SEQ People Mass Movement Study - Council of Mayors (SEQ)

[SurfRail]

Replace "People" with "Car" in the title, that's clearly the end game here, otherwise roads would not be getting anything more than a brief look in. 

[achiruel]

It does seem entirely too car-focused, although I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of replacing the Riverside Expressway with a Woolloongabba-Toowong tunnel.

IMO the list of projects needs to be more rail-focused and especially get rid of moronic ideas like a second M1.

[verbatim9]

Just going through the Seq Mayors Mass Movement Study on faster rail.

https://seqmayors.qld.gov.au/i...eAXx7NnEvTNx1e7G8x/faster-rail

Didnt realise that it will terminate at Gold Coast Hospital. So the idea will be changing to a regular train if you need to go further South? The same being on the Sunshine Coast going further North? I do like the idea of connecting all three airports Mcy, Bne and Ool together with rail. Better sooner than later!

What is Faster Rail in the SEQ Context?

"Faster Rail" supports the 45 minute Regional Connectivity Vision for SEQ. The "Faster Rail" system concept will deliver services with travel times of 45 minute or less between Brisbane – Sunshine Coast (Maroochydore) via Moreton Bay Region, Brisbane – Gold Coast (Southport at the Gold Coast University Hospital) via Logan, Brisbane – Ipswich; and from Brisbane – the base of Toowoomba.
The Faster Rail concept between Brisbane and the Sunshine Coast (North Coast Connect) is currently subject to a business case process in response to the Federal Government's request for proposals for "Faster Rail" schemes as part of a market-led proposal process. This business case will be complete in 2019.
The Faster Rail system would leverage off both current and future investments such as the Cross River Rail, Brisbane Metro, Gold Coast Light Rail and Sunshine Coast Light Rail projects, whereby the Faster Rail concept will connect with the Gold Coast Light Rail and Sunshine Coast Light Rail in the Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast respectively providing for direct transfer of passengers to the local urban rail systems in these centres; and it will leverage the Cross River Rail line through Brisbane to minimise travel times and will utilise existing corridors and infrastructure (including track and stations) where appropriate to limit costs. All of these projects are included in the Transport Strategy within the Base Scenario.
The Faster Rail system will provide a higher speed mass transit service connecting the major centres with limited stops at major activity centres only. The maximum operating speed is anticipated to be between 200 to 250km/h with an average running speed up to about 150-160km/h (including dwell time allowance).
The intent for this system is for it to be similar to those systems currently operating in Europe, such as the Réseau Express Régional in France (connects regional centres to Paris), the InterCity in the United Kingdom (connects regional centres across the UK as well as London) and the InterCity Express in Germany (connects city centres). The SEQ "faster rail" system is not proposed to be a top tier High Speed Rail (HSR) with top speeds of 350km/h plus.
The Faster Rail train type may, for example, deliver a 500+ seat capacity with a total train length of up to 200m for a 6 car-set, or a dual 6-car set of about 400m.
Various "classes" of passenger service levels could be considered for a service of this nature. For example, the service could provide an enhanced level of comfort including tables between rows of seats, different standards of seat quality and leg room variations could be available. International Faster Rail services demonstrate that an Economy, First Class and Business Class fare structure are typical. The fare structure and ticketing system would enable seamless transfers between the Faster Rail service and the urban passenger rail, bus and light rail networks.
To be consistent with the other existing rail network elements, the track could be narrow gauge with the motive power provided through electrification. Further analysis and planning is required to define the actual running standard (including track gauge) and rolling stock type, some of which will be addressed in the North Coast Connect business case when completed in 2019.
The stopping and service patterns for Faster Rail will be designed to maximise value-capture at stations. Alternative funding model outcomes (market led proposals and / or other Public Private Partnership structures) for the infrastructure and services would also be considered.

