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Author Topic: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.  (Read 7672 times)

Online ozbob

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BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« on: August 22, 2018, 06:31:49 AM »
I understand BCC are going to do some community consultation re the present Centenary bus network with a view to working up a proposal for improvements to put before TransLink and Government.

I am endeavouring to locate some resources for this at present.

At least this is some sort of step forward.  TransLink should have done this years ago of course.

More to come ...
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Online ozbob

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2018, 08:55:29 AM »
Interesting earlier Western bus proposal thread >> https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=5480.0

I have thought about a revamp of the 4xx routes.  Here is my proposal for the full time routes, including day time routes.



Basically:
  • 444 uses Queen St Bus Station rather than King George Square Bus Station, remains as a BUZ.
  • BUZ the 425.  Co-ordinate with the 444 for an 7-8 minute frequency as far as Indooroopilly School
  • 430, 435, 445 no longer serve the city and have major changes
  • 412 extends to cover all stops south of Benson St, Toowong and also covers 411 Hawken Drive service as 412 extension
  • 402 serves limited stops
  • Extends 433 to cover Kaliua St and Upper Brookfield part of 435 service on hourly trips, add 1 more trip per hour to current terminus for half hourly frequency on current route.
  • 470 is broken up and western part is placed into King George Square Bus Station, and extends to cover 415's Stanley Tce service
  • Longer operating hours remaining part of 435
  • 476 trips converted into 475s
  • 471 uses Ann St outbound for consistency with 475, and 475 uses Park Rd and Adelaide St inbound (eastbound)
  • Extra trips on 468
New routes:
  • BUZ Green Centenary route to City via Freeway, Milton Rd, King George Square
  • BUZ Red Centenary route to UQ via Indooroopilly Shoppingtown Interchange, which subsumes 428
  • Kenmore Rd bi-directional route to Indooroopilly Shoppingtown Interchange serving Lone Pine, Mandalay and Fig Tree Pocket Rd on half hourly frequency replacing 430 & 445 service
Removes:
  • 411, 427, 428, 430, 445, 450, 451, 453, 454, 460, 463, 476, Western part of P88
Leaves alone:
  • 414, 417  Not sure if there is any percentage in messing with these services
Costs:
  • Add 2/hour 425 until 7pm Mon-Fri, 3/hour 7pm-11pm Mon-Fri and 3/hour 6am-11pm Sat-Sun.  Subtotal: 13*2*5 + 4*3*5 + 17*3*2 = 130+60+102 = 392
  • Add 8/hour Centenary routes. Subtotal: 8*17*7 = 952
  • 470 extension at 2/hour.  Subtotal = 238
  • Longer 433 at 1/hour.  Subtotal = 119
  • 430/445 loop at 2/hour.  Subtotal = 238
  • Longer 412 (slightly) at 4/hour - compensated by removing the 411.
  • Extra 4 operating hours on 435 per day.  Subtotal = 4*1*7 = 28
  • Extra 468s.  Say 1/hour * 17 hours * 7 days.  Subtotal = 119
  Total = 2058 extra trips
Savings:
  • Remove 411 - roughly even with 412 extension
  • Remove Western part of P88.  4/hour 13 hours x 7 days.  Subtotal = 364
  • Remove 450 and 453 + evening 454: 2/hour equivalent.  Subtotal = 238
  • Remove daytime 454 2/hour 13 hours x 5 days.  Subtotal = 130
  • Remove 460.  2/hour x 6 days x 17 hours.  1/hour x 1 day x 14 hours.  Subtotal = 218
  • Remove 427 and 428.  2/hour x 7 days x 15 hours.  Subtotal = 210
  • Remove 430.  1/hour x 7 days x 17 hours.  Subtotal = 119
  • Remove 445.  1/hour x 6 days x 12 hours.  Subtotal = 72
  • Remove 451.  6/day x 5 days.  Subtotal = 30
  • Remove 463.  22/day x 6 days.  Subtotal = 132
  Total = 1513 less trips
   Net = 545 extra trips per week.
Potential opposition:
  • 444 users beyond Indooroopilly who don't want to have to put up with the bus turnaround or who want to go to Roma St.  These people will now need to interchange at Toowong for a train service or possibly on Coronation Drive for a 412/433/417 service.
  • 411 users on or near Gailey Rd who need to interchange or go via UQ to get to the city.  BUZ frequency may make up for this, or may not.
  • Kailua St and Upper Brookfield (current 435) people need to interchange at Misty Morn for a 444 or take a massive detour around Kenmore South.  I'm not convinced about messing with this one.
  • Green route people heading to Indooroopilly who now need to interchange for the red route.  Not sure if this is a problem.
  • Red route people who don't have a direct CBD route anymore.
  • 430/445 people who need to interchange to get beyond Indooroopilly shop.  Not sure if they will be upset because they are getting a better service.
  • 435 people who are losing their daytime single seat to the city.
[li]451 and 463 people who need to use an alternative service.  I am open to being convinced that these routes are required.  However the 468 + Mt Ommaney services seem to cover Sinnamon Park, and I'm not sure why you'd want to head to Goodna from Forest Lake.
[/li][/list]
-

