Brisbane: Bus Electric Rapid Transit (' Brisbane Metro ')

[#Metro]

A few comments on the FB page and also ABC http://www.abc.net.au/radio/brisbane/programs/breakfast/

Some moans/groans from Engineers Australia also (read: concrete lobby) in the Brisbane Times.

I think that if it is configured properly, we will get 30 000 pphd out of this upgrade.

There will be no need for an upgrade to a wheel-on-steel metro then - because that IS metro capacity.

I think that is the main point - it can reach 30 000 pphd.


Let's get some test vehicles into Brisbane and put them on public display in King George Square. Might extinguish some of the grumblers.

[techblitz]

The LM and DM are smart politicians but they are really starting to get bus reform. 
They want CRR to proceed ( and why not BCC will do very well out of it ).  This is all very welcome.

on paper it may seem like they are supporting CRR but deep down we know the real M.O for BCC/BT...
To compete as much as feasibly possible with QR for patronage and to shore up as many trips as possible.....

Metro will free up a sizeable amount of buses.......but do we honestly expect to see 'TL review 2012' like bus - rail reform? After the way QR has mishandled the 'unintentional' issues cast upon them....I think not.....#railfail has badly damaged trust in rail-bus transfers....
No.....what we will see is an increase in BT services on the proviso that said services are priority fed into BT hubs....not QR stations.....

The centenary bus review and how they treat darra/richlands/oxley should give us their intentions....
One thing is probably a certainty with the centenary review.......we will likely see increased frequency for a lot of routes currently passing through indro....but they will be truncated there...

And now that metro will free up more buses using roma st...its highly likely we will see a centenary - indro - city via legacy way buz......strikingly similar to the 330/Chermside/airport link arrangement. This blends in with the BT/BCC/tunnel line of thought.....

[ozbob]

Cynicism is understandable but I think we will start to see some real improvements from here with a better focus on a more integrated network all modes.

[#Metro]

One thing is probably a certainty with the centenary review.......we will likely see increased frequency for a lot of routes currently passing through indro....but they will be truncated there...

Scott Emerson MP got a case of cold feet because the bus reform proposals mainly preserved the direct routing EXCEPT for

Indooroopilly (his seat) where, due to the geography, services would be terminating short to place passengers on trains and on

buses at the train station or the shopping centre.

[Derwan]

I get annoyed with the negative comments where they will obviously only ever see the negatives of any proposal that is put forward.  They're like a political opposition where they will bag an idea for the sake of it - without putting forward a credible alternative.

RailBOT has been the "voice of reason" in all of this.  We were against the original metro plan and backed up our view with facts and figures.  We put forward the far cheaper idea of bus reform as a credible alternative.

We now have a plan that does "bus reform" and goes a step further.  Yes - we still need to see the details, but the overall idea is worth supporting in principal.

No doubt we'll be keeping an eye on the details as they are released - to ensure that we get true bus reform that will support both bus and rail trunk routes.  It needs to be either coordinated by or done in close conjunction with TransLink and TMR as a whole.  Where necessary, bus connection access and stops at train and busway stations will need to be upgraded.  These things can all be influenced as details emerge.

[techblitz]

It needs to be either coordinated by or done in close conjunction with TransLink and TMR as a whole.  Where necessary, bus connection access and stops at train and busway stations will need to be upgraded.  These things can all be influenced as details emerge.

coopers plains is one of the definitive areas....if TMR can sort the x-crossing out as well as make coopers plains station more bus friendly....opens up a world of opportunities for bus reform in that area....

[ozbob]

Couriermail Quest --> New plans for Brisbane metro revealed

MORE than 12 months on from the introduction of plans for a Brisbane Metro and questions are still being asked about what exactly the billion dollar project is. As the completion of the business case creeps closer Quest News takes a look at what has been revealed so far.

THE PAST

The concept of a Brisbane Metro was first introduced during the 2016 Brisbane City Council election.

In January 2016 Lord Mayor Graham Quirk revealed his first election commitment — plans for a $1.52 billion underground metro system to run through the CBD between Woolloongabba and Herston.

At the time Cr Quirk said the rubber-tyred system would remove 200 buses an hour in the morning peak from Victoria Bridge and carry up to 30,000 passengers an hour.