The Value and Benefits of Faster Rail

The population and employment that would be serviced by Faster Rail and the resulting stronger regional connectivity is demonstrated in Figure 4‑16.
The relative speed difference between the existing urban rail, the private vehicle and faster rail is highlighted in Figure 4‑17. The SEQ Faster Rail system will reduce travel times by half when compared to the existing Citytrain service or travel by private vehicle.
Faster Rail services will also provide travel time reliability whereby services will not be impacted by road congestion or other external factors like vehicle accidents and road works, making the service appealing compared to private vehicle use.
Faster Rail will also seemingly shrink the SEQ region, whereby:

Maroochydore to Brisbane will be the same as travelling from North Lakes in 2018

Southport to Brisbane will be the same as travelling from Beenleigh

Ipswich Brisbane will be the same as travelling from Chelmer to Brisbane (see Figure 4‑18).

[Arnz]

^

To go even more foamy, extending the BNE Airport line to reconnect to the NCL/Cab/Redcliffe/SCL around Bald Hills (with the interchange point at Boondall) would connect all 3 airports together in the one train. 

Probably would give the LCC ideas.  To connect to your next flight, please catch the "Sunshine Coast Airport" train at Brisbane Airport 

[verbatim9]

^

To go even more foamy, extending the BNE Airport line to reconnect to the NCL/Cab/Redcliffe/SCL around Bald Hills (with the interchange point at Boondall) would connect all 3 airports together in the one train. 

Probably would give the LCC ideas.  To connect to your next flight, please catch the "Sunshine Coast Airport" train at Brisbane Airport 

^^Why do you think it's so surreal connecting all three airports together by train? It's done in London. It may occur that if you have an international flight the train connection to Bne would be ideal from either OOL and Mcy. OOL and Mcy will never have as many domestic or international connections to what Bne will have.

^^It doesn't take long to interchange at Eagle Junction anyway. I don't think the line could loop up North due to the second runway. I guess it could just South of the international terminal if a plan was there to do it?

[Arnz]

^

To go even more foamy, extending the BNE Airport line to reconnect to the NCL/Cab/Redcliffe/SCL around Bald Hills (with the interchange point at Boondall) would connect all 3 airports together in the one train. 

Probably would give the LCC ideas.  To connect to your next flight, please catch the "Sunshine Coast Airport" train at Brisbane Airport 

^^Why do you think it's so surreal connecting all three airports together by train? It's done in London. It may occur that if you have an international flight the train connection to Bne would be ideal from either OOL and Mcy. OOL and Mcy will never have as many domestic or international connections to what Bne will have.

^^It doesn't take long to interchange at Eagle Junction anyway. I don't think the line could loop up North due to the second runway. I guess it could just South of the international terminal if a plan was there to do it?

A BNE Airport extension to connect to the northern lines can actually dip underground and underneath the 2nd runway.  Would cost billions, but would still connect the 3 airports together. 

[verbatim9]

^

To go even more foamy, extending the BNE Airport line to reconnect to the NCL/Cab/Redcliffe/SCL around Bald Hills (with the interchange point at Boondall) would connect all 3 airports together in the one train. 

Probably would give the LCC ideas.  To connect to your next flight, please catch the "Sunshine Coast Airport" train at Brisbane Airport 

^^Why do you think it's so surreal connecting all three airports together by train? It's done in London. It may occur that if you have an international flight the train connection to Bne would be ideal from either OOL and Mcy. OOL and Mcy will never have as many domestic or international connections to what Bne will have.

^^It doesn't take long to interchange at Eagle Junction anyway. I don't think the line could loop up North due to the second runway. I guess it could just South of the international terminal if a plan was there to do it?

A BNE Airport extension back up north can actually dip underground and underneath the 2nd runway.  Would cost billions, but would still connect the 3 airports together. 

What's the point then? I think you are just ridiculing the objective of connecting three airports together by rail, when one would think any public transport advocate would get behind.

[verbatim9]

OOL should be on the priority list to connect to the train  network. It would help so many South Brisbane, Logan and North Gold Coast residents out, when wanting to catch flights from OOL. It would also give an alternative for people wanting to connect to International flights from BNE or vice versa instead of catching a coach.

^^Random people have engaged in conversation with me on this topic in the real world, by no surprise.

[Arnz]

^

To go even more foamy, extending the BNE Airport line to reconnect to the NCL/Cab/Redcliffe/SCL around Bald Hills (with the interchange point at Boondall) would connect all 3 airports together in the one train. 