Suggested costs are very approximate.  However, I find it hard to envisage that this proposal wouldn't boost patronage massively.  The extra fares would probably pay for most of if not more than the extra costs.  This isn't really a proposal assuming a clean sheet, it mostly sticks with existing stop locations, except for the Centenary revamp and probably one more stop on Clarence Rd, Indooroopilly, or Westminster Rd.

Attached is a Google Earth file which shows the routes more clearly.  Only one direction is shown for any given route.

EDIT: maths
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Online ozbob

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2018, 09:10:36 AM »
BCC Petition

Supporting a review of bus services in the Jamboree Ward

http://www.epetitions.brisbane.qld.gov.au/petition/view/pid/538
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Offline BrizCommuter

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2018, 02:31:37 PM »
So are we going to see a consolidation and simplification of Centenary Suburb routes (including CBD stop locations) or are BCC just going to fire off more Rockets to random destinations?

Online ozbob

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2018, 03:30:26 PM »
https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/1032137481859153921
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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2018, 05:41:18 PM »
Couriermail Quest --> Brisbane City Council to review centenary suburbs bus network without TransLink


Public transport lobbyist Robert Dow, of Rail Back on Track, is “appalled” the state government is not participating in a bus network review.

Quote
QUEENSLAND’S public transport authority has been accused of failing its most basic purpose by refusing to co-operate on a much-needed overhaul of Brisbane’s bus networks.

Brisbane City Council has plans to review the city’s bus services reviewed region by region and announced it would start with the southwest suburbs in the coming weeks.

Deputy Mayor Adrian Schrinner announced the staged network review in response to a petition from 356 residents in the southwest suburbs to improve bus services.

Cr Schrinner said the council had twice asked TransLink to be part of a joint review, in January last year and just recently, and twice it had declined.

“So, it’s got to the point now where we’re proposing to conduct our own consultation with residents and to lead the charge,” he said.

“It would have been ideal, obviously, to have TransLink involved but they declined that offer on a number of occasions.”

He said the council would do the research and community consultation and put forward proposals for changes to TransLink for approval or rejection by the end of the year.

Cr Schrinner said future regions to be reviewed would depend on the success of the centenary review and on TransLink’s response.

It follows an ill-fated attempt from TransLink in co-operation with local operators to do a wholesale review of southeast Queensland bus services in 2013.

Public transport lobbyist Robert Dow said a review of Brisbane’s bus network was welcome and long overdue but that TransLink’s decision not to be involved was “appalling”.

“They seem to have lost the plot when it comes to the basics. There are simple things they just don’t seem to be able to do.”

Mr Dow said TransLink should be separated from TMR and restructured as a proper public transport authority, with a similar model to Transperth in Western Australia.

He said the centenary suburbs were “crying out” for changes.

“It has too many bus services running all over the place. It needs to be streamlined, the key bus routes need more frequency and there need to be better connections to places like Darra Railway Station,” he said.

Transport and Main Roads Minister Mark Bailey said Cr Schrinner had “jumped the gun in an attempt to score cheap political points”.

“We are still negotiating with Brisbane City Council on this matter, in part because we are still waiting to see the detail of how the council’s Brisbane Metro project will impact services,” he said.

He said the government was happy to look at any proposal that would improve transport for Queenslanders but did not address Mr Dow’s criticisms of TransLink.

A letter from the TransLink deputy director-general to Transport for Brisbane’s divisional manager stated it was not in a position to commit to any formal network review.

It said this was because it was still negotiating its contract with Brisbane City Council to provide bus services to the city.
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Offline Paul B

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2018, 06:05:11 PM »
Good luck Bob. Hopefully you can get support out that way, not everyone drives around in SUV's

Online ozbob

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2018, 06:17:52 PM »
Thanks Paul, I know  :-t

Worrying comments:

“We are still negotiating with Brisbane City Council on this matter, in part because we are still waiting to see the detail of how the council’s Brisbane Metro project will impact services,” he said.


