BCC Centenary bus network consultation.

[ozbob]

Have to wait for the details of the consultation when put up by BCC. This should be in the next week.

[#Metro]

From what I read, any other review will depend strongly on the outcome of this review. There are no other reviews planned at this stage. At all.

Brisbane City Council to review centenary suburbs bus network without TransLink

https://www.couriermail.com.au/questnews/southwest/brisbane-city-council-to-review-centenary-suburbs-bus-network-without-translink/news-story/22e79d8bec541cb2dfdf2009e0e4842e

Cr Schrinner said future regions to be reviewed would depend on the success of the centenary review and on TransLink's response.

[James]

I have always seen the name 'CentenaryGlider' and 'BulimbaGlider' as marketing hooks rather than actual good policy. The problem with politics and community lobbying these days is that it is all based off loss aversion, catchy slogans and flashy brochures. 'BUZ' is boring. BUZ is old news. BUZ is everywhere. A Glider though... that's fancy. Exciting!

I would be against the provision of 24/7 services into the Centenary suburbs beyond the current N449 service, simply because it isn't justified compared to current GliderServices. Between Bardon and Stones Corner and New Farm and West End, there is both high density and a reasonable amount of nightlife precincts along the route which generate enough 24/7 demand. Along a CentenaryGlider, you have enough patronage to support a bus out to the Regatta/RE, along with plenty of highrises along Coro, then nothing between there and the terminus.

Also, you need to remember that BUZ worked because of the concentration of services. Sure, it sucks that the 411 is stuck with 2bph/1bph while the 412 gets 6bph/4bph, but if you split it evenly, you wouldn't generate as much patronage as you would with a BUZ. Likewise in Kenmore, you could split the 4bph 444 into 2bph 444, 1bph 425 and 1bph 430, but that wouldn't generate patronage like a 444 BUZ does. This concentration of services then makes PT more accessible, reducing the number of families who need one car per adult.

Part of the success of BUZ is that where BUZ does not exist, (anecdotally) people drive to the nearest BUZ stop rather than to a Park n Ride or the CBD. I think we can all agree that the people of Jindalee/Sinnamon Park would be better off driving to the nearest 450 BUZ stop rather than going all the way into the CBD.

[Gazza]

Crazy idea, you could just not expend the money on either of course, if it out of scope?
Network costs are on an escalator regardlesss so im sure they are keen to avoid unnecessary extra expenditure.


This is the reality of the current Centenary network on a weekday.

-You have the 454 and 453 half hourly (And hourly after 8pm)
-The 460 is half hourly (And hourly after 7pm)
-Everything else is hourly all day and stops at 6pm.

Clearly itll be the 453 and 454 that get merged to form the main HF route, no worries there.

The 460 gets shortened so I imagine savings from that will go towards increasing its frequency and establishing the UQ route.

That still leaves a basket of at least 4 other routes in the area needing investment to get them running better than hourly, get them running after 6pm, get them running on sundays.

You can imagine that they will be pushing sh%t uphill  to extract enough blood from the stone to improve daytime routes to a usable standard, let alone having even more spare to throw at overnights.

Tldr: yeah there's definitely a bit of extra efficiency available to be relocated, but not a whole lot so theyll need to be prudent.

[Gazza]

I have always seen the name 'CentenaryGlider' and 'BulimbaGlider' as marketing hooks rather than actual good policy.

Agreed

The problem with politics and community lobbying these days is that it is all based off loss aversion, catchy slogans and flashy brochures. 'BUZ' is boring. BUZ is old news. BUZ is everywhere. A Glider though... that's fancy. Exciting!

This is correct.

I would be against the provision of 24/7 services into the Centenary suburbs beyond the current N449 service, simply because it isn't justified compared to current GliderServices.

Correct, a nice to have, but the N449 isn't crying out for special attention.
When I've thought about improvements I'd like to see in this area, I can safely say that I've never really thought of the N449 as needing a bigger share of the resources.

