Improving rail/bus connections

[techblitz]

yeah those Strathpine routes are atrocious 
I think what we are all after is a bit more effort on the communication side....but also for bus drivers to make some leeway on certain routes.....eg: 683 leaving ontime when no train has arrived and then sits idle halfway through the route for 5mins because it runs ahead of schedule...

But definitely agree...we need better bus frequency to match up with the trains...
The northside not only faces poor frequency but the worst o.t.r for rail which compounds the problem...

[HappyTrainGuy]

Prior to the 340 buz it was faster to get to Aspley from Roma Street on the outbound express, wait a few minutes and board the inbound 340 than it was to get a single seat journey from an outbound 340. Same with the express to Strathpine , 338 outbound service, loop around Eatons Hill and down into Albany creek before you saw the same outbound 357 going in the other direction.

Once the timetable changes came in that vanished. Inbound buses depart minutes before the train arrives. Waiting for ages after you get there for the bus to go. Geebung still has the buses arriving at the same time the train does. If not merge both stops into the one outside the station at least retain the RSL stop move the one before the ped crossing to the current big wide space to have a bus stop outside the main entrance. Its only a couple hundred meters but considering a traffic light road crossing is in the middle of both stops. One has to wonder why not.

[techblitz]

https://www.facebook.com/TransLinkQLD/posts/3638167552875950

Can you find out if the 9.29am gympie north train out of Roma street was delayed on the 19th of September

I've looked into our records for delays on this day. We had no reported delays with this train, would you like me to lodge an investigation with Queensland Rail on your behalf?

It was just wired because it was late pulling into landsbrough station because we were meant to arrive at landsbrough station at 10.50am and as we were pulling in the 10.55am 615 to maroochydore was leaving the station so had to wait for the 11,33 615

[HappyTrainGuy]

IIRC late running southbound train held it up. Was back on schedule before Nambour.

[techblitz]

aaaaaand another missed rail-bus connection...

train scheduled to arr ferny grove 9.57....LATE.....arrived 10.05:30

367 scheduled departure from FG to great western(major shopping centre)...10.02am

This is one of the main reasons people give up on these feeder routes and turn to taxis/uber...

#railfail may be over but #connectionFail is far from over....we are looking at years of this crap until CRR is built where it can hopefully eliminate these small rail delays which have big impacts for people putting their trust in intermodal connections.

[ozbob]

I have raised this with TransLink a number of times. Given them ' best practise ' examples.

There has to be built into the system a way for the bus drivers to know the times, and for them to wait for pax.  Say up to 8 minutes or so.

THIS IS SO POOR TB. It makes my blood boil .. to be blunt.

Today a couple of buses north - Landsborough and Nambour were held because the QR train was behind time ( how unusual ) ..

this heartens me no end I assure you

[techblitz]

I think the most irritating thing about yesterday was that I had planned the connection the previous day after checking the timetables....checking for any trackwork etc.....
And when everything seemed good....suddenly realise without warning when arriving to the inner city stations that they have shutdown platforms for track maintenance....resulting in a backup of trains......
These inner city platform shutdowns need to be communicated....because 8+ minute delays due to backups are more than enough to mess with connections.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Most trains ran through the city on time without any delay as there are plenty of gaps. Most delays occurred due to late running services prior to them entering anywhere near the inner city area eg Beenleigh-Ferny Grove services delaying the Gold Coast-Airport service at Park Road (Saturdays Doomben services occupy P3 and freight moves along P4) or late running trains from Beenleigh delaying the departure of the P10 Roma Street-Northgate service.

If your service was indeed delayed about 8 minutes that would have been because it was delayed long enough before Roma Street that it lost its slot through the inner city to the Roma Street-Northgate service which is scheduled to depart Roma Street after the Ferny Grove service departs P9. Prior to your RS 9.22 departure the last trains through before you were .03/.09/.18 going north and the cross at .17 for the Springfield bound train. At Bowen Hills there were no crosses due to the sub to mains only operations. Lose your slot and you get shafted as you now are following the Northgate service on restricted running all the way back from the Merivale bridge due to the track reconfiguration for the P10 departure. Add the crew change at Bowen Hills and your departure went from scheduled .31 to easily .36-.37. If the mains were reopened a bit earlier you could have been delayed longer as you would have had a cross with the Springfield service. The reason for not delaying the Northgate bound service would have been network flow on effects to the following Airport and Caboolture cross going north and conflicts with the Airport and Ipswich cross.

