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Author Topic: Altandi to Darra  (Read 1446 times)

Offline achiruel

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Altandi to Darra
« on: June 01, 2018, 02:52:28 PM »
<rant>
I seriously can't believe the best route from Altandi to Darra is via Roma St. Seriously? I mean these are two large-ish transport hubs. Altandi has Beenleigh & Gold Coast trains, along with Mains Rd services just outside (13x/14x). Darra has both Springfield and Ipswich/Rosewood trains, along with a couple of feeders (103, 451, 452) although it should probably have more. And the best way to get between the two points is a fricking 1 hr 5 minute trip via Roma St. By car 27-33 minutes. And we wonder why we can't get people out of their cars?


When will it ever get any better? I'm seriously considering just giving up public transport around Brisbane altogether and only using it for CBD visits when I visit the Gold Coast. It seems to never be getting any better for anything else.
</rant>

Offline techblitz

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Re: Altandi to Darra
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2018, 04:26:40 PM »
a helawell rd route from garden city to darra via altandi/inala would be a perfect fit I reckon.
There is a bit of development happening along that stretch(cazna gardens etc).
Since there wil eventually be a HF darra to mt Ommaney. The 103 can be canned and replaced with the new crosstown route.
I think the route could co-exist with the 122 which also serves inala.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2018, 05:00:24 PM by techblitz »

Offline James

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Re: Altandi to Darra
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2018, 11:59:43 PM »
The issue with a route from Darra to Altandi is the amount of highway running that would be required, and lack of catchment area associated with it. Once you leave Darra, even using the service roads beside the highway, it is mostly industrial areas and parkland from Darra to Salisbury. You have houses along the route between Salisbury and Sunnybank, but the road environment of Metroad 2 is very inhospitable - wide lanes, fast-moving traffic and a lack of access paths.

The drawback is that if you route that bus via the back way (Hellawell Rd), it takes a longer route which wipes out some of the time savings - worse if it makes any further diversions. You also have the issue of the bus connecting to the trains on each end - if it doesn't connect on each end, people won't use the service. I would also be curious to see how many people are making trips beyond Darra to beyond Altandi currently. Would it be that high?

When will it ever get any better? I'm seriously considering just giving up public transport around Brisbane altogether and only using it for CBD visits when I visit the Gold Coast. It seems to never be getting any better for anything else.

You are maintaining the faith better than I! The only time I use public transport these days is going to from work/uni between 7am - 5pm weekdays. Outside these hours you can always find a park nearby-ish.
Is it really that hard to run frequent, reliable public transport?

Offline aldonius

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Re: Altandi to Darra
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2018, 12:19:11 AM »
Largely agree with James re. the lack of catchment between Altandi and Darra. This is where a frequent Tennyson-replacement bus would shine.

Offline techblitz

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Re: Altandi to Darra
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2018, 01:52:24 AM »
Quote
This is where a frequent Tennyson-replacement bus would shine.

If I was coming off a 130/140 inboound or from Griffith uni southbound wanting to get to darra. Yerongpilly/Tennyson would be a complete waste of time. Better to just jump off at altandi and be at inala in 20mins and onto darra in 32 mins.
Isnt that the goal here?

1. To at least compete with car on trip time.
2. Link darra and altandi in a single trip as opposed to mucking around with extra connections at yerongpilly and Corinda??
 

Offline aldonius

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Re: Altandi to Darra
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2018, 02:32:17 AM »
Quote
This is where a frequent Tennyson-replacement bus would shine.

If I was coming off a 130/140 inboound or from Griffith uni southbound wanting to get to darra. Yerongpilly/Tennyson would be a complete waste of time. Better to just jump off at altandi and be at inala in 20mins and onto darra in 32 mins.
Isnt that the goal here?

1. To at least compete with car on trip time.
2. Link darra and altandi in a single trip as opposed to mucking around with extra connections at yerongpilly and Corinda??

Oh, weíre thinking of different things.  Youíre prioritising Mains Rd connections, Iím thinking of a generic Beenleigh/Ipswich line connection.

So, in the east, the Mains Rd connection I get.

In the West: Whatís of value at Darra specifically other than being the junction? Isnít there a wider selection of bus connections at Oxley?

Offline techblitz

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Re: Altandi to Darra
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2018, 10:33:53 AM »
Quote
Isnít there a wider selection of bus connections at Oxley?
mainly for moving locally between facilties,richlands,mt Ommaney etc....but no real effort to address crosstown issues.