So do they intend to paralyse the network for the next 6 years or so?  TransLink and the Minister are a major disappointment these days.
Of course there will be impacts as Metro advances but not all buses need to run to Brisbane. Rail is going to have to lift a lot. Incremental change now is the smart thing to do now to lessen the impact of massive changes.  Have they not learned anything from 2013?  Fools ...
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 06:29:37 PM by ozbob »
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Offline #Metro

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2018, 06:48:34 PM »
Quote
“We are still negotiating with Brisbane City Council on this matter, in part because we are still waiting to see the detail of how the council’s Brisbane Metro project will impact services,” he said.

This is a cover excuse. It sounds like they are using this reasoning as a shield for the actual reason - they just want to mess up BCC's plans. As metro services run in between standard BCC bus services, there is no impact.

Brisbane City Council should go ahead. To BCC's credit, they have excellent in-house community engagement teams, far better than anything the State Government would put out. I would like to see a consultancy, likely MR Cagney (who used to run Brisbane Transport) take a role here. It has to be done right the first time.

I suspect that the stalling by the Transport Minister is to buy time as others work out plans how to mess up the bus review process to the fullest extent possible / plan a scare campaign.

BCC needs to put a high value option on the table. There has to be a BUZ or even better a CentenaryGlider in there. They must have something resoundingly positive in it because any changes proposed will come under a scare campaign to try to derail it IMHO.

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Online ozbob

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2018, 06:50:34 PM »
https://twitter.com/Coxy4Queensland/status/1032185830003986433

https://twitter.com/Coxy4Queensland/status/1032186526577217536
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Offline #Metro

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2018, 10:25:02 PM »

2014

Brisbane buses: Call for CityGlider in Centenary suburbs
https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/brisbane-buses-call-for-cityglider-in-centenary-suburbs-20141105-11gxl3.html
Quote
Mr Dow said it was time for a major change in bus services from the Centenary suburbs.

"The 400 Centenary suburbs service is designed to act like a light rail, using buses every 10 minutes – very fast, high capacity buses – and replace most of the complexity in the suburbs, with a simple, high-frequency service."
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Online ozbob

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2018, 02:04:36 AM »
Brisbanetimes --> Staged review of Brisbane's bus services set to begin

Quote
Brisbane City Council is about to start its staged review of Brisbane’s bus services but is being met with resistance from the state government.

The review of the city’s bus services is part of the council’s 10-point public transport plan which it revealed in September 2016.

Public and active transport chairman Adrian Schrinner said the council wanted to start with a review of bus services in the Jamboree ward, but Translink had declined to jointly fund the review.

“When we contacted Translink last year they declined to be involved because they were focusing on the Commonwealth Games so we contacted them again since the Commonwealth Games and unfortunately they have also once again declined to be involved,” Cr Schrinner said.

“It’s got to the point now where we’re proposing to conduct our own consultation with residents and to lead the charge.

“It would have been ideal obviously to have Translink involved but they declined that offer on a number of occasions.”

Transport Minister Mark Bailey said the negotiations with the council were still ongoing because the state government was still waiting to see the detail of how the council’s Brisbane Metro would impact services.

The last Brisbane bus network review in 2013 assessed 235 routes and resulted in nine routes being scrapped and 80 services changes, including 46 timetable changes, 34 route changes and three route amalgamations.

Cr Schrinner said the 2013 review was a learning experience and a region by region approach would now be taken for reviewing services.

“This will be a learning process for the council and Translink as well,” he said.

“So the idea is to do some consultation with residents on the improvements they would like to see, then for Transport for Brisbane [the council-owned bus operator] to actually cost the reality of those improvements.”

Cr Schriner said any transport changes need to be approved and funded by both the council and the state government because of a funding agreement.

The council received four petitions with 356 residents from residents in the Jamboree ward and surrounding suburbs calling for the council to review the bus services and provide the review to Translink for implementation.

Cr Schrinner said the community consultation in Jamboree would start within a matter of weeks.

“We would love to be able to provide feedback to Translink by the end of this year,” he said.
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Online ozbob

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2018, 02:08:09 AM »
https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/1032298311779213312
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Online ozbob

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2018, 02:28:10 AM »
Sent to all outlets:

23rd August 2018

Cr Adrian Schrinner steps up the transport plate!

Good Morning,

Well done Deputy Mayor Cr. Adrian Schrinner on moving forward with community consultation with a view to improving the bus network in the Centenary suburbs (1, 2).  This region has been crying out for reform for years, ever since TransLink botched the 2013 attempt at proper bus network reform.