Labor Lord Mayoral Candidate Rod Harding argued Cr Quirk's unfunded proposal was the wrong approach having earlier launched his own light rail plan for the city.

Labor's proposal was to use light rail to link the CBD to South Bank, Fortitude Valley, Newstead West End and the University of Queensland.

Cr Quirk won the race for Lord Mayor at the 2016 election and said he was confident the $1.54 billion Metro project would go ahead.

Work on the business case started in May, 2016 and was to continue for 12 months.

Last September Infrastructure and Planning Minister Jackie Trad rejected the use of the Go Print site for Brisbane Metro, and it became apparent the proposal would require a significant redesign.

Later that month Cr Quirk announced he would turn to residents for help with developing the business case.

From August to November last year, 1489 residents provided 1066 pieces of feedback.

Community feedback on Brisbane City Council's proposed metro system. Data gathered from August to November, 2016.

On Saturday the council revealed a drastically revised plan for the metro system.

There are now two lines included with significantly expanded routes and more than $500 million cut from the initially proposed project cost.

One service is now planned to run from the CBD's Roma Street Transit Centre to Eight Mile Plains in the city's south, mostly along the southeast busway.

A second high-frequency line has been designed to run from the Royal Brisbane and Women's Hospital to the University of Queensland Lakes in the west, using parts of the State Government controlled northern and southeast busways.

The revised plans proposed the use of "bi-articulated" buses, which are commonly known as banana buses.
At today's Active and Public Transport Committee Opposition transport spokesman Jared Cassidy asked the committee's chairman Adrian Schrinner if "bendy buses" were the final option or if other options would be considered.

Cr Schrinner said the council would not be doing any further analysis of other options.

"We have selected this as our preferred option," he said.

Cr Schrinner said the revised proposal is a 21km route that is not limited by tracks.

The proposed system can run on the existing busway and can also be used on roads, however it is proposed the 60 services would be contained to existing busways.

Cr Schrinner said the city's priority was to provide high frequency, high capacity services.

"The reality is proposing that some services will be truncated ... other services will continue to operate," he said.

"If you fast forward maybe a few years down the track there will be more and more metro services provided and fewer bus services on the route.

"Over time metro services would replace general bus services."

Cr Schrinner said the council was still exploring different examples of vehicles for the Brisbane Metro, and did not rule out having vehicles purpose-built.

THE FUTURE

Now that the revised Brisbane Metro project has been announced the council will respond to key community and stakeholder concerns.

Further community consultation is planned for April, 2017 and will include community information sessions and stakeholder meetings.

The feedback will inform the preliminary business case which will be finalised in May 2017.

[verbatim9]

"Cr Schrinner said the revised proposal is a 21km route that is not limited by tracks.

The proposed system can run on the existing busway and can also be used on roads, however it is proposed the 60 services would be contained to existing busways."

Can OHW Catenary Overhead wiring be run from the busway to Mt Gravett Depot? Trolley Articulated Vehicles (Metro Bus) are considerably cheaper to buy 50% cheaper. Can run continuous from 4am-1am requires minimal maintenance, lighter and has more interior space compared to rapid recharge models. Rapid recharge models be best to use as feeder services when the current fleet of diesel buses require replacement.

[ozbob]

The are going to use bi-artics.  How they are powered is yet to be determined.

Trolley buses will require the set up, cost and maintenance of OHT.  Plus the problems of lack of ability to run around.  The bi-artics will be running with other buses so flexibility is required.

I suggest you make your own submission re trolley buses if you are that keen.

The bi-artics will not always be confined to the busways.  In time they will certainly be extended to Carindale - eastern busway then transit way to Carindale.  Like wise might be extended out to Chermside in time.

[ozbob]

The spin being thrust forward is that it was the mean State Government not giving up the go print site was reason for the changes to the metro.

The reality is this dear reader.  The metro as proposed simply did not stack up!  A point well made by us and others.

The BRT 'metro' is a good outcome and suits Brisbane.

[City Designer]

I suspect that bi-articulated buses will probably be deemed too hard to implement and instead we will end up with a fleet of about 90 Volvo B8RLEA Volgren Optimus artics like those in Perth.