End goal of the altandi to darra crosstown direct is to move people between the HF bus services/express rail in the quickest possible time.

A helawell/learoyd rd alignment links the 140/130/altandi station with the 100 and then down the track....a centenary glider and full-time Ipswich expresses @ darra
Provided its frequent/attractive enough.....it also presents kiss&ride opportunities for cars using beaudesert/paradise/blunder rds as well as acacia ridge.

One of my main routes is the 115 to move between archerfield/sunnybank hills so i get a first hand look at the increasing crosstown traffic around that area....its not quite full blown congestion yet but getting that way. Action will be needed on crosstown asap to try and eat away at it.

Ive also spoken to rugby league students from keebra park high way down on the gold coast commuting home to goodna everyday and let me tell you...they are definitely over having to go all the way into the city and back out...which is exactly what achruel just experienced  ;)

Imagine if those kids could just jump off @ altandi and be at darra in 35 mins.
In the time it takes them to get from altandi to roma st and transfer penalty they are already pulling into darra on the bus.

Offline achiruel

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Re: Altandi to Darra
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2018, 06:29:32 PM »
Quote
This is where a frequent Tennyson-replacement bus would shine.

If I was coming off a 130/140 inboound or from Griffith uni southbound wanting to get to darra. Yerongpilly/Tennyson would be a complete waste of time. Better to just jump off at altandi and be at inala in 20mins and onto darra in 32 mins.
Isnt that the goal here?

1. To at least compete with car on trip time.
2. Link darra and altandi in a single trip as opposed to mucking around with extra connections at yerongpilly and Corinda??

Oh, weíre thinking of different things.  Youíre prioritising Mains Rd connections, Iím thinking of a generic Beenleigh/Ipswich line connection.

So, in the east, the Mains Rd connection I get.

In the West: Whatís of value at Darra specifically other than being the junction? Isnít there a wider selection of bus connections at Oxley?

Well, I think the value of Darra is not so much that it's the junction, but as it is a stopping place for Ipswich trains during the peak hour. I don't disagree with a Corinda-Yeerongpilly connection, it provides service for Tennyson and also for changing trains closer to the CBD, but GC trains don't stop at Yeerongpilly (except special events e.g. Tennis) and Ipswich/Rosewood express services don't stop at Corinda. Hence for a person changing from a Gold Coast to Ipswich express train they must either change from express to all services train at Altandi, change to bus at Yeerongpilly, change back to train at Corinda, and finally change train again at Darra to get on to an Ipswich train.

I understand the issue about catchment, yet we actually run routes through areas with less. e.g. 142 (yes, peak hour only I realise, but still the argument is there) and the 444 BUZ runs through what is basically acreage residential areas between Kenmore and Bellbowrie. I think that this route serves a purpose more like 142, it is a connection route rather than a coverage route, it is not intended to pick up lots of passengers on the way (yet unlike 142 might actually get a few).

I've designed a route to connect Darra and Altandi that I think is reasonably direct (minimal highway running):



Benefits I see:

  • Interchange with Beenleigh & Gold Coast trains at Altandi (short walk)
  • Interchange directly with 123, 130, 131, 132, 135, 136, P137, 139, 140, 145 & P151 bus routes on Mains Rd
  • Servce Sunnybank shopping centre (doesn't really need more services, but anway)
  • Interchange directly with 123, 124, 126 bus routes on McCullough St
  • Interchange with Coopers Plains trains at Coopers Plains (short walk) for the short working terminus of the Beenleigh line
  • Interchange with 122 bus route on Boundary Rd
  • Interchange with 117 bus route on Beaudesert Rd, also give a better rail connected access to this area (presently for rail have to change to 122 then 117 for this section of Beaudesert Rd, or walk a fair way)
  • Public transport access for industrial area on southern side of Ipswich Mwy which currently has none (okay, it's a bit limited, but the area design is poor with Shettleston St being a culdesac
  • Interchange with 100, 101 bus on Blunder Rd


Offline techblitz

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Re: Altandi to Darra
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2018, 07:35:32 PM »
Good to see your not afraid of archerfield as well  :P

Time to get serious and cover a lot more crosstown distance in a shorter amount of time to try and compete with cars.
These essentially express crosstown suggestions can still operate in tandem with the slower crosstown routes that specifically service coverage roles/shopping centres etc.
We could probably start with school/pm peak hour onlys to get a general feel for the demand.....if they fail....then ditch them and try another alignment.
Never going to find out if we don't try.

