Brisbane: Bus Electric Rapid Transit (' Brisbane Metro ')

[Gazza]

It's not possible for every city of 2 million people in the world to have a factory capable of manufacturing battery electric bus powertrains, it's a very specialised technology!

[achiruel]

^
Aren't Bustech making electric buses? Is none of their technology suitable?

[Gazza]

Bustech only do rigids AFAIK. It would be a risk to award the work to them when they've never made a bi artic.

[SurfRail]

^
Aren't Bustech making electric buses? Is none of their technology suitable?

They've made a grand total of 4 (none of which is in regular revenue service anywhere).  They have never made an articulated bus, which might have something to do with the Calabro's historic pathological hatred of them.  They can't, for instance, build any of Adelaide's articulated buses (they are building 290 of 340, the 50 artics are coming from another coachbuilder).

[AnonymouslyBad]

We really need to be looking at something along the lines of what is proposed in this report to be operational by 2030 at the latest.

https://brisbanedevelopment.com/brisbane-needs-an-east-west-mass-rapid-transit/

Now this is what I always thought a 'Brisbane Metro' would come to mean! Not pushing 150-seater buses down to Eight Mile Plains

Jokes aside, even ignoring a proper metro system and taking the "fancy BRT" approach, this would've been an ideal alignment to start with.

The only real cost blowout I can see is the CBD east and Valley - which could be avoided by reusing the inner northern instead. Less than optimal routing, but it gets it done given the connectivity with CRR etc.

Only real roadblock is the NIMBYs in West End but it's a case of now or never to set the future of that Montague Rd area.

[achiruel]

So I heard an ad on some radio station yesterday about "Metro" turning up every 3 minutes. At full capacity that's only 3000 pphd. Is that seriously all BCC is planning for? 

[Gazza]

Yes, because other BUZ routes will still run.

[City Designer]

At 6 minute intervals the Gold Coast light rail has a capacity of about 3000pph.

[verbatim9]

At 6 minute intervals the Gold Coast light rail has a capacity of about 3000pph.

But has a smaller population. Brisbane does have a bigger population of residents plus the tourism influx at times. Brisbane and Gold Coast comparisons are not really relevant. Better to compare with San diego or Seattle with similar population demographics.

Also Brisbane is multi modal with Trains, Ferries and Bus taking pressure of a single mode proposal.

[Gazza]

But has a smaller population. Brisbane does have a bigger population of residents plus the tourism influx at times.

So what?

It's not like the entire population of Brisbane has access to the Metro. In reality it's only the South Eastern wedge of Brisbane, anyone in the northern or western suburbs basically don't exist when making the comparison.

Brisbane has 2.2 million people, but if the Metro only services the South Eastern quarter, than the population would be roughly 550,000, which is highly comparable to the Gold Coast.

[verbatim9]

But has a smaller population. Brisbane does have a bigger population of residents plus the tourism influx at times.

So what?

It's not like the entire population of Brisbane has access to the Metro. In reality it's only the South Eastern wedge of Brisbane, anyone in the northern or western suburbs basically don't exist when making the comparison.

Brisbane has 2.2 million people, but if the Metro only services the South Eastern quarter, than the population would be roughly 550,000, which is highly comparable to the Gold Coast.

You can't compare the needs of Brisbane  Public transport to the Gold coast. You could say the same with the Gold coast that even though there are 500,000 people living there; the light rail only services only a snippet of the area of the Gold Coast Council area.

I doubt that Bne Metro will reach 3000pph over an extended period. Maybe in peak when it's reached capacity over many years. Off-peak will unlikely meet those targets, unless there are special events around Southbank.

They should be looking at digging under the Barracks and surfacing at Suncorp to cater for stadium crowds. Good opportunity since they are sinking the metro underground at Roma Street with the Cross River Rail project.

By looking at other cities around the world with similar population densities and driving habits one would get a better comparison.

[SurfRail]

At 6 minute intervals the Gold Coast light rail has a capacity of about 3000pph.

It is not capable of running 6 minute headways at the moment, as the limiting factor is the number of trams available.  Given enough trams it could operate every 2 minutes comfortably, for 9,000 pphpd.

Does the Gold Coast routinely need more capacity than this (as opposed to say Brisbane for like 240 or so days of the year)?

[SurfRail]

Also Brisbane is multi modal with Trains, Ferries and Bus taking pressure of a single mode proposal.

All of these things exist on the Gold Coast last time I checked.

[verbatim9]

Also Brisbane is multi modal with Trains, Ferries and Bus taking pressure of a single mode proposal.

All of these things exist on the Gold Coast last time I checked.

Not as extensively. Ferries are not a part of the Go card through ticketing system and the trains a limited to a few stops. I wouldn't call it an extensive multi modal system.

