for more than a fraction of their length.  North Shore line and the ESR are probably the best examples, otherwise its only branches or parts of them eg Blacktown to Richmond, Glenfield to Leppington, the Cronulla branch, Olympic Park.  Everything else is touched by freight or long-distance, or stuff which has to interact with them.

It's even worse up here because while the Bankstown line has something to feed into (new tunnel being built to Sydenham), there is nothing up here that will connect any of the freight-free bits to the CBD except basically for Ferny Grove to Roma St (and that track pair is used by other lines which do interact with freight).

[ozbob]

Letter to the Editor Queensland Times 27th August 2019 page 17

Tackling the drop in public transport use

Sent to all outlets:

26th August 2019

SEQ Public transport patronage fell 11.5% (population adjusted) period 2011 > 2018

Good Morning,

Another way of looking at public transport patronage over time is to calculate the public transport trips per capita.

SEQ population was 3.01 million in 2011*, trips was 178.5 million. This gives a figure of 59.3 trips/capita.

SEQ population was 3.48 million in 2018*, trips was 182.8 million.  This gives a figure of 52.5 trips/capita.

* https://profile.id.com.au/australia/population?WebID=330

So there was a decrease of 11.5%.

This means is that when adjusted for population, public transport patronage has decreased over the period in SEQ.

We need to turn this around.

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Atrtached:  https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=13648.msg226300#msg226300

[ozbob]

Letter to the Editor @qld_times 27th August 2019 page 17
' Tackling the drop in public transport use 'https://t.co/ztfl7JnXOy#qldpol
Poor service frequency and poor connections must be sorted!#Target400 pic.twitter.com/CYLWgjniy7

— RAIL_BoT_Forum (@railbotforum) August 26, 2019

[ozbob]

^ shocker! 

If this is not a wake up call, don't know what is ...  ( got that lurkers!  )

[SurfRail]

The only region that has turned this around is the GC.  Maybe it's time to have our own standalone agency responsible for just us.

[ozbob]

Waiting on the 2018/19 patronage data.  Will be an interesting analysis.

[achiruel]

The only region that has turned this around is the GC.  Maybe it's time to have our own standalone agency responsible for just us.

Hell no!

While the Gold Coast has done very well (due in no small part to the introduction of light rail AND the bus network properly feeding into it, the last thing we need in Qld is yet another transport agency.

But yes, I rarely drive to the Gold Coast any more, and I usually go there 1-2 times per month. Exceptions are if I need to move something large and/or heavy, or I'm visiting somewhere north of Helensvale that isn't walking distance from the train (might make an exception off buses go at three right time) or west of the M1.

[SurfRail]

Devil's advocate here but the rest of the region is irretrievably broken by politics and decades of mistargeted infrastructure spending.  The Gold Coast isn't - rail network is fit for purpose (heavy and light), and the bus network is entirely self-contained.  Maybe an agency run by the state and GCCC that was actually focused on growing the network properly would be a good way of combating Brisbane-focused decision making that works to our disadvantage.  (About $20m of extra bus funding a year would fix most of the problems here.)

[techblitz]

Light rail aside (which is clearly the gold coasts best asset as it has eliminated the need for buses to access its busiest precint of surfers paradise).......most GC bus routes are fed into at least one major trip generator.... with the busiest routes fed into major retail/shopping generators at both ends.....some also have action mid-route...

704 >> southport shopping - harbortown - Helensvale plaza,  train/LR station..
750 >> pacific fair one end- robina town center the other and a train/LR station
765 >> the pines/Burleigh/Miami - robina town center....whenever I use the 765 there are always people joining before varsity and staying on after the bus leaves....whats that telling ya.... extra trip generator right there...
760 >> tweed heads tourist precinct - the pines - robina town center ,train station...

And that's what makes them.......the extra trip generators......face it....if most of these successful gold coast feeders lacked the shopping center trip generators....they would be just a another struggling 30 min frequency feeder into substandard train frequency..


The problem with Brisbane and surrounds is they aren't using every shopping center out there effectively enough......take the useless 691 for example.....make more use of it for peats sake....extend it all of 15 minutes to taigum shopping center which is the nearest major shopping hub for people in brighton etc..
Last time I was @ sandgate.......i noted one person jumping off a 691 and a departing 690 with 1 person onboard.....both routes at half hourly frequency when I observed then.......i simply have to shake my head at this...
(I will be doing some patronage analysis into these routes offpeak due to those obs)

So im pretty sure we would all love our little 690/691`s feeding into a Helensvale or robina town center at one end and a pacific fair at the other.....this is what generates patronage...especially with added frequency....

Take a look at the 545 on the southside......both ends....big retail precincts and half hourly frequency....that's why its decent on patronage...560 hyperdome - grand plaza...
Same goes for the 680...north lakes plaza, Strathpine plaza,petrie station and Chermside,kipparing shops...its coming out at 30 pax per service which Is actually better than the 545.......590 is another good one...

Frequency is only part of the picture....functionality is the other part...