Sunshine Coast: North Coast Connect

[red dragin]

It is a very bumpy corridor through Stafford Heights, lots of ridges and gullies. A lot of earthworks before you even look at cut & cover.

The main problem is it just stops at Everton Park.
You could follow Shand St/South Pine Rd with some resumptions to stay above ground and get to the Ferny Grove Line, but is it worth the hassle vs tunneling through to the CBD.

[#Metro]

^ Switzerland 🇨🇭

[red dragin]

^ Switzerland 🇨🇭

I see your Switzerland and raise you "Queenslander" 

[BrizCommuter]

Hold your horses, in depth BrizCommuter article coming on this subject either tonight or tomorrow.

[Stillwater]

Has road funding once again got ahead of rail infrastructure funding for Queensland?

https://www.gympietimes.com.au/news/breaking-massive-highway-announcement-makes-gympie/3394661

[Gazman]

Has road funding once again got ahead of rail infrastructure funding for Queensland?

https://www.gympietimes.com.au/news/breaking-massive-highway-announcement-makes-gympie/3394661

Roads do seem to have priority around here at the moment at a federal level, but this project has been long overdue. I don't think we could begrudge this happening.

The existing sections of this stretch that have been completed are fantastic, arguably the best stretch of highway in the SE corner now.

[BrizCommuter]

BrizCommuter: North West Transport Corridor - The Missing Link
https://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2018/04/north-west-transport-corridor-missing.html

An essential read for QLD and Federal politicians. I've even added a suggested track map!

[kram0]

BrizCommuter: North West Transport Corridor - The Missing Link
https://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2018/04/north-west-transport-corridor-missing.html

An essential read for QLD and Federal politicians. I've even added a suggested track map!

A good article with many valid points. What are the chances they will construct stubs on CRR for future connections to trouts? Is anyone sending this to the government and or transport ministers?

It would be beneficial to have other services from Redcliffe etc use CRR to service the growing population around the EKKA precinct to make this more appealing to government.

Now all we need is leaders with vision and we might be in with half a chance.

[ozbob]

BrizCommuter: North West Transport Corridor - The Missing Link
https://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2018/04/north-west-transport-corridor-missing.html

An essential read for QLD and Federal politicians. I've even added a suggested track map!

Sent to all outlets & ...

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/988445355632087040

[ozbob]

For discussion on the North West Transport Corridor specifically see this thread

> https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=722.msg207896#msg207896

[BrizCommuter]

BrizCommuter: North West Transport Corridor - The Missing Link
https://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2018/04/north-west-transport-corridor-missing.html

An essential read for QLD and Federal politicians. I've even added a suggested track map!

A good article with many valid points. What are the chances they will construct stubs on CRR for future connections to trouts? Is anyone sending this to the government and or transport ministers?

It would be beneficial to have other services from Redcliffe etc use CRR to service the growing population around the EKKA precinct to make this more appealing to government.

Now all we need is leaders with vision and we might be in with half a chance.

There no plans in CRR Mk3 to create tunnel stubs which is very short term thinking. Running all CRR and Trouts Rd services would be a perfect balance of services. Using Exhibition would complicate operations quite a bit (though it could be used for services to/from Mayne via either CRR or Roma St)

[#Metro]

Blue team want to cancel CRR. It's a vote loser.

Their focus is shifted to Sunshine Coast - BUT that can't deliver the full benefits without network decongestion in the core area.

Supporting Trouts Rd would solve that, AND you could also offer a road either beside or above the rail project.

Cross River Rail is already fully funded, we are constantly told, so less need to worry about $$$. Modification to CRR tunnel portal is required for this to go ahead.

TRR vs CRR??

[BrizCommuter]

Blue team want to cancel CRR. It's a vote loser.

Their focus is shifted to Sunshine Coast - BUT that can't deliver the full benefits without network decongestion in the core area.