For example:
November 2014
Brisbane buses: Call for CityGlider in Centenary suburbs
https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/brisbane-buses-call-for-cityglider-in-centenary-suburbs-20141105-11gxl3.html

To say we are disappointed that TransLink is standing off network improvements is an understatement.  We are appalled that the so called Public Transport Agency is now so politicised and shackled to be pointless.   The Minister for Transport needs to get on with public transport improvements and sort out TransLink, and move forward with a proper public transport authority ( see --> https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=12341.msg212610#msg212610 ).  If he can't perhaps best to get a Minister in place for public transport that will.

A Jindalee resident in an immediate response to the public details of the community consultation posted these points*:

Quote
As a long suffering Jindalee resident,
1. I'm sick of buses only coming hourly after 7pm
2. I'm tired of buses only every 30 minutes during the day, and hourly on weekends
3. I'm infuriated there is no direct route to UQ
4. I'm annoyed the only train station serviced is Oxley
5. I'm irritated the bus to Oxley is a 25-30 minute journey and it only operates until 6.30pm
6. I can't believe there is no bus service from Jindalee to Darra station
7. I'm appalled we have no high frequency BUZ service for Centenary.

How sad it has come to this. Shocking governance, incompetence and failure.

Robert Dow
Administration
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RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

References:

1.  Couriermail Quest --> Brisbane City Council to review centenary suburbs bus network without TransLink
2.  Brisbanetimes --> Staged review of Brisbane's bus services set to begin
*
https://twitter.com/Coxy4Queensland/status/1032186526577217536
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Online ozbob

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2018, 02:35:02 AM »
https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/1032305069981495296

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/1032368748508798978
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 06:48:06 AM by ozbob »
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Offline verbatim9

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2018, 05:42:12 PM »
Centenary Suburbs are very car orientated,  usually 3-4 cars per household which is conveniently placed next to a motorway. The times I have caught buses out to Mount Ommaney after 7pm and during the day there has only been one or two people on the bus. I cant see the justification of an expensive Glider service.

^^Why advocate and change services now when there is no adequate road network to run reliable on time services?

The current buz should terminate at Darra station when the Summers road duplication and overpass is complete. Tweaking of times are required for current services to the area. At present the services are not spaced out properly. Multiple services depart the city and arrive at Mount Ommaney at the same time.

The 444 should be left out of this review. As we all know this service is one of the most popular and highly patronised services in Brisbane. It should not be culled or reduced as per earlier calls to subsidise a better service to the Centenary Suburbs. A N444 should be trialled on Friday and Saturday nights. I am sure it would be quite successful.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 05:47:31 PM by verbatim9 »

Online ozbob

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2018, 06:09:32 PM »
There is a strong community push for improved bus services for Centenary suburbs.  We will continue to advocate for improvements.

Low patronage is just a reflection of the poor network.  If you think the present mediocre arrangements are acceptable you are in the wrong place. 

Cr Schrinner is responding to the feedback from citizens.  He has attempted a number of times to get TransLink to do something but they just pretend all is well.  Most bus regions in SEQ need reform.
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Offline Gazza

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2018, 06:25:48 PM »
Centenary Suburbs are very car orientated,  usually 3-4 cars per household which is conveniently placed next to a motorway. The times I have caught buses out to Mount Ommaney after 7pm and during the day there has only been one or two people on the bus. I cant see the justification of an expensive Glider service.

^^Why advocate and change services now when there is no adequate road network to run reliable on time services?

Yeah a lot of Brisbane has congested roads, and they will always be congested. Do we just not bother with even attempting bus improvements lmao.

Agree that a Cityglider is over the top, they are just not needed in a non 24 hour city like ours.
The Maroon city glider shouldn't have happened anyway. I've been on it late at night, and it's an air carrier.

For the majority of brisbane, 4bph till 9pm or so is more than enough to convert a lot of car trips.
Running 4bph beyond that in an effort to capture a few extra fringe trips is just diminishing returns IMO.

Offline #Metro

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2018, 08:28:19 PM »
Quote
Centenary Suburbs are very car orientated,  usually 3-4 cars per household which is conveniently placed next to a motorway. The times I have caught buses out to Mount Ommaney after 7pm and during the day there has only been one or two people on the bus. I cant see the justification of an expensive Glider service.

Disagree.

"Centenary suburbs are car-oriented" - of course they are with no decent PT option.

"I cant see the justification of an expensive Glider service" - its not expensive, it's just a re-allocation of existing bus resources, so incremental costs on top of what is already spent in that area would be small.

Larger bus service is required as Indooroopilly (rail and shopping centre) will become an interchange hub if all buses do not continue through to the CBD.