[Gazza]

Not as extensively. Ferries are not a part of the Go card through ticketing system and the trains a limited to a few stops. I wouldn't call it an extensive multi modal system.

Again, what part of Brisbane are we talking about? Does Albany Creek have an extensive multi modal system?

GC is more multi modal than Brisbane IMO basically because they don't have a body like BCC that loves running buses in competition to trains.

On the GC, the network is designed around having interchange.

[City Designer]

At 6 minute intervals the Gold Coast light rail has a capacity of about 3000pph.

It is not capable of running 6 minute headways at the moment, as the limiting factor is the number of trams available.  Given enough trams it could operate every 2 minutes comfortably, for 9,000 pphpd.

Does the Gold Coast routinely need more capacity than this (as opposed to say Brisbane for like 240 or so days of the year)?

6 minute headways is the limit using 17 trams and 1 spare. That was the Commonwealth Games operating pattern.

[SurfRail]

It's slightly less frequent than 6 minutes - in practice it translates to about 18-19 trams over 2 hours.

[AnonymouslyBad]

I doubt that Bne Metro will reach 3000pph over an extended period. Maybe in peak when it's reached capacity over many years. Off-peak will unlikely meet those targets, unless there are special events around Southbank.

3000pph is nothing.

If they continue to run the same awful network as now, with every milk run to everywhere flooding the busway, the Metro services will be air parcels.

But if the bus network is actually reformed, local services built around transfer to Metro, with just a few key routes running through ... a 3 minute headway will see the Metro services mostly full quite easily.

[aldonius]

If they continue to run the same awful network as now, with every milk run to everywhere flooding the busway, the Metro services will be air parcels.

Line 1 maybe. Line 2 upgrades the 66. It already runs 12bph at peak times, often with artics, and it can get very crowded.

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> Council still counting the cost of Brisbane Metro delays

Brisbane City Council still does not know exactly how much construction delays on its Brisbane Metro mass transit project will cost, six months after flagging the hold-up.

But the council insists the 2016 LNP election-pledge project is still "fully funded", despite also admitting the delays caused by reassessing the planned South Brisbane Metro station would cost more money.

The 2017 business case for Brisbane Metro indicated final construction would be completed by 2022, however that has since been pushed out to 2023.

Public and active transport committee chairwoman Krista Adams said that, to date, the council had invested $113 million into the $944 million project, of which $43 million was put towards the Metro depot at Rochedale.

"The reality is delays do cost money, but it is fantastic we are now under way and have state government support for this critical project," Cr Adams said.

"Brisbane Metro will happen – it is fully funded by Brisbane City Council and the federal government."

In June last year Transport Minister Mark Bailey requested the council reconsider its planned metro station location under the Cultural Centre.

The request prompted an angry lashing from lord mayor Adrian Schrinner, but by the end of the year state and government had patched over the rift and early work for South Brisbane began.

Contractors that had already tendered for the Cultural Centre station were left waiting for a solution, with industry warning the council could have to pay more to those contractors left in the lurch after putting in multimillion-dollar bids.

"We are continuing to finalise the tender process and work with the state government on the Cultural Centre station options, with specific costs yet to be finalised," Cr Adams said.

The council had budgeted $49.6 million for Brisbane Metro across the 2017-2018 financial year, but spent only $16.6 million.

In 2018-19, the council had budgeted for $39.9 million and spent $44.4 million.

For the current financial year, the council budgeted $125 million, of which $7 million had been spent across July to October last year.

As of September last year, $12 million of spending went to the Brisbane Metro business case, and almost $29 million for design and technical investigations.

Sixteen million dollars were spent on purchasing land, and more than $1 million on marketing and communications for the Metro project.

Late last year, the council announced that electric vehicles for Brisbane Metro had been selected, with some fit-out work to be completed in Brisbane.

Labor lord mayoral candidate Pat Condren criticised the administration for running adverts saying the Brisbane Metro was "under way", labelling the adverts "misleading".

"Blowouts and delays are what we've come to expect from this unelected lord mayor," Mr Condren said.

"Yet he is still spending hundreds of thousands on misleading ads suggesting it's already running.

"This unelected lord mayor is more interested in promoting himself than delivering improved public transport for Brisbane."

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Schrinner/status/1216942822709841920

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Schrinner/status/1216943293012959233

[timh]

The Queensland Labor Facebook is running ads smearing BCC for the "cost blowout"

https://www.facebook.com/397230473694314/posts/2694688433948495/

That's just one of them.

The f**** is this!?

That's a pretty low political ball to play, considering it was the state government that put BCC in this situation in the first place. What happened to the "buried the hatchet" rhetoric? Seriously enrages me that we're continuing to get this bullsh%t from the two levels of government when they really need to work together on this.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[#Metro]

Shall we lay bets that one of the announcements will be scrapping the metro and replacing it with light rail, possibly with free fares to boot?