Supporting Trouts Rd would solve that, AND you could also offer a road either beside or above the rail project.

Cross River Rail is already fully funded, we are constantly told, so less need to worry about $$$. Modification to CRR tunnel portal is required for this to go ahead.

TRR vs CRR??

CRR is essential for significantly increasing Gold Coast services.
TR/NETC is essential for significantly increasing Sunshine Coast services.
In the land of common sense they are a perfect match.

[SurfRail]

I still think we will end up with something closer to what was originally contemplated, which is similar to the way the Mandurah and Joondalup lines run in Perth - emerge from CRR dives to the Ekka loop, then dive again.  This is better than present, but still suboptimal as it avoids Kelvin Grove and is less direct.  It would have the advantage of being something that can be delivered without having to pre-load additional costs to getting CRR finished.

[matlock]

I still think we will end up with something closer to what was originally contemplated, which is similar to the way the Mandurah and Joondalup lines run in Perth - emerge from CRR dives to the Ekka loop, then dive again.  This is better than present, but still suboptimal as it avoids Kelvin Grove and is less direct.  It would have the advantage of being something that can be delivered without having to pre-load additional costs to getting CRR finished.

KG already has busway (soon to be Metro), so rail isn't really necessary for that precinct. Rail users have the ability to interchange at Woolloongabba or Roma Street to Metro for a connection to KG.

There are other parts of the inner city which have neither a busway station nor a train line. They should get priority.

[SurfRail]

It's not a question of priority though - Trouts Rd having a stop at Kelvin Grove or not is not going to materially affect whether or not there is another inner city busway or heavy rail corridor after CRR.  KG is the only additional stop that could happen without a brand new route somewhere else.

[not_available]

It's not a question of priority though - Trouts Rd having a stop at Kelvin Grove or not is not going to materially affect whether or not there is another inner city busway or heavy rail corridor after CRR.  KG is the only additional stop that could happen without a brand new route somewhere else.

Agree.  A stop on the Kelvin Grove rd side of QUT might also be of use to the people who live in that area as well as students from basically everywhere in Brisbane

[Stillwater]

Trouts Road corridor passes through, or runs close by, mostly ALP state seats.

Pine Rivers - fairly safe Labor (6.2 per cent)
McConnel - fairly safe Labor (7.9 per cent)
Ferny Grove - marginal Labor (4.6 per cent)
Stafford - safe Labor (12.1 per cent)
Morayfield - fairly safe Labor (8.7 per cent)
Interesting that LNP might target investment there.

IF business case favours Trouts Road Corridor AND Labor continues line that CRR must come first and is the only game in town ....

Leaves Labor extremely vulnerable from LNP attack that ALP has repudiated its constituency in North-West Brisbane and is actively working again investment in fast rail to the city through a swag of state Labor-held seats.

[BrizCommuter]

Trouts Road corridor passes through, or runs close by, mostly ALP state seats.

Pine Rivers - fairly safe Labor (6.2 per cent)
McConnel - fairly safe Labor (7.9 per cent)
Ferny Grove - marginal Labor (4.6 per cent)
Stafford - safe Labor (12.1 per cent)
Morayfield - fairly safe Labor (8.7 per cent)
Interesting that LNP might target investment there.

IF business case favours Trouts Road Corridor AND Labor continues line that CRR must come first and is the only game in town ....

Leaves Labor extremely vulnerable from LNP attack that ALP has repudiated its constituency in North-West Brisbane and is actively working again investment in fast rail to the city through a swag of state Labor-held seats.

But do the state LNP support the use of Trouts Rd for rail? Last I heard Tim Mander wanted a road along the corridor!

[#Metro]

That entire corner of Brisbane is a PT dead zone that has massive traffic congestion. And you can have a road with the project, just not a very fancy one, OR you can put rail in a shallow trench and road on top as the roof.