[ozbob]

I suspect that bi-articulated buses will probably be deemed too hard to implement and instead we will end up with a fleet of about 90 Volvo B8RLEA Volgren Optimus artics like those in Perth.

I don't think there will be any real issues with the bi-artics.  BCC has already done a fair bit of work and they would not have gone public if they were not fair dinkum.

[Derwan]

I suspect that bi-articulated buses will probably be deemed too hard to implement and instead we will end up with a fleet of about 90 Volvo B8RLEA Volgren Optimus artics like those in Perth.

In all honesty, even if this DID happen, the end result would still be a good one - provided bus reform and the Melbourne St conflict (Cultural Centre bus station upgrade) go ahead.

Of course bi-artics would be better. 

[Jonno]

Sorry if this may have been discussed before How do they claim 22,000 in peak?  Even 250 passengers by 2 routes every three minutes both directions is 20,000!  Are they assuming other buses remain on the busway to make up the shortfall.  Apologies if this has been discussed?

[aldonius]

Sorry if this may have been discussed before How do they claim 22,000 in peak?  Even 250 passengers by 2 routes every three minutes both directions is 20,000!  Are they assuming other buses remain on the busway to make up the shortfall.  Apologies if this has been discussed?

Yes, other buses remain on the busway.

[Jonno]

Personally I think for $1B they should be able to develop a much more extensive network. Yes it would take some lanes of major roads but that has to be done!  There has to be ways to avoid undergrounding the Cultural Centre Station?  Pedestrianise Melbourne Street and make it Transit Only!

[aldonius]

Most of the billion is surely going on undergrounding CC.

If BCC are willing to pay for that I say let them. Means less cash in their budget for roads.

[SteelPan]

A few dot points:

1) Uniquely "Brissy" it's an existing BUS way system, with just bigger buses on it, pretending to be a "Metro".

2) It's the underground [bus], that comes up above ground, to go over an inner city bridge, to go back underground - splash a bit more cash - underground it all the way. [Newman's BAT tunnel got this bit right].

3) IT does not serve a single new section of Brisbane for improved public transit - where are the metro lines to OTHER parts of "Brissy"?

It's a BUS...pretending to be a "Metro".

Another "Brissy" shambles....LOOK at Sydney and Melbourne, at what their DOING with rail below ground........not bigger buses called, for some weird reason, a "Metro"!!!!

What "Brissy" could do, is turn over the existing Busway along the side of the SE Freeway into a higher-speed rail corridor, to take trains straight out of CRR and down that corridor toward Beenleigh - smarter people than I can give you the higher-speed corridor from around the end of existing busway on to Beenleigh - that would be a positive.

Our "Metro" idea is VERY worthy, but at the moment we're being sold a "Brissy Special"!

[#Metro]

I support the bus proposal for the following reasons:

- It is capable of reaching 30 000 pphd with the right configuration. This is the same capacity as a true metro.

- Bus technology is moving towards automation. At some point the line would become driverless buses.

So you would have both driverless buses and the same capacity as a metro in the end. That's good enough for me.

[Derwan]

3) IT does not serve a single new section of Brisbane for improved public transit - where are the metro lines to OTHER parts of "Brissy"?

The proposed solution "fixes" the current issues and allows an increase in capacity.  It's desperately needed and is something RailBOT has been calling for.  As well as increasing capacity on the "trunk" routes, not having every bus running into the city means that they can run more feeder services from OTHER parts of Brissy to the "metro" or train lines.

It's a BUS...pretending to be a "Metro".

You're right... but who cares?  It's a huge step forward for public transport in Brisbane.

Another "Brissy" shambles....LOOK at Sydney and Melbourne, at what their DOING with rail below ground........not bigger buses called, for some weird reason, a "Metro"!!!!

Brisbane isn't Sydney or Melbourne.  It has nowhere near the population of either of those cities.  With CRR being the current major infrastructure project, there's no way we'd get funding for a proper metro... and with the proposed changes to the busway (along with CRR), we don't need a proper metro YET.

[Arnz]

A few dot points:

1) Uniquely "Brissy" it's an existing BUS way system, with just bigger buses on it, pretending to be a "Metro".

So same as the original "Metro" proposal then?  The original proposal was also glorified bus on wheels with a third rail pantograph pretending to be a "Metro train" when it was really a conventional artic bus with a pantograph.