Quote
^^Why advocate and change services now when there is no adequate road network to run reliable on time services?

It is precisely because the road network is poor that PT can have an advantage there. It just need proper priority (busway lanes).

Chokepoints as Traffic Meters and Transit Opportunities
https://humantransit.org/2010/01/chokepoints-as-traffic-meters-and-transit-opportunities.html

Quote
But chokepoints do point to an advantage for Bus Rapid Transit if you’re trying to do things cheaply. That advantage is that a chokepoint that affects private vehicle traffic is effectively a kind of traffic meter.  In our* work for Seattle Dept. of Transportation in the mid 00s, for example, we noticed that congestion was actually worse at the chokepoints around the edges of downtown than right in the center of downtown.  The chokepoints were restricting the rate of flow of vehicles so that they couldn’t congest the core, exactly the way a system of freeway ramp meters can limit congestion on a freeway.

What that means is that in certain circumstances, if you give transit a clear advantage through a chokepoint, you may be able to get away with giving it less of an advantage elsewhere.
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Offline Gazza

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2018, 11:19:26 PM »
Quote
it's just a re-allocation of existing bus resources, so incremental costs on top of what is already spent in that area would be small.
Yeah but if we are re-allocating resources around, you'd just allocate the Centenary enough resources for a 15 minute service till 9pm.

And then the money you were planning on splashing on the 24h operations beyond that would instead be spent on the next highest priority on the network.

Offline #Metro

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2018, 11:40:54 PM »
Quote
Yeah but if we are re-allocating resources around, you'd just allocate the Centenary enough resources for a 15 minute service till 9pm.

And then the money you were planning on splashing on the 24h operations beyond that would instead be spent on the next highest priority on the network.

I can imagine this type of conversation when BCC first considered introducing BUZ services in the early 2000s. 15 minute buses until 11pm? Even on a Sunday? Why, nobody catches buses on a Sunday...

Run a trial of extended service on Friday and Sat. Review after 12 months.
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Offline Gazza

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2018, 12:28:53 AM »
Lets not fall into the trap of saying that because a bold move by BCC in the early 2000s did well that every aspect of that approach is a 'sacred cow'.

Since then, Translink have recognised that in particular for late night services that it's not a one sized fits all approach.

In the executive summary of the 2012 bus review, it states one of the goals of the review as being.

Quote
2.   Help contain the costs of operating the network by
-   Better targeting the frequent network. Extended operating hours are warranted in some corridors but must be targeted to ensure value for money. Typically 84% of boardings on the high frequency services occur between 7am and 7pm, but the same level of service is committed from 6am to 11.30pm in Brisbane. The new services focus on 7am to 7pm, 7 days per week, with service frequency maintained in late evenings for specific locations.

So basically 12 hours of core frequent service (7am-7pm) delivers 84% of the patronage.
The additional 5.5 hours of frequent service (6am<>11:30pm) is only delivering you the final 16%


We can see evidence of Translink following this policy outside the BCC area.

https://translink.com.au/sites/default/files/assets/resources/plan-your-journey/maps/180108-gold-coast-high-frequency-services.pdf

On the Gold Coast Frequent Network map, the standard is 7am-7pm (Services are still available later on of course, just not 4bph)
This has been clearly successful at generating a patronage response given the continued strong performance of the GC network, and has allowed a more extensive frequent network to be implemented.

If there had been insistence that all routes must be 4bph till 11pm, I think the GC frequent network would have one or two fewer routes today due to lack of resources.
Quote
Targeting the frequent network to better meet all-day travel demands
Patronage data and market research suggest the frequent network is increasingly important. On the other hand, frequency is relatively expensive to deliver – a doubling in frequency typically doubles the operating costs.
For this reason TransLink proposes to target the frequent network to operate at 15 minute or better frequencies only in those periods and locations where it is warranted. Individual frequent routes may well continue to operate at 15 minute frequencies (or better) outside of these times, but such decisions will be considered on a route-by-route basis rather than as a uniform service level imposed across all routes.
Analysis of patronage data suggests the frequent network needs to operate at least 7am–7pm, 7 days per week. This span ensures the frequent network will continue to meet the needs of commuters and inter-peak passengers, without committing to delivering high service levels in early morning and/or late evening periods, when demands tend to drop in most parts of the city. Routes that currently experience solid demands outside of the 7am-7pm span of hours will continue to receive 15 minute frequencies or better.
A comparison of boardings by 15 minute periods on the current Route 100 (connecting Forest Lake and the City via Ipswich Road) and Route 199 (connecting Newstead and West End via the City) shows where demand can be better met. Figure 3 4 shows that before 7am, both the 199 and 100 experience comparable boardings but from 7am onwards boardings on the 199 increase and remain comparably higher throughout the rest of the day.
Based on existing patronage data, we would therefore expect both the 199 and the 100 to operate at similar frequencies before 7am, after which the 199 would operate at higher frequencies. Frequent service on the 199 could well be justified well into the evening, where it experiences demands almost twice as high as the 100.
Figure 3 4 Weekday boardings of Route 100 and Route 199
 
