General Retail - Supermarkets, Shopping Centres, Department Stores

[verbatim9]

This may pave the way for changes  in and around the bus station as well.

[verbatim9]

Brisbane Development's Proposal




🙂

[timh]

Myer to leave Queen st mall site later this year...

Time to remove the car park exit from Albert Street.  Actually get rid of the car parking al together.  Water tank anywone?

Fairly certain that's a loading dock, not a carpark exit

Brisbane Development's Proposal




🙂

Ah yes. Brisbane Development's usually foamy Daahir Insaat style bullsh%t. That building in the render looks like DLC for Cities Skylines

[SurfRail]

Fairly certain that's a loading dock, not a carpark exit

Suspect this is a reference to the exit that spits cars out onto Charlotte Street.

[verbatim9]

The morotorium on retail hours ends at the end of next month, so it will be interesting to which areas of Brisbane are further deregulated.

I would like to see the following areas of Brisbane move to a Type 1 retail trading area, as these areas are the highest in density around Brisbane. Furthermore, the new hours can cater tourists in these areas, as well shift workers.

Brisbane City
Fortitude Valley
Kangaroo Point
Milton
Newstead
South Brisbane
Spring Hill
Toowong
Woolloongabba

Current Type 1 trading hours are:


Monday to Friday - 6am - 10pm

Saturday -7am - 10pm

Sunday and public holidays, other than closed days 7am - 9pm


There are mooted proposed changes that would extend Type 1 trading hours to:

Monday to Friday - 6am - 11pm

Saturday - 7am - 11pm

Sunday and public holidays, other than closed days - 7am - 10pm


^^It's going to be an interesting few months in that respect

[verbatim9]

Lots in the media today about Toombul, as it's getting demolished over the next 4-5 months.

[SurfRail]

Trading hours legislation should all be abolished.  There is zero good reason for it now (and doubtful there ever was).

The only regulatory requirements which I think are needed are:

- Core trading hours under the Retail Shop Leases Act (ie those periods when a landlord can and can't make a tenant trade).  These can be identical Statewide.

- Trading restrictions on Anzac Day for non-essential businesses before afternoon.

The only other restriction on when you can and can't open any business for trading should be up to town planning requirements.

Simple.

[AnonymouslyBad]

The only regulatory requirements which I think are needed are:

- Core trading hours under the Retail Shop Leases Act (ie those periods when a landlord can and can't make a tenant trade).  These can be identical Statewide.

What's the current situation under this Act?
I'd argue the hours of shopping centres are the real issue. Queensland's trading hours do need deregulation but for most shops they haven't been the limiting factor for a very, very long time. When most people in the community complain about trading hours in "Queensland" they really mean "Westfield".

Google says core trading hours can be changed by a majority vote of tenants but I can't imagine a world where 51% of shops agree to open at 9am (when they have few or no customers) and close at 5.30. I also can't imagine a world where 51% of shops agree on any trading hours which is maybe how the centres are getting away with it. I guess this part actually needs tightening up!

[achiruel]

@AnonymouslyBad, the majority of retail tenants in Westfield and the like probably aren't affected by trading hours legislation anyway. The main beneficiaries of deregulation will be the large corporate stores—the supermarket duopoly, and stores operated by Wesfarmers.

The majority of stores at your local Westfield can already open until 9pm every weeknight and Saturday, but the fact the majority choose not to is telling.

[#Metro]

Trading hours legislation should all be abolished.  There is zero good reason for it now (and doubtful there ever was).

Agree. Might be a bit unusual for Olympic spectators to find most stores close early in Brisbane.

From a PT perspective I think it would also allow the load to be spread better across services.

A Review of Queensland's Trading  (Allowable Hours) Act 1990
https://cabinet.qld.gov.au/documents/2017/Feb/RevTrHrs/Attachments/Review.PDF

Failing this, the next best thing would be to just do it for the whole SEQ LGA area.

If we look over at what WA is doing:

General trading hours
Trading hours for general retail shops in the Perth metropolitan area are shown below.  Traders do not have to open, however may choose when they open within the specified trading hours.

8.00am to 9.00pm on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday Thursday and Friday
8.00am to 5.00pm on Saturday
11.00am to 5.00pm on Sunday
11.00am to 5.00pm on public holidays
CLOSED on ANZAC day, Christmas Day and Good Friday

There might be a case to say, Monday to Friday trade 24 hrs OK.

Retail trading hours
https://www.commerce.wa.gov.au/consumer-protection/retail-trading-hours

[achiruel]

Agree. Might be a bit unusual for Olympic spectators to find most stores close early in Brisbane.