At least this proposal uses the entire SE Busway, the INB to RBWH and the UQ part of the Eastern Busway rather than the original proposal which was only Herston to Woollongabba.

[#Metro]

Brisbane isn't Sydney or Melbourne.  It has nowhere near the population of either of those cities.  With CRR being the current major infrastructure project, there's no way we'd get funding for a proper metro... and with the proposed changes to the busway (along with CRR), we don't need a proper metro YET.

If the end result has the same capacity, then there is no advantage to having a "real" steel-on-wheel metro. Other than bragging rights and aesthetics.

Curiously, these buses will mean that more "outsiders" will start using the BCC superbuses. Eventually TransLink may decide that it is not worth running buses from Logan etc into the Brisbane CBD when they can be terminated and transferred at Eight Mile Plains.

This will cause an existential problem for Brisbane City Council. They will be a bus provider carrying a significant proportion of "foreign" LGA passengers on their buses, and paying subsidies for it too.

This will also be true for services that terminate at Carindale. More and more people from outside the BCC boundary will want to use the superbus system.

A question for Quirk and Schrinner to respond to I think.

[SurfRail]

I support the bus proposal for the following reasons:

- It is capable of reaching 30 000 pphd with the right configuration. This is the same capacity as a true metro.

That is a fantasy.  The only BRT system that operates in that range is the TransMilenio, which is completely irrelevant in our context due to the difference in labour costs and the sunk cost of the infrastructure.

Automation or not, running that many vehicles is expensive and it magnifies the risk of disruption immeasurably.  Systems like the TransMilenio also have enormous problems with passenger flow as the stations cannot be cleared quickly enough.

If you need that many passengers carried, you whack in a railway.  That is why nobody else is pursuing this model - anywhere in the world.

[#Metro]

That is a fantasy.  The only BRT system that operates in that range is the TransMilenio, which is completely irrelevant in our context due to the difference in labour costs and the sunk cost of the infrastructure.

Automation or not, running that many vehicles is expensive and it magnifies the risk of disruption immeasurably.  Systems like the TransMilenio also have enormous problems with passenger flow as the stations cannot be cleared quickly enough.

If you need that many passengers carried, you whack in a railway.  That is why nobody else is pursuing this model - anywhere in the world.

The SE Busway carries about 15 000 pphd (theoretical) in the AM Peak

The standard bus (65 seat) equivalent is thus 15 000 / 65 = 230 buses/hour.

An hour has 60 min x 60 sec = 3600 seconds.

Therefore this is 3600 sec / 230 buses = 15.65 seconds between buses

I can confirm this figure using public information:


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/busway-faces-gridlock/news-story/916a1179686e39122e5946a8ad9fb715

In peak hour, the Cultural Centre stop has 179 buses an hour, or a bus every 20 seconds.

At the busiest point of the busway, north of Woolloongabba, 294 inbound buses pass in the peak hour. That is a bus every 12 seconds.

The report argues that if measures are not taken, the busway will soon experience traffic jams like normal roads.

So we know that running buses every 60 seconds or every 30 seconds is entirely possible.

Autotram Extra Grand carries 256 passengers, this is almost 4x what a standard bus carries.



If 230 drivers are required in the AM peak (estimate) then to carry the same amount using a 256 seat bus

is 59 bus drivers. A significant increase in labour productivity just by using larger vehicles.



If 59 drivers are required for 15 000 pphd, then double this is required for 30 000 pphd.

59 x 2 = 118 drivers. (Assuming it takes roughly an hour to do the full circuit and return to the origin to do another run)


So to reach metro capacity with larger buses, we would still be using less drivers than today. Buses every 30 seconds - we already run buses more frequently than this.

And in any case, if bus technology advances to the point that the bus is autonomous, the labour cost argument becomes invalid.

The crowded platforms argument is true whatever the vehicle used. It doesn't depend on what kind of tyre the vehicle uses.

Conclusion:

I am confident that 30 000 pphd is possible to achieve given the proper design and vehicles, and no rail will ever need to be laid if this option is taken. Half the services might continue to use Captain Cook Bridge if desired, giving services every minute on the SE busway through Cultural Centre.

[SurfRail]

I don't have time to address your latest Gish Gallop, suffice to say it is utterly bonkers.