For reference Saturdays operation was the subs were closed Roma Street-Bowen Hills with red boards with all trains using the mains. In the morning the mains were closed Bowen Hills-Northgate for track inspection work (happens every week and was reopened mid morning) with no boards. Northgate-Roma Street-Northgate services used P10 at Roma Street. P9 was used by all north bound services excluding the Northgate service which used P10. P8 was used by Ipswich and Springfield bound services. P7 was only used by Airport/Ferny Grove/Shorncliffe/Doomben services if there was a delay or operational movement eg Freight on the Normanby loop. P6 was Beenleigh/Gold Coast/Cleveland/Park Road services. P5/P4 was closed due to LPA. P3 had 4x6 car SMU220's stowed there and P2 was unused as P3/P2 was also bounded by LPA which ended just west of the Countless street bridge IIRC. The majority of the work was being undertaken at Central north of P1/P2/P3. P4 was closed under LPA. LPA at Bowen Hills ended just north of the platform.

Main point is that a small delay far away impacts someone else somewhere far away.

[techblitz]

what we need is communication HTG........if a train passing through the city when platforms are shut which imo aint minor but major....and if those random trains are at risk of running past the 'late' threshold eg: 7/8 mins.....then notifications to the travelling public are warranted so they can plan their intermodal connections that little bit more accurately.....

It doesn't matter if it only affects a small part of Saturday morning or whenever.....there have multiple posts regarding closed platforms in the city resulting in flow-on delays for trains....people need to be made aware of it,,,,,instead of finding out when its too late...

In the case of Saturday...if i had of know that my train was susceptible to a potential delay longer than my connection window for the 367....then i would have travelled to hemmant first to handle my affairs there .....then do ferny grove later.

[HappyTrainGuy]

But even if the subs were open your train would still have been delayed as it missed its slot due to late running and the Northgate service normally using P6 to turn around and transit along on the subs.

Weekend closures have next to no delays when the mains or the subs are offline as there are gaps in the timetable. During the week is another issue.

The problem with your particular service all stemmed from it's own late running prior to South Brisbane.

[techblitz]

that particular train was running no more than 2 minutes late leaving roma st iirc......i wasn't panicking over two mins because it is a 5 minute train to bus window.....then as it slowly lost the 5.5 mins between there and ferny grove....easily 2 minutes crawling between grovely and ferny grove...waiting for the preceding inbound......I knew that was it.....no 367 for me...next one in two hours.

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

29th December 2019

2020 - will we still miss the bus (and train)?

Greetings,

As 2019 draws to a close we still have not seen any real attempt to make transfers between bus and rail more reliable.

We wrote on the 19th April 2019 Please don't let me miss the bus! (copy below), this has largely been ignored.  Reform and bus network improvements have been minimal of late.  No doubt there is a lack of funding for service improvements, so it is very important that as we have low frequency bus connecting with low frequency rail that something is done in 2020 to improve the connections.  This must be a priority for 2020.

Happy New Year.

Best wishes,

Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Sent to all outlets:

19th April 2019

Please don't let me miss the bus!

Greetings,

TransLink and the transport authorities and operators like to promote the concept of an ' integrated network '.  Unfortunately, that is often far from the case in the SEQ, particularly as you move out from inner Brisbane.  Low frequency bus services and low frequency rail services means that connections are very critical.  If not made this can extend journey times by hours. There is also an apparent lack of awareness by operators that short delays have impacts on passengers and it can mean missing critical connections.

At RAIL Back On Track we have been considering ways of improving rail/bus and bus/rail connections ( https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=13470.0 ).  Our members experience and we receive feedback on the failure of connections regularly. It is really only an issue as you move out from inner Brisbane to outer areas.  When connections are not made it can mean long waits of course for the next service, particularly as we have low frequency rail and bus services in the main.

An example earlier this week.  I had to travel from Goodna, to the Brothers Leagues Club at Raceview for the Ipswich Future Forum on April 16th.  My plan of travel was to catch the 11.05am train from Goodna to Booval.  Arrive at Booval at 11.21am and then transfer to 503 bus due at 11.28am.  Note a 7 minute transfer window.

