Queensland UTC +10
Terms of use Privacy About us Media Contact

Links

Author Topic: Tennyson Train Shuttle  (Read 1501 times)

Offline Cazza

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 486
Tennyson Train Shuttle
« on: September 02, 2017, 11:23:15 AM »
I know there are about one million and one threads out there about this but I'm going to start a fresh.

Coinciding with the Hi Frequency Bus Network going online (if it was to be implemented), could the Tennyson Line reopen to operate as a shuttle?

A 3-car service running every 15 mins between Corinda and Yeerongpilly (stopping at Tennyson) connecting to the 15 min frequency train services on the Beenleigh and Springfield Lines.

It would also connect with Route 900 CityConnector at both Tennyson and Yeerongpilly stations.

The main reason to bring it back is not necessarily to connect Tennyson back to the network (as 900 will do that) but to connect passengers between the two rail lines. Customers travelling from stations between Springfield and Corinda to destinations such as PA Hospital or Southbank can easily use this service.

It will also replace Route 104 which will be discontinued.

The only real infrastructure that will need to be completed is the upgrade of Tennyson station and a new island platform at Yeerongpilly (on the western pair of tracks).
 
Thoughts?

Offline Arnz

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2256
Re: Tennyson Train Shuttle
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2017, 03:26:29 PM »
^^

One of the platforms at Tennyson has already been demolished.  So the station is pretty much almost unusable (and also questionable whether to spend the money to refurbish Tennyson to operational standards)

Also the platforms at Tennyson is only of 3-car length, so there's also no point enacting "Zero Harm" lockups (where the doors are locked in the carriages that are not on the platform) for the short duration of a hypothetical Tennyson shuttle.
Rgds,
Arnz

Unless stated otherwise, Opinions stated in my posts are those of my own view only.

Offline BrizCommuter

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2947
Re: Tennyson Train Shuttle
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2017, 04:00:11 PM »
Sorry, not operationally or economically viable. Much bigger fish to fry, or at least until the LNP turn off the fish fryer again.

Offline tazzer9

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 896
Re: Tennyson Train Shuttle
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2017, 04:06:39 PM »
^^

One of the platforms at Tennyson has already been demolished.  So the station is pretty much almost unusable (and also questionable whether to spend the money to refurbish Tennyson to operational standards)

Also the platforms at Tennyson is only of 3-car length, so there's also no point enacting "Zero Harm" lockups (where the doors are locked in the carriages that are not on the platform) for the short duration of a hypothetical Tennyson shuttle.

Funniest thing is tennyson is still considered an active station.   Even after it was closed it was upgraded.   When revenue trains pass through, PID's will say express or "not stopping at tennyson"

Offline Cazza

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 486
Re: Tennyson Train Shuttle
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2017, 04:28:18 PM »
^^

One of the platforms at Tennyson has already been demolished.  So the station is pretty much almost unusable (and also questionable whether to spend the money to refurbish Tennyson to operational standards)

That is true. But from what I am aware of, it was only part of the platform that was demolished (correct me if I'm wrong). You are correct about the cost benefit ratio though. I don't think the patronage would justify a full makeover of the station. The real spending would be the extra 2 platforms a Yeerongpilly.

From what I've been reading, it wasn't much of Tennyson Station itself that was pulling the patronage, but the connection it provided between the Beenleigh and Ipswich Lines. This was mainly the reasoning behind the shuttle idea in the first place.

http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=6083.0
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2011/06/tennyson-line-extinction.html

Also the platforms at Tennyson is only of 3-car length, so there's also no point enacting "Zero Harm" lockups (where the doors are locked in the carriages that are not on the platform) for the short duration of a hypothetical Tennyson shuttle.

I said it would run as a 3-car shuttle.

Journey time between Yeerongpilly and Corinda is approximately 5-6 mins. So, at a maximum, only 2x 3 car trains would be needed (15 min frequency). During the day, it could be knocked back to 30 mins (no school kids or peak hour commuters) so it wouldn't be draining the network dry of resources.



Offline Cazza

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 486
Re: Tennyson Train Shuttle
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2017, 04:31:01 PM »
Sorry, not operationally or economically viable. Much bigger fish to fry, or at least until the LNP turn off the fish fryer again.

Yeah, the network is in a pretty sticky situation at the moment. This was just an idea once the network is back on track (so to speak) and there is enough money and resources available.