Probably would give the LCC ideas.  To connect to your next flight, please catch the "Sunshine Coast Airport" train at Brisbane Airport 

^^Why do you think it's so surreal connecting all three airports together by train? It's done in London. It may occur that if you have an international flight the train connection to Bne would be ideal from either OOL and Mcy. OOL and Mcy will never have as many domestic or international connections to what Bne will have.

^^It doesn't take long to interchange at Eagle Junction anyway. I don't think the line could loop up North due to the second runway. I guess it could just South of the international terminal if a plan was there to do it?

A BNE Airport extension back up north can actually dip underground and underneath the 2nd runway.  Would cost billions, but would still connect the 3 airports together. 

What's the point then? I think you are just ridiculing the objective of connecting three airports together by rail, when one would think any public transport advocate would get behind.

If it was feasible within cost, I'm sure the majority, including well learned PT advocates  would get behind it.   Problem is that connecting the 3 Airports by Rail is up there with the Hyperloop Proposal from Coolangatta to Bundaberg via Brisbane by a cost perspective.

BNE-OOL is the feasible part in the longer term, say 2030.   A shame the proposed OOL heavy rail terminus loops back into the terminal, ruling out a NSW extension because the state governments don't want to co-operate (e.g NSW doesn't want to fund Qld PT and vice-versa).

[#Metro]

There should be no loop.

Funny how in Europe, trains run across national borders easily, but here, it's " too hard ".

[Arnz]

There should be no loop.

Funny how in Europe, trains run across national borders easily, but here, it's " too hard ".

State pride doesn't help matters either.  If it wasn't for the ARTC run (Fed government owned) standard gauge rail corridors there wouldn't be an XPT into Brisbane or Melbourne.

[#Metro]

If a QR train enters NSW under service contract with NSW Govt with QR crew, does that mean that portion of the journey past the state border is "privatised"?

[verbatim9]

.

A BNE Airport extension back up north can actually dip underground and underneath the 2nd runway.  Would cost billions, but would still connect the 3 airports together. 

If it was feasible within cost, I'm sure the majority, including well learned PT advocates  would get behind it.   Problem is that connecting the 3 Airports by Rail is up there with the Hyperloop Proposal from Coolangatta to Bundaberg via Brisbane by a cost perspective.

^^Thats just your personal opinion and once again you are talking for others when others haven't stated.

[Arnz]

^^Thats just your personal opinion and once again you are talking for others when others haven't stated.

The Brisbane Airport "extension" has also been posted as a personal suggestion previously that hasn't seen the light of day as a serious proposal.  Much like the Maglev to Doomben.  If it was a serious proposal, it would've been in the media by now.

[verbatim9]

^^Thats just your personal opinion and once again you are talking for others when others haven't stated.

The Brisbane Airport "extension" has also been posted as a personal suggestion previously that hasn't seen the light of day as a serious proposal.  Much like the Maglev to Doomben.  If it was a serious proposal, it would've been in the media by now.

So you implying that the Transport experts are the media and what ever hits the media becomes status quo?

Maglev and Hyperloop proposals have hit the media in the past. The Seq Mayor's Movement study was also in the media but not properly dissected. Rapid rail was mentioned  to and from the coasts as well as well as Toowoomba.

[Arnz]

^^Thats just your personal opinion and once again you are talking for others when others haven't stated.

The Brisbane Airport "extension" has also been posted as a personal suggestion previously that hasn't seen the light of day as a serious proposal.  Much like the Maglev to Doomben.  If it was a serious proposal, it would've been in the media by now.

So you implying that the Transport experts are the media and what ever hits the media becomes status quo?

Maglev and Hyperloop proposals have hit the media in the past. The Seq Mayor's Movement study was also in the media but not properly dissected. Rapid rail was mentioned  to and from the coasts as well as well as Toowoomba.

If it was taken as a "serious" proposal by the authorities, even if the proposals are from lobby groups such as RBot or the PTA in Victoria.  Both groups have had proposals (low hanging fruit and route changes) over the years thoroughly looked at seriously by the respective state authorities.

