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Author Topic: Express buses on southern busway  (Read 970 times)

Offline trainrover

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Express buses on southern busway
« on: March 30, 2019, 04:16:34 PM »

I can well understand why there are express runs on the southern busway in peak hours. That's a no brainer.

However, for the life of me I cannot understand why these express services are the norm in off-peak periods.
It is very usual at Greenslopes Busway station to see multiple almost empty buses heading in to the city during off-peak hours before one that stops at Greenslopes arrives. This hardly indicates any concern to provide a good service to those who would like to use public. transport. It is not as if there are passengers offering at each stop, let alone large numbers. Thank God for the 555!

Can anyone explain why this policy is in place and why it continues?

John

Offline James

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Re: Express buses on southern busway
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2019, 06:09:23 PM »
I can well understand why there are express runs on the southern busway in peak hours. That's a no brainer.

However, for the life of me I cannot understand why these express services are the norm in off-peak periods.
It is very usual at Greenslopes Busway station to see multiple almost empty buses heading in to the city during off-peak hours before one that stops at Greenslopes arrives. This hardly indicates any concern to provide a good service to those who would like to use public. transport. It is not as if there are passengers offering at each stop, let alone large numbers. Thank God for the 555!

Can anyone explain why this policy is in place and why it continues?

A few reasons:
1) I imagine having services stop only during the off-peak would cause a lot of confusion at peak hour, when buses which normally stop in the off-peak bypass their stop in peak.
2) The patronage at Holland Park West & Greenslopes does not justify a service every 5 minutes
3) There is more than enough service provided by the 111 and 555 (8bph) - better than many suburbs in Brisbane, and a more than adequate frequent service.

As for the 111 and 555 arriving at the same time - the timetable should be changed to provide even 7.5 minute frequency.
Is it really that hard to run frequent, reliable public transport?

Offline aldonius

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Re: Express buses on southern busway
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2019, 06:43:55 PM »
Side note: the 385 runs express in peak now and there hasn't seemed to be a massive outcry.

Offline trainrover

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Re: Express buses on southern busway
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2019, 08:11:18 PM »
No confusion if the off-peak stopping services have different numbers than the expresses.
I agree that the patronage at Holland Park West and Greenslopes does not justify any more buses; I'm just suggesting that during off-peak hours the existing buses could stop if someone wanted to get on or off there.
The fact that other suburbs get an inadequate service is hardly a valid argument.

Offline timh

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Re: Express buses on southern busway
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2019, 09:29:41 PM »
 What you've mentioned though does highlight the huge problem of duplication of routes on the SE Busway. The routes you're referring to aren't "express" per se, it's just that the stopping patterns of those routes don't stop at those two stops due to the patronage. I imagine you're referring to routes like the 150 and 130.

For the record, so many of those routes are hideously duplicated on the SE Busway and are a huge part of the problem that Brisbane Metro will hopefully help solve.

150 should terminate at Garden City
130 should terminate at Griffith University
160 should be removed entirely because I have no idea why that route exists considering the 111 is a thing???
The 111 will obviously just become the Metro.
Express/rocket routes like the 156/157 could still run on the Busway and serve their purpose as an express service though I feel.
And I'm sure there's a bunch of other similar routes that I am not as familiar with that can get the same treatment of truncation, with express routes only continuing to run.


I hope that the routes are actually truncated like this

Offline aldonius

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Re: Express buses on southern busway
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2019, 01:10:18 AM »
I expect with the Metro that the BUZes will continue to run all the way to the city. They're the flagship services and if they're mostly full in the peaks, then there's zero point in forcing a transfer. Likewise for P-rockets - if they're full, there's no point to a transfer.

In fact, not that many buses at all will be cut IMHO (in terms of actual numbers of services). As we all know, the Metro branding is marketing fluff, and the main aspect of the project is the inner-city infrastructure work.