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 78604
    • RAIL Back On Track
Re: Tennyson Train Shuttle
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2017, 04:43:35 PM »
Memories ..

Last PASS ex Tennyson (for a while ... ) 3rd June 2011

> https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=6083.0



The last service at Tennyson


Media release  31 May 2011

SEQ: Cessation of passenger rail services at Tennyson further evidence of more transport planning failure ...

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers has highlighted the cessation of rail passenger services to Tennyson railway station.

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"Passenger rail services to Tennyson have been operating for over a hundred and twenty years, from when Yeerongpilly was known as Logan Junction, and Corinda was known as South Brisbane Junction (1)."

"RAIL Back On Track members with a proud sense of history will join the last regular passenger service at Tennyson, the 3.58pm outbound Queensland Rail suburban service to Corinda this Friday the 3rd of June.  It is incredible to reflect on the fact that Tennyson is immediately adjacent to the new Tennis Centre and a Transit Oriented Development precinct, yet passenger rail services are ceasing!"

"Why is it so?  Basically because the rail network in terms of capacity has been allowed to get into such a critical situation that it is difficult to maintain regular passenger services through Tennyson with the present rolling stock and lack of train paths on the southern line (Beenleigh and Gold Coast)".

"Never the less, the Tennyson line still provides a relief line for when the southern line is blocked in from Yeerongpilly or when the western line is blocked in from Sherwood, for special trains and also provides an opportunity for squeezing in a few more services to and from the Gold Coast during peaks, pending completion of Cross River Rail. The line is also an important freight link."

"On a post Cross River rail network, regular passenger services to Tennyson will no doubt return. Until then, farewell!"

Reference:

1. http://www.brisbanehistory.com/woolloongabba_railway.html

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
  Bob's Blog

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 78604
    • RAIL Back On Track
Re: Tennyson Train Shuttle
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2017, 04:47:24 PM »
For a sense of history I purchased a ticket on the last day at Tennyson

Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
  Bob's Blog

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19485
  • DON'T SIGN! DON'T RENEW!!
Re: Tennyson Train Shuttle
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2017, 05:07:40 PM »
Not convinced Tennyson line services should reopen. It is one of those 'Romantic' things like Doomben line extension to Pinkenba

or opening various historical branch lines. We need to concentrate, not dilute, our resources to deliver frequency.


Trains are really expensive to operate due to high labour input and labour cost to create +1 additional service.

Tennyson station itself has a number of problems with curved platforms and half-train opening (doors for half the train had to be kept

closed when stopping at the station due to short platform length). The station itself has now been enclosed by very high concrete barriers

IIRC, similar to the sound barriers used on freeways.


Theoretically, however, you could run a service regularly through the area - perhaps skipping Tennyson Station itself.

What you would do is begin Doomben line trains at Corinda - Yeerongpilly then as usual to Doomben.

I imagine that it would only really be popular during peak times/school times.


Any future opening should (a) demolish the old station entirely and (b) place a new station (DDA compliant etc) at the end of Merlin

street. The current (closed) station is not well placed IMHO.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 05:13:09 PM by #Metro »
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Offline red dragin

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1237
Re: Tennyson Train Shuttle
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2017, 05:38:55 PM »
You'd be better off slapping together 2x RM2000 together than consuming an electric 3 car.

All foam anyway.

Offline James

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2056
Re: Tennyson Train Shuttle
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2017, 06:17:01 PM »
Before calling for the re-introduction of services via Tennyson, we need to consider the various reasons why this would be difficult to implement.

1. Rolling stock is stretched to the limit in the peaks now - exactly when the service is needed. Even ignoring the driver problem, there's no room for the introduction of additional services.
2. The existing bus service runs half-hourly in peak, hourly off-peak, and not at all at night and on weekends, and is poorly utilised. This could just be a symptom of the route (doesn't connect to South Bank or UQ), but I think it is also a sign of a lack of demand.
3. Do the connections line up, and is it competitive with travelling via Central? If the Ipswich & Beenleigh trains don't connect, or there is no advantage to going via Central for most trips, people will continue to go via Central, and I think that is what happens now.
4. I think some of the points required to run trains to/from Tennyson from certain platforms at Yeerongpilly have been removed. This could have operational consequences.