Actual timings was the train arrived at Goodna at 11.10am (5 minutes late).  A group of QPS (Queensland Police Service) and SNOs (Senior Network Officers) then proceeded to do a stationary train sweep (for fare evasion, miscreants etc.), these can take up to 5 minutes or longer.  I spoke with a SNO and said that we hope to make the 11.28am bus at Booval and as the train is already late, it looked like we might not make it.  He said they would try to make the sweep quick.  I also explained the situation to the guard.  Train departed Goodna 8 minutes late.  At each station between Goodna and Booval the guard did try to push things along. So that we arrived at Booval at 11.27am.  Bus was on time, just made it. Had the bus been a minute earlier or the train a minute later,  I would have had an hour wait for the next bus.

It is very frustrating for passengers to miss connections due to train sweeps.  I think that if a train is late, they should not do the planned stationary sweep as in many cases it will mean long waits for passengers down the line. An alternate would be board the train and do it as the train proceeds.  Then detrain and return to the original station doing another onboard sweep. More attention needs to be given to passengers who do need to make connections.  This apparent couldn't care less attitude is very disturbing to say the least.

When I was in Perth last, I noted the information displays for bus drivers at rail/bus interchanges that tell them when the trains will be arriving. This allows the bus driver to wait if the delay is only a few minutes. It can make a big difference to the passengers experience of course, who are transferring from rail to bus.

This is a photograph of such a display at Bassendean station. It shows the train arrival times and minutes late ( 15 minute frequency! ).  It is positioned so that the bus drivers can easily see it and vandal proof.



The other issue with bus to rail is that often buses are late due to traffic congestion.  We are not suggesting holding trains a few minutes, clearly out of the question in most cases, but we think that bus timetables need to be reviewed, particularly peak to give more time for buses to arrive before train due for departure. Also in some cases there is simply not enough time allowed for the transfer.

In the outer regions on the network, we think 10 minutes should be the minimum timetabled transfer window.  This provides bit of a buffer should trains or buses be a few minutes out. For example Down Nambour is currently timetabled to arrive at 9.04am (M-F).  631 bus departs at 9.09am. This is the sort of connection that needs expanding to 10 minutes.  The train can arrive technically ' on time ' at Nambour and you will still miss the bus.

These sort of relatively simple fixes can have big benefits and encourage public transport use.  Neglect these connection issues and people give up in frustration and disappointment, and add to the ever growing road congestion problems.

Best wishes,

Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

1. Helensvale
2. Landsborough
3. Kippa Ring
4. Cleveland
5. Goodna
6. Ferny Grove

How is this looking for 6 pilot sites?

Forwarded to DDG TransLink 20th March 2019 as suggestions for pilot stations for improved rail/bus connection support.

I have written to the DDG TransLink this morning inquiring as to any progress on improving rail-bus connections?

It has been nearly a year now ... 

[techblitz]

i cant believe what i have actually witnessed at caboolture this morning..

to add on to my previous post on missing the 11.01 640...

the 11.03 ex roma st pulled into the caboolure at 12.05......9 minutes late as well...
The 12.01 640 which i waited 50 mins for....was already pulling out as the train was pulling in....

Its gets worse...

On the return 640 trip back from caboolture......i witnessed the 12.03 ex roma st pulling into caboolture 10 minutes late.
The 1.01pm 640 bus had already left....

Which makes it 3 hourly 640`s in a row that left without train passengers who were hoping to connect into that bus route...

This frustration has had me asking every bus driver and every stationhand i can...

What i have found out...

the 640 used to have a 6 minute wait window...meaning they COULD wait no more than 6 minutes after scheduled departure......translink have now reduced this to 4 minutes.....if it was still 6 minutes.....the 11.01 and 12.01 bus connections would have been made..
Stationhands are apparently allowed to ask bus drivers to wait longer but paperwork has to be signed.....this did not happen on all 3 bus routes today....all of the 640`s left on the 4 minute limit...


Ozbob please pass these observations onto the DG....this is nowhere near good enough...

[ozbob]

1. Helensvale
2. Landsborough
3. Kippa Ring
4. Cleveland
5. Goodna
6. Ferny Grove

How is this looking for 6 pilot sites?

Forwarded to DDG TransLink 20th March 2019 as suggestions for pilot stations for improved rail/bus connection support.

I have written to the DDG TransLink this morning inquiring as to any progress on improving rail-bus connections?

It has been nearly a year now ... 

I have received advice from the DDG TransLink.  TransLink is working on a data feed to interchange locations, initially on fixed displays, with the possibility of connecting direct to the driver console unit of the future smart ticking equipment on board the bus.  This is a work in progress and they have indicated they will let us know when more details and timeframe for delivery are available.

At least work is ongoing.  Doesn't fix the immediate issue.  I am going to raise again with Queensland Rail the impact of trains running late, even less than 10 minutes.