Offline James

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Re: Express buses on southern busway
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2019, 12:23:31 PM »
No confusion if the off-peak stopping services have different numbers than the expresses.
I agree that the patronage at Holland Park West and Greenslopes does not justify any more buses; I'm just suggesting that during off-peak hours the existing buses could stop if someone wanted to get on or off there.
The fact that other suburbs get an inadequate service is hardly a valid argument.

My point is 8bph is more than adequate for a city like Brisbane. It is not London and Holland Park West is not the middle of Singapore - current patronage at these stations is no higher than many BUZ stops.

If you had off-peak services running with different route numbers, you would also destroy the legibility of the 130, 140 and 150 BUZ services - some of the most successful bus services in Brisbane.
Is it really that hard to run frequent, reliable public transport?

Offline Paul B

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Re: Express buses on southern busway
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2019, 03:29:31 PM »
Seeing last week's facebook whinge about delayed outbound afternoon P5xx to hyperdome areas, it made me wonder if any of these need to be boarded in the city, or can they all be caught from Griffith Uni or Upper Mt Gravatt stop? Sure, people won't like transferring, but why do these have to stay?
Why does park and ride originating service deserve a better frequency/span than walk-up originator?  At a time when the government should be winding down park n ride. Perhaps they are 'high value' peak because of a massive carpark? How is that helping surrounding areas with hourly routes?
Sandgate rd mostly runs at 1bph offpeak, and barely half hourly in peak (actually 3 buses every 2 hours for the 310). one of the 130 or 140 should terminate early, 16bph on that stretch is overkill, no matter how many asian women with bags full of baby formula disagree

Online techblitz

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Re: Express buses on southern busway
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2019, 04:22:38 PM »
i wouldnt mind seeing some truncation at the roundabout @ Griffith uni which the 112/177 currently start/end.....there was an old 262/261/260 iirc that used to turn into/out of the busway and loop back to mt Gravatt/Capalaba rd via the garden city top platforms..

Take your pick...any current or proposed route from the south......truncates after serving both griffith/garden city which essentially are the only 2 stations around that area that people want anyway(coming from the south)..

Offline STB

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Re: Express buses on southern busway
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2019, 04:56:08 PM »
Just in response to various comments....the 160 is really just there to act as a sweeper service (to support route 111) without adding any dead running kms (on paper) by starting it from the depot rather than 8MP as a 111.

The 260/262 was diverted down Gardner Road to service the new Rochedale Estate, this was something that was in the planning during my time at TL (although I personally would've preferred Route 260 to run via Gardner Road and 262 to run via Mt Gravatt-Capalaba Rd then turning both routes into full time routes) - when the diversion happened, it actually triggered complaints from mostly parents of school kids who used the 260/262 to get to Wishart in order to transfer to the 180 to get to Mansfield State High School.  I think those complaints have died down since then.

In regards to the 130/140/150, those run express partly due to the distance involved that those routes travel and patronage levels which are typically higher on those routes at certain times a day.  Also for legibility it's better to have those routes run with a standard stopping pattern than altering it during the day or at certain times of the day, saves on confusion and less difficulty in using the service for those who don't use it often.  In all honesty, route 555 really should be running express as well given the patronage and distance involved as well - it's just that when route 555 began, it supported route 111 and boosted the frequency along the busway - no real need for it nowadays though with bi-articulated buses and route 111 running at a higher frequency than it did in 2005.

Offline timh

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Re: Express buses on southern busway
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2019, 06:19:47 PM »
Just in response to various comments....the 160 is really just there to act as a sweeper service (to support route 111) without adding any dead running kms (on paper) by starting it from the depot rather than 8MP as a 111.

The 260/262 was diverted down Gardner Road to service the new Rochedale Estate, this was something that was in the planning during my time at TL (although I personally would've preferred Route 260 to run via Gardner Road and 262 to run via Mt Gravatt-Capalaba Rd then turning both routes into full time routes) - when the diversion happened, it actually triggered complaints from mostly parents of school kids who used the 260/262 to get to Wishart in order to transfer to the 180 to get to Mansfield State High School.  I think those complaints have died down since then.