Personally, I'm a firm no. Boost the bus service first, and advertise it. That's what QR doesn't do within Brisbane - advertise bus connections. See if there's the demand for the faster connection, and if there is, go from there.

FWIW, the final Tennyson services were just oversized school buses. Carried a lot of passengers to the west from the South Brisbane schools (Lauries, Somerville, Brisbane State High, Yeronga State High etc.).
Is it really that hard to run frequent, reliable public transport?

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19485
  • DON'T SIGN! DON'T RENEW!!
Re: Tennyson Train Shuttle
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2017, 06:41:31 PM »

The train got decent patronage as a school service, other times I don't think so.

I think part of the reason for its removal was the Merivale Bridge capacity issues - it was eating up train slots, and services

over the bridge were already reaching slot capacity (justification for CRR construction).

The 104 bus was initially more frequent (RBOT suggestion taken up by TL), however, services were reviewed and cut back after a while.

There is a case to reinstall points there if they have been removed - under Cross River Rail, it will be possible to divert IPS/SFC line trains

on to the Beenleigh or CRR in the event of an unplanned disruption. A very good redundancy.
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Offline tazzer9

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 896
Re: Tennyson Train Shuttle
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2017, 07:51:50 PM »
I would like to see it reinstated.  Obviously not stopping at tennyson because it was hardly used anyway.  Would like to see the current kuraby services converted to it.   My reason behind this is if you catch the evening peak kuraby services about half the patronage gets off at or before yeerongpilly anyway.    As stated above, some services did get really good patronage as well.    Also at times where we are not at total merivale bridge capacity. 

Unlikey to see it regularly in the off peak as it screws around with coal trains way too much.   

Offline SurfRail

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7196
Re: Tennyson Train Shuttle
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2017, 07:58:50 PM »
Absent any other issues, definitely no because all services stopping at Yeerongpilly to or from Tennyson need to use the down platform with the current layout, which isn't going to change while coal trains keep going through there.

Offline James

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2056
Re: Tennyson Train Shuttle
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2017, 08:05:25 PM »
I would like to see it reinstated.  Obviously not stopping at tennyson because it was hardly used anyway.  Would like to see the current kuraby services converted to it.   My reason behind this is if you catch the evening peak kuraby services about half the patronage gets off at or before yeerongpilly anyway. As stated above, some services did get really good patronage as well.    Also at times where we are not at total merivale bridge capacity. 

Unlikey to see it regularly in the off peak as it screws around with coal trains way too much.

What about the other half of the passengers? Do we just squeeze them on to existing services? Eventually, the Merivale bridge train will have no more trains able to run over it and existing services will be full. I know given the state of #railfail, the economy in this state and the general lack of PT uptake, this seems far fetched, but it will happen. What trains will be the first ones to be extended further down the line to increase capacity? Via Tennyson trains!

The school kids have all also moved on too. Some children may have changed schools. Parents would have changed transport arrangements. Year 7s in 2011 were the Class of 2016. Worst comes to worse, the kids just go via Roma St these days. The Corinda via South Brisbane trains are now are just a happy memory for the school kids of the time.

If you chucked on the service tomorrow, you'd be lucky to get half the number of passengers, just because travel habits have changed.
Is it really that hard to run frequent, reliable public transport?

Offline Jockosaurus

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: Tennyson Train Shuttle
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2017, 01:34:18 PM »
This gets a tick from me, subject to the following:

  • Service is probably only viable during peak hours, Mon-Fri
  • 3 car service as you said
  • Doubt Tennyson station is viable as it would service a very small population base
  • Build a basic (i.e. cheap) platform adjacent to the tennis centre for shuttles to stop there during the Brisbane International and other events, replacing the shuttle busses
  • All GC trains stop at Yeerongpilly
  • There is room for an additional two platforms at Yeerongpilly
  • Extend City Cat to Tennyson

We need a proper network, i.e. multiple options for getting from A to B and interlinking services.

Offline Jockosaurus

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: Tennyson Train Shuttle
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2017, 01:35:59 PM »
Sorry, not operationally or economically viable.

You could say that for almost all public transport routes.

Offline Jockosaurus

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: Tennyson Train Shuttle
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2017, 01:39:06 PM »

Would like to see the current kuraby services converted to it.   

Like it!