TransLink need to constantly update timetables to allow more consistent connection times.

[techblitz]

with the possibility of connecting direct to the driver console unit of the future smart ticking equipment on board the bus.

excellent...

TransLink need to constantly update timetables to allow more consistent connection times.

indeed....they need to monitor their data better as well...specifically around timing points......to see how long certain bus routes are sitting idle at say the last timing point.If there is too much fat.....add it to the railway 'leeway' duration...

Two 640 drivers yesterday specifically mentioned that they regularly wait 2 - 3 mins offpeak out at bribie towards the end of the route...
2 minutes which should be added at Caboolture station...

These leeway durations need to be better communicated to passengers as well.......they could just ask the bus driver but many don't know they exist...

[ozbob]

Citicene --> Toombul Bus Interchange

Translink underwent a design analysis of the Toombul Bus Interchange with the aim to improve bus operation efficiency. Further to this delivery of an improved transport service for this important public transport node was a priority.

Located directly opposite Toombul Train Station, this location provides excellent connectivity. It acts as a mini transport node just north of Brisbane's CBD.

Associated with the reconfiguration of the interchange, integrating the landscape with the surrounding context was an important factor. This was to contribute to user amenity and establish a defined character.

A range of planning principles including complimenting the existing built form in terms of scale and composition, selection of appropriate finishes and species and identification of existing pedestrian access routes were just some of the considerations.  ...

[achiruel]

^ Does that suggest a plan to move the bus interchange to the opposite side of Sandgate Rd (i.e. adjacent Toombul Station)?

[Cazza]

Yeah. The plan and idea itself ooks good. But I'm not sure how buses will be able to get out of the interchange and head southbound. Does that mean the current bus interchange will have to remain?

[verbatim9]

Hope this goes ahead. There are currently huge delays in an out of the current bus station Relocating this interchange to the station side will make huge improvements. The shopping centre probably also wants the current bus station repurposed as customer carparks for the centre. It looks as if there will be property resumptions as well for the new bus station.

[Andrew]

I don't think this is an official plan by Translink or the government. Whilst it does solve some of the problems of the current one, the biggest glaring problem is the inability of services to easily head inbound from this interchange along Sandgate Rd. By the looks, buses would have to go through the lights, around the roundabout and then wait for the light to turn right.

Schrödinger's Bus: Early, on-time and late, simultaneously, until you see it...

[tazzer9]

Would a decent pedestrian bridge connecting the bus station (and indirectly the shopping centre) over sandgate road connecting directly with the current rail bridge be a far cheaper solution with similar outcomes?

[#Metro]

What will happen to the current bus interchange on the shopping centre side?

Simple solution is to do what they did with Yerongpilly Station - overbridge and plaza.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Appears to have been deleted.

[ozbob]

Appears to have been deleted.

Ha, it seems that when highlight something lately, it gets removed ...

[Cazza]

It also shows that we do have quite a few more lurkers around here than we may think. More the case to keep up the pressure towards the best outcomes for everyone!

[ozbob]

It also shows that we do have quite a few more lurkers around here than we may think. More the case to keep up the pressure towards the best outcomes for everyone!

Yes we do. At the bottom of the forum index page https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php it shows the online stats when page is loaded.

Presently 65 guests ( ) and members.

[verbatim9]

Yeah. The plan and idea itself ooks good. But I'm not sure how buses will be able to get out of the interchange and head southbound. Does that mean the current bus interchange will have to remain?

The intersection that services the carpark will be signalised to allow buses to turn southbound out of the proposed bus station. It would actually be quicker than the current set up where buses exit with general peak traffic from the Kmart auto exit onto Grace Street, then have to queue with regular traffic. I think they need a new bus station for layovers etc... There may not be enough space for expansion at the current bus station.  From the plans it seems that the new bus station can park 15-16 buses.

It will likely go ahead and put back up when a politician officially announces the new plans. Unfortunately all new infrastructure seems to get politicised in this country.

[Cazza]

But it's a one-way anticlockwise loop. The only way services would be able to head southbound easily is doing a U-turn from the northbound bus lane to swing around to the south again.

[HappyTrainGuy]

On top of that it's a 4 lane road including bus lane with 3 lanes on the otherside of the intersection. The ped crossing on the railway side of Sandgate road would be a bit chaotic with phasing with the bus jump for northbound buses and southbound/city bound buses wanting to turn left.

For reference the slip lane out of the shops on grace street has also been removed. It's now got a left turn arrow.