In regards to the 130/140/150, those run express partly due to the distance involved that those routes travel and patronage levels which are typically higher on those routes at certain times a day.  Also for legibility it's better to have those routes run with a standard stopping pattern than altering it during the day or at certain times of the day, saves on confusion and less difficulty in using the service for those who don't use it often.  In all honesty, route 555 really should be running express as well given the patronage and distance involved as well - it's just that when route 555 began, it supported route 111 and boosted the frequency along the busway - no real need for it nowadays though with bi-articulated buses and route 111 running at a higher frequency than it did in 2005.

That actually clarifies a lot, thanks!

What do you think about truncating routes like the 130/140/150 when Brisbane metro kicks in? You seem to come for a background that would have a fairly educated opinion on this...

Offline Mr X

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Re: Express buses on southern busway
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2019, 08:48:33 PM »
I would say there's an argument for the 555 skipping Buranda -> Holland Park, particularly when the Brisbane metro opens. From 3pm onwards, the buses are almost always full and leave people behind, which is particularly annoying because the 111 doesn't serve Springwood, while people using the 555 to go to Buranda have a long list of other buses they could be taking instead.

The 130/140/150 don't have the capacity to serve those stops either, and have to service quite a long distance.

Slightly O/T but it's a shame there's nothing in the works for northbound bus lanes from the hyperdome to 8 mile plains.
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Offline James

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Re: Express buses on southern busway
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2019, 07:36:11 AM »
Slightly O/T but it's a shame there's nothing in the works for northbound bus lanes from the hyperdome to 8 mile plains.

I believe an extension of the busway from the current end at School Rd to Springwood is in the pipeline as part of the next M1 upgrade - so hopefully we’ll get at least part of that upgrade in the next 5 years. Long overdue though!
Is it really that hard to run frequent, reliable public transport?

Offline timh

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Re: Express buses on southern busway
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2019, 02:01:02 PM »
Slightly O/T but it's a shame there's nothing in the works for northbound bus lanes from the hyperdome to 8 mile plains.

I believe an extension of the busway from the current end at School Rd to Springwood is in the pipeline as part of the next M1 upgrade - so hopefully we’ll get at least part of that upgrade in the next 5 years. Long overdue though!

It's sort of in the pipeline, sort of isn't. The design is complete, but funding and interest in the project dried up years ago with the 2011 floods. The current widening/bus on-ramp moving upgrade they are doing from EMP to Daisy Hill right now is being done in such a way that it accommodates for the corridor for the busway (ie it can be built straight away without having to realign the M1 etc., however there's no concrete plans to actually start on construction anytime soon sadly.  I was glad to see though they are still preserving the big chunk of land at Rochedale near the intersection of Underwood road and school road for the big busway station/park and ride that is planned for there.

Offline STB

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Re: Express buses on southern busway
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2019, 04:40:10 PM »
Just in response to various comments....the 160 is really just there to act as a sweeper service (to support route 111) without adding any dead running kms (on paper) by starting it from the depot rather than 8MP as a 111.

The 260/262 was diverted down Gardner Road to service the new Rochedale Estate, this was something that was in the planning during my time at TL (although I personally would've preferred Route 260 to run via Gardner Road and 262 to run via Mt Gravatt-Capalaba Rd then turning both routes into full time routes) - when the diversion happened, it actually triggered complaints from mostly parents of school kids who used the 260/262 to get to Wishart in order to transfer to the 180 to get to Mansfield State High School.  I think those complaints have died down since then.