What rubbish. Plenty of countries have trading hours restrictions. For example, Germany has even more restrictive trading hours than Australia. You seem to be thinking all our visitors will be from the USA.

From a PT perspective I think it would also allow the load to be spread better across services.

You keep making this claim, but have never presented any evidence to support it.

[#Metro]

What rubbish. Plenty of countries have trading hours restrictions. For example, Germany has even more restrictive trading hours than Australia. You seem to be thinking all our visitors will be from the USA.

Have you considered that it is not necessary to refer to other countries or 'America'? I mean, you could simply look at other Australian states and territories are doing? 

ACT and NT just allow you to open and close when you please, bar public holidays.

ACT

Trading hours restrictions in the Australian Capital Territory are deregulated except for public holidays.

NSW

Trading hours restrictions in NSW vary depending on the type of shop and the location of the shop.

Exempt stores: Unrestricted, but on a restricted trading day (ie Good Friday, Easter Sunday, prior to 1pm on ANZAC Day, Christmas Day, Boxing Day) an exempted shop may only be staffed by persons who have freely elected to work on that day.

Non-exempt stores
(ie large retail shops subject to trading hours restrictions)

Non-exempt shops are not defined but the category includes large retailers operating supermarkets and department stores.

New South Wales non-exempt stores only have restrictions on Christmas Day, Good Friday, Easter Sunday and Anzac Day.

NT

Trading hours restrictions in the Northern Territory are deregulated except for public holidays. Trading Hours

SA

South Australia regulates large shop trading hours in the Greater Adelaide Shopping District (CBD Tourist Precinct, Metropolitan Shopping District and Glenelg Tourist Precinct) and in 35 Proclaimed Shopping Districts in country area.  All shops outside those area are exempt and can trade when they choose, including on all public holidays.

TAS

Non-exempt stores
(ie large retail shops subject to trading hours restrictions)

Non-exempt shops are not defined but the category includes large retailers operating supermarkets and department stores.

Tasmanian non-exempt stores only have restrictions on Christmas Day, Good Friday and Anzac Day.

VIC

Non-exempt stores
(ie large retail shops subject to trading hours restrictions)

Non-exempt shops are not defined but the category includes large retailers operating supermarkets and department stores.

Victorian non-exempt stores only have restrictions on Christmas Day, Good Friday and Anzac Day.

WA

General retail shops
Trading hours for general retail shops in the Perth metropolitan area are:
8:00am to 9:00pm on Monday to Friday; and
8:00am to 5:00pm on Saturday; and
11:00am to 5:00pm on Sunday; and
11:00am to 5:00pm on public holidays; but
Closed on Christmas Day, Good Friday and Anzac Day.
Trading hours for general retail shops not in the Perth metropolitan area are:
8:00am to 6:00pm Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Friday; and
8:00am to 9:00pm Thursday; and
8:00am to 5:00pm Saturday; and
closed Sunday and public holidays.

You keep making this claim, but have never presented any evidence to support it.

Do people conducting late night shopping in Brisbane on Thursday or Friday use public transport?

Sources:
NRA https://www.nationalretail.org.au/topics/trading-hours/#

[#Metro]

For example, Germany has even more restrictive trading hours than Australia.

OK.

Berlin.de
The Official Website of Berlin

Information about shop opening hours and Sunday shopping in Berlin.

From small boutiques to large shopping malls and bustling high streets: Berlin's shopping opportunities are rich and diverse. From Monday to Saturday, there are practically no legal regulations restricting the shopping hours, which means that shops are permitted to open at any time. On Sundays and public holidays, shops are generally closed. There are, however, up to eight specific Sundays each year on which shops are allowed to open.

Shop Opening Hours: Monday to Saturday
From Monday to Saturday, shops, department stores, malls and supermarkets are usually open between 8, 9 or 10 AM and 8, 9 or 10 PM. Some supermarkets already open their doors at 7 AM. On Christmas Eve and New Year's Eve, all shops close at 2 PM (when not a Sunday).

Sunday Shopping
Except for a few select supermarkets in large train stations, shops in Berlin generally remain closed on Sundays. Exceptions are made on specific Shopping Sundays. Shops are allowed to open on eight fixed Sundays per year, two of which are during Advent. In addition, shops may open for special occasions on two Sundays or holidays per year. Opening hours on Shopping Sundays are usually 1 PM to 6 PM.

It isn't fully deregulated, but 8, 9, or 10 pm on weekdays is pretty generous.

Historically, hours were very restrictive, but this too has changed.

