Improving rail/bus connections

[ozbob]

A problem on our network is the poor general frequency ( rail and bus ) and the consequent problems of rail/bus connections.  It is very frustrating for passengers to be on a train running a few minutes late to see their intended bus departing as they are arriving at the rail station.  This can mean long waits.

When I visited Perth I noted on the Transperth network that many of the rail stations with bus interchange had timers which indicated the arrival time of trains.  This allows the bus driver to make a decision as to whether to wait or not for incoming passengers.

This is a photograph of a timer at Bassendean station.  It shows the train arrival times and minutes late ( 15 minute frequency! )



I think we should start an advocacy campaign to see if this problem can be improved on the SEQ network.

In the first instance I will write to TransLink to seek information as to what is done at present to better improve connections ( it appears that very little is done judging by the constant complaints ).

[techblitz]

I think first point of call is to eliminate every  rail - bus connection gap 6 minutes and under......move towards something between 7 mins off-peak and 10 mins peak....QR a lot of the time are exempt from blame because they ran on-time....even if the train came in 6 mins late...

case in point the 524.....train o/b is scheduled to arrive at 3.23 and bus due to depart 3.25....9 times out of the large amount of kids have to sprint off that train and risk injury just to make the bus.....2 min connection gap is ridiculous and needs to be eliminated..

[ozbob]

^ thanks TB. Good points.   I am thinking of writing to TL today or tomorrow on this.

[ozbob]

Correspondence sent to TransLink:

24th February 2019

Bus rail connections

Dear Matt,

We have been considering ways of improving rail/bus and bus/rail connections.  Our members experience and we receive feedback on the failure of connections regularly. It is really only an issue as you move out from inner Brisbane to outer areas.  When connections are not made it can mean long waits of course for the next service, particularly as we have low frequency rail and bus services in the main.

When I was in Perth last, I noted the information displays for bus drivers at rail/bus interchanges that tell them when the trains will be arriving. This allows the bus driver to wait if the delay is only a few minutes. It can make a big difference to the passengers experience of course, who are transferring from rail to bus.

This is a photograph of a display at Bassendean station. It shows the train arrival times and minutes late ( 15 minute frequency! ).  It is positioned so that the bus drivers can easily see it and vandal proof.



The other issue with bus to rail is that often buses are late.  We are not suggesting holding trains a few minutes, clearly out of the question in most cases, but we think that bus timetables need to be reviewed, particularly peak to give more time for buses to arrive before train due for departure. Also in some cases there is simply not enough time allowed for the transfer.

With this short background we are interested in knowing what is being done officially to improve bus/rail and rail/bus connections?  Will the new payment system (Next Generation Ticketing) allow for some on-board real time arrival information for bus drivers in an enhanced way? It is possible now but complicated for drivers who can use the TransLink app.  The approach used in Perth is simple but extremely effective.

Thanks.

Regards

Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[techblitz]

just jumped off a 103 that was due at darra 11.47 but turned up a 11.52 where Redcliffe train was departing....when normally it is a 5 min connection......driver decided to go slow because he was chatting to the front passenger....with absolutely no regard to the bus connection he was supposed to make....if he had of been going normal pace the bus would have made it by a couple of minutes at least...
Some bus drivers out there just dont take these connections seriously enough....

[ozbob]

Yo, probably need timetabled connections of around 10 minutes.  At least that gives some leeway, and on the odd occasion when you might have to wait a few more minutes, much better to be sure of the connections.  But TransLink needs to get out on the roads and look at actual running times cf. to timetabled run times.  There seems a lot of variation at present, and getting worse as traffic spirals.   It is kind of interesting that Transperth takes this very seriously and their rail frequency is generally much better. More feeder buses too.  We seem a long way from better rail and bus frequencies sadly in SEQ.  So they must make a serious attempt to improve the connections.  If it means complete timetable rewrites so be it.   

[James]

just jumped off a 103 that was due at darra 11.47 but turned up a 11.52 where Redcliffe train was departing....when normally it is a 5 min connection......driver decided to go slow because he was chatting to the front passenger....with absolutely no regard to the bus connection he was supposed to make....if he had of been going normal pace the bus would have made it by a couple of minutes at least...
Some bus drivers out there just dont take these connections seriously enough....

Agree, not the first time I have heard of / experienced things like this. Probably has to be the most infuriating missed connection.

There is no reason why a 5-minute connection window shouldn't be doable, particularly on shorter routes or routes feeding into frequent PT. The 103 takes 16 minutes to go Inala -> Darra and 12 minutes to go Darra -> Mt Ommaney. Big waiting windows put people off feeder buses.