[ozbob]

Brisbane City Council has suggested they can get to 22K pphpd.  I would say that would be the limit effectively.  More likely sustainable to around 20K pphpd,  The busway does move up to 18K pphpd at present but I doubt if that is really sustainable.  I am sure they have used the 18K pphpd to work out the new max capacity.  It might be possible to get up to 22K pphpd for short periods but sustained I reckon 20K pphpd is more realistic.  CRR could also deliver between 24K - 30K pphpd as well.  So the total sum game is very positive.

[verbatim9]

Prototype for the Busway? BCC Metro Bus

[ozbob]

^

> https://www.behance.net/gallery/23610933/Karsan-hBRT-Concept

" Karsan hBRT is a 28m metrobus proposal for main transit lines and has a ultra high passenger capacity. It's double-articulated, bi-directionally operable, environmentally friendly with hybrid electric power system. "



Could well end up looking like these.

[verbatim9]

^

> https://www.behance.net/gallery/23610933/Karsan-hBRT-Concept

" Karsan hBRT is a 28m metrobus proposal for main transit lines and has a ultra high passenger capacity. It's double-articulated, bi-directionally operable, environmentally friendly with hybrid electric power system. "



Could well end up looking like these.

Looks good. Wonder if they will have a couple of Colours for the two routes? All Yellow seems like a colour to choose. Navy Blue for the other route? As Light Blue and Maroon used for Glyder.

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Opinion: Brisbane Metro should go all the way to Springfield

DID The Simpsons conman Lyle Lanley perform his song-and-dance routine at City Hall recently? Because Lord Mayor Graham Quirk's Brisbane Metro plan sure has synergies with Springfield's monorail.

Sydney, Melbourne, Perth and Canberra all have some type of inner-city rail plan.

Why shouldn't we? In fact, why shouldn't we have two?

We've already got Cross River Rail, or a plan at least.

Some might bemoan the drawing of lines on maps for a decade. Tell that to Redcliffe residents who waited a century for their rail link but haven't taken to actually travelling on it.

Now we have Brisbane Metro, or more accurately Brisbane Metro Mark II.

The first iteration proved problematic given those folk from the big end of George Street already had plans for a key station site. That was a wee bit embarrassing.

We have a new version though and isn't it impressive?

That clever Cr Quirk has also cut the costs.

t stretches from Herston to Eight Mile Plans. What a subway system it will be!

Except when you realise the council just commandeered busways built years ago.

That's right, Metro Mark II, despite all the song and dance at last year's council election, just runs along the existing busway and stops at existing stations.

At least it's rail right? Smooth, efficient rail and maybe still with a bit of that melodic rickety rickety sound?

Unfortunately, no.

Brisbane Metro is buses. Big buses. We've already got bendy buses. Just imagine a bendy bendy bus with a bit tacked onto the end.

Not that you can tell from the artist impression spruiked by Cr Quirk and his trusty sidekick Adrian Schrinner.

Station platforms in the pictures conveniently obscure the wheels of the bendy bendy buses. Although they do otherwise look like light rail.

In one calamitous interview, Schrinner harrumphed that it "wasn't important" what they were and while "some people call it a bus" they would actually be "purpose-designed Metro vehicles".

Maybe asking Schrinner whether you'd need a bus or train licence to get behind the wheel would have elicited an answer.

Yet everyone is nodding in unison about the marvel that is Metro. Transport Minister Jackie Trad is playing nice because she wants federal cash for Cross River Rail.

Train-loving Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull is on board although it's unclear whether he knows he'll be riding a bendy bendy bus at the opening.

So it seems it's full steam ahead for Cr Quirk's plan, which is a pun, of course, given buses don't have boilers.

But if the conductor on Metro's maiden voyage has a name tag which reads Homer, it might be best to catch the train.

[ozbob]

^

My blog comment to this article ...

Bi-articulated buses it is.  Brisbane has a good busway system makes sense to utilise it and improve the capacity.  Extensions for example to Carindale and Chermside via transit ways, will be achieved in time.

Bi-artics, particularly electric make a lot of sense now.  The answers are not always billions of dollars and massive amounts of concrete.