Between Bardon and Stones Corner and New Farm and West End, there is both high density and a reasonable amount of nightlife precincts along the route which generate enough 24/7 demand. Along a CentenaryGlider, you have enough patronage to support a bus out to the Regatta/RE, along with plenty of highrises along Coro, then nothing between there and the terminus.

I was thinking last night about where a 'true' glider could go next, based on nightlife/density etc.

If you were wanting to pick up Coro Drive, maybe rebrand the 412 as a Glider and extend to the powerhouse?

Kingsford smith drive comes up a lot too, but I'm not sure where/if you would run it through to on the other side of the CBD.

Bulimba Glider has been kicking around for ages, though given the only nightlife in that area is right at the end of the route next to the ferry wharf, could you just "extend" the blue glider by having a ferry running cross river 24h?

[#Metro]

Network costs are on an escalator regardlesss so im sure they are keen to avoid unnecessary extra expenditure.

High-frequency services also bring in lots of revenue and tend to have the best cost recoveries of all bus routes in the network.

You can have a CentenaryGlider and decent service in the area as well, see map.
Will be able to connect to trains at Darra reliably, even late at night.

[Gazza]

Those black lines represent half hourly routes right?

Why not make them higher frequency?

[James]

I was thinking last night about where a 'true' glider could go next, based on nightlife/density etc.

If you were wanting to pick up Coro Drive, maybe rebrand the 412 as a Glider and extend to the powerhouse?

Kingsford smith drive comes up a lot too, but I'm not sure where/if you would run it through to on the other side of the CBD.

Bulimba Glider has been kicking around for ages, though given the only nightlife in that area is right at the end of the route next to the ferry wharf, could you just "extend" the blue glider by having a ferry running cross river 24h?

BulimbaGlider is just another marketing gimmick. There's not enough high-density to support such a service past about Heidelberg St.

If we remember the original concept of the CityGlider, it was to operate as a 'tram on rubber tyres', with very frequent services, all-door boarding, limited stops, turn-up-and-go 24/7 service operating along the City's main North-South axis. The MaroonGlider has cheapened this, by running at the same frequency as a BUZ and running into the suburbs. It kind of serves the role of an East-West Glider, but fails by continuing past Bardon.

The 412 is fine as is - I would be reluctant to couple it with any New Farm route (particularly James St) due to the traffic issues along Coro, and then again around the Valley - I think it would quickly get a reputation as Brisbane's most delayed bus route. Same with any route to Hamilton.

[#Metro]

BulimbaGlider is just another marketing gimmick. There's not enough high-density to support such a service past about Heidelberg St.

TransLink's patronage from the 2013 bus review shows high patronage and high value for money for 230 and 235. And that was with the current density setup.

Those black lines represent half hourly routes right?

Why not make them higher frequency?

If that's what you are proposing - BUZification of the 453, 106 and 468 - you'll have to elaborate on that. I can't really say anything about it as it wasn't my suggestion...

[Gazza]

If that's what you are proposing - BUZification of the 453, 106 and 468 - you'll have to elaborate on that. I can't really say anything about it as it wasn't my suggestion...

Not even necessarily BUZification.

Just that in SEQ its quite clear that daytime frequency upgrades have been more effective than late night frequency upgrades over the past few years, so if we embarked on a programme of making sure spare resources go towards allowing more routes to have high frequency service for at least some of the operating day you'd maximise patronage growth.

In suburbia any half hourly daytime route would carry more passengers than any half hourly nightlink route.

[aldonius]

It's pretty clear to me that the "ideal" HF setup is 15min or better from 6AM[inbound]/7AM[outbound] until 9PM, but also 30min or better from 5AM and right through until 1AM.

I believe that both Gliders and the 412 could support at-least-hourly overnight frequency every night of the week.

[#Metro]

It's pretty obvious that the "ideal" HF setup is 15min or better 6AM-9PM, but 30min or better 5AM-1AM.

5 AM - 1 AM. Did you mean 12 AM to 1 AM? or 12 AM to 5 AM?

[aldonius]

As in, a service at about 5AM, one at about 5:30, one at about 6, every 15 minutes til 9PM, and then half-hourly til 1AM.