[ozbob]

Yes, the inner routes 5 to 6 minutes should be enough, providing the bus run times are right.

But out in the sticks, where frequency is very poor.  There needs to be more connection time.

Example: Down Nambour timetabled to arrive at 9.04am (M-F).  631 bus departs at 9.09am.

This is the sort of connection that needs expanding to 10 minutes.  The train can arrive technically ' on time ' and you will still miss the bus.

And having the driver being able to monitor the train arrival times would also assist greatly.  I have seen a number of complaints over the years of this as an example of a failed connection, often only by a minute or two, the next 631 bus is 84 minutes on ..

( Footnote - on Friday I am heading up to Cooroy, plan to catch the 9.09am 631 bus at Nambour.  I cannot trust that the connection will be made so I am going to travel on the earlier down Nambour, arrives at 8.02am. )

[circleroute]

I agree that it is infuriating for passengers missing connections (bus-train/train-bus) - especially when the wait for the next service is longer than 10 or 15 minutes.
Mention was made of bus drivers at Transperth stations "deciding" whether or not to wait if the train is seen as running late on the train arrival indicator (for buses, not for passengers).
There's a bit more to it than a driver "deciding" any such thing - he or she must wait for a late train arrival up to the train being six minutes late running. The driver must also alert the depot coordinator of a late departure from the station due to the late running of a train.
Yes - it's often the case (especially around peak hours) that a bus will be timetabled to depart at exactly the time a train is arriving - which is misunderstood by upset passengers watching the rear of a bus leaving as they walk from their train. The bus that is departing at the same time as an arriving train is actually (or usually) scheduled to be the service that connected with the train that arrived 5 minutes prior, and the next bus connector is already moving to the bus stand as the scheduled connector for that train that has just arrived (with the passengers thinking evil thoughts of the driver they can see departing). Hope that makes sense.

[circleroute]

Mention has been made of possibility of trains waiting for buses at bus/train interchanges. On the Transperth system, trains NEVER wait for bus connections no matter what - it just doesn't happen. I don't think trains would (or even "could") wait for bus connections at any metropolitan station in the country. If anyone knows of such a thing happening I'd be interested to know of that.

[ozbob]

Mention has been made of possibility of trains waiting for buses at bus/train interchanges. On the Transperth system, trains NEVER wait for bus connections no matter what - it just doesn't happen. I don't think trains would (or even "could") wait for bus connections at any metropolitan station in the country. If anyone knows of such a thing happening I'd be interested to know of that.

Thanks for your comments circleroute, particularly re the wait times for the bus if train is late.  Yes, trains cannot normally be held for bus connections, particularly metropolitan nor would we expect them to be.  It has happened occasionally in SEQ on the Sunshine Coast line at Landsborough.  There used to the ability for bus to communicate to rail at Landsborough and if the bus was only a few minutes late sometimes trains would wait. (train frequency can be as bad as 90 minutes so you can imagine the issue).  I understand the ability for local liaison has now been lost due to a change in comms platforms.  In SEQ train frequency is poor, and bus often worse.  So it is a very important issue for SEQ rail/bus connections.  6 minutes is a reasonable wait time, but in SEQ bus drivers don't know how late the train might be.  So the Transperth setup is impressive for us.

[James]

Mention has been made of possibility of trains waiting for buses at bus/train interchanges. On the Transperth system, trains NEVER wait for bus connections no matter what - it just doesn't happen. I don't think trains would (or even "could") wait for bus connections at any metropolitan station in the country. If anyone knows of such a thing happening I'd be interested to know of that.

They don't need to wait most of the time in Perth because trains are running every 15 minutes or better. In Brisbane it is a serious matter, particularly for the Sunny Coast and out at Rosewood, where missed connections mean 60+ minute waits.

I think there was a time when QR operated on their own and had Railbuses which were guaranteed to meet certain trains and were ticketed into the QR network. That is long ago now though.

[ozbob]

Queensland Times 7th March 2019 page 5

Commuters are fed up

[ozbob]

Been no response to this correspondence.

Really is a ramshackle outfit, with pissweak political leadership.

Time to start dancing ..

Unfortunately l have been a bit distracted these past weeks as I am coping with and managing some significant family health issues.

When the going gets tough, the tough get going ...

💂

Correspondence sent to TransLink:

24th February 2019

Bus rail connections

Dear Matt,

We have been considering ways of improving rail/bus and bus/rail connections.  Our members experience and we receive feedback on the failure of connections regularly. It is really only an issue as you move out from inner Brisbane to outer areas.  When connections are not made it can mean long waits of course for the next service, particularly as we have low frequency rail and bus services in the main.