Ultimately, by committing to operate the frequent network for a span of 7am-7pm, rather than the current span of 6am-11.30pm, TransLink can adjust service levels on the individual frequent lines to more closely match the underlying demand, thereby ensuring available resources are assigned more effectively across the network.
:clp: :clp: :clp:
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 12:38:58 AM by Gazza »

Offline #Metro

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2018, 12:38:56 AM »
(a) This isn't a TransLink review. TransLink is a rubber stamp, so whatever BCC works out, TransLink will stamp it - as it has done so in the past (e.g. Zillmere to UQ Lakes Rocket).

(b) CityGliders are a BCC initiative - as BCC is paying more to the route than a bog standard one, it can do what it likes (and has done so in the past). It is not compelled to follow TransLink's "guidelines". Under current and previous governments, TransLink has more or less abandoned network planning anyway... as it is doing on this occasion as well.

Indeed TransLink cannot compel BCC to do anything, as the contract with BCC ALWAYS gets renewed, no matter what.

(c) A trial is a great way to test demand, and

(d) Not all services at all times are trying to maximise patronage. Some level of 24 hr service on Sat and Sun nights would serve social goals, such as discouraging drink driving. These are worthy things to do, even if they don't fill the bus.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 12:44:03 AM by #Metro »
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Offline Gazza

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2018, 01:01:31 AM »
Quote
(a) This isn't a TransLink review. TransLink is a rubber stamp, so whatever BCC works out, TransLink will stamp it - as it has done so in the past (e.g. Zillmere to UQ Lakes Rocket).
Yeah but this is a discussion of what we want. No reason BCC can't implement a higher frequency route with lesser span. They do exist, such as the 204.

Quote
(b) CityGliders are a BCC initiative - as BCC is paying more to the route than a bog standard one, it can do what it likes (and has done so in the past). It is not compelled to follow TransLink's "guidelines".

Indeed TransLink cannot compel BCC to do anything, as the contract with BCC ALWAYS gets renewed, no matter what.
Sorry, where have the current BCC proposed a cityglider for the Centenary? A couple of opposition candidates did a while ago, but it's not been in any of Schrinners tweets about this.

My take on a review for the area is that you'd establish at least one route that has 4bph between 7am-7pm.

But you wouldn't let that route hog too many resources late at night, because there are currently other Centenary routes that really suck, and could really benefit from those leftover resources.

Like, having 4bph feeding into Darra station at 10pm, but meanwhile leaving the Oxley station feeder with only 1bph daytime would be f%cking dumb.

Quote
(c) A trial is a great way to test demand, and
Trials cost money.

The thing is, since BCC did the original BUZ network, SEQ now has grown to 33 high frequency routes that have mostly been running for a while now, so planners have a wealth of data in terms of what results to expect from a particular idea.

And, as has been learned, high frequency routes in the fairly suburban areas drop off patronagewise after 7pm, and the Centenary suburbs would be exactly the same. It's not West End.

Quote
(d) Not all services at all times are trying to maximise patronage. Some level of 24 hr service on Sat and Sun nights would serve social goals, such as discouraging drink driving.
That's what the nightlink network is for though.
N449 provides an hourly service to the Centenary suburbs.

If the goal is to reduce drink driving, would you?

A- Provide 4bph to one suburban area?
B- Provide 1bph to four suburban areas?

I think option B is fairer.
The area certainly needs improvements, but nothing over the top.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 01:17:06 AM by Gazza »

Offline #Metro

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2018, 01:11:01 AM »
Sorry, don't agree. CentenaryGlider will be a great initiative for the Centenary suburbs, 24 hr bus service Fri and Sat night's to get you (and UQ students who have had a night out at the Valley, the Regatta, or Royal Exchange) home safely.

Centenary residents deserve a CityGlider. And at least a bus every 30 min Fri and Sat nights.
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Offline verbatim9

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2018, 01:14:47 AM »
Sorry, don't agree. CentenaryGlider will be a great initiative for the Centenary suburbs, 24 hr bus service Fri and Sat night's to get you (and UQ students who have had a night out at the Valley, the Regatta, or Royal Exchange) home safely.
Most catch the N449 and Uber. The Centenary suburbs don't really require another Nightlink service.