[timh]

Shall we lay bets that one of the announcements will be scrapping the metro and replacing it with light rail, possibly with free fares to boot?

What light rail could they possibly propose? We've already established running light rail on the busway would be impossible now due to curvature and gradients. Inner city (ie City glider routes)? Unlikely. Too expensive.

Honestly the current Metro proposal is fine. The problem is the name. If they just called it "Brisbane BRT" or something, and said the cultural centre upgrades were a bonus, no one would care

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[Jonno]

I noticed the new stations are not integrated (connected) so you exit the train station and then enter the bus station!!! The mode shouldn't matter. Why are we treating the busway different to a train line?

[Gazza]

Inner city (ie City glider routes)? Unlikely. Too expensive.

Really? Other first world cities routinely do it?

I wouldn't mind it on the Blue Glider since it's dumb to build up West End so much but have a bus only solution, and Montague Rd would be easy to build along.
There's no shortage of road space on Ann St, and that could do with a good road diet.

[timh]

I noticed the new stations are not integrated (connected) so you exit the train station and then enter the bus station!!! The mode shouldn't matter. Why are we treating the busway different to a train line?

Yeah I'm not happy with that. Mind you we haven't got the new redesign yet. It's possible in the new design they might be integrated, as I agree, our busways should be treated like train lines.

Inner city (ie City glider routes)? Unlikely. Too expensive.

Really? Other first world cities routinely do it?

I wouldn't mind it on the Blue Glider since it's dumb to build up West End so much but have a bus only solution, and Montague Rd would be easy to build along.
There's no shortage of road space on Ann St, and that could do with a good road diet.

Oh yeah don't get me wrong I think it's a great idea. The blue city glider route is a prime candidate for conversion to light rail (I think that was one of the original proposals for the route?).

My point was more that I think it is unlikely Labor at a council level would propose it for this election due to the high costs, and the construction problems with Sydney's light rail (business closures etc.) still weighing heavily on peoples minds.

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> Brisbane Metro 'at risk' if Labor elected, Schrinner warns

Brisbane City Council will look to the state government to cover any budget blowouts for the Brisbane Metro after the $944 million project was pushed back last year, while Labor indicated it would review the project if elected.

The state government requested the council reassess a planned underground station at the Cultural Centre for the mass transit project, sparking a war of words between lord mayor Adrian Schrinner and Transport Minister Mark Bailey.

Cr Schrinner said on Tuesday that early works had begun on the Brisbane Metro depot at Rochedale as the council continued developing a final plan for the Cultural Centre underground station.

The final costs of those changes, which caused months of delays to construction, are still unknown, he said, and may not be known before the March 28 election.

Cr Schrinner said until engineering work on the proposed station location was finalised he couldn't "speculate" on any cost changes, and could not guarantee that any overrun costs would be revealed before the March 28 election.

"This is something that has to be determined based on the engineering that is going on at the moment," Cr Schrinner said.

"Any changes, any cost changes, would be something that we would go to the state government for. Ultimately it would be their change that required a change in the cost of the project.

"It would be their involvement, so we would be going to them asking for any funding. We've made that clear to them."

Cr Schrinner's comments came as Labor lord mayoral candidate Pat Condren indicated he would reconsider Brisbane Metro if elected, should the massive project not stack up for value for money.

Mr Condren told reporters on Tuesday morning that Cr Schrinner would not admit to extra costs for Brisbane Metro when there was "not a shovel in the ground to date" for the project.

"If I'm lucky enough to be elected on March 28 this year, I will seriously review the future of the metro project," Mr Condren said.

"It's already several million dollars over budget, which is absolutely extraordinary, and these difficult financial times, can the residents and ratepayers of Brisbane afford this sort of overrun?"

A spokesman for Acting Transport and Main Roads Minister Mark Ryan said the state was "committed" to working with the council on the metro.

"Council has committed to progress design work on the new cultural centre metro station and to continue exploring the option for West End buses to travel underground by modifying the existing reference design," the spokesman said.

"This will involve engaging shortlisted bidders and further technical feasibility work on potential mechanical flood gates, with any funding implications expected to be discussed when this work is complete."

Cr Schrinner said the council Labor opposition had not presented any alternative plans for mass transit in Brisbane and did not have the experience to deliver a large-scale infrastructure project.

"The only reason [Brisbane Metro] would be under threat would be if the other side were elected on the 28th of March," Cr Schrinner said.

"People need to be aware that Brisbane Metro is at risk because [Labor] has not indicated their support for the project, but they have not on the other hand presented any alternatives for public transport in Brisbane."

[ozbob]

Shall we lay bets that one of the announcements will be scrapping the metro and replacing it with light rail, possibly with free fares to boot?