When I was in Perth last, I noted the information displays for bus drivers at rail/bus interchanges that tell them when the trains will be arriving. This allows the bus driver to wait if the delay is only a few minutes. It can make a big difference to the passengers experience of course, who are transferring from rail to bus.

This is a photograph of a display at Bassendean station. It shows the train arrival times and minutes late ( 15 minute frequency! ).  It is positioned so that the bus drivers can easily see it and vandal proof.



The other issue with bus to rail is that often buses are late.  We are not suggesting holding trains a few minutes, clearly out of the question in most cases, but we think that bus timetables need to be reviewed, particularly peak to give more time for buses to arrive before train due for departure. Also in some cases there is simply not enough time allowed for the transfer.

With this short background we are interested in knowing what is being done officially to improve bus/rail and rail/bus connections?  Will the new payment system (Next Generation Ticketing) allow for some on-board real time arrival information for bus drivers in an enhanced way? It is possible now but complicated for drivers who can use the TransLink app.  The approach used in Perth is simple but extremely effective.

Thanks.

Regards

Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

Some good news.  Received some correspondence from the DDG of TransLink in response to my email on the 24th February after I sent a follow up today.   

He agrees that this an important issue.  Two processes underway which will provide some improvement, the return to full service rail timetable (which provides a solid base to work from) and bus timetable optimisation work underway with SEQ bus operators as part of the new contracts.

They are looking at initially around 6 interchange locations, to improve signage and real time information for bus connections about the status of rail services.  This will be complicated with the new ticketing system on the way, which will include improved real time information.  None the less they are going to do something.

If anyone has ideas about what would be good stations for the initial pilot work please list here.

I suggested Landsborough, Nambour and possibly Goodna & Redbank.  I am sure you will have more.  The DDG did indicate that there is some attempt at Landsborough and Nambour for RMC (Rail Management Centre) to work with bus control to manage scheduled impacts. 

[Cazza]

I think a few to select from could be Mitchelton or Ferny Grove, Sandgate, maybe Cleveland and probably most stations east of Kippa Ring and south of Beenleigh could work.

Stations like Altandi, Toowong, Indro and to some extent Caboolture would be good in the near future but there are so many services passing/terminating (with most at high frequencies) that it probably wouldn't be a high priority compared to others.

[techblitz]

Something positive ive noticed translink do over the last month is they are now tweeting each delay with a reason for the 605/615`s @ landsborough....ive counted at least ten of these tweets so far since they first started it...

eg:

https://twitter.com/TransLinkSEQ/status/1106713209459888129

https://twitter.com/TransLinkSEQ/status/1106713842493485056

[ozbob]

 

Good, buses are being held to allow pax to make the connection, direct evidence.  This is most important in this situation.

DDG did say RMC was liaising with bus control for connections at Landsborough, and Nambour too apparently.

A step in the right direction ..

[James]

I think it needs to be emphasised for stations where a connection is advertised.

Toowong wouldn't be one, as AFAIK there are no buses which formally "connect" to trains at Toowong - which is fortunate, otherwise you'd be holding every 411 and 412, as they leave 1 & 2 minutes after each train arrives.

If I could pick six places, I would choose:
1. Helensvale - while it has frequent services like the 704 and TX7, it also has not-so-frequent services like the 715 and 718.
2. Landsborough - common sense.
3. Petrie - there are a lot of low-frequency feeder buses going into Petrie, better connections may also ease Park n Ride issues here.
4. Sandgate - As for Petrie.
5. Goodna - Numerous buses going from here, demonstrated reliability issues with Westside over there.
6. Ferny Grove - low frequency low-span buses which need use + a strained park and ride which could do with some more people using the bus instead.

[Cazza]

3. Petrie - there are a lot of low-frequency feeder buses going into Petrie, better connections may also ease Park n Ride issues here.

That all changed when the MBRL came online: now there's only the 680 (Redcliffe-Chermside) and 686 (Petrie Loop) that stop at Petrie Station. Something like Mango Hill (main station for North Lakes) or Kippa Ring (plenty of feeder buses for the Redcliffe Peninsula) would be better.

https://translink.com.au/sites/default/files/assets/resources/plan-your-journey/maps/170601-moreton-bay-network.pdf

[ozbob]

Thanks for the station suggestions everyone.  TransLink are happy to receive our suggestions.

So keep thinking what would be good pilot sites. 