If you wanted to be REALLY fancy you could get a single company to make both the road (toll??) and the railway at the same time as one project. Being a company, it will be shielded from day to day political interference from TMR and the Minister, and it will force the QLD Gov't to spell out exactly what it wants. It will also be court enforceable if the gov't tries to renege.

Given the congestion in the area, a toll road with rail underneath might be popular. Because it is new, nobody is losing anything or being "forced" to use it and it could help cross-subsidise the rail as well.

A precedent for such a project exists with AirportLink. The company behind AirportLink also constructed sections of the Northern Busway to TMR standards at the same time.

[James]

I may be alone here, but I see nothing wrong with having a four-lane highway and four railway tracks. This could either be a double-decker structure, or more properties could be resumed to make room for the corridor. Such a road would then finish off the ring road around Brisbane. As is, traffic going from Ipswich to Caboolture gets funnelled through the CBD, with going via CBD surface roads taking a similar amount of time to using the existing toll roads (either the tunnels or the Logan/Gateway Mwy) due to the length of the trip.

A Trouts Rd motorway would not serve traffic heading towards the CBD, rather, in combination with an Everton Park - Toowong tunnel, serve as a ring road and relieve Metroad 5 through Bardon & Ashgrove, which is terribly congested and not realistically suitable for use as a trucking route.

[Fares_Fair]

I am meeting with members of the North Coast Connect consortium this Friday 27 April, for a briefing on the North Coast Connect business case and will be given the opportunity to ask questions. If you have any questions you would like to be raised, please send them to me via Messages, preferably by Thursday 7pm, and I will endeavour to get a response.

Not all information received will necessarily be publicly available for release, but I will assist where I can.

[#Metro]

Let's look at all the options.

I'm not opposed to an arterial road like Appleby or Webster Rds beside or on top of the rail.

Freeway or motorway I have reservations about, but happy to be convinced. Tolls might help with building the rail.

[BrizCommuter]

I may be alone here, but I see nothing wrong with having a four-lane highway and four railway tracks. This could either be a double-decker structure, or more properties could be resumed to make room for the corridor. Such a road would then finish off the ring road around Brisbane. As is, traffic going from Ipswich to Caboolture gets funnelled through the CBD, with going via CBD surface roads taking a similar amount of time to using the existing toll roads (either the tunnels or the Logan/Gateway Mwy) due to the length of the trip.

A Trouts Rd motorway would not serve traffic heading towards the CBD, rather, in combination with an Everton Park - Toowong tunnel, serve as a ring road and relieve Metroad 5 through Bardon & Ashgrove, which is terribly congested and not realistically suitable for use as a trucking route.

It needs to be remembered that the Trouts Rd / NWTC corridor is very hilly, and thus a double deck structure would be complex, but far from impossible. Without commitment towards mooted Stafford Rd and Metroad 5 tunnels, a road along the corridor would just be a Samford Rd feeding car park.

[#Metro]

Switzerland manages a train network across Europe's most mountainous terrain. Surely we can manage it.

[aldonius]

The big questions, Fares_Fair, is really just what routing do they propose to get from Caboolture to Brisbane CBD, and how do they see that being funded?

It's possible that they were initially jumping off with the HSR routing, which I believe goes Ann St tunnel, Airport, North Lakes

[BrizCommuter]

Switzerland manages a train network across Europe's most mountainous terrain. Surely we can manage it.

What a pointless comment. Do they combine road/rail structures though suburban areas?
Do they run better than hourly services running to only 5 minute accuracy?

[#Metro]

I'm not aware of road on rail examples in Switzerland, but I do know that the Yonge subway in Toronto was constructed by cut and cover, rail in a trench, road on top, and this does qualify IMHO. Trains every 3-5 minutes.

In other areas it is more common to put rail in the median as space is often available, eg. Perth.