Offline Gazza

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2018, 01:18:50 AM »
Sorry, don't agree. CentenaryGlider will be a great initiative for the Centenary suburbs, 24 hr bus service Fri and Sat night's to get you (and UQ students who have had a night out at the Valley, the Regatta, or Royal Exchange) home safely.

Centenary residents deserve a CityGlider. And at least a bus every 30 min Fri and Sat nights.

Having one cityglider hogging all the resources at night, meanwhile other feeder buses in the area still at a basic 1bph daytime frequency would be f%cking dumb.

You'd be ignoring a higher number of potential daytime passengers in order to chase a smaller number of late night ones.

Makes no sense.

Offline #Metro

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2018, 01:21:34 AM »
Not a competing service verbatim9, amalgamate N449 into the CentenaryGlider as well. You would only need modest top up services to reach the standard during Fri and Sat nights.

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Offline Gazza

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2018, 01:38:29 AM »
Quote
You would only need modest top up services to reach the standard during Fri and Sat nights
Quote
And at least a bus every 30 min Fri and Sat nights.

Mate I'm sure all 1.9 million residents in Brisbane would love/ 'deserve' a high frequency 24 hour service on weekends.
I'm just not sure why the Centenary suburbs are being singled out for special treatment?

I can sort of understand BCCs thought process for the Blue and Maroon gliders. They really get no further than 5km from the CBD and run through the main dining and entertainment precincts and have higher density.

But the Centenary Suburbs bear no resemblance to the urban environments that the existing gliders run through...You're now going 15km out of the city, into low density, with no nightlife and dining beyond Pig and Whistle at Indro.


Just seems like firing a whole bunch of buses at one area, because, reasons?

What's next? Wishartglider? Calamvaleglider?

This is the current nightlink map.
https://translink.com.au/sites/default/files/assets/resources/plan-your-journey/maps/141205-nightlink.pdf

Perhaps you could explain to everyone why you'd set about adding frequency to the N449 over above what everyone else gets in the suburbs, when there are such clear and blatant gaps in the nightlink network?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 01:47:28 AM by Gazza »

Offline #Metro

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2018, 01:42:52 AM »
I don't know where you have been the last five years Gazza, which is how long the CentenaryGlider proposal has been up on this forum...

CentenaryGlider
https://backontrack.org/docs/bus/reform/CentenaryGliderFlyer.pdf

Was even adopted as BCC election policy for both green and red team. Note, they didn't run promising a BUZ..

At the end of the day, if you believe you don't want CityGlider, just tell BCC that when consultation comes around. I'm sure Bulimba residents would be more than happy to take the Glider, which is the other proposal....
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 01:49:26 AM by #Metro »
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Offline Gazza

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2018, 01:51:29 AM »
Yeah, I know it's been up for 5 years, doesn't mean it can't be improved upon or that there are alternatives.

Giving the centenary suburbs an extra special Friday/Saturday night service over and above the N449,
when there are obvious gaps in the current nightlink network would be f%cking dumb.

I think the resources spent on increasing the N449 as you propose would be better spent on providing a nightlink route to Kenmore and Moggil because they get zilch at the moment. Very unfair situation.

2bph+ to Centenary and 0bph to Moggil is unfair.
1bph to Centenary and 1bph to Moggil is perfectly fair and a better use of finite BCC/TL funds.

Try and change my mind.

Offline #Metro

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2018, 01:58:19 AM »
If N449 amalgamated into CentenaryGlider it won't be "over and above".

Not here to change your mind. Only you can do that for yourself. Have a nice night.

Looking forward to seeing who the PM is tomorrow...
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Offline Gazza

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2018, 02:02:45 AM »
Quote
If 449 annexed m amalgamated into CentenaryGlider it won't be "over and above".
Currently N449 gets 1bph overnight

If you want to increase above that frequency with more resources, you need to explain why it's more worthy than the rest of the nightlink network, and indeed more worthy than other black holes that dont even get nightlink in the first place.


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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2018, 02:22:17 AM »
To get people to use bus, particularly feeders they need to be running at a good span and frequency.  The 7 to 7 mentality doesn't cut it.

Feeder buses, depending on location need to be running from 5am to 9pm weekdays, at a usable frequency, and must connect.  Unless this happens there will continue to be the mindless park 'n' ride expansions and the like. 

The Centenary Glider is a good hook and that is why a number of political parties have supported it.