[ozbob]

1. Helensvale
2. Landsborough
3. Kippa Ring
4. Cleveland
5. Goodna
6. Ferny Grove

How is this looking for 6 pilot sites?

[ozbob]

If no further comment/suggestions I will forward the above to TransLink tomorrow.   

[timh]

How about Varsity lakes? Just completed a trip to and from Melbourne via OOL. The 760 bus connects many passengers from Varsity Lakes station to the airport (I took this bus and saw good patronage for those connexting at Vasity Lakes, including international tourists) . Could be worth adding to the list?

[SurfRail]

The problem with the 760 is that it is heavily prone to congestion on the M1.  (The 765 isn't much better at busier times despite not touching the M1.)  If you were holding trains, you would be holding them non-stop from the first station.

[techblitz]

currently attempting to connect from a gold coast train to a 757 which is currently coming into altandi station 7 mins late
The problem is there is only a 6 minute connection window at varsity lakes for the 757...
hour wait for next bus.....hopefully this train can make up a couple of minutes...

edit: train made up 3mins. So made the bus by a couple of mins. 

[ozbob]

 

[ozbob]

1. Helensvale
2. Landsborough
3. Kippa Ring
4. Cleveland
5. Goodna
6. Ferny Grove

How is this looking for 6 pilot sites?

Forwarded to DDG TransLink 20th March 2019 as suggestions for pilot stations for improved rail/bus connection support.

[ozbob]

Living on the edge out west ...   

Mission:  To use rail/bus and bus/rail to go from and back to Goodna, to attend Ipswich Future Forum at Brothers League Club Raceview.

Plan:  Catch the 11.05am train from Goodna to Booval.  Arrive at Booval at 11.21 and then transfer to 503 bus due at 11.28.

Actual:  Train arrived at Goodna at 11.10am (5 minutes late).  A group of QPS and SNOs then proceeded to do a train sweep (fare evasion, miscreants etc.).  I spoke with a SNO and said that we hope to make the 11.28am bus at Booval and as the train is already late, it looked like we might not make it.  He said they would make the sweep quick.  I also explained the situation to the guard. 

Train departed Goodna 8 minutes late.  At each station between Goodna and Booval the guard did try to push things along. So that we arrived at Booval at 11.27am.  Bus was on time, just made it.

Return, 503 bus due at 2.26pm, arrived at 2.29 pm.  Got to Booval station at 2.41pm.  Train was on time at 2.42pm (NGR 754)  and again just made it (next train 3.31pm).



It is very frustrating for passengers to miss connections due to train sweeps.  I think that if a train is late, they should not do the planned sweep as in many cases it will mean long waits for passengers down the line ..

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

19th April 2019

Please don't let me miss the bus!

Greetings,

TransLink and the transport authorities and operators like to promote the concept of an ' integrated network '.  Unfortunately, that is often far from the case in the SEQ, particularly as you move out from inner Brisbane.  Low frequency bus services and low frequency rail services means that connections are very critical.  If not made this can extend journey times by hours. There is also an apparent lack of awareness by operators that short delays have impacts on passengers and it can mean missing critical connections.

At RAIL Back On Track we have been considering ways of improving rail/bus and bus/rail connections ( https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=13470.0 ).  Our members experience and we receive feedback on the failure of connections regularly. It is really only an issue as you move out from inner Brisbane to outer areas.  When connections are not made it can mean long waits of course for the next service, particularly as we have low frequency rail and bus services in the main.

An example earlier this week.  I had to travel from Goodna, to the Brothers Leagues Club at Raceview for the Ipswich Future Forum on April 16th.  My plan of travel was to catch the 11.05am train from Goodna to Booval.  Arrive at Booval at 11.21am and then transfer to 503 bus due at 11.28am.  Note a 7 minute transfer window.

Actual timings was the train arrived at Goodna at 11.10am (5 minutes late).  A group of QPS (Queensland Police Service) and SNOs (Senior Network Officers) then proceeded to do a stationary train sweep (for fare evasion, miscreants etc.), these can take up to 5 minutes or longer.  I spoke with a SNO and said that we hope to make the 11.28am bus at Booval and as the train is already late, it looked like we might not make it.  He said they would try to make the sweep quick.  I also explained the situation to the guard.  Train departed Goodna 8 minutes late.  At each station between Goodna and Booval the guard did try to push things along. So that we arrived at Booval at 11.27am.  Bus was on time, just made it. Had the bus been a minute earlier or the train a minute later,  I would have had an hour wait for the next bus.