The German capital city, the city-state of Berlin, was the very first to pass a liberalized store-closing law, quickly followed by eight other states, from Hamburg in the north to Baden-Württemberg in the south. The "early adopters" tended to go with the so-called "24/6 rule" (6×24-Regelung), meaning that on every day except Sunday there is no restriction on opening hours. Sundays and holidays are regulated to varying degree.

Source:

Berlin.de https://www.berlin.de/en/tourism/travel-information/1740536-2862820-shopping-hours-sunday-shopping.en.html

Shopping Hours in Germany
https://www.german-way.com/travel-and-tourism/germany-for-tourists/shopping-in-germany/shopping-hours-in-germany/

[verbatim9]

Despite, the anomaly in the German situation most of Europe  have generally limited restrictions on retail hours now. Even the nordic country of Finland is totally deregulated.

I don't think that Queenslanders would want the German situation replicated here in Qld. Sundays are now one of the busiest days when it comes to grocery shopping and it is also important to our tourism dependant economy.

Saying that all retailers on Sundays and public holidays should be allowed to open between 7am-10pm.

[Jonno]

I believe if you own a business then you can operate it when you like assuming it does not disturb surround businesses/residents!

And yes I lived across the road from a pub/nightclub in Sydney! You got the odd "But I love you" debate at 2am in the street but they were fun to talk about the next day at work!

I do think though that we should not have shopping centres where there is a management company telling with when you can open and how much they will charge for it as well. But that has as much to do with urban design than it does opening hours.

[#Metro]

I believe if you own a business then you can operate it when you like assuming it does not disturb surround businesses/residents!

Agree with Jonno. Hospitality workers work these non-retail trading hours, as do many other industries.  You could also argue that the hospitality and retail industry labour sources are fungible (interchangeable). An argument against expanded hours would have to explain that difference as not relevant, and also explain the inconsistency created by allowing retail nightfill staff to work but not general retail staff.

The option exists to handle concerns about specific groups through stronger protections and regulation in labour law and flexibility. There are already such regulations around children and working on public holidays (has to be voluntary for the employee IIRC). An argument against expanded hours would need to demonstrate that approach as inferior to the current one.



PS: Coming back to the TOD theme, mixed use also implies activity outside of core business hours of 9-5 pm. It's not going to be a very fun TOD development if everything shuts down and its a ghost town at 6 pm.

[SurfRail]

The only regulatory requirements which I think are needed are:

- Core trading hours under the Retail Shop Leases Act (ie those periods when a landlord can and can't make a tenant trade).  These can be identical Statewide.

What's the current situation under this Act?
I'd argue the hours of shopping centres are the real issue. Queensland's trading hours do need deregulation but for most shops they haven't been the limiting factor for a very, very long time. When most people in the community complain about trading hours in "Queensland" they really mean "Westfield".

Google says core trading hours can be changed by a majority vote of tenants but I can't imagine a world where 51% of shops agree to open at 9am (when they have few or no customers) and close at 5.30. I also can't imagine a world where 51% of shops agree on any trading hours which is maybe how the centres are getting away with it. I guess this part actually needs tightening up!

The more complex issue in Queensland is that the trading hours legislation governs when you are lawfully permitted to open, and it can depend on the particular size of your business (based on number of employees).  I can see no good purpose to those restrictions.

Core trading hours protections should protect tenants from being compelled to open for trade outside of certain hours but if you want to be open 24/7 and the landlord is prepared to provide any "after-hours" services that may be required, I can't see any reason why you shouldn't be.  The only limiting factor at law should be town planning related, not some separate regime.

[SurfRail]

I do think though that we should not have shopping centres where there is a management company telling with when you can open and how much they will charge for it as well. But that has as much to do with urban design than it does opening hours.

I generally agree but given the nature of a shopping centre, there are costs to a lessor in providing access and services outside of "normal" trading hours, and a lessee would generally be required to contribute to those.  The commercial terms can vary this calculus of course (the parties may have agreed on a gross rent where the tenant only pays for utilities consumption on top, the parties may have agreed on a turnover rent component which depends on the tenant's trading performance etc).  These arrangements aren't limited to shoppping centres, so any lessor could potentially end up paying more for the lessee's benefit depending on the situation.

The real issue for me is that Queensland's regulatory arrangements are so complicated that even though I deal with this stuff daily for work, I can't explain in simple terms whether any given business can trade at any given time without plowing through a lot of muck.  I've had clients who owned shopping centres that were just outside what the QIRC defined to be SEQ, and as a consequence their tenants suffered because everybody went to the other shopping centre that was just as far away but was on the side of the border that allowed Sunday trading.  It's stupid.  I can't see what particular mischief is stopped by preventing people from trading if they want to and it isn't a town planning / neighbour nuisance problem, and I'm not in favour of restrictions that have no real benefit.