[techblitz]

1. Helensvale
2. Landsborough
3. Kippa Ring
4. Cleveland
5. Goodna
6. Ferny Grove

How is this looking for 6 pilot sites?

Forwarded to DDG TransLink 20th March 2019 as suggestions for pilot stations for improved rail/bus connection support.

I have written to the DDG TransLink this morning inquiring as to any progress on improving rail-bus connections?

It has been nearly a year now ... 

I have received advice from the DDG TransLink.  TransLink is working on a data feed to interchange locations, initially on fixed displays, with the possibility of connecting direct to the driver console unit of the future smart ticking equipment on board the bus.  This is a work in progress and they have indicated they will let us know when more details and timeframe for delivery are available.

At least work is ongoing.  Doesn't fix the immediate issue.  I am going to raise again with Queensland Rail the impact of trains running late, even less than 10 minutes.

TransLink need to constantly update timetables to allow more consistent connection times.

FYI

Landsborough station now has 3 e-paper screens installed at the bus stops which indicate 'next train in *** mins'.
They have been installed for two weeks.
Couldn't get pictures because was too busy discussing the issues with them with the station master.
They are already confusing people as the screens don't indicate the direction of the next train or the desitination.
One can only assume they have skimped on screen space to allow bigger font sizes for the bus drivers to read.

[ozbob]

Thanks for the update TB.  Some progress!   

[techblitz]

One of the glaring issues we noticed was 3 screens all displaying different train arrival spans 
Full confidence the stationmaster will eventually relay the issues to translink.......still early days yet.

[Gazza]

This has turned up at the Coomera bus interchange.
It doesn't tell you which direction said train is heading (the sign obviously has information for both, but they are just listing them chronologically)
A similar system has been in place in Perth for decades.

[Gazza]

In context:

[ozbob]

Thanks Gazza.  It seems there is a roll out now of these now.  See earlier post re Landsborough ( ^).

[verbatim9]

Looks pretty cool. They might be testing these new low voltage PIDs. They are meant to be rolling out the ePaper PIDs at stops and stations statewide this year as well.

[SurfRail]

There was one at Varsity Lakes when I last passed through 2 weeks ago, and I understand there are some others floating around (eg Kippa-Ring).

They seem to be pointless as set up, although that could easily be fixed.

[verbatim9]

There was one at Varsity Lakes when I last passed through 2 weeks ago, and I understand there are some others floating around (eg Kippa-Ring).

They seem to be pointless as set up, although that could easily be fixed.

If limited space to display extra info? They could display next train 15mins North, South, East or West. People would understand that.

[Cazza]

https://translink.com.au/updates/48186

Ah, yes due to a trains leaving earlier/arriving later and no real care for those connecting to/from buses, the only advice that has been given is "if you miss your bus service, please see station staff for assistance". And by that, they mean go abuse an innocent worker peacefully doing their job because we have made an illogical decision to change the train times without really caring of all the hourly bus services that then don't connect with train and give people less than a weeks notice so commuters will be rocking up to non-existent connecting buses or trains and then the station staff having to call a cab to get people to their destination because the next 722 to Coomera departs in 48 minutes. Nice.

It's almost like it would have been a better idea to keep the GC line departure/arrivals times the same but have the trains arrive into the CBD/Airport later and depart earlier. Off-peak, Airport-bound trains depart Central on the :01 and :31, with the other train slots taken up on the subs on the :11 (FG), :13 (Shorncliffe), :23 (Doomben), :26 (FG), 28 (Northgate) and repeat. I'm not sure how long it takes via Tennyson instead of via South Bank, but there are plenty of spare time slots for the Airport bound train to fit into. During peaks, as trains run every 2-3 mins, it does turn into a bit of a fend for yourself situation anyway as soon as one train runs slightly late. There do appear to be some 5 min gaps of services on the subs which can be used to absorb any late running domino effects.

In the GC direction, you have trains leaving Central on the :02 (Cannon Hill), :04 (Beenleigh), :17 (Cleveland), :19 (Coopers Plains), :22 (Roma St- from Doomben) and :29 Gold Coast. Due to the 3 via South Bank services leaving within 5 mins of each other, then having no train for another 13 mins, there is plenty of time for the GC bound train to leave earlier than current. There are plenty of weird gaps in the PM peak for a differing departure time for GC trains.

But hey, that idea took me a really long time to think of and actually really hurt my brain in the process so I wouldn't recommend anyone try.