It is very frustrating for passengers to miss connections due to train sweeps.  I think that if a train is late, they should not do the planned stationary sweep as in many cases it will mean long waits for passengers down the line. An alternate would be board the train and do it as the train proceeds.  Then detrain and return to the original station doing another onboard sweep. More attention needs to be given to passengers who do need to make connections.  This apparent couldn't care less attitude is very disturbing to say the least.

When I was in Perth last, I noted the information displays for bus drivers at rail/bus interchanges that tell them when the trains will be arriving. This allows the bus driver to wait if the delay is only a few minutes. It can make a big difference to the passengers experience of course, who are transferring from rail to bus.

This is a photograph of such a display at Bassendean station. It shows the train arrival times and minutes late ( 15 minute frequency! ).  It is positioned so that the bus drivers can easily see it and vandal proof.



The other issue with bus to rail is that often buses are late due to traffic congestion.  We are not suggesting holding trains a few minutes, clearly out of the question in most cases, but we think that bus timetables need to be reviewed, particularly peak to give more time for buses to arrive before train due for departure. Also in some cases there is simply not enough time allowed for the transfer.

In the outer regions on the network, we think 10 minutes should be the minimum timetabled transfer window.  This provides bit of a buffer should trains or buses be a few minutes out. For example Down Nambour is currently timetabled to arrive at 9.04am (M-F).  631 bus departs at 9.09am. This is the sort of connection that needs expanding to 10 minutes.  The train can arrive technically ' on time ' at Nambour and you will still miss the bus.

These sort of relatively simple fixes can have big benefits and encourage public transport use.  Neglect these connection issues and people give up in frustration and disappointment, and add to the ever growing road congestion problems.

Best wishes,

Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

Facebook ..

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1118971047997366272

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1119006750630219776

[ozbob]

A comment on our facebook post:

https://www.facebook.com/RAILBackOnTrack/posts/2572201316127373?comment_id=2572298466117658

Bob one big issue that seems to be forgotten by everyone except those affected is bus to ferry transfers at Redland Bay Marina. I travel from Russell Island to Victoria Point once a fortnight to go shopping with my wife. It's very rare that any sort of problem is encountered going TO Victoria Point it is coming BACK that is troublesome. Transdev route 250 from Carindale to Redlands Marina is constantly late causing missed ferry connections to the Bay Islands, often causing a 45 minute wait for the next ferry. Ferry crews are not blameless either, they can see a bus coming but still insist on an on time departure, leaving anything up to 30 passengers stranded. It is pointless complaining to Translink they just treat us like old whinging geriatrics.

Ferry/bus connections are important too.

[ozbob]

Another comment https://www.facebook.com/RAILBackOnTrack/posts/2572201316127373?comment_id=2572802686067236

The rail/bus connection from Sandgate to Redcliffe is often non-existent if the train is running late. The lack of any action/caring to hold the bus if this occurs on the part of the Sandgate station attendant(s) and/or the hornibrook bus driver is appalling.
I missed the last bus from Sandgate one night because of a late train and had to uber home at a cost of around $25. This is not acceptable behaviour by hornibrook buses or QR

[ozbob]

Letter to the Editor Queensland Times 22nd April 2019 page 13

It's time transport boffins made some connections

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/7NewsBrisbane/status/1153583563205251073

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1153768413094825984

[techblitz]

https://www.facebook.com/TransLinkQLD/posts/3470643299628377

TransLink- you need to get your act together. Since school went back last week my son has been late more often than not due to your incompetency to get your bus and train times right. Today, he was there well before the train time... the train came but then it was DELAYED which made him and a whole bunch of other kids that go to his school not get to the stop they get off at until AFTER the last school buses have gone. He has just rang me now and him and so many other kids are stranded at the station. He's now made the decision with other friends to walk to the tram and get to school the most inconvenient way that actually takes much longer. This is ridiculous. You have so many kids that rely on the transport system to get them to and from school. When this stuff happens there should be communication between the trains and buses to advise that trains have been delayed and that school kids will still need a bus TO GET THEM TO SCHOOL! Seriously, do something about it. Because the fact he's been late more these last two weeks due to your transport system than he has the whole year, it's really just a bit bloody stupid. And just for the record I know he's not lying to me, I can see where he is at all times. Get your act together GOLD COAST TRAINS AND BUSES

[HappyTrainGuy]

Direct communication is never going to occur unfortunately given the complexities around modern transport that is seq. An appropriate transport network is the answer. Especially when most buses into Chermside is hourly. Or in the case of Strathpine-Lawnton hourly during peak hour - 2 hours on a Saturday if you are waiting for the 338 to Eatons Hill/Albany Creek. Might aswell go to the city and get a 357 outbound