605,534,640....they all go through acreage/highways....they are slowly but surely getting there....patience is required when dealing with crosstown routes.

Offline James

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Re: Altandi to Darra
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2018, 11:18:45 PM »
Well, I think the value of Darra is not so much that it's the junction, but as it is a stopping place for Ipswich trains during the peak hour. I don't disagree with a Corinda-Yeerongpilly connection, it provides service for Tennyson and also for changing trains closer to the CBD, but GC trains don't stop at Yeerongpilly (except special events e.g. Tennis) and Ipswich/Rosewood express services don't stop at Corinda. Hence for a person changing from a Gold Coast to Ipswich express train they must either change from express to all services train at Altandi, change to bus at Yeerongpilly, change back to train at Corinda, and finally change train again at Darra to get on to an Ipswich train.

<snip>

I would agree that Corinda - Yeerongpilly is a very different route to Darra - Altandi, both in function and trip generation. The P142 is a peak-only rocket run in tandem with the P546 - it is there to ferry people from the city to their cars at the Greenbank Park n Ride, nothing more. In a way, it is almost like a more efficient extension of people's cars. The 444... that's a discussion for another day. It should have never been BUZed past Kenmore.

I like the look of the route, I would just remove it from the industrial estate around Archerfield. Westbound it looks ok, eastbound you have to do a nasty dogleg which adds another 2-3 minutes onto the trip. My criticism of Darra to Altandi wasn't so much its highway running, a lot of it was on the amount of dead space between Beatty and Blunder Road - regardless of where you put a bus through there, it won't pick up passengers because there is no demand. Industrial estates are also poor PT demand generators. This area will never turn into housing either, because it floods.

605,534,640....they all go through acreage/highways....they are slowly but surely getting there....patience is required when dealing with crosstown routes.

For the 605 and 640, the bus is the only option - there is no non-car competition, so I wouldn't call it a good comparison. 534 is somewhat similar, in that you'd have to have rocks in your head to go via the city to travel from Springfield/Forest Lake to Browns Plains.

To look at the practicalities of the route, looking at current timetabling off-peak, if your inbound Ipswich train arrives at :07 and :37 past the hour, you have 20 minutes to get to Altandi to get the :27 or :57 past the hour trains. Assuming a bus trip time of 30 minutes + 5 minute transfer penalty either end, you arrive at Altandi at 10:47 (current car trip time says between 22 and 40 minutes). The shocking part is that the Ipswich and Gold Coast trains currently misconnect at Roma St by one minute, so if you leave Darra at 10:07, you don't reach Altandi on a Gold Coast train until 11:27 (the Beenleigh train comes in at 11:10). If you fixed this misconnect by shifting the GC trains forward 5 minutes, you'd reach Altandi on a GC train at 11:02.

Assuming the misconnection was fixed, this crosstown route saves 15 minutes on getting to Altandi, but doesn't make it faster to get to the GC. There's definitely a case for it, I think a lot of the benefits will be psychological though.
Is it really that hard to run frequent, reliable public transport?

Offline techblitz

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Re: Altandi to Darra
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2018, 10:58:10 AM »
Yeronga/Tennyson southwards between the two lines......it doesn't matter where you look there is bush somewhere.
rocklea,archerfield,willawong,larapinta,pallara,parkinson,forestdale...the crosstown route has to pass through somewhere.
Not picking up passengers in these pockets is irrelevant in the entire context when your talking about connecting routes like the 100 and 140 or stations like altandi/darra which have a ton of patronage.....that's the end goal here...connect them in the quickest possible time and that zone 2-2 incentive.

For timetabling mismatch threats at darra/altandi....the goal would be to time the crosstown route so that it connects with counter peak trains.
Peak direction wont matter because trains are pulling into darra/altandi every few minutes.

As for archerfield.....achruel has chosen to move around archerfield that way so as to avoid the merge from granard onto ippy motorway which currently crawls at what would seem like 10km/h from 3pm to 6pm.
Once again...moving through this area and not picking up passengers is irrelevant. Infact...it speeds the trip up slightly.


@achruel
Theres also this potential alignment:

https://jp.translink.com.au/plan-your-journey/timetables/bus/t/126/null/2018-06-13?pageDirection=After

17 mins from sunnybank kmart to acacia ridge...this route could be extended and nip right into acacia ridge and take the back way via beatty/bowhill/archerfield rd etc. Hooks into the 100 on blunder as well.

 

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