In regards to the 130/140/150, those run express partly due to the distance involved that those routes travel and patronage levels which are typically higher on those routes at certain times a day.  Also for legibility it's better to have those routes run with a standard stopping pattern than altering it during the day or at certain times of the day, saves on confusion and less difficulty in using the service for those who don't use it often.  In all honesty, route 555 really should be running express as well given the patronage and distance involved as well - it's just that when route 555 began, it supported route 111 and boosted the frequency along the busway - no real need for it nowadays though with bi-articulated buses and route 111 running at a higher frequency than it did in 2005.

That actually clarifies a lot, thanks!

What do you think about truncating routes like the 130/140/150 when Brisbane metro kicks in? You seem to come for a background that would have a fairly educated opinion on this...

I don't think there's enough capacity for 3 high frequency bus routes to terminate at Griffith University.  Speculating that at least two of those routes would probably need to be diverted to Garden City via Kessells Road in order to have the space to terminate, you'd still probably need 1 high frequency route to continue between Browns Plains and Brisbane City via Mains Rd.

Offline Mr X

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Re: Express buses on southern busway
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2019, 07:35:58 PM »
Traffic on Kessels Rd is hideous. There's no way you'd want to send the 130 and 140 down there.
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Offline timh

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Re: Express buses on southern busway
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2019, 07:51:34 PM »
Just in response to various comments....the 160 is really just there to act as a sweeper service (to support route 111) without adding any dead running kms (on paper) by starting it from the depot rather than 8MP as a 111.

The 260/262 was diverted down Gardner Road to service the new Rochedale Estate, this was something that was in the planning during my time at TL (although I personally would've preferred Route 260 to run via Gardner Road and 262 to run via Mt Gravatt-Capalaba Rd then turning both routes into full time routes) - when the diversion happened, it actually triggered complaints from mostly parents of school kids who used the 260/262 to get to Wishart in order to transfer to the 180 to get to Mansfield State High School.  I think those complaints have died down since then.

In regards to the 130/140/150, those run express partly due to the distance involved that those routes travel and patronage levels which are typically higher on those routes at certain times a day.  Also for legibility it's better to have those routes run with a standard stopping pattern than altering it during the day or at certain times of the day, saves on confusion and less difficulty in using the service for those who don't use it often.  In all honesty, route 555 really should be running express as well given the patronage and distance involved as well - it's just that when route 555 began, it supported route 111 and boosted the frequency along the busway - no real need for it nowadays though with bi-articulated buses and route 111 running at a higher frequency than it did in 2005.

That actually clarifies a lot, thanks!

What do you think about truncating routes like the 130/140/150 when Brisbane metro kicks in? You seem to come for a background that would have a fairly educated opinion on this...

I don't think there's enough capacity for 3 high frequency bus routes to terminate at Griffith University.  Speculating that at least two of those routes would probably need to be diverted to Garden City via Kessells Road in order to have the space to terminate, you'd still probably need 1 high frequency route to continue between Browns Plains and Brisbane City via Mains Rd.

The 150 doesn't need to run down Kessels road. Just runs up Logan road straight to Garden city, could easily terminate there.

Offline SurfRail

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Re: Express buses on southern busway
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2019, 08:40:59 PM »
I don't think there's enough capacity for 3 high frequency bus routes to terminate at Griffith University.  Speculating that at least two of those routes would probably need to be diverted to Garden City via Kessells Road in order to have the space to terminate, you'd still probably need 1 high frequency route to continue between Browns Plains and Brisbane City via Mains Rd.

I don't think terminus capacity will be an issue, the plans show a fair bit of expansion at GU.

Ultimately the most ill-conceived part of the whole plan is their inability to truly move to a hub and spoke model.  If half of the buses going through the Cultural Centre (even underground) are still standard rigid buses, is it really worth it?
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Offline aldonius

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Re: Express buses on southern busway
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2019, 11:23:07 PM »
My impression when I talked to the network guys back at the public meeting in 2017 was that they weren't going to prune that extensively.

I highly doubt any BUZ is getting short-terminated (after all, many of them they could simply drop peak frequency back to base levels if squeezing out air was required).

 

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