66+109 merger is one example that RBot can take credit for, for example.

There are also "jokes" on forums such as the "Maglev to Doomben" or the infamous "West Pennant Hills" transport proposals on the NSW subsection of a certain other forum which a number of forum users well know wont see the light of day.

[SurfRail]

There should be no loop.

Funny how in Europe, trains run across national borders easily, but here, it's " too hard ".

I'd equally suggest that a quick trip to Europe would show no shortage of loops, turnbacks and sidings which involve trains needing to change ends mid-route or transfer along the way.  Face facts - Coolangatta is actually a sensible place for a terminus.  Trains can't just keep going into NNSW indefinitely, particularly where the commuter market and any market for frequent local service is within the Gold Coast and only a tiny smidgen beyond it. 

The present planned arrangement at Coolangatta:
(a) is much, much cheaper than any outcome involving a "direct" line which would be anywhere within cooee of the terminal;
(b) does not prevent any future extension further south, whether by a separate train or the same one changing ends or a train (such as a peak hour service) bypassing the airport

The airport really is a nice-to-have, not the reason for the extension.  Same applies for the light rail route, which is what all the local smooth-brains fail to recognise.

The same debate is presently going on in Auckland around light rail from the city to Mangere and the airport.  It's not about end-to-end travel for a relatively small market, it's about what's in the middle.

[Gazza]

I think that eventually all airports should have rail access (But MCY is a tough one to crack without building a wye arrangement, i think its probably better to just have the proposed light rail go to mcy)

However, I don't think its necessary to "connect" them in the sense of having a single seat journey between airports.

There's no need basically, because why on earth you would transfer between flights at separate airports?
Wouldn't you just make an international to domestic connection within BNE?

[Arnz]

^

Not really sure if extending the LR to MCY on it's own would help.  I'd be more tempted to include MCY as part of a  "SC Light Rail" extension package from Maroochydore to Coolum.

There are some terrain challenges in the Coolum area though.  Considering the hilly parts of David Low Way.

[achiruel]

There should be no loop.

Funny how in Europe, trains run across national borders easily, but here, it's " too hard ".

State pride doesn't help matters either.  If it wasn't for the ARTC run (Fed government owned) standard gauge rail corridors there wouldn't be an XPT into Brisbane or Melbourne.

Now that is some garbage. ARTC was formed in 1998, dual gauge into South Brisbane was in the 1930s and Roma St some time in the 1980s IIRC. So how could ARTC be responsible for the construction of track before it was formed?

[SurfRail]

I think that eventually all airports should have rail access (But MCY is a tough one to crack without building a wye arrangement, i think its probably better to just have the proposed light rail go to mcy)

However, I don't think its necessary to "connect" them in the sense of having a single seat journey between airports.

There's no need basically, because why on earth you would transfer between flights at separate airports?
Wouldn't you just make an international to domestic connection within BNE?

Doesn't even happen in cities with their own airport systems like London or New York, let alone large low-density conurbations like ours.

[Gazza]

Yeah, there's no way to get between London airports without changing trains, or NYC for that matter.

[SurfRail]

I'd have to check - you might be able to go from Luton to Gatwick on a ThamesLink train without changing, but again nobody in their right mind would be doing that.  There's certainly no direct connection between the 2 airports where it would actually make some sense (Gatwick and Heathrow).

[verbatim9]

Couriermail Quest --> New Four-lane motorway through Brisbane's northern suburbs, possibly with a new adjacent mass transit corridor

The Council of Mayors (SEQ) is proposing a $6.5 billion highway and rail line through the heart of the north west that could become the major link between western and northern Brisbane.

The North West Transport Corridor project would link Bald Hills to Stafford Rd and Alderley rail station.

Also proposed is the North-South Link (Inner Western Bypass) Tunnel corridor linking from Toowong (Centenary Motorway and Legacy Way) to the Corridor at Everton Park.

Council of Mayors (SEQ) chair and Brisbane Lord Mayor Cr Graham Quirk said its research showed that even if every committed and planned project in this region was delivered, the majority of the south east's major road corridors would be over capacity by 2031.