[ozbob]

It really is worth noting that in 2013 the tables were reversed somewhat.  TransLink pushing the network reform for all regions, but being strongly resisted by the BCC.  Now in 2018 we have BCC pushing for reform and TransLink standing off.  It really is another sign of how fragmented the administration and delivery of PT is in SEQ particularly.  Two wrongs never make a right ...

[#Metro]

There is a tradition of trying to maximise problems between state / local when the stripes at both levels mismatch. Each tries to frustrate the other.

IIRC, Bailey was a member of the RTBU in 2013. RTBU ran a campaign against bus reform.
So I wonder if this has something to do with that. Trad at the time signed a pledge on gigantic cardboard not to make changes to the network, and there was a photo of her outside parliament with grannies and pensioners campaigning against the bus review.

As James pointed out, it really exploited people's loss aversion reactions, so whatever we propose needs to be a really good deal for the area, hence my support for a CentenaryGlider.

[Cazza]

I totally agree that a high frequency service (BUZ standard preferable) to be brought into the Centenary area. I just hate the term "CentenaryGlider". It kind of makes me cringe in a sense. As someone said earlier, it is more of a political marketing tool.

The point of a CityGlider is that it is a high frequency, cross-city service that operates in medium-to-high density areas, the reasons behind its strong patronage. A "Glider" to Centenary (or even Bulimba for that matter) just counteracts basically all criteria that a CityGlider is.

[#Metro]

You might hate it, but the electorate love it, and that's why I'm pleased that both red and green team took the CentenaryGlider to an election, and why it got front page in the Brisbane Times in 2014. That is a big plus.

We KNOW what happens when a good idea is not sold right. The 2013 bus review should have taught everyone that.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Remember translink do not have the same people that were there during the 2013 review. The whole Ora of translink changed when someone else took over and the razor gang went to town on the organisation.

[#Metro]

Translink cannot and will not be an authority until it has the powers to say no to an operators contract renewal, and seek alternatives, regardless of whether it is a public or private operator.

After the 2013 bus review shambles, BCC got rewarded for its behavior by having its bus contract renewed (!) and TL granted approval to the Zillmere UQ lakes rocket bus. Some "authority" that is.
The actual PT minister vacated the space entirely, and focused on Segways.

TL has *never* been able to exercise full network planning powers in the BCC area, and this is further entrenched by the fact that BCC is paying about 25% of costs, an arrangement not seen in other Australian capital cities.

It is not simply the case that 2013 rolled around and suddenly the aura changed. It has never in practice been able to transfer full bus network planning from BCC since its creation in 2004.

[verbatim9]

The Centenary services just need a few timetable tweaks and maybe some new earlier and later services to fix up weekday and weekend anomalies.

Once the Summers road upgrade is complete reliable on time bus services can be extended to Darra station similar to the situation where the 340 terminates and turns around at Carseldine Station.

This seems all a bit rushed by council especially when they are marketing for extra buses in the suburbs after the Brisbane Metro is complete and not before.

[Gazza]

Why not just come up with some other flashy name for the initiative?

CentenaryLink? More Services, More Connections, a Better Network.

I note Auckland was able to implement network reforms without using the term CityGlider.


* * * * * * * *

I think there should be something like a "BUZ Lite" (Though not actually call it that), because it seems in Brisbane that it goes like this:

-CityGlider
-BUZ





-Half Hourly Routes



-Hourly Routes.


There is a big gap in quality between BUZ and then the next tier of routes, and I think the insistence that you have to go the whole hog and commit to the BUZ standard has scared off treasury from wanting to commit the ongoing funds.

When a more moderate, but still very useful approach to adding high frequency (As the GC has demonstrated) we could have attracted heaps of additional pax at reasonable cost.

[techblitz]

Brisbane Transport   2017-02   61   Inbound   Weekday (12:00am-8:29:59am)   go card   1958   10786   810
Brisbane Transport   2018-02   61   Inbound   Weekday (12:00am-8:29:59am)   go card   1958   10786   682  << glider start

Brisbane Transport   2017-02   61   Inbound   Weekday (12:00am-8:29:59am)   go card   1338   10786   1080
Brisbane Transport   2018-02   61   Inbound   Weekday (12:00am-8:29:59am)   go card   1338   10786   1345 << Paddington central

10786 == northern busway

a definite pattern there...