[BrizCommuter]

Just a foaming idea here. If the opportunity to connect Trouts Rd to CRR was lost, then another option could be to build 4 tracks between Strathpine and Roma St. The tunnel section south of Everton Park would be a large single bore tunnel (a la BaT) with 2 tracks on top deck and 2 below. Express tracks for Sunshine Coast/Caboolture services would be on the lower deck with no intermediate stops between Strathpine and Roma St. Local tracks would be served by a self contained driverless metro (similar to Copenhagen) running between Strathpine and Roma St. This would allow for cheaper 50m long intermediate stations, which would also have emergency exits from the express tunnels. 20tph x 44m metro trains (2-car Sydney metro sizes cars) have the same capacity as 8tph with 6-car NGRs. Due to side platforms, both express and local services would have to turn back beyond the platforms at Roma St. There would be potential for extensions beyond Roma St. Foaming over.

[Fares_Fair]

The big questions, Fares_Fair, is really just what routing do they propose to get from Caboolture to Brisbane CBD, and how do they see that being funded?

It's possible that they were initially jumping off with the HSR routing, which I believe goes Ann St tunnel, Airport, North Lakes

The funding is not a part of the Business Case, so no specific answers for that.
The idea is to get some of the $10 billion over 10 years that the Federal Government has set aside for inter-urban rail projects.

What route or methods they choose to get from Caboolture to Brisbane is a part of it.
I know that removal of level crossings is part of the process.
Stay tuned.
That said, it may or may not be publicly available until after the BC is released.

[Stillwater]

ahhh      Federal Budget      

http://www.budget.gov.au/

     

[ozbob]

For Budget 2018-19 see > https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=13129.0

[Stillwater]

Can someone confirm the average speed of the Tilt Train on the current track, Brisbane-Maryborough?  Is it below 70 kph?

[aldonius]

Can someone confirm the average speed of the Tilt Train on the current track, Brisbane-Maryborough?  Is it below 70 kph?

As a first approximation, according to the QR Website:

Bundaberg Tilt
Distance: 351 km
Time: 4 hr 30 min

Which works out as 78 km/h.

Looking at the actual timetable, I get 3hr 40 min or thereabouts Roma St to Maryborough West. Wikipedia tells me that's about 257 km from Roma St (well, 255.59 from Central).

That works out as 70.1 km/h.

It's not just the Sunshine Coast that's the problem for RFR though - the Tilt takes 45 minutes just to get to Caboolture, which is a mere 50km out. That's only 67 km/h !

[Arnz]

It's not just the Sunshine Coast that's the problem for RFR though - the Tilt takes 45 minutes just to get to Caboolture, which is a mere 50km out. That's only 67 km/h !

The 'GympieLander' typically takes 49 Minutes from RST to CAB (and vice-versa).  And that's with stops at Central (2 min break), FV, BH, NG, Petrie on the way to CAB. 

Not much difference, even if you remove the Central (2 min) fat + other fat timetabled into the Gympielander

[Stillwater]

The Southern Hemisphere's fastest trains (the Tilts) can barely get above 70 kph, on average, south of Maryborough due to track alignment and geometry. That suggests where the investment priorities lie.  Train numbers mean the track south of Nambour should be the focus.  My understanding is that the Tilts' tilting mechanism is not engaged south of Caboolture.

[SurfRail]

^ Gautrain is the same speed and on average faster - so is the Prospector and the faster sections of the V/Line routes.  Nothing special about the Tilt anymore (and never was).

[Stillwater]

Given the tight timeframe for preparing the Business Case for North Coast Connect, we should have an update on its progress by now.

[tazzer9]

^ Gautrain is the same speed and on average faster - so is the Prospector and the faster sections of the V/Line routes.  Nothing special about the Tilt anymore (and never was).

Reason it was the fastest is because it was electric with decent acceleration.  Can take advantage of short sections of higher speed track. 

[SurfRail]

The Prossie is still faster, both due to the capability of the train itself and the route being mostly ruler straight after you leave the Perth hills.