Offline tazzer9

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 896
Re: Tennyson Train Shuttle
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2017, 01:48:05 PM »
I would like to see it reinstated.  Obviously not stopping at tennyson because it was hardly used anyway.  Would like to see the current kuraby services converted to it.   My reason behind this is if you catch the evening peak kuraby services about half the patronage gets off at or before yeerongpilly anyway. As stated above, some services did get really good patronage as well.    Also at times where we are not at total merivale bridge capacity. 

Unlikey to see it regularly in the off peak as it screws around with coal trains way too much.

What about the other half of the passengers? Do we just squeeze them on to existing services? Eventually, the Merivale bridge train will have no more trains able to run over it and existing services will be full. I know given the state of #railfail, the economy in this state and the general lack of PT uptake, this seems far fetched, but it will happen. What trains will be the first ones to be extended further down the line to increase capacity? Via Tennyson trains!

The school kids have all also moved on too. Some children may have changed schools. Parents would have changed transport arrangements. Year 7s in 2011 were the Class of 2016. Worst comes to worse, the kids just go via Roma St these days. The Corinda via South Brisbane trains are now are just a happy memory for the school kids of the time.

If you chucked on the service tomorrow, you'd be lucky to get half the number of passengers, just because travel habits have changed.

You have seen the beenleigh line trains in peak right.   Not very busy at all.   Even if it was reintroduced into peak, it would have positive effects on the ipswich and springfield line as you would have less people travelling between roma st and corinda.  There would likely be even more patronage on these services now as the Childrens hospital has opened, and year 7's have gone to high school, just needs time.

Merivale bridge is at capacity for approximately 2.5 hours a day.   Not at 3:35pm.   

Offline James

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2056
Re: Tennyson Train Shuttle
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2017, 12:53:25 PM »
You have seen the beenleigh line trains in peak right.   Not very busy at all.   Even if it was reintroduced into peak, it would have positive effects on the ipswich and springfield line as you would have less people travelling between roma st and corinda.  There would likely be even more patronage on these services now as the Childrens hospital has opened, and year 7's have gone to high school, just needs time.

Merivale bridge is at capacity for approximately 2.5 hours a day.   Not at 3:35pm.

Is the (lack of) capacity between Roma St and Corinda any worse than along the Beenleigh line? Rolling stock may not necessarily be available at 3:35pm too.

Secondly, I'm not sure if this is still the case, but I remember back in 2012 (old timetable), the 3:43pm Beenleigh service ex Park Road bordered on sardine can conditions at times. You had people sitting in the passage between carriages - inherently unsafe, not that the high school kids seemed to care. By comparison, the Yeerongpilly service (former Corinda via Sth Brisbane) service ex Park Road at 3:48pm was empty. Diverting one of the current Coopers Plains services to Corinda may cause overcrowding like that to occur again.

What is also worth considering is the impact of Corinda via Sth Brisbane services on the network - will it have a significant impact on reducing overcrowding? Where do those kids go - do they just end up on Ipswich/Springfield services, or do they back track along the Ipswich line? Lots to be considered. It would probably be reasonably easy to model though, you'd just need enrolment records and rough estimate of mode share between PT and car.
Is it really that hard to run frequent, reliable public transport?

Offline tazzer9

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 896
Re: Tennyson Train Shuttle
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2017, 01:50:47 PM »
From my own observations, there is a huge amount of kids that go from south brisbane and south bank to roma street and pile on outbound springfield and ipswich services.   I don't know how far back out alot of these go. 
Obviously a train that only services 4 stations leaving 5 minutes after a previous service stopping there is going to be empty.   

2 services leaving south bank around 3:15 and 3:45 would seriously reduce overcrowding on services between south bank and roma st, along with outbound ipswich and springfield lines

Offline techblitz

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2167
Re: Tennyson Train Shuttle
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2017, 03:23:07 PM »
the 104 is way too overcrowded at school times.....lots of kids moving between Corinda/Yeronga high.....the route also suffers sizeable delays due to Oxley rd traffic....might as well just have those students walk to Yeronga rail and catch a train......even keep it as a springfield service and you would then take some strain off the 100 buz....lots of Yeronga high students getting left behind @ chardons corner....
And since most of those students don't get off until inala would also be better if they were walking to Yeronga then connecting to a 101 at richlands......either way...more services at school times are needed....be it bus or train...

 

Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 


“You can't understand a city without using its public transportation system.” -- Erol Ozan