[Gazza]

Brisbane Transport   2017-02   61   Inbound   Weekday (12:00am-8:29:59am)   go card   1958   10786   810
Brisbane Transport   2018-02   61   Inbound   Weekday (12:00am-8:29:59am)   go card   1958   10786   682  << glider start

Brisbane Transport   2017-02   61   Inbound   Weekday (12:00am-8:29:59am)   go card   1338   10786   1080
Brisbane Transport   2018-02   61   Inbound   Weekday (12:00am-8:29:59am)   go card   1338   10786   1345 << Paddington central

10786 == northern busway

a definite pattern there...

What am I looking at?

[verbatim9]

Why not just come up with some other flashy name for the initiative?

CentenaryLink? More Services, More Connections, a Better Network.

I note Auckland was able to implement network reforms without using the term CityGlider.


* * * * * * * *

I think there should be something like a "BUZ Lite" (Though not actually call it that), because it seems in Brisbane that it goes like this:

-CityGlider
-BUZ





-Half Hourly Routes



-Hourly Routes.


There is a big gap in quality between BUZ and then the next tier of routes, and I think the insistence that you have to go the whole hog and commit to the BUZ standard has scared off treasury from wanting to commit the ongoing funds.

When a more moderate, but still very useful approach to adding high frequency (As the GC has demonstrated) we could have attracted heaps of additional pax at reasonable cost.

^^I have always advocated for High Frequency services to be renamed Queensland wide to "GO Rapid" and colour coded.

This can make it easier for the passenger SEQ wide in  Sunshine Coast, Moreton, Brisbane, Logan, Cleveland, Redlands, Ipswich, Gold Coast regions and outside SEQ in Cairns.

[#Metro]

In some ways, TransLinks refusal to participate is not an illogical response. In 2013 BCC caused huge cost and wasted public servant and consultant time by scuttling the bus review. It also heaped massive political costs on the State Government.

The state is keen not to repeat that mistake, especially if the RTBU and red team councillors organise another effective anxiety and loss aversion campaign. See, there is a political dimension to this that goes beyond bus route planning principles. And a reason to keep with our standing proposal.

By not participating, the state government ensures that all costs, both financial and political, are sheeted home to BCC, who are the true controllers of bus network planning in Brisbane. If you want it, you do it and pay, seems to be the principle Bailey is operating on.

[Gazza]

And a reason to keep with our standing proposal.

Not really.
Since 2014 other members have joined RBOT, and other members have come up with better proposals for the Centenary in the past 4 years.

[#Metro]

You're welcome to insist that it is, but until you get it on the front page of the Brisbane Times and have two political parties adopt it as election policy, I won't accept that.

A high bar to meet.

[techblitz]

actually its more like this...

Red team is 90% of the time about creating jobs....so BUILDING INFRASTRUCTURE is first choice

How many new immediate jobs are in bus reform vs building something like CRR ??. There is a massive difference....

this is the core thing you need to understand with unions and labor...
They also panic at the sight of any form of reform because once again the unions instantly think 'jobs lost'...

I said this when red team first got into power....Do not expect anything on bus reform...but expect a lot on building infrastructure...the last election confirmed that with plenty of park and rides approved but absolutely zilch on buses......and the way things are going they arent interested til the next election...if were lucky..

[#Metro]

^ On the money Techblitz.

Bus reform means more pax and thus revenue, hence more space for an increased pay claim...

You would think that would have support..

[Gazza]

A arbitrary bar to meet.

Fixed.

[#Metro]

Good luck with your campaign to roll back the CentenaryGlider, an initiative that has wide public appeal and political support.

Count me out please.

[techblitz]

Can we please get an actual list of achievements by labor since they turfed newman in terms of bus??

....
.....
......

[Gazza]

Well, at the last election didn't Labor get on the front page too?
With a promise to build light rail.
But you said that's vote bait.

Therefore

Getting on the front page ≠ optimum policy.