[#Metro]

Article in the BT today ($):

The offensive reason you can't shop at night

Queensland's "simplified" trading-hour rules remain an absurd tangle of zones, exemptions and demographics.

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/politics/queensland/the-offensive-reason-you-can-t-shop-at-night-20230717-p5doyj.html

[verbatim9]

Good article, but he forgot to mention that the morotorium on retail hours end at the end of this month, so there is a greater possibility of further deregulation in Brisbane in the near future.

Despite that I understand and sympathise with his views and frustration.

[AnonymouslyBad]

I generally agree but given the nature of a shopping centre, there are costs to a lessor in providing access and services outside of "normal" trading hours, and a lessee would generally be required to contribute to those. 

Ah, here we go!

On paper this sounds fine but - without seeing proof either way - it seems obvious that shopping centres aren't interested in enabling evening trade on "fair commercial terms".

90% or even 95% of shops in your average shopping centre open their doors and close their doors exactly when the landlord wants. I don't believe for one second that this is because Woolies (et al.) are willing to pay and other retailers - who often sit empty during the day - are not. It would seem obvious the centres simply aren't offering the option or, if they are, they're setting arbitarily high "f*** off" pricing that's certainly different to what they offer the majors.

Smells like a cartel to me.

[SurfRail]

^ Like it or not, shopping centres cost money to run and a lot of the expenses are incurred centre wide regardless of who is open. 

Either everybody pays more in rent and/or outgoings to facilitate later trade, or only those who wish to trade late do.  It's actually quite fair.  Scentre, Vicinity, QIC etc aren't charities.

[achiruel]

For example, Germany has even more restrictive trading hours than Australia.

OK.

Well done, you've proved my point. Berlin has less avaiable shopping hours per week than Brisbane does. Being open 1 hour later on Mon-Sat doesn't make up for the lower availability on Sundays.

Do people conducting late night shopping in Brisbane on Thursday or Friday use public transport?

Very few, from my observations. Go to Garden City on a Thursday night and look at the stream of cars entering from MacGregor St compared to the relatively few people walking from the bus station—and that's only one road entrance.

You won't fix the off-peak public transport takeup by allowing shops to open later, considering most shops (other than the big 2 supermarkets, K-Mart & Bunnings) already don't open for the full extent of their allowable trading hours.

Even other major department stores like Target and Big W don't bother. Aldi doesn't bother. The only ones who will benefit from extended trading hours will be Coles, Woolies, and Wesfarmers, allowing them to even further increase their dominance over their respective markets. Of course, if we had an ACCC with some teeth, this wouldn't be an issue in the first place.

[#Metro]

Disagree. The trend here is clearly from more restrictive to less restrictive positions.

If Berlin had gone from its current position to reducing hours, for example closing Saturday trading, then I could see your point.

Let people shop when it's mutually convenient for them and the store.

[verbatim9]

Your Neighbourhood---> Toombul Shopping Centre Demolition Begins

[verbatim9]

News.com.au--->Anthony Albanese backs new supermarket chain to increase competition with Coles, Woolworths

[verbatim9]

^^It could be Lidl?

[verbatim9]

Global food giants issues warning about high costs of manufacturing in Australia

Global food suppliers including Mars, Nestle and PepsiCo have issued stark warnings about the cost of manufacturing in Australia, citing sky-high energy bills and accelerating wages, to cast doubt on the Albanese government's Future Made in Australia aspirations.

Joined by other major grocery producers such as Procter & Gamble and Unilever, the suppliers say Australia is one of the costliest countries in which to do business.

[verbatim9]

^^This is what I have been saying a along, it's not really the supermarkets that are the cause of inflation here.

[NothingToSay]

Worked in food manufacturing a lot. Trust me when I say pepsico and other leading brands are not destitute. They are making insane margins on their products.

Supermarkets like to f**** them with very one sided supply contracts but that's mostly a problem for food waste, not profitability.

[HappyTrainGuy]

If the margin isn't coming from supermarkets it's the contracts signed with take away food outlets.

[verbatim9]

^^That's right inflation occurred across the economy and if it was a true cost of living inquiry, it would question all sectors across the economy not just targeting supermarkets.

It's just virtue signalling again being an election year here in the state.

Additionally, supermarkets are just an easy target and I hope the electorate sees through the smoke screen.