I am hoping they go the ... MONO RAIL !!   

Seriously sad situation all round.  After Rocket Rod "FFF" and Quirky's rubber tyre metro, I have become very wary of BCC electioneering. 

It is shaping up as a repeat ... and really confirms the diabolical nature of public transport management and development in Queensland.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/9NewsQueensland/status/1216999164539817984

[timh]

Brisbanetimes --> Brisbane Metro 'at risk' if Labor elected, Schrinner warns

Cr Schrinner's comments came as Labor lord mayoral candidate Pat Condren indicated he would reconsider Brisbane Metro if elected, should the massive project not stack up for value for money.

"Not stack up for value for money"

Brisbane Metro was given high priority funding from Infrastructure Australia... Fair to say it stacks up.

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[James]

Really? Other first world cities routinely do it?

I wouldn't mind it on the Blue Glider since it's dumb to build up West End so much but have a bus only solution, and Montague Rd would be easy to build along.
There's no shortage of road space on Ann St, and that could do with a good road diet.

I think the bus solution for Montague Road is adequate.

Of course it isn't ideal, but unlike many other cities that have trams, Brisbane is constrained by its narrow road network. You look at many cities with trams (Melbourne and Vienna most notably), they all have very wide road corridors with plenty of space for trams & tram stops. Montague Road would be easy to build along until you try and put in a tram stop, where you'd either have to realign the road or resume houses (or possibly new apartments - yikes). You also do wipe out a lot of street parking & turn lanes, which could create issues in and of itself.

And finally - the trams will just end up getting stuck in traffic unless they operate in Class A or B ROW anyway. I like trams, but unless you do it like the Gold Coast and run with adequate signal priority, there is no additional benefit compared to running buses. You are better off using that additional road space to build the Metro.

Shall we lay bets that one of the announcements will be scrapping the metro and replacing it with light rail, possibly with free fares to boot?

Sportsbet will probably pay out on this by the end of the month. Hopelessly politicised.

[#Metro]

Shall we lay bets that one of the announcements will be scrapping the metro and replacing it with light rail, possibly with free fares to boot?

Wow, just hours after I wrote this GUESS WHAT?!?.

This is so predictable.

I bet the tram will be resurrected from the cemetery. Do you think I will be right?

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1217109164830277632

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Schrinner/status/1217200456448892928

[#Metro]

I am waiting with bated breath for the tram to appear!!!

[Gazza]

Really? Other first world cities routinely do it?

I wouldn't mind it on the Blue Glider since it's dumb to build up West End so much but have a bus only solution, and Montague Rd would be easy to build along.
There's no shortage of road space on Ann St, and that could do with a good road diet.

I think the bus solution for Montague Road is adequate.

Of course it isn't ideal, but unlike many other cities that have trams, Brisbane is constrained by its narrow road network. You look at many cities with trams (Melbourne and Vienna most notably), they all have very wide road corridors with plenty of space for trams & tram stops. Montague Road would be easy to build along until you try and put in a tram stop, where you'd either have to realign the road or resume houses (or possibly new apartments - yikes). You also do wipe out a lot of street parking & turn lanes, which could create issues in and of itself.

And finally - the trams will just end up getting stuck in traffic unless they operate in Class A or B ROW anyway. I like trams, but unless you do it like the Gold Coast and run with adequate signal priority, there is no additional benefit compared to running buses. You are better off using that additional road space to build the Metro.

Shall we lay bets that one of the announcements will be scrapping the metro and replacing it with light rail, possibly with free fares to boot?

Sportsbet will probably pay out on this by the end of the month. Hopelessly politicised.

Brisbane really doesn't have particularly narrow roads so I'm not sure why you keep saying that.
And clearly Vienna and Melbourne aren't the only places. What about virtually any medium to large German or French city, a few north american ones.
And sydney.

I should have said light rail rather than trams, obviously I'd want something that operates in a dedicated lane with signal priority.

It's quite an odd line of argument you used.
" the trams will just end up getting stuck in traffic unless they operate in Class A or B ROW anyway. I like trams, but unless you do it like the Gold Coast and run with adequate signal priority, there is no additional benefit compared to running buses."
Basically, all you said is that a crap tram implementation is no better than bus.
Well duh.

[ozbob]

Couriermail 15th January 2020 page 8

Condren no Metro fan

[ozbob]

I am waiting with bated breath for the tram to appear!!!

Team Condren should move on and accept the fact that the ' Bi-artic Metro ' is well grounded.  They should concentrate on outlining how THEY will make the most of the opportunities it presents for Brisbane.  Better cross suburban routes, frequent feeders, working with the State for improved fares.  Where do their advisers come from?  Like it or not, the ' Metro ' is in peoples heads now.  People are tired of the shifting political games with public transport.