I forget which member posted this, and I cant find the original thread, but from the file date it was done in March 2017.
The attached kml is probably the most elegant proposal I've seen for the area, featuring a Hi-450 and then the other routes all steam ironed and boosted to half hourly.

[Gazza]

Can we please get an actual list of achievements by labor since they turfed newman in terms of bus??

....
.....
......

Basically only on the GC when stage 2 opened, and the 713. 719 and 765 went high frequency?

[ozbob]

The BCC will be consulting with the residents of the area.  Up to them, but as I have posted before this will be up front I reckon:

As a long suffering Jindalee resident,
1. I'm sick of buses only coming hourly after 7pm
2. I'm tired of buses only every 30 minutes during the day, and hourly on weekends
3. I'm infuriated there is no direct route to UQ
4. I'm annoyed the only train station serviced is Oxley
5. I'm irritated the bus to Oxley is a 25-30 minute journey and it only operates until 6.30pm
6. I can't believe there is no bus service from Jindalee to Darra station
7. I'm appalled we have no high frequency BUZ service for Centenary.

TransLink have done not much of late, however once things start happening for the metro there is going to be some very significant disruption to how the bus network operates in inner Brisbane.  There is going to have to be a lot of bus changes, particularly more to feed rail. 

The sleeper is the ' integrated model for the delivery of public transport ' presently with Government and being considered by Government stakeholders.

We can pontificate all we like, nothing is going to happen until that is finalised.

[techblitz]

^^ yeah we have had all the addons from translink when infrastructure has been built.....SCuni,RPL bus reform and what you've outlined...
It seems that this is the only form of reform we are going to get....waiting until new infrastructure is built....
Exactly the same as blue team......eg: 77/clem7 && 330/airport link && centenary rockets/legacy way...

This is the worst possible line of thinking given our rapid population growth........our buses might as well not even run to timetables in peak anymore...

[techblitz]

TransLink have done not much of late, however once things start happening for the metro there is going to be some very significant disruption to our the bus network operates in inner Brisbane.  There is going to have to be a lot of bus changes, particularly more to feed rail. 

agreed ozbob....only when sh%t really hits the fan do they act..

Just on complaints etc

I was on an outbound 310 yesterday and there were 3 elderly sandgate residents discussing at the top of their voices the p%ss poor frequency of sandgate rd.
One of them has written to translink and local councellors multiple times but has given up.....this is what they have to deal with.....the silent treatment...

[ozbob]

Regions like Western (Ipswich) are not really going to be impacted by Metro and changes, so I am going to continue to lobby for improvement of the bus network in that region, and other non Brisbane regions as well.  It is a serious clusterfuk at present, timings are wrong which leads to sequential lates then cancellations etc., besides the frequency, span etc. TransLink are getting constant feedback and just ignore it ' the silent treatment '  as you suggest TB.   I am very disappointed how TransLink has become almost ineffectual, as they are completely politicised and lack purpose now and I think they have given up trying to fight the political culture that pervades the halls of incompetence.

Matt L the DDG is a nice chap, you know he once said to me  ( or words to the effect ) after the 2013 network changes went down " We will put in back in the drawer Robert, you just never know when we will need it again .. "   

Cr Schrinner has just had a gut-full of nothing happening, hence the unilateral move to look at the Centenary region.  Don't blame him at all, and in fact welcome it.  It does further highlight the clusterfuk that is PT in SEQ ...

[#Metro]

Well, at the last election didn't Labor get on the front page too?
With a promise to build light rail.

Didn't see your proposal up there. And I wasn't running for Mayor either.

[#Metro]

TransLink have done not much of late, however once things start happening for the metro there is going to be some very significant disruption to how the bus network operates in inner Brisbane.  There is going to have to be a lot of bus changes, particularly more to feed rail. 

The sleeper is the ' integrated model for the delivery of public transport ' presently with Government and being considered by Government stakeholders.

We can pontificate all we like, nothing is going to happen until that is finalised.

The area really needed to have rail or busway IMHO. Surprised that it was allowed to develop to the extent it did without that.