In time after Cross River Rail and Metro #2 Brisbane will probably need a proper metro (heavy rail, automated) that is providing the whole joint is not under water!  Do some basic research and you will find that TMR has a general plan for this.  First section West <> East , CRR and Metro #2 will give significant capacity increase north <> south, makes sense then to look at E<>W.

[ozbob]

You have to laugh hey!  We constantly pointed out that the metro as originally proposed was never going to happen, this was despite the MSM (particularly the Couriermail ) swallowing hook line and sinker the spin from Team Quirk.  Team Harding et al failed rather spectacularly in not destroying it.  We didn't.

I infact did advise Team Harding that they should not go with light rail but promote exactly the thing that metro #2 has morphed too.

As I have said before, Team Quirk et al are smart politicians, the media is often pretty dumb too. 

The above opinion piece is a just another sign of it.

You do have to worry about brisBANE hey?   

[ozbob]

[verbatim9]

^^They look good. What is the top safe speed for those Metro Buses? 80Kph?

[ozbob]

^^They look good. What is the top safe speed for those Metro Buses? 80Kph?

Yes, 80Kph probably top, more likely max speed of 60-70 Kph for most runs where permitted. 

Busway speed limits do vary a bit.  I recall that some parts of SEB have 90km/h limit but generally a lot less than that.

Busway speed limits > http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3132.0

[Marshal]

I know the busway is suppose to be limited to 90 Kph, but when I sit on those buses watching us constantly overtake traffic on a non-congested pacific motorway in the middle of the day, I do wonder what speed they are actually doing....

[Otto]

I know the busway is suppose to be limited to 90 Kph, but when I sit on those buses watching us constantly overtake traffic on a non-congested pacific motorway in the middle of the day, I do wonder what speed they are actually doing....

All BT ( TfB ) buses are speed limited at 90 km/h. They can't go any faster. However, Logan City buses, who knows !!! 

[James]

I know the busway is suppose to be limited to 90 Kph, but when I sit on those buses watching us constantly overtake traffic on a non-congested pacific motorway in the middle of the day, I do wonder what speed they are actually doing....

Simple answer - while the freeway has a limit 10km/h higher than the busway, this is the speed *limit*. Car drivers will generally drive below the limit, because of speed cameras, passenger comfort and behavioural factors - particularly in the left lane. Add in random braking, 'ghost' traffic jams and the inability of Brisbane drivers to merge, you can easily have an average speed 5-10km/h below the limit.

By comparison, there are no speed cameras on the SEB and rarely any cars in front to stop the driver going as fast as they wish, aside from the 90km/h limit. Hence, the bus zooms along. I'd just like to say though - I've only ever experienced the opposite off-peak. You're always going at a similar speed to the cars, but never faster than them.

[ozbob]

Couriermail Quest --> Councillor cagey over what vehicles will make up Brisbane Metro

BRISBANE City Council has again insisted its plan for the Brisbane Metro is not just a greenlight for big buses.

In the council's meeting, Deputy Mayor and Public and Active Transport Committee chairman Adrian Schrinner answered Cr Andrew Wines' question about what makes a Metro.

"That is the million dollar question," Cr Shcrinner said.

"If you look around the world, let's forget about what's happening right now in Brisbane, and look at what cities ... use the term metro, you will find a massively diverse range of vehicles."

His words were met with derision from opposition councillors, who called out Brisbane Metro was just "banana buses".

Cr Schrinner said worldwide there were three key aspects to a metro system: high frequency services, significant carrying capacity, and the segregation of the system from other vehicles.

Councillor Shayne Sutton (Morningside) interjected she was concerned Cr Schrinner was misleading the council chamber with his definitions, as he had previously defined a metro as having a rail.

Escape and #FleeQLD if you can ...

[#Metro]

It is called the 'bait and switch' SCAM.

What do you expect from a party coasting on being in office since 2004 and deputy mayor that thinks he is on par with Adele?

Some buses do have rail like TransLohr or O-bahn guided systems, and I believe the system will be capable of 30 000 pphd (120 buses/hour x 256 passengers/bus) so in those terms it is sound.

But yes, it was a mistruth and votebait.

Cr Schrinner said worldwide there were three key aspects to a metro system: high frequency services, significant carrying capacity, and the segregation of the system from other vehicles.