"By 2041, the region will be in gridlock," Cr Quirk said.

It is one of 47 projects the Council of Mayors has identified as critical projects needed to address the transport and congestion challenges facing south east Queensland.

McDowall Wildlife Preservation Group spokesman Ken Anderson said wildlife, especially wallabies and koalas, could be at major risk during construction if it was not handled properly.

"More than 200 koalas were killed in the construction of the Petrie to Kippa-Ring rail line," Mr Anderson said.

"Issue two is the protection of wildlife on an ongoing basis.

"If it was fenced properly, and safe corridors provided (such as the Hamilton Rd and Karawatha wildlife land bridges), we should be all be able to enjoy our wildlife forever without them becoming road kill.

"The ideal thing would be for it to be kept as bushland."

A spokesman for State Labor MP for Stafford Dr Anthony Lynham said he supported exploring public transport solutions through the Trouts Rd corridor.

Dr Lynham has previously said in relation to the corridor that traffic always multiplied to fill whatever roads were built and his preferred option initially would be for a bikeway.

Councillor Norm Wyndham (LNP — McDowall) said he had no information on Council of Mayors meeting and the Corridor.

He said it was a State Government matter.

But, Cr Wyndham said, the corridor had been planned for buses or light rail.

RACQ spokesman Paul Turner said the Club commended the "shared long-term vision" for the region and called on all levels of government to make it a reality.

Its Mobility Matters 2017-21 report listed an arterial road on the North West Transport Corridor as one of its top 10 priority projects for Brisbane.

Cr Quirk said: "The SEQ People Mass Movement Study highlights our region's dependence on private vehicle use, now and in the future. Without access to efficient and reliable public transport options, many commuters have no choice but to use the car as their primary mode of transport.

"A significant shift in thinking is required in SEQ from all levels government to ensure we don't end up with traffic like Sydney and Melbourne.

"Fortunately, our region still has time to address these issues, but we need to act now."

[timh]

I'm personally behind everything proposed in this report. The faster rail connections to between the city hubs is a great idea, but I can't see how they'd achieve some of the times they are talking about. I assume Toowoomba especially would need an entirely new alignment surely. The current alignment has so many curves you couldn't possibly achieve decent speeds.

I was pleased to see more concrete timelines for extension to the Busways/Metro. Eastern has extension to Chandler first, then on to Capalaba in the longer term. Northern Busway to Chermside, south east to Springwood first, then the Hyperdome in the longer term (awesome idea). And then an extension of the Western busway from UQ to Indooroopilly! I have no idea how that alignment would work

I also was pleased to see more concrete timelines around additional rail extensions, including Salisbury to Beaudesert, Springfield to Ipswich, Varsity Lakes to OOL, Beerwah to Maroochydore, and NW Transport corridor. Was surprised to see no talk of Skygate station (I guess that's a purely private thing?) and disappointed at no talks of reopening Pinkenba line to connect with the new Cruise Terminal, with options to redevelop/renew Pinkenba/Myrtletown (which is currently an industrial slum).

[ozbob]

I'm personally behind everything proposed in this report. The faster rail connections to between the city hubs is a great idea, but I can't see how they'd achieve some of the times they are talking about. I assume Toowoomba especially would need an entirely new alignment surely. The current alignment has so many curves you couldn't possibly achieve decent speeds.

I was pleased to see more concrete timelines for extension to the Busways/Metro. Eastern has extension to Chandler first, then on to Capalaba in the longer term. Northern Busway to Chermside, south east to Springwood first, then the Hyperdome in the longer term (awesome idea). And then an extension of the Western busway from UQ to Indooroopilly! I have no idea how that alignment would work

I also was pleased to see more concrete timelines around additional rail extensions, including Salisbury to Beaudesert, Springfield to Ipswich, Varsity Lakes to OOL, Beerwah to Maroochydore, and NW Transport corridor. Was surprised to see no talk of Skygate station (I guess that's a purely private thing?) and disappointed at no talks of reopening Pinkenba line to connect with the new Cruise Terminal, with options to redevelop/renew Pinkenba/Myrtletown (which is currently an industrial slum).