It will be up to the good citizens in the end as to the sort of feedback drives this consultation outcome.  At least this is a step in the right direction.  TransLink is far too comfortable with mediocrity these days ...
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Offline Gazza

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2018, 02:40:37 AM »
Quote
To get people to use bus, particularly feeders they need to be running at a good span and frequency.  The 7 to 7 mentality doesn't cut it.
To clarify, the route might run 6am till 11pm, but its only between 7am and 7pm that it is high frequency. might be half hourly after that then hourly very  late at night.
This is the basis on which most of the frequent Gold Coast routes are timetabled.
On the well regarded Perth rail system, the frequency drops back to half hourly after 9pm till the final service at midnight.

I get that the Glider terminology was a nice hook given CityGliders were the new thing at the time a few years ago.
But now, I think the focus should be on giving most of the Centenary a useful service now we are having a nitty gritty review.
It's not an election period where we needed a  quick digestable soundbite. We can be more specific.

Having one mega Glider route that just hogs all the resources running high frequency late night when its not needed, and then leaving all the other routes at hourly would be a dissapointing outcome.

Much better to just take deep breath, calm down a bit and by all means have the main route available 6am-11pm, with high frequency for the core 7am-7pm period when high frequency really benefits.
That then allows the rest of the area to have half hourly routes.

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2018, 02:48:36 AM »
Yo.  I am more concerned at present at getting decent service all over.  Feeders really need to be made useful before we will get the desired changes.   Try living with the farcical network out in Western, crikey it is tough.  The fact that Springfield still has same mediocre network it opened up with in 2013 is why there is this enormous park 'n' ride pressure, which is now pretty much now out of control. I will chasing the new administration at ICC to start some serious lobbying of the State.   
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Online techblitz

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2018, 06:36:12 AM »
For me:

No 24 hour service no matter which night it is....verbatim is right....due to the demographic people late night will use private vehicles or fork out for UBERS....we are talking about middle income suburbs here.....this aint inala where many cannot afford to both drive and commute...

They should try and restrict future gliders for high density tower areas only...the maroon glider is now finaly coming into its own between Coorparoo and wooloongabba with all that new tower development....obviously the argument against that restriction would be ashgrove/bardon which while not having as many towers are still getting good numbers..

You could argue for a potential future 24h glider down coro drive....definitely....but after indro....forget it...
I think we will see a Doomben or northshore glider before a coro drive one...

Darra Station MUST be fed a high frequency service....missed opportunity with all those current peak and potentially future off-peak express services..I think we are all agreeing on that....

Personally i think the biggest driver of patronage will be that focus on legacy way.....if there are genuine timesavings then people will flock to those routes...

Indro rail still remains a mess because its inadequate as a bus-rail feeder.......the only thing that is going to change that is a major redevelopment....
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 06:51:57 AM by techblitz »

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2018, 07:19:31 AM »
This is what this consultation is about:

Quote
As a long suffering Jindalee resident,
1. I'm sick of buses only coming hourly after 7pm
2. I'm tired of buses only every 30 minutes during the day, and hourly on weekends
3. I'm infuriated there is no direct route to UQ
4. I'm annoyed the only train station serviced is Oxley
5. I'm irritated the bus to Oxley is a 25-30 minute journey and it only operates until 6.30pm
6. I can't believe there is no bus service from Jindalee to Darra station
7. I'm appalled we have no high frequency BUZ service for Centenary.

Even some basic improvements will be welcome.  That fact that Darra rail is not properly connected must be fixed.  Don't forget there are some very significant inner city bus disruptions on the way when the Cultural Centre  and Victoria Bridge is closed for the Metro works. Rail is going to have to lift a lot more than it does at present.
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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2018, 07:40:42 AM »
Solid response to our FB Post > https://www.facebook.com/RAILBackOnTrack/posts/2204535506227291 

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Offline #Metro

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Re: BCC Centenary bus network consultation.
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2018, 10:25:08 AM »
Question Ozbob. Is Moggil etc included or excluded from the scope of this review?
My understanding is that it is the Centenary suburbs only, so any discussion of a route being " unfair to Moggil residents" would be outside the scope, no?

1 bph overnight though horse paddocks to Moggil seems difficult to promote. At least Centenary has continuous built up urban area. Going from 1 bph to 2 bph on Fri/Sat for CentenaryGlider doesn't seem particularly radical or expensive to me. And if routes like 460 were shortened, could be afforded.

In other words, the review could not allocate service from Centenary to elsewhere, even if people wanted that. They would have to wait for the Moggil review, which seems far off given that the area isn't a black hole PT area and no PT petitions have been lodged by residents there.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 10:36:01